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Thread: Caracal vs Scorpion: A letter to Mr. Wilhelm Bubits

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    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    Caracal vs Scorpion: A letter to Mr. Wilhelm Bubits

    Dear Mr. Wilhelm Bubits

    It is with great sorrow that I share this news with you. today, I saw a gruesome event where a Caracal-C was brutalized by a CZ-999 Scorpion. aah! the horror, the agony, the torment and the mostrosity that was unleashed on the poor Caracal by the savage Scorpion.

    First: five rounds were fired with CZ-999 Scorpion at 15 yards and with 9mm Polytech rounds (Chinese white box).

    Here is the video:


    Here is the Scorpion's group:
    Last edited by 12GAUGE; 29-04-2012 at 04:21 AM.
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

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    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    Second: five rounds were fired with Caracal-C at 15 yards and with 9mm Polytech rounds (Chinese white box).

    Here is the video:


    This is what Caracal's group looked like:


    As you can see, the groups with the CZ-999 are far better when compared to the group made by the Caracal. I know, one can always argue that CZ-999 has a slightly longer barrel therefore it must have some advantage in the accuracy department. however I must insist that the advantage is mitigated by the longer sighting radius of the Caracal. plus, if barrel length is directly proportional to accuracy then CZ-Rami should be offer least accuracy. I am sure you know thats not the case.
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

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    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    Third: we thought may be standard accuracy tests are not relevant here. so we decided to do a rapid fire drill. five rounds were fired with Scorpion then five rounds were fired with Caracal.

    Here is the video:


    as you can see from the video, scorpion performed flawlessly whereas Caracal miss fired one round again. it was a light primer strike. I wonder why it did that. when we used the same round in CZ-999 Scorpion it went bang without a hiccup.

    Scorpion's group:


    Caracal's group:


    again you can see that Scorpion continues to impress with its ability to print better groups than a Caracal. I wonder if its the heavier bulk of the scorpion that aided it in achieving that. but what happened to lower bore axis of the caracal? Don't you think it should have helped by directing the recoil forces straight into the hand of the shooter. lowering felt recoil and bringing the caracal back on target quicker. significantly increasing the second shot accuracy in the process. what happened?

    if you look at the videos carefully, you'll find that Ameer Sb. our respected member is experiencing greater recoil with caracal. may be this particular Caracal was not supplied with the advertised "extremely low" bore axis.

    Anyways, just wanted to share this bad news with you in hope that you'll find time to explain what happened. I hope that this was an isolated incident rather than a norm. Don't want to see Caracals getting their A$$es whooped them by Scorpions every time.

    Regards.
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

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    Reply from bubits

    I m extremely sorry to design this weapon. Lolz just kidding.

    Man you are crazy and proved the scorpion BICHHOO.

    Just send me your account details, i will deposit the amount for new scorpion as a gift by me.

    Done done done. I will buy this weapon,
    I m searching for a pistol under 70 k. This suits me well.

    Best of luck.
    “The best that we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed”. ((Alexander))

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    Lord of War bbiillaall's Avatar
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    @ 12G bro, sir g tussi great ho, tuhfa qabool karo.

    This is called practically proven equatition.

    Great show and really expected result.

    Congrats to Bicho for winning the battle with honour.
    It is always man behind the machine

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    Enthusiast UMAR BUTT's Avatar
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    @ 12 GAUGE :-)

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    Member Extraordinaire ajmal virk's Avatar
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    i have a question can a person give same perfomance with different handguns? May be you are good with Scorpion and not as good with Carcel possibly somone else may perfom better with Carcel but not with Scorpion.

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    PakGuns Elite! AK47's Avatar
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    I know, one can always argue that CZ-999 has a slightly longer barrel therefore it must have some advantage in the accuracy department.

    If barrel length is directly proportional to accuracy then CZ-Rami should be offer least accuracy. I am sure you know thats not the case.
    First of all thanks for a great share, nice to see you guys active over here.

    CZ 999 has always proved a remarkable weapon with respect to accuracy. There's nothing new here or any cause of new jubilation.

