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Denovo87
10-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Was talking to a senior PG member other day on 1911 pistol merits n demerits, despite all my newly developed 1911 itch he brutally operated upon the itch and almost cured it by just saying that,

1) 1911 was a brilliant hand gun of its times but it’s completely over taken by new era hand guns. It was like an auto mobile running at 80mph in 1911 when all others were running at 40mph maximum, now we have average car available is running at 100mph.
2) Most of the pistols developed in last 30-40 years no doubt are based on 1911 basics but been developed/upgraded using modern day designing techniques.
3) If there are many other lot accurate, reliable, robust pistols available these days why one should go for a pistol that was designed 100 years ago and was top of the line pistol a century ago but is not today?


So friends what you say? Is 1911 an OBSOLETE design/pistol and be kept as souvenir but not for range or SD use?

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P.S. Aalthough my friend (who else than 12gauge bro) tried his best to cure my itch but it came back with the reason “ I WANT A PT1911 JUST FOR ITS BLOODLINE ”, so Naveed bro keep the deal going :biggrin1:

AK47
10-01-2011, 08:37 PM
@Den...........I believe, I'm incompetent to reply your query, bro?

And about our respected, senior, sesky, sesky "friend", well, strange enough, I mention the 1911 monster in all my calls with him these days, but have never been discouraged by him in this regard, so perhaps he was just in a different kind of "mood" today, you should have talked about saloon's, spa's, Chinese centers instead, not to be discouraged as such, his speed there is well around 200 mph!!

In any case, you just "doubled" me up as well, so I'd ask Naveed to have the latest in Matte finish ready and reserved, soon, hopefully, lols!

Regards.

arfat110
10-01-2011, 09:24 PM
pt1911 verygood choice

ACHILLES
10-01-2011, 09:38 PM
@Denovo87
As you mentioned that senior PG member told you all the above gimmicks, thats why i am not pressing the accelerator on. But simple answer is 1911 Design of John Browning is going to rule its own class for another 100 years atleast.

12GAUGE
10-01-2011, 10:42 PM
AoA Denovo87

Bro, my intention was never to cure your itch. I was just expressing my own personal opinion since you asked me for it. I believe this country is still free (just enough) for a man to hold and express his opinion. I am truly apologetic if you found my opinion discouraging or deterring you from the pride of ownership of a fine firearm, The John Moses Browning's 1911 Handgun. By all means, go right ahead and get yourself one.

As far as my opinion is concerned, I am still of the same view. To me, (again, just my opinion) 1911 is an archaic design kept alive only by the widely recognized/accepted/practiced Principle of Americanization (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Americanization).

@AK47

Bro, I never expressed my opinion to you because you never asked one from me. only when asked/inquired I tend to express my opinion. the day you'll ask me about it, kindly allow me to assure you that I will extend you the same courtesy/sincerity I extend to all my friends.

Regards.

Denovo87
10-01-2011, 10:52 PM
Dont worry 12G bro, your expression neither cured my itch nor was taken as a TABOO ;) but food for a thought in fact, so I thought it would be a good idea to invite other gun enthusiasts to express their views/opinions on the subject ;)

AK47
11-01-2011, 12:28 AM
@12G........Bro, both Den and I just kidding with you, lols!

As for your opinion on this thing - or any other - you know, how much importance we attach to it, that's why I believe Den bro cast it for further discussion, and since I know what to expect from you on this issue, I think I better take a "bypass" this time around, lolz! Regards.

@Den.........Bro, another close friend, in the process of closing a deal these days, informed me over the phone today, that the stainless matte of the present consignment is here for the first time??? Heck, a couple of friends always used to tell, that they had a stainless in matte finish, even before this consignment!!!

Starfish
11-01-2011, 10:03 AM
LOL! how is it obsolete if millions of civilians use it every day for range, IPSC, SD, HD etc? how is it obsolete if many a special units use it as their official sidearm?
and the most important one, how is it obsolete if it is being manufactured in thousands by many many top notch firearm manufactures including some which ONLY make a 1911. oh and they are making #$%@ loads of money doing that.

its not an obsolete or archaic design. I think you meant LEGENDARY. :D

Topak
11-01-2011, 10:40 AM
1911 will never die. most expensive customized pistols being used and sold are 1911.
shooters still prefer them in compare to other top quality runners.
i have noticed just the change of cosmetics by manufacturers, nothing else.
yet no design is being produced/built which can over run this beast. 1911: the king of pistols.

ACHILLES
11-01-2011, 01:12 PM
@STARFISH
@TOPAK

+1

@12 Gauge
Bro we do respect your opinion as well. Opinions are based on some personal experiences. I am not supporting your point but would respect what you said. NO HARM BRO. You are most respected Senior Member and sweetest person. :)

Dr Zakir
11-01-2011, 10:57 PM
1911 is an excellent weapon design and u feel very comfortable while shooting the powerful .45 ammo . The only lacking was the single stack weapons which had less ammo in magzines . But with the double stack magzines carrying as much rounds as any modern day handgun . Working of 1911 is great and grip safety is good . There are lots of options and upgrades available which can make 1911 from a target grade to a purely combat gun . I have shot a GLOCK 21 and 1911 and I believe that 1911 fires better than a GLOCK

Vik
12-01-2011, 01:17 AM
I have never fired a 1911. But Its just way to cool to go obsolete. If TT is not obsolete than there is still 3o/40 years for 1911. And 1911 with slim profile, safety features and more punch is way too cool.

