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View Full Version : Is 1911 a dangerous gun to carry???



Imad
28-04-2012, 07:22 PM
Hi all,
Its no dout that the 1911 design has come through ages and has supassed the test of time. But just thought that may be "1911 is not a safe gun".
1. U have to carry it cocked and locked.
2. If the hammer is down, the slide safety cannot be on,
3. The hammer may slip and fire the gun while trying to release the hammer.

Looking for all comments and seniors inputs.

Faisji
28-04-2012, 07:31 PM
Hi all,
Its no dout that the 1911 design has come through ages and has supassed the test of time. But just thought that may be "1911 is not a safe gun".
1. U have to carry it cocked and locked.
That is the only way to carry it for all practical purpose.If a person is sufficiently trained with firearms and 1911 in particular then they will have no problem carrying it like that

2. If the hammer is down, the slide safety cannot be on,
if the hammer is down then there shouldn't be a bullet in te chamber hence you don't need the safety ON.As stated in answer to Q1

3. The hammer may slip and fire the gun while trying to release the hammer.
Once again the way the gun should be carried when chambered is cocked and locked not wit any hammer manipulation via trigger.The hammer sear on a out of box 1911 is very weak and is not to be considered as a safety.

Imad
28-04-2012, 07:40 PM
If one wants to carry the gun "bullet in chamber and hammer down" just for enhanced safety, it is virtually negated in 1911 due to safety off in this case. Is this deliberately done or a limitation of 1911 design?

Faisji
28-04-2012, 07:56 PM
If one wants to carry the gun "bullet in chamber and hammer down" just for enhanced safety, it is virtually negated in 1911 due to safety off in this case. Is this deliberately done or a limitation of 1911 design?

Since it is a SA handgun the safety on hammer down would have only made it even harder to fire the gun quickly.That mode of carry was never part of the official manual of arms for the M1911(A1). The military (USA) prescribed either hammer down on an empty chamber (Condition 3), or loaded, cocked and locked (Condition 1). Carrying over a live round with hammer on half cock bypasses TWO safeties, since there isn't another hammer safety and the thumb safety can't be activated when the hammer is on half cock.

The 'half-cocked' position of the hammer on the 1911(and ANY other auto-loader) is there for ONE purpose ONLY, to catch the hammer and prevent it from discharging the chambered cartridge in case the hammer slips.It is not meant for extended use.

AK47
28-04-2012, 08:01 PM
If one wants to carry the gun "bullet in chamber and hammer down" just for enhanced safety, it is virtually negated in 1911 due to safety off in this case. Is this deliberately done or a limitation of 1911 design?

More than anything negated in the design, your own purpose and manner of carrying the handgun negates any practical use. 1.st of all, why would you like to have safety on, hammer down, round in chamber? Can your gun fire from hammer down position?

2.nd, if you're not comfortable with a round in the chamber, you can always carry it the traditional way, uncocked/unchambered. But when there's a round inside the chamber of a 1911, it's ideal carry mode is cocked n' locked.

In the absence of a decocking option, one has to be very careful with the high sprung hammer, short travel trigger of a 1911, when making the hammer come down with resistance force.

I'd say, the 1911 handgun is probably the safest weapon to be carried loaded chamber, as long as the carrier is proficient with guns. Without proficiency, no gun should be carried at all for paper weight.


Regards.

Muhammad m
28-04-2012, 08:23 PM
not at all a dangerous weapon.

Most new handguns have a fire pin block hence cocked and locked is no issue.

Imad
28-04-2012, 08:34 PM
Can u please explain about it a little more. How it works

Imad
28-04-2012, 08:37 PM
Thanks for all the clarifications. Please give 1 more.. " any steps one should take care while decocking the hammer to avoid slipping and firing accidentally."

Denovo87
28-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Thanks for all the clarifications. Please give 1 more.. " any steps one should take care while decocking the hammer to avoid slipping and firing accidentally."

Why would one need to decock a single action handgun?

Skeeter60
29-04-2012, 06:50 PM
No Not Possible. In the series 80 pistols there is an additional safety in the form of a firing pin block which does not allow the firing pin to move forward unless the trigger is also pulled.
The earlier models are also safe as the firing pin is inertial firing and just because of a blow on the hammer or slippage of hammer from half cock can not fire a round. The half cock itself is a safety device to dis allow the hammer from moving forward when the trigger is not pulled and the hammer is not all the way down to start with.
This pistol has been around for 101 years and almost all gun lovers have one and there has been not a single AD ( Accidental Discharge ) attributable to the old John Moses Brownings gun design.