    I personally observed this on using a CZ 999 in Haripur, belonging to brother of Syed Adeel bro and I was amazed at my own shots in rapid fire, making almost a scar like group, as if cut out with a razor.

    Now to barrel lengths. Course, it affects. As far as CZ Rami is concerned, it's CZ's unique twist rate playing the effect, as I recall some senior respectable's comments somewhere in our threads. (Don't hang me up on this, but there's something on these lines deduced.)

    Finally, though I really enjoyed this event of yours, I'm humbly of the opinion that we're comparing apples to oranges.

    1.st of all the trigger mechanism. Results would have been more comparable if CZ 999 - in the the slow fire mode - had been fired with a half-cocked trigger (Don't know if this is possible with a CZ 999). That would have brought it to the 1.5X action, roughly, like the Caracal's 4 lbs trigger.

    2.nd. The weight of the handgun. I believe we have a difference of at least 200 grams.

    3.rd. As mentioned, the barrel lenghts. (I hope next comparison would be vs a Baby Glock, to rule out the relevancy of barrel lenghts with respect to accuracy, lolz)

    4.th. Steel vs Polymer.

    5.th. Combat weapon vs CC SD weapon. One is an adopted weapon in use by Serb forces, other is meant for concealed carry SD/Duty use.

    You can't carry a heavy, bulky, full sized forces weapon like the CZ 999 for your daily SD carry with any any ease, especially not with our national attire, so hence these guns serve completely different purposes.

    Therefore, as you can see, the only common thing between these two guns happens to be that they were GUNS. Just like apples and oranges are FRUITS, lolz!

    As far as Caracal's shots are concerned, it seems Ameer bro needs some tuning in to the Safe Action trigger pull, as I'm sure he's more used to DA/SA handguns. Shots are landing on the upward scale. Still, the shots are enough to eliminate any threat from 15 mtrs with a CC weapon. The shots from the CZ 999 are outright awesome.

    As regards the 2 misfires, well, with my Sarsilamaz Kilinc 2000 L, this ammo (Polytech-Chinese blue box) gave me a couple of misfires too, but were shot out on 2.nd attempt. I agree therefore with 12G bro's assertion that it's an isolated incident, till Ameer bro reports more on the use of other ammo.

    The lower bore axis is not supposed to be the solution to all the world's problems.

    Thanks again for a wonderful share.


    Regards.
    Last edited by AK47; 29-04-2012 at 09:24 AM.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage, than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

    "Take your time and deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking, and go in. "

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    PakGuns Elite! Ameer's Avatar
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    Thank you 12Gauge for taking the time out yesterday, despite of your guests waiting there in Islamabad. Total respect to the Scorpion at the range especially during the rapid fire. It was a friendly shoot with Chinese 9mm bullets (white box).

    There is something i need to say in favor of Caracal. It was my very first experience with a Safe Action Trigger, and my Caracal-C was about to be cherry popped but on the other hand the CZ-999 has already been fired for 50 rounds. It shouldn't be the difference though.

    later alone when i was calculating and firing my Caracal-C, i started taking control on the gun and Trigger and hence the results were totally different. Just check it for ur-self.



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    The one on the your left is my first Target shot, the gun was still jumping in my hand but i was recovering with every shot and hence had hit the 10.

    On the Right Target i was getting more accurate than precise, hitting around the central point.

    So, no Disrespect to Caracal-C which was very new to me and it was shooter rather than the Gun BUT BUT Total respect to CZ-999 at that moment and always.
    Remember the first rule of gunfighting ... have a gun.

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    PakGuns Elite! AK47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameer View Post
    Thank you 12Gauge for taking the time out yesterday, despite of your guests waiting there in Islamabad. Total respect to the Scorpion at the range especially during the rapid fire. It was a friendly shoot with Chinese 9mm bullets (white box).

    There is something i need to say in favor of Caracal. It was my very first experience with a Safe Action Trigger, and my Caracal-C was about to be cherry popped but on the other hand the CZ-999 has already been fired for 50 rounds. It shouldn't be the difference though.

    later alone when i was calculating and firing my Caracal-C, i started taking control on the gun and Trigger and hence the results were totally different. Just check it for ur-self.