Silent killerr
12-01-2011, 07:15 AM
For me, 1911 design is more attractive than other modern pistols. Especially Para Ordnance 1911 style.

Winnerkd
13-01-2011, 03:02 AM
When it comes to a gun, I believe it's always personal preference and what you are best with! My father (who has shot a 1911 most of his life) will run circles around me with my Glock 17 and M&P. That said, I think this quote from a popular firearms instructor and 1911 pistolsmith here in the states sums it up pretty well.

''I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock.''

I, personally wouldn't feel disadvantaged carrying a 1911 around, but I would always prefer what I had the most practice with!

cubanchurchill
13-01-2011, 05:56 AM
I own a 1911 now, and having carried a 1911 for a while- I dont view it as obsolete- just there are better choices for a defensive weapon out there for me other than the 1911. I considered the weight of the 1911 to the fire power it brings. I can shoot the 1911 platform very well but I can also shoot the Glock21 just as well. With this in mind- I decided my main carry 45 would be the Glock21- It's a bit lighter, carries a lot more rounds {13- vs -7} and I'm just as good with the glock as I am the 1911- it was easy for me to go with the Glock over the 1911 platform. But that's just my personal opinion... :D

Denovo87
13-01-2011, 06:27 AM
I think this quote from a popular firearms instructor and 1911 pistolsmith here in the states sums it up pretty well.

''I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock.''


So that concludes; a 1911 is not an obsolete design but an old classic design, can someone (with 1911 experience) shed light on how many round life a 1911 has before it needs repair, parts replacement, fix etc ?
As in Pakistan I dont think we have liberty; to use a .45acp pistol that frequently/regularly at range & have anything else than a factory load to feed it, I am sure 99% of a .45acp gun owners would never cross 2000 round count before parting with it.

AK47
13-01-2011, 08:46 AM
There's no doubt that heavy users in the US have more of experience with the 1911 handgun, being a popular, heavily used item over there, and hence they'd be in a better position to comment on it's durability as such, yet in terms of it's service history and field use - being a winner of 4 wars and only recently shelved - I still doubt it's as fragile as being commented on!

Parts can always be changed, if required, it's the most versatile handgun around the world, with all types of interchangeable spares.

As for comparing it with the Glock 21, well, in my opinion, only similarity is the caliber itself.

Finally, I personally, would always feel more content with a solid steel item than polymer, regardless of what is being said about / experienced with the Glock polymer quality.

I believe, the barrel quality of Glock, however, may be superior to the 1911's, but then again, mostly heavy consumers would care for that only, as Denovo bro stated above, here in Pakistan, cal .45 handguns would rarely surpass a firing history of 2000 rounds, it's more of a greased/oiled, well kept collectible item, for the rarer and occasional HD use.

Also, our market situation is regretably such, that we can buy 2 pairs of the 1911 Taurus NIB, anytime we consider expending on 1 Glock 21!

Regards.

Arslan_tareen
13-01-2011, 08:56 AM
i am no where near any of the expertise the prestigious members poses here but in my little experience with my 1911 original Gov model and with two latter models (on a range) i found this certain ..."thing" in the firing and targeting on a object you deem to be threating , in simple words the kind of satisfaction and this strange feeling of confidence you get when firing and Colt `1911 or browning high power is immense and heart pounding .. so basically yes technically there are many weapons far far better then 1911 or any other classic for that regards but none match the feeling you get when firing these beasts .
@ak47 bro my advise will be why dont you come down my end some time (Haripur) we will have a laugh and you can enjoy 1911 before making the purchase ..ofcourse my old banger is not as crisp and "sexy" as the new models but it still packs a deadly punch which you might like , also it will let you know that this design is giving you the "right" vibe or not ..

AK47
13-01-2011, 09:11 AM
i am no where near any of the expertise the prestigious members poses here but in my little experience with my 1911 original Gov model and with two latter models (on a range) i found this certain ..."thing" in the firing and targeting on a object you deem to be threating , in simple words the kind of satisfaction and this strange feeling of confidence you get when firing and Colt `1911 or browning high power is immense and undesirably .. so basically yes technically there are many weapons far far better then 1911 or any other classic for that regards but none match the feeling you get when firing these beasts .
@ak47 bro my advise will be why dont you come down my end some time (Haripur) we will have a laugh and you can enjoy 1911 before making the purchase ..ofcourse my old banger is not as crisp and "sexy" as the new models but it still packs a deadly punch which you might like , also it will let you know that this design is giving you the "right" vibe or not ..

@Arsalan..........Lols! Thanks bro for the sincere and gracious offer, that would be my pleasure for sure!

