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fahadkhalid
27-05-2010, 05:59 PM
I guess this thread would be the best to post this. Today while surfing the net i stumbled upon a very wonderful surprise. I am very fond of the yavuz collection and this is what i found today.
http://s2.postimage.org/ecVFS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsecVFS)

http://s2.postimage.org/ecYa0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsecYa0)

the yavuz mc21 is being manufactured in .40 and .45 also.

http://yavuz16.com/en/mc-21-45

for the 1911 lovers
http://yavuz16.com/en/mc-1911

ARlover
27-05-2010, 06:53 PM
Caliber : .45 ACP

Operation System : Short Recoil
Trigger System : Semi Automatic Double Action
Length : 198.1 mm
Height : 139 mm
Width : 33 mm
Weight (without magazine) : 905 gr

Magazine Capacity : 9

Empty Magazine Weight : 100 gr
Full Magazine Weight : 291 gr
Barrel Length : 106.5 mm
Set-Groove : Right Hand 6 Unit (406 mm)
Barrel Production Method : Cold Forged
Barrel Life : 30.000 Shooting
Type of Sight : Dovetailed Foresight,Notched Sight
Line of Sight : 150.5 mm

Safety System : Safety Lever, Pin Safety Block, Hammer Safety

Effective Range : 55 m (10 m)
Muzzle Velocity : 250 m/sec
Operation Temperature : -40oC / +60oC
Trigger Action : Double Action
HERE IS INFO I FIND ON WEB ABOUT THIS MC21.45

Gilani
27-05-2010, 09:59 PM
Nice share fahad sahib. 1911 looks nice, I wonder when it would be available in Pakistan?

Going through data of different handguns on Yavuz site, I was surprised that a .45ACP 1911 with a 127.8 mm barrel has effective range of 55 M whereas much smaller MC25 (100 mm barrel) firing a much weaker .380 ACP ammo has an effective range of 80 M??? Similarly, M1911 S is 222 mm long but the sighting radius is just 157 mm? :rolleyes: :/

fahadkhalid
28-05-2010, 12:15 AM
@Gillani sb, your comments are very enlightening, specially comming from an expert range shooter like yourself. just a couple of questions for the sake of my knowledge sir:

1) Would'nt the effective range of a .45 be less than that of a 9mm bullet? considering the size and the weight of the .45 bullet.

2) what exactly is the sight radius of a gun? and its relation to the lenght of the gun?

wasifali89
28-05-2010, 12:47 AM
@Gillani sb, your comments are very enlightening, specially comming from an expert range shooter like yourself. just a couple of questions for the sake of my knowledge sir:

1) Would'nt the effective range of a .45 be less than that of a 9mm bullet? considering the size and the weight of the .45 bullet.

2) what exactly is the sight radius of a gun? and its relation to the lenght of the gun?

im personally not an authentic source to answer ur questions

but for the 1st question

i think phisically, a bullet with less weight has the ability for a longer accurate shot
and the 45 must be a descructive mahem

SPAYPANTHER
28-05-2010, 12:42 PM
i think phisically, a bullet with less weight has the ability for a longer accurate shot
and the 45 must be a descructive mahem

then what about .30???? it should be more acurate then 9mm but it is not

KageFox
28-05-2010, 12:59 PM
The 7.62x25mm lacks an accurate platform, if thats what you mean...

I personally believe that a weapon's effective range is relative; some people can shoot pistols at man-sized targets 200 yards away... In my opinion, such statistics are there to be ignored...

Aquarius
28-05-2010, 02:27 PM
Nice sharing fahd brother.. 1911 looks good.... :)

fahadkhalid
28-05-2010, 02:45 PM
but for the 1st question

i think phisically, a bullet with less weight has the ability for a longer accurate shot
and the 45 must be a descructive mahem

that is exactly what i wanted to ask Gillani sb, a .45 bullet is heavier than 9mm, so it has to have a smaller effective range.

Gilani
28-05-2010, 05:55 PM
fahad sahib,
First of all I compared a .45ACP with .380 ACP (9x17 Browning Short) and not with 9x19 parabellum which is a much more powerful round whereas .380 ACP is probably the weakest of all 9mm rounds.

The effective range of a handgun is the max range achieved by the bullet without effecting the accuracy, ie, the accuracy of the gun is maintained till that range. It is not to be mixed up with the max range that a bullet can reach. So I was surprised to see that a relatively weak ammo like .380 ACP fired from 4 inch barrel had a much greater range (80 m) than a much more powerful .45 ACP fired from 128 mm barrel. :|

As regards the max effective range, it depends mainly on two things in my view.
- First is the ammo. The amount of propellant charge contained in the cartridge is the main thing though size and shape of bullet also have an effect. Simply put, more the propellant charge, more the energy produced, more the chamber pressure and more the MV. This all, aided by an appropriately sized bullet for that pressure (neither too big nor too small) results in achieving more effective range.

- Now if we fire the same ammo from a 3 inch barrel pistol and than with a six inch barrel pistol, we will see that range achieved by the same ammo from a longer barrel is more. A longer barrel allows optimum pressure to be built and imparts adequate spin on the bullet through the rifling which results in more effective range. Again, if the barrel length is increased too much, the optimum pressure would start decreasing after a certain time and the range would start reducing from that point onwards.