    Name:  DSC03236.JPG
Views: 2543
Size:  92.7 KB



    The one on the your left is my first Target shot, the gun was still jumping in my hand but i was recovering with every shot and hence had hit the 10.

    On the Right Target i was getting more accurate than precise, hitting around the central point.


    So, no Disrespect to Caracal-C which was very new to me and it was shooter rather than the Gun BUT BUT Total respect to CZ-999 at that moment and always.
    Great second attempt Ameer bro, I'm amazed to see how quickly you started recovering with the Caracal shot by shot.

    As for the CZ 999, I again agree, it's a battle field handgun, commanding respect, no doubts.


    Regards.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage, than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

    "Take your time and deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking, and go in. "

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    Member Extraordinaire s.cheema's Avatar
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    nice shooting
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    Senior Moderator Denovo87's Avatar
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    Thanks 12g bro for another very objective write up & well demonstrated test with videos, I really am impressed & convinced that Bichoo is a true Sig clone

    Just to clarify one point raised by AK bro on CZ999 being single action and Caracal 1.5 action; an SA/DA shot either from fully decoked or half cocked position it always be a double action as sear n hammer engagement/disengagement will be same in both cases.

    I totally agree with you AK bro on comparing apples to apples; Glock 19 will be a perfect gun to compare with Caracal C & a G17 with Caracal F.
    Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others.

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    Senior Member Huzaifa's Avatar
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    @ 12GAUGE: Great writeup & comparison. Thanks
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    Supreme Member Topak's Avatar
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    good write up. once again bichoo stings !
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    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    First of all thanks for a great share, nice to see you guys active over here.

    CZ 999 has always proved a remarkable weapon with respect to accuracy. There's nothing new here or any cause of new jubilation.

    I personally observed this on using a CZ 999 in Haripur, belonging to brother of Syed Adeel bro and I was amazed at my own shots in rapid fire, making almost a scar like group, as if cut out with a razor.
    with no jubilation of any kind... I guess... you already knew about the outcome? lols! I am glad that you have started to see things my way. I am sure it is only logical that Caracal should lose against a handgun half its price............. OR ...... a point to ponder.....is it the Caracal which over priced?

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    Now to barrel lengths. Course, it affects. As far as CZ Rami is concerned, it's CZ's unique twist rate playing the effect, as I recall some senior respectable's comments somewhere in our threads. (Don't hang me up on this, but there's something on these lines deduced.)
    Kindly search for CZ-999 Scorpion's twist rate. you will be surprised. now coming back to the twist rate of Rami. Bro! I hardly think that a slightly faster twist rate would matter much at 15 yards and lighter 115gr 9mm bullets as faster twist rates are meant to stabilize heavier (124 and above) rounds at greater distances.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    Finally, though I really enjoyed this event of yours, I'm humbly of the opinion that we're comparing apples to oranges.
    Bro, I once heard someone saying "losers wine about the competition, winners go home with the prom queen". hahahahahhahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    2.nd. The weight of the handgun. I believe we have a difference of at least 200 grams.
    hey! guess what? you pay twice as much money for an extremely low bore axis (Caracal) so I guess...... one really should complain about the weight advantage cause caracal is blessed with "extremely low bore axis" advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    3.rd. As mentioned, the barrel lenghts. (I hope next comparison would be vs a Baby Glock, to rule out the relevancy of barrel lenghts with respect to accuracy, lolz)
    Bro, they things are going... I am sure you can find a way to call such a match "comparing apples to oranges" as well. lols!

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    5.th. Combat weapon vs CC SD weapon. One is an adopted weapon in use by Serb forces, other is meant for concealed carry SD/Duty use.
    and....what is a duty use? if not..... the use employed by Serb forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    The shots from the CZ 999 are outright awesome.
    check this out bro: you have to pay half as much money to get this "outright awesome" group. lols!