"Old is Gold", never mind the sex appeal! :wink:

Deal, keep a target board ready! Was just talking to Syed Adeel yesterday and we were both remembering you. We decided that we'd see you next weekend( 8-10 days), when he'd be in the village and I'd take the drive over, since I told him, your return to UK is due, anytime soon. Regards.

Arslan_tareen
13-01-2011, 09:18 AM
thanks sir it will be my pleasure and will be awaiting dearly so will be the board and "Gold" , and also should be interesting to meet Adeel bahi will be reminding him of time when i was sitting in as a student learning and enjoying his classic and poetic English .

Dr Zakir
13-01-2011, 04:42 PM
1911 may need a break in period of 200 rounds after that they keep on going . Here commonly available is Taurus which does not need any Break in . I have fired about 400 rounds without any problem . However the paraordanance needed some adjustment

Dr Zakir
13-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Denovo BAhi are considering buying a 1911. .45 in Pakistan is available in Taurus 1911, PT145 CZ 97 older colt models . Glock 21 , HK few sig p220 . There are 24/7 but i didnot like.this particular model . When we talk about GLOCK and HK SIG costing 300 k plus then it is better to have 2 handguns in almost half the price PT145 between 50 to 60 k. Taurus 75 k to 90 k cz about 100 k . Unless one can find a great piece like ILLYAS bahi it is better to have a Taurus , which they have made as good as thier PT 99

Aquarius
13-01-2011, 11:05 PM
+1 Dr Zakir Sahib.

AK47
13-01-2011, 11:13 PM
+1 Dr. Zakir Sb! I believe Denovo bro's quest for some 1911 "chaska/chuska" is over by now, seems he has been replied overwhelmingly in favor, looking forward to seeing his decided course of action. In any case, no collection is complete, without.

Regards.

Denovo87
14-01-2011, 09:49 AM
Thanks all for valuable input, my own new itch was not the sole purpose to start this thread but to start a healthy debate ;)

p.s. AK bro, pt1911 + 2 extra mags already been acquired now its matter of 135km drive ;)

AK47
14-01-2011, 12:12 PM
Thanks all for valuable input, my own new itch was not the sole purpose to start this thread but to start a healthy debate ;)

p.s. AK bro, pt1911 + 2 extra mags already been acquired now its matter of 135km drive ;)

@Den.......I know bro, I was on the phone, while deal was going on!!!Just wanted you to break it yourself, congrats, especially on the 2 extra's!

Have a safe 135kms drive back and forth, and let's watch the new beauty soon. Happy shooting, I believe this is the second "no, no", you had to say a "yes, yes" to!! (First the CZ's, now the 1911)

Regards.

Abbas
18-01-2011, 01:18 PM
@Denovo Congratulations on buying a fantastic pistol.

The 1911 can only be classified as an obsolete design when we give up projectile based firearms altogether :)

It is and will be one of the most prolific handguns ever designed in our history and certainly one of the most versatile.

In Pakistan I think there's not a better option than the Taurus 1911 which apart from being reasonably priced will give 1911's 3/4 times it's price here a run for it's money.

The only reason the 1911 was less popular in Pakistan was due to the fact that the .45 ACP round was unavailable widely more than 5 years ago and was extremely expensive.

ACHILLES
18-01-2011, 06:48 PM
+1 to Dr. Zakir, aqua, ak, den and Abbas.

AK47
18-01-2011, 06:54 PM
@Denovo Congratulations on buying a fantastic pistol.

The 1911 can only be classified as an obsolete design when we give up projectile based firearms altogether :)

It is and will be one of the most prolific handguns ever designed in our history and certainly one of the most versatile.

In Pakistan I think there's not a better option than the Taurus 1911 which apart from being reasonably priced will give 1911's 3/4 times it's price here a run for it's money.

The only reason the 1911 was less popular in Pakistan was due to the fact that the .45 ACP round was unavailable widely more than 5 years ago and was extremely expensive.

+1 Chief! By far the best word so far on the 1911, very true.

mhrehman
22-01-2011, 11:47 AM
Denovo and 12 G bro, this is a debate that has long been discussed in various circles. I being a .45 fan, have always loved the 1911 design. I own the good old Colt 1911 as well as a few newer models. The engine example is a very good one, but I like to think it this way, regardless of the past and current speeds of vehicles, they both operate on internal combustion engines, the basic principles are the same, but over time engineers have learned many things to improve on the basic design, but we must remember that the basic design and workings of the internal combustion engines are the same, from the day of their conception to this present day.

Similarly I believe that the 1911 platform was built for the .45 auto and the design etc has live a good old 100 years to prove that it works. Yes the newer 1911's perform much better than the old 1911's, but to this day 1911 platform remains to be one of the most solid and trusted firearm platform and design, and many many law enforcement agencies around the world use it as their duty weapon. Even if you look at the new CZs, Sigs, HKs etc, they are excellent weapons all of these weapons have borrowed one thing or another if not everything from the 1911 platform, one big example is the tight slide to frame fit, second is the action system, and so on.