Imad
29-04-2012, 07:18 PM
Thanks for your precious inputs... Appreciate your guidance

Trigger_happy78
29-04-2012, 11:20 PM
I also don't think a 1911 is a dangerous gun, If the user knows how to handle a weapon properly. Otherwise all weapons are dangerous.

Imad
30-04-2012, 12:09 AM
actually i think the gun may be safe but the concept 'cocked and locked" is dangerous (specially for those who are a bit safety concious...like me:smile:)... one needs to get used to carrying a gun in such a state.
if you are in a environment where u are sure to use the gun then you would like to carry the gun cocked and locked, but as an everyday carry gun or HD gun one gets a little uncomfortable seeing the hammer up and ready to fire all the time with a slight trigger pull...

however, the gun was designed by browning as side arm in war siruation so the total concept was different.

AK47
30-04-2012, 08:23 AM
One gets a little uncomfortable seeing the hammer up and ready to fire all the time with a slight trigger pull...

however, the gun was designed by browning as side arm in war siruation so the total concept was different.

1.st of all, it's not just a slight pull that will make your gun fire. This is the beauty of the 1911's grip safety, which kind of cannot get depressed without a solid hold on the gun and with an intent of fire. Hence, you can have 2 safeties engaged all the time, the manual safety and the grip safety, can't really be any safer.

If your worry is other hands fingering around your handgun than your own, well, in that case, nothing can be safe enough.

Finally, on your last notion about war-times, it's my impression that we are all kind of "soldiers" nowadays and living with wars in and around every street and corner, 2-4-7. It will worsen, sadly, it's bound to.


Regards.

gunenthusiast
30-04-2012, 10:48 AM
Interesting discussion. As explained in detail by senior members one need to be proficient in use of a gun before carrying it.This is also true of 1911 platform.

black arrow
30-04-2012, 03:04 PM
Interesting discussion. As explained in detail by senior members one need to be proficient in use of a gun before carrying it.This is also true of 1911 platform.
No wonder a friend does not like Taurus series, for the same reasons. Nothing bad about the gun itself, just personal preferences...

cyanide.dipped
30-04-2012, 06:09 PM
the seniors have sufficiently summed up the topic. to clarify, 1911 platform is probably not recommended as your first ever hand gun that you are gonna carry, unless you practice with it and become comfortable with condition 1. like said by Mr. Skeeter and Mr. Ak, its pretty safe. no need to get paranoid about a bullet in chamber and hammer cocked. it wont shoot itself unless u pull the trigger. and so when u r carryin' a 1911, the first need u need to practice with is holstering and unholstering the gun efficiently.

there has been an age old debate about this design on the internet as well as these forums. personally, i think it is the fastest platform available to professionals today. Massad Ayoob, Travis Haley, Chris Costa are few names of the gun industry leaders that come to mind who always say that they goto the customized 1911 platform when facing deadly situations. please note: fast! and with speed comes risks. i hope u do understand the balance between speed and efficiency. so to sum up, if u take it slow, practice with it for quite some while, you can up ur ante and get right to carrying it without any dangers.

regards,
CD.

TRX
01-09-2012, 04:58 PM
The design of the Model of 1911 was specified by the United States Army over a hundred years ago. Browning and Colt had produced pistols in various designs for the civilian market. The Army's requirements were mostly driven by its cavalry users. The design the Army liked was the Model 1905 Colt, which didn't have a safety at all. Browning figured if you wanted to shoot, you just pulled the hammer back and you were ready. Lower it with your thumb if you changed your mind.

The Army first wanted Browning to add the grip safety, which was already a feature on some European guns. They figured if a soldier sitting on a horse dropped the gun, it would be a good idea. Then they decided that since a rider would have the reins in one hand and the pistol in the other, cocking the hammer one-handed might be awkward when wearing gloves or in very cold weather. So they requested the safety lever. The gun would be cocked as soon as it was loaded, and the safety set. Moving the safety lever was much easier than cocking the gun one-handed, and didn't have the "oops!" problem if the hammer slipped out from under your thumb.

Yes, the Army requested two safety features that weren't present on the civilian model.

There wasn't much of an idea of "product liability" a century ago. It was a gun, it was *supposed to* shoot. If someone were to file a lawsuit, it would have been much more likely claiming the gun *didn't* shoot when it was supposed to. A gun that didn't shoot when the trigger was pulled would obviously be defective.

The Army spent a lot of time training soldiers how to use the 1911, specifically because revolvers and most other automatics didn't have such a thing, and they didn't want some soldier getting killed because he forgot to flip the little lever while under stress.

Enigmatic Desires
02-09-2012, 11:37 PM
Thanks for the summery TRX. It has added greatly to our knowledge