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    As regards the 2 misfires, well, with my Sarsilamaz Kilinc 2000 L, this ammo (Polytech-Chinese blue box) gave me a couple of misfires too, but were shot out on
    first: now you are saying two thing. either CARACAL is of the level of Kilinc 2000 L which is half its price or CARACAL is double over priced. otherwise I dont see a reason why you would compare it to handgun which doesnt even fall in its price range.

    Second: kilinc 2000 L is not advertised as "Glock-like" reliable handgun. on the other hand, CARACAL users routinely compare it with Glock. do you know that one of the main features for glock is "hell and back" reliability?

    Third: why compare it with Kilinc 2000 L? where is your "apples to oranges" philosophy now?

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    The lower bore axis is not supposed to be the solution to all the world's problems.
    then why time and again you have gone through to trouble of mentioning it super low bore axis? seriously! if ain't that important then why mention it in the first place? kindly go through all your previous threads, there must be something special about it otherwise why would you make it a point to mention it.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
    Thanks again for a wonderful share.
    you are most welcome bro. as far as I am concerned. I am not happy cause CARACAL lost a SCORPION. I am happy that a gun half its price can easily kick CARACAL's butt.

    now that makes me wonder: do we really have to pay twice as much for a Caracal only to be manhandled by a Scorpion which was not designed by Wilhelm Bubits. lols!

    Regards.
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

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    Member Extraordinaire Birdshooter007's Avatar
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    @12G

    Nice comparison - and ^

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    I am sure ameer is not familiar with Safe action trigger as this what I shot from 10m.

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    Lord of War Mitho's Avatar
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    I have owned a cz999 in past.now i have a caracal c.
    Cz999 in its own right is a fine pistol.but there is no comparasion between the two.
    Caracal c is meant for conceal carry while cz999 is surely not a cc weapon.
    Thing is acuracy beyond 10 meters for cc weapon is secondary.
    a cc weapon should be light esay to carry and relaiable.which caracal c is.
    What good is a accurate pistol is if its lying in my bedroom rather holstered on my belt???????????
    For cc use caracal is a fine pistol only superseeded by rami in Pakistani market.

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    PakGuns Elite! AK47's Avatar
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    I wonder why in the world all these discussions here on Pakguns end up with a friendly fist-fight between respected 12G bro and myself! Lolz!

    Now, is this gonna be a full 15 rounder, or should I do it off with a jab to the left and a single upper cut in round 2? Hahahahaha! You know tall men are very prone to a cut from below, hahahaha!

    Anyhow, jokes aside, I'll spare my crucial weapon for another occasion, so let's wink off from here and enjoy the shots by both outclass weapons from each segment.

    Let me just be brief with a couple of comments, however. I agree fully with Mitho bro that with SD CC weapons, you do compromise a bit of accuracy for the better concealment, carry ease. Rest is customization to the Safe Action trigger, which Ameer bro proved well in his second shoot.

    I'm also of the opinion (Don't hang me up, but it's just my feeling) that 12G bro managed talking Ameer bro into the 15 mtrs range, knowing well the CZ's benefit here. Call it kind of "match fixing", hahahaha! Caracal as SD weapon and for break-in should have been used from 10 mtrs, ideally.

    Let me also just state that economy is not all when choosing a handgun. 12G bro is gradually moving more towards being an economist than a gunner when he feels that target prints and accuracy should be directly proportional to amount invested. There are other considerations involved when selecting a handgun. Hence, I deem the mention of Sarsilmaz Kilin, etc, by 12G bro as totally irrelevant here. I was merely passing on comments with respect to the Chinese ammo.

    As for the lower bore axis, well, on the overall plane, it may contribute only to 5-10% less recoil, better accuracy, and nobody ever said it was cutting edge technology.

    Finally, let me just use the opportunity to please respected 12G bro, that I've always liked the CZ 999 as a rugged, tough, durable and wonderful weapon in the budget range, but have issues with it's carry ease and bulk grip. Maybe if he preached a bit less about it being the worlds finest handgun and took off his excessive "rowdiness" in getting it involved in every fight and on every avenue, I might one day consider one for the glove box of my car, hahahaha!



    Regards.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage, than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

    "Take your time and deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking, and go in. "

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