So INMVHO the 1911 is a pinnacle in firearms, and I don't think that it is going away anytime soon. Just my two cents. :)

coolbox18
28-01-2011, 10:27 PM
I wonder how people would react if I asked them whether straight seks was obsolete?
Sorry for the belated response.

Moeen
18-02-2011, 08:55 PM
Salam All,
I amongst some selected few lucky ones have come upon the 1911s in 9mm. Aside from the caliber the gun shoots just like the .45acp with LESS recoil. Welcome to the 1911 club, we know you now will NEVER leave.
Does this look like an obsolete design to you? Mine seems to be evolving to another extreme... again its off for another mod..
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h427/pyramids99/ColtLWCommander.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h427/pyramids99/C94kb2.jpg
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h427/pyramids99/C895kb.jpg
The first pic is 2 years old, the next 2 pics are three months old.

Denovo87
18-02-2011, 09:17 PM
Beautiful 1911 Moeen bro, would love to see its current attire... No doubt 1911 is a CULT you cant leave once you join it ;) by the way I got my 1st 1911 27 years ago in the shape of Llama .32, I still have it and thats the the gun I started learning to shoot, field strip, clean n play with handguns ;)

Moeen
18-02-2011, 09:20 PM
Salam bhai,
@Denovo87 - nice to hear from you, sooo you have been a member of this club as long as I have! Excellent.
p.s. plz tell Dr. Zakir to hurry up and make a plan so we both can come over to you for a visit together.

ACHILLES
18-02-2011, 11:45 PM
Moeen bhai i liked your idea let it come. I am watching the evaluation. And than going to bring my own brain child. Let me see if i can get something useful from the evolution of ur's. :wink:

Aquarius
18-02-2011, 11:59 PM
@Moeen: Bhai you have got gorgeous 1911 9mm.

AK47
19-02-2011, 12:06 AM
Great share Moeen bro, always full of surprises! Excellent handgun. What's the mag cap like with the 9mm?

Moeen
19-02-2011, 11:01 PM
Salam All,
Thank you all for the Colt's well deserved comments. To elaborate on this piece, alumagrips extreme grip, S&A magwell, Vydecki trigger, Wilson Combat hammer & Sear, Ed Brown Hi Ride Beavertail safety, Ed Brown Ambi tactical safety, Wilson Combat two piece guide rod, Checkered front strap by EGW, sights (plain black) by Wilson Combat, Stainless magazines (never rust) with Shaw basepads, Wolf springs sets.... Currently trying to evolve it into a muzzle weight piece.... lots of work ahead.
@AK47 - Thanks and the magazine capacity is 9.

Arslan_tareen
21-02-2011, 07:34 PM
wow Great piece moen bahi , amazing list of after market parts this should have been part of our meeting !! well there is always a next time ;)

safeershah
22-02-2011, 08:28 PM
I think denovo is right at some extent , I owned 1911 by various makers but I think that CZ97 is hell of a gun if you compare with 1911, there is some pros and cons of every gun, any new gun is being built based on some requirment otherwise no company will invest time and money in new guns, but I will go for CZ97b not because I have big hands but its better than 1911 , no offense to 1911 as I owned colt and Ithaca as well :)

safeershah
22-02-2011, 08:45 PM
Abbas ,

correct me if I am wrong but you cant compare a 600 dollar gun with a 2000 dollar gun, as 2000 dollar gun is fitted with very good parts and normally a master gunsmith invest his time on each gun to check and double check everything , but at our end of world where bullets are very expensive we cant use any gun to its claimed life i.e. 10k to 30K rounds. so Taurus is equally good for us as colt but again you cant compare Honda city with Honda accord :)

Moeen
23-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - you are right; HOWEVER, with a 1911 there are every parts and accessories available to fit one's requirements whereas cz does NOT.

mhrehman
23-02-2011, 06:31 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - you are right; HOWEVER, with a 1911 there are every parts and accessories available to fit one's requirements whereas cz does NOT.

I agree with moeen bhai, also to mention that most 1911 parts are interchangeable.

safeershah
23-02-2011, 08:48 PM
Moeen CZ is a new gun , 1911 is 100 years old thats why 1911 have so many things avialable in the market, when CZ will be old it will get some parts too, in my opinion CZ 97 is lifetime hatora :) even a empty gun can do some damage becoz of its weight , lolz
but if you buy a high quality 1911 it will cost you 2000 to 3000 dollar and how many CZ you can get in that price range :) , the only drawback i feel for CZ is double stack for small hands or normal hands, I am big as you are ( not sexy like you ) so for us its way better than 1911 , need your feed back :)

safeershah
23-02-2011, 09:00 PM
mrehman, no extra magzines for you now , lolzzzz , jokes apart if you compare standard Taurus 1911 with standard CZ97, no comparison hands down

mhrehman
24-02-2011, 12:05 AM
LOls Safeer bhai, I am merely saying that in .45, my choice would be the 1911 platform. Yet at the same time I am also a CZ lover, actually my first ever firearm was also a CZ and love them absolutely, but not in .45. I do have the Para 14.5, Springfield Armory TRP aswell as the USP45 which do come in high price ranges, but again, my personal choice would be still a 1911.

hounddawg
26-02-2011, 08:44 AM
1) 1911 was a brilliant hand gun of its times but it’s completely over taken by new era hand guns. It was like an auto mobile running at 80mph in 1911 when all others were running at 40mph maximum, now we have average car available is running at 100mph.