I could not find any data on this but I found it odd that a .380 ACP round fired with 100 MM barrel pistol had much more effective range than a .45 ACP fired from a 128 MM barrel pistol. Mind you we are talking of effective range here.

Now the Sight Radius which is simply the distance between the front site tip and the rear site. In normal 1911s with 5 inch barrel, total length is 220-225 mm and sight radius is generally 165-175 mm, depending on different models. I found it odd that a 222 mm long 1911 had a sight radius of 157 mm, which is a little less.

Longer sight radius tremendously helps in accurate shooting.
My two cents :)

fahadkhalid
28-05-2010, 08:12 PM
@Gillani sb, i am impressed by ur knowledge and more so by your humbleness...if this was 2 cents, i am wondering what the whole knowledge bank would be worth :)

fahadkhalid
28-05-2010, 08:14 PM
i guess someone will have to go ahead and buy one of these to figure what the quality is. they are doing good as far as 9mms are concerned.

fahadkhalid
28-05-2010, 08:37 PM
.45 230 gr (15 g) Speer Lawman FMJ velocity 830 ft/s
9mm 115.0 gr(7.45 g ) JHP +P+ velocity 1427 ft/s

the mc21 has a 100 mm barrel and the 1911 has a 128mm barrel. but with a velocity of 1427 ft/sec with a weight of 7.45 gr, the 9mm bullet has to travel further than the .45.

Gilani
28-05-2010, 10:42 PM
.45 230 gr (15 g) Speer Lawman FMJ velocity 830 ft/s
9mm 115.0 gr(7.45 g ) JHP +P+ velocity 1427 ft/s

the mc21 has a 100 mm barrel and the 1911 has a 128mm barrel. but with a velocity of 1427 ft/sec with a weight of 7.45 gr, the 9mm bullet has to travel further than the .45.

fahad sahib, I was referring to MC25 actually which comes in .380 ACP caliber but erroneously I wrote MC21 which comes in 9x19 Parabellum (I have edited my previous post accordingly). My comment was related to comparison of .380 ACP (9x17 Browning Short) with .45 ACP and not of 9x19 parabellum with .45 ACP.

I have gone through the Yavuz16 site again and now I find it full of errors. Like the MV for .380 ACP in MC25 and for 9x19 Parabellum in case of MC21 is same, ie, 363 m/s which comes to 1191 ft/s. How is this possible? 9x19 parabellum is a much more powerful round than 9x17 Browning Short / .380 ACP. There are many other errors also. I hope the standard of the Yavuz16 weapons is better than the quality of information available on their website. :lol:

Now coming to your data quoted above refers to 9x19 parabellum whereas I am talking about .380 ACP. Moreover, you have quoted a +P+ ammo from 9x19 para which obviously is a very hot load and will have more range and much higher MV than a standard .45 ACP.

However, MV of a standard .380 ACP is roughly 290 m/sec or 950 ft/s when fired from a standard 4.5 inch barrel. (Please note that with the change in size of barrel, MV will also change. ie, MV of the same .380 ACP round when fired with a 3 inch barrel pistol would be less than 950 ft / sec and from 5 inch barrel would be more than 950 ft/sec).

The standard FMJ loads of the common calibers in 9mm and .45 ACP would have following characteristics (data taken from internet);

- .380 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9x17 Kurz or 9x17 Corto
Wt.......6.16 gms or 95 grains (wt of bullet not cartridge)
MV....... 950 ft / sec (with standard 4.5 inch barrel)
ME.......260 joules (Muzzle energy)

- 9x18 Makarov
Wt.......6.16 gms or 95 grains
MV....... 1033 ft / sec (with standard 4.5 inch barrel)
ME.......302 joules (Muzzle energy)

- 9x19 Parabellum
Wt.......7.45 gms or 115 grains
MV....... 1118 ft / sec (with standard 4.5 inch barrel)
ME.......460 joules (Muzzle energy)

- .45 ACP (11.43x23 mm)
Wt.......14.9 gms or 230 grains
MV....... 902 ft / sec (with standard 4.5 inch barrel)
ME.......563 joules (Muzzle energy)

Now how much would be the effective range of MC25 firing standard .380 ACP load and that of M1911 firing a standard .45 ACP, will have to checked by firing. I have all my doubts in Yavuz 16 data. (Mind you I am talking of effective range and not just range which is, in my view, of not any value.)

I hope I have not made the things more complicated. :)

My only concern was that if there are so many errors in the website of a company (which certainly speaks of their seriousness / quality control) than how would be the standard of weapons of that company? Just a feeling, otherwise Yavuz may be making very good weapons and on internet, its just not difficult to prove it :)

Thanks for your time :)

fahadkhalid
29-05-2010, 01:49 AM
@Gillani sb, thank you for your time. and no you did not make things more complicated, infact you added alot to my meager knowledge of the topic. I have dropped an email to the company on their suggestions and complaints link. lets see (if at all) they do anything about it. thank you once again sir.