Just because an idea is old, does not mean that it is invalid. The comparison is apples and onions. Does it mean that the 1911 fired faster than contemporary guns (80mph), but fires too slowly compared to modern guns (100mph)? Bicycles were invented along time back, and people still use them. Has anything topped electricity yet?


2) Most of the pistols developed in last 30-40 years no doubt are based on 1911 basics but been developed/upgraded using modern day designing techniques.

For this argument to have weight, there needs to be an explanation listing the improvements and upgrades along with field-test comparisons. Adding a grip-safety, double stack mag, free Glock key-ring, and tru-glow sights is not an earth-shattering improvement.


3) If there are many other lot accurate, reliable, robust pistols available these days why one should go for a pistol that was designed 100 years ago and was top of the line pistol a century ago but is not today?

The implication that because it was top-of-the-line 100 years ago, it can't be now is not valid at all. Accurate? 1911. Reliable? 1911. Robust? 1911. There is a word not listed above: PROVEN! Which other handgun has been more thoroughly proven than the 1911?



So friends what you say? Is 1911 an OBSOLETE design/pistol and be kept as souvenir but not for range or SD use?

Sure! That obsolete souvenir is carried and used by millions on ranges worldwide. You go tell them to put away their souvenirs, and see what :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: they say about that :censored::censored::censored::censored: idea!

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P.S. Aalthough my friend (who else than 12gauge bro) tried his best to cure my itch but it came back with the reason “ I WANT A PT1911 JUST FOR ITS BLOODLINE ”, so Naveed bro keep the deal going :biggrin1:

There is a whole lot of gun in a 1911. As far as I'm concerned, the 1911 was far ahead of it's time. So far ahead that gunmakers have not caught up yet.

Moeen
09-03-2011, 11:43 PM
Salam All,
@HoundDawg - very well put, very well indeed.
@SafeerShah - There are many firearms out there almost as old as the Colt 1911s; however, they have never been popular, nor have they lasted through the tests of time... rather have been called fashion statements of the decade. And the other thing to correct you on, some manufacturers do make all the accessories in house and then market the final item at a very high cost; however, a purist will NEVER compromise on a complete package from one source - rather buy the best from various sources and make a great masterpiece and not at a ridiculous cost. Visit Brownells for 1911 accessories, you will find that if you gather all the specialist parts and add them up and then compare it with a complete company version - you will find that your costs are still below what say Kimber charges and your firearm is set up with the best items.

safeershah
10-03-2011, 07:28 PM
Moeen, sir i think brownwell items cant be compare with kimber or some customshop 1911 as price cant be compared so the quality. customshop items are built by some gunsmith and if people are buying then there must be a reason behind it apart from there collecting value .
My point of view was that if you compare cz97 with taurus 1911 out of the box , then the performance of cz97 is much better then taurus , thats what i feel.

Moeen
12-03-2011, 02:28 AM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - Sir, you mean to tell me that EdBrown products, Wilson Combat products, EGW, Novak, are NOT up to par to Kimber?????
I think you need to do a further thorough research on this. You are putting down products by manufacturers whose quality FAR exceeds any Kimber any day. Furthermore MOST customshops accessorize their 1911 pistols with some/most of these things if not copy them. I am truly surprised to have you make a comment like that.
And your point of view regarding comparing a CZ 97 to the Taurus 1911 "My point of view was that if you compare cz97 with taurus 1911 out of the box , then the performance of cz97 is much better then taurus , thats what i feel." Well, feelings aside you are comparing two different pistol designs... On one hand you have a classic John Browning design tried and tested over the ages, being manufactured by literally every manufacturer and on the second hand you are comparing it to a well renowned ergonomically designed pistol thats much younger; however, converted to .45acp! Sir, if a Toyota Surf is a well rated car that doesn't mean that by putting a LandCruiser engine in it will make it more comparable to RangeRovers or such.

Dr Zakir
12-03-2011, 04:26 PM
What are your comments about THE browning Hipower

Moeen
12-03-2011, 04:54 PM
Salam All,
@Dr Zakir aka 'Boss Man' - Browning Hi Power came later and it was said that this is what John M. Browning envisioned the final version of the 1911 to be. What do I think about the HiPower, those who have seen me use it are believers, those who haven't.... set up a gtg and be prepared for astonishment and amazement to the quality, reliability/durability, and accuracy of HiPower.

safeershah
12-03-2011, 09:15 PM
moeen sahab, i have all the accesories of the companies you mentioned , you are right but i think custom made gun is better than adding some accesories of after market not because of the quality but the gunsmith putting his effort and time , apart from it I am totally agree with you , hands down :) but "if a Toyota Surf is a well rated car that doesn't mean that by putting a LandCruiser engine in it will make it more comparable to RangeRovers or such. " then a custom made gun is like a range rover or some made to order car. I was thinking that why people are paying 2k to 3k usd for custom made gun when they can add accesories by themselves, need your expert advice on that.

safeershah
12-03-2011, 10:21 PM
moeen , I am not against the modified gun, for proof my Ithaca 1911 :) but there is a difference between factory modified Mercedes AMG and modified by some out of factory shop

http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.php?5614-my-collection&p=178844#post178844

Skeeter60
14-03-2011, 05:01 PM
An interesting discussion.
The 1911 is obsolete, it is a clunker, it jams, and rattles after little use, but there is a romance with this gun.
Once you are bitten by the 1911 bug you can not give it up, there are endless parts available.
How ever a customized 1911 is a Roll Royce , if a well known US gun smith hand tunes it the 1911 will give phenominal accuracy . The real life fact is there few gunsmiths and all are booked for 6months to 2years and charge from nearly 2000 USD to 3000 USD for a gun to hand tune and fit.
A hand gun tuned by these smiths is smooth like glass and only by raking the slide one is surprised and can not forget the feel, the triggers are commanded as if by the brain and these group within 2 inches at 50 yards with good loads and when fired from a rest.
If we can not afford to customise a 1911 which is obvious, then the Browning HiPower design is far superior. Both guns were designed by the great John Moses Browning.

AK47
14-03-2011, 06:39 PM
@Skeeter Sir............Thanks for veteran opinion above, indeed your experience is far beyond our measures, Sir, though the "clunker" verdict above was indeed more of a cluster-bomb to many of us, lolz! Kidding Sir!

But what exactly is meant by the jamming and rattling points, are those regular/common 1911 features/defects, after some use, or???

It seems from your opinion, that only the non-available (to us) customized 1911's are really worthy of having?? Course, the'd be pure delicacies, no doubts, but, Sir, plz take a tender look at us commoners here, lolz!

Kindly, a bit more specifics on the +/- factors, from your adorable and vast experience, Sir, especially with respect to the Taurus 1911, which is the most commonly available here, as well as for stock 1911's in general. Would be appreciated.

Regards.

safeershah
16-03-2011, 08:03 PM
Skeeter sahib , thanks for approving what I was saying :)
We need to learn much from you specially me :)

safeershah
16-03-2011, 08:28 PM
I think that browning high power and 1911 is famous because American won the second world war if Nazis won that war then we will be discussing and appreciating german luger, mouser and P38 :) I will pick a german luger over a standard WWII colt 1911 without a second thought, those who used german luger and colt 1911 ( WWII edition ) will understand what i am saying

even its better than browning high power, for refrence

http://adventuresincentralasia.blogspot.com/2009/06/herman-germans-ironic-death.html

for luger vs 1911
http://larvatus.livejournal.com/169236.html

safeershah
16-03-2011, 09:02 PM
i think after The Royal Rumble of Budgetd Guns there should be a WAR of Classic Guns as original colt, luger , mouser , P38 are in Islamabad with several members

safeershah
16-03-2011, 10:02 PM
On 19 May 1942, SIG tested five contemporaneous service handguns for accuracy in preparation for the development of their candidate for the next Swiss service sidearm, eventually adopted as the Pistole 49 and designated commercially as the P210. This is what they got in 8 shots fired at 50 meters:

Walther P38:
12.0cm from rest/14.5 cm offhand
Radom ViS35:
18.5cm from rest/17.0 cm offhand
Colt M1911:
30.0cm from rest/42.0 cm offhand
9mm Luger 06/29:
5.5cm from rest/11.5 cm offhand
7.65 Luger 06/29:
5.8cm from rest/9.0 cm offhand

Source: E. Armbruster, W. Kessler, Begegnungen mit einer Legende: SIG SP 47/8 - P 210, Kessler Waffen AG, 2007, p. 15.

coolbox18
28-03-2011, 10:26 AM
Shot this at the end of a hectic day to check the point of impact and accuracy of weapon in my hands, having already shot over 80 rounds from 9mm weapons, target shooting. A better shooter would have easily topped this.
Weapon was pt1911 45acp,
Distance 10mtrs, 15 rounds (i am not good enough for 25 yet!)
VERDICT
Obsolete design my a$$; for those who still insist, shut the (beep) up.

cyanide.dipped
29-03-2011, 03:48 PM
@Denovo Congratulations on buying a fantastic pistol.

The 1911 can only be classified as an obsolete design when we give up projectile based firearms altogether :)

It is and will be one of the most prolific handguns ever designed in our history and certainly one of the most versatile.

In Pakistan I think there's not a better option than the Taurus 1911 which apart from being reasonably priced will give 1911's 3/4 times it's price here a run for it's money.

The only reason the 1911 was less popular in Pakistan was due to the fact that the .45 ACP round was unavailable widely more than 5 years ago and was extremely expensive.

+1. Period.

Scratch
18-08-2011, 02:23 AM
I think there might be some truth to the suggestion that elements of the M1911 are obsolete. If I had to staff my own police force, I certainly would not choose to arm them with M1911s. On the other hand, if I had to choose a personal handgun for the range or home defense, the M1911 would be near the top of my list.

Slightly obsolete or not, a man doesn't carry a M1911 because it is objectively the best handgun for all purposes. But then a man who drives a classic Jaguar sportscar doesn't do so because he needs transportation from points A to B, and isn't worried that there are cars made today that might have better mileage, performance, etc. A man who drives that car does so because he is someone who admires a classic form, and presumably knows how to get the best out of it. I think a man who prefers an M1911 is someone who also appreciates tradition as well as function, something that is lacking in a world full of plastic receivers and newfangled features.

Don't be discouraged from owning a M1911 just because it isn't the cutting edge of today's technology. The "cutting edge" continues to move forward all the time, and whatever new-designed gun you buy will eventually be outdated in some respect anyway. But a time-tested design like the M1911 is beyond the reach of passing fashion.

Dr Zakir
19-08-2011, 01:27 AM
Well said it is very true for this beauty

Arslan_tareen
19-08-2011, 04:27 AM
I think there might be some truth to the suggestion that elements of the M1911 are obsolete. If I had to staff my own police force, I certainly would not choose to arm them with M1911s. On the other hand, if I had to choose a personal handgun for the range or home defense, the M1911 would be near the top of my list.

Slightly obsolete or not, a man doesn't carry a M1911 because it is objectively the best handgun for all purposes. But then a man who drives a classic Jaguar sportscar doesn't do so because he needs transportation from points A to B, and isn't worried that there are cars made today that might have better mileage, performance, etc. A man who drives that car does so because he is someone who admires a classic form, and presumably knows how to get the best out of it. I think a man who prefers an M1911 is someone who also appreciates tradition as well as function, something that is lacking in a world full of plastic receivers and newfangled features.

Don't be discouraged from owning a M1911 just because it isn't the cutting edge of today's technology. The "cutting edge" continues to move forward all the time, and whatever new-designed gun you buy will eventually be outdated in some respect anyway. But a time-tested design like the M1911 is beyond the reach of passing fashion.

You sir have hit the nail with this post , a very clear point perfectly presented , M1911 and Browning Hi power , 2 hands guns that will clearly fail on many fronts when facing more modern lighter and advanced designs , but will beat hands down any hand gun on personal choice and Classic notes .
I have never met a gun lover who knows a thing or two who does not already owns or have these two (specially M1911) on his wish list , One is the most Iconic hand gun the second is the most trusted and used by the world militaries .

Moeen
25-08-2011, 01:38 AM
Salam All,
I would like to here and now state a question - something to which I do hope someone will properly enlighten me with regarding the subject of 1911 being an obsolete design which I believe is NOT.

If its obsolete - Why is literally EVERY world manufacturer getting into making the 1911? Currently, Sig Sauer, Dan Wesson, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Magnum Research, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Clark, Briley, Pistol Dynamics, STI, SVI, Les Bauer, AMT, Colt, Astra, Caspian, Olympic Arms, Eagle Arms, Dlask Arms, Rock River Arms, Freedom Arms, Gun Crafters, Ithaca, Springfield Armory, Kimber, LAR, Federal Ordnance, Detonics, Cylinder & Slide, Charles Daly, Armscor, Norinco, Night Hawk, Para Ordnance, Nowlin, Novak, North American Arms, Peter Stahl, Randall, Remington Arms, Rock Island Armory, Safari Arms, Sistema, Taurus, Ballester - Molina, Llama.......... And I am sure if I look further I can come up with more names aside from memory!

Obsolete design... HAH! Last I checked no one was trying to make glocks or XDs or Px4 Storms or sigs AKA designs of decade fashions always requiring a facelift to keep up with the TRIED AND TRUED 1911!

M.ASIF KHAN
25-08-2011, 02:07 AM
Salam All,
I would like to here and now state a question - something to which I do hope someone will properly enlighten me with regarding the subject of 1911 being an obsolete design which I believe is NOT.

If its obsolete - Why is literally EVERY world manufacturer getting into making the 1911? Currently, Sig Sauer, Dan Wesson, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Magnum Research, Ed Brown, Wilson Combat, Clark, Briley, Pistol Dynamics, STI, SVI, Les Bauer, AMT, Colt, Astra, Caspian, Olympic Arms, Eagle Arms, Dlask Arms, Rock River Arms, Freedom Arms, Gun Crafters, Ithaca, Springfield Armory, Kimber, LAR, Federal Ordnance, Detonics, Cylinder & Slide, Charles Daly, Armscor, Norinco, Night Hawk, Para Ordnance, Nowlin, Novak, North American Arms, Peter Stahl, Randall, Remington Arms, Rock Island Armory, Safari Arms, Sistema, Taurus, Ballester - Molina, Llama.......... And I am sure if I look further I can come up with more names aside from memory!

Obsolete design... HAH! Last I checked no one was trying to make glocks or XDs or Px4 Storms or sigs AKA designs of decade fashions always requiring a facelift to keep up with the TRIED AND TRUED 1911!


wow one model so many manufacturer .
moeen bhi can you put some light on 1911 design and performance and why its to hot.
regards

Moeen
25-08-2011, 11:33 AM
Salam All,
@M.AsifKhan - Thanks for the compliment, bhai the design is very simple to work with, the barrel to grip angle is the most ergonomic I have ever found (its a natural pointer), performance/variations to fit EVERYONE's needs; I believe it to be a wheel designed once and everyone is trying to follow; problem is that no one thus far has been able to re-invent this wheel with success - people have tried but there have always been short comings like too much weight, width, reliability.

safeershah
28-08-2011, 02:02 AM
Moeen,

few points which I like to share
I think (correct me if I am wrong) America won the WWII and soldiers can take their arms with them when they leave as it was a side arms of american soliders so after WWII many guns were in the markets and no other battle proven handgun were available in such a cheap rate at that time so its start a cult following , if Nazis won that war then right now we were praising luger P08, Walther P38 and Mauser. I tested luger and walther P38 and they are much superior than 1911 in finish , quality and accuracy. I would choose Luger P08 on 1911 without any second thought although I have several 1911 in different makes and just today I bought one more 1911 lolzz, , keeping my finger crossed for luger P08 in good condition

Moeen
29-08-2011, 08:07 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - lols, I knew my bhai would leave me a comment. Firstly, I have owned the P38s and the Lugers. Both ARE great shooting weapons; HOWEVER, the p38s were riddled with the problem of the small plates flying off on top of the slides and as for the Lugers - their biggest failure with that weapon was the recoil spring which was a coil system and was and still is prone to breakages sometimes due to incorrect fitments. The dis-assembly and re-assembly is not as quick. Small parts in hard to reach areas for changing.
As for the 1911s well - I say it didn't win the WWII rather it aided in winning WWII as there were several other countries without their help I strongly believe US would not have won WWII alone. Then there was Korea, each side states they won, then Vietnam which we know US lost but still states they won, then Greneda which I don't think they won, Lebanon...... and on and on.... I will NOT comment on the country only its inception of this fine firearm which over all is a great design and very little kinks or kinks that can be corrected easily.
Whereas with the other two weapons you mentioned its a different story completely.

safeershah
30-08-2011, 12:49 AM
Moeen, Find me some lugers now :) I want to buy some mauser , lugers and P38 maybe I am inclined to Nazi side lolz , I think that media played a vital role of 1911 popularity as american always show their stuff, they even tried to sell desert eagle via films but fail as nobody can carry a cannon lolz , for lugers and P38 I think they were complex machines, I saw some reproduction of Luger P08 in .45 cal with 6 inch barrel but price were very high even in the USA.

Moeen
01-09-2011, 11:58 AM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - Thanks, will see.
I am glad you stated finding a REPRODUCTION Luger in .45 caliber, because the original went on sale at an auction for over a MILLION USD!!! It was serial number 2, slated for induction into the US military sidearms adoption trials. Supposedly, only ten in existence... wonder if someone has one in Pak?????

American Lockpicker
06-10-2011, 05:38 AM
I think its a very outdated design. Low capacity, heavy, single action trigger, etc...

Sturmgewehr
06-10-2011, 11:40 AM
@moeen
There are old mausers lying around in pakistan{my grandpas mauser 1914[complete with kit and original holster] used in ww2 is with us but its slide needs fixing}...Mr.Bilalzubairi our fellow member has one c96 broomhandle...as for lugers im stumped.......they only sell for millions if they have some special markings,rechamberings and serials otherwise its only worth a few grand like a 20 or 25k usd{that too when there are SS marking on them}...not a bad deal for a collector actaully...

Moeen
07-10-2011, 11:58 PM
Salam All,
@Sturmgewehr - Yes very very true, the ones I am stating were in .45acp, do you have any?
As for the rest of them yes rare but have to look for the markings inside the frame where the lockup is. I had one I bought from a old lady for a hundred bucks back in '87 then I took it to a dealer who should me what looked like a small ball meant to signify a sun with heat like lines on the ball. He then took out a luger book and should me the value... 5000.00usd - and my reply was SOLD.

Sturmgewehr
08-10-2011, 12:35 PM
Salam All,
@Sturmgewehr - Yes very very true, the ones I am stating were in .45acp, do you have any?
As for the rest of them yes rare but have to look for the markings inside the frame where the lockup is. I had one I bought from a old lady for a hundred bucks back in '87 then I took it to a dealer who should me what looked like a small ball meant to signify a sun with heat like lines on the ball. He then took out a luger book and should me the value... 5000.00usd - and my reply was SOLD.

oho sir you arent supposed to sell those you should keep them in a mahogany gun cabinet on display...I dont have any lugers...but Im hoping that I will inherit my grandpas 1914 mauser...I can get the spare parts im sure.....As for lugers where to get them here in Pakistan...and where to get a real bargain know what i mean nudge nudge wink wink...would really appreciate if you could help me out here....

Sturmgewehr
08-10-2011, 12:37 PM
Plus what was the title of the book your dealer used........I need to be able to spot fakes and stuff Im sure old darri copies of these weapons are available in market as well....so I need to educate my self in fine recognition and stuff.