Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Hand guns and cartridge called .380 ,9x17 or 9mm short

  1. #1

    Hand guns and cartridge called .380 ,9x17 or 9mm short

    AsaLam-O-Alaikum to all

    I am Starting a new topic called .380/9x17/9mm short correct me if I have made a mistake in cartridge. If there is already a topic about this please post a link or title of that topic.

    A friend of mine asked me to post this topic and ask senior members and experts about a cartridge known as .380 , 9x19 mm or 9mm short. As we were going thought some handguns reviews on Youtube and came across this particular cartridge. And didnít find much information about it other then its 9mm shorten cartridge and is used for self defense I have heard that these make great conceal carry and home defense . So I was curious and posted a topic here I want to know as follow:

    1. PERFORMANCE / CAPABILITY
    Is it really a good home and self-defense cartridge and how capable is it?

    2. AVAILABILITY
    Availability of this particular cartridge in Pakistan . Are they easy to get a hold of or are they very rare.

    3. Firearms
    Which firearms are available for this cartridges . I mean models and companies which are available in Pakistan and if possible price range

    4. Drawbacks
    Are there any drawback to this ?

    In simple words I need a full review I hope I didnít brake any rules and regulation of Pak Guns and looking forward to read good reviews and if possible personal experiences I hope I posted it in the right section coz I am a bit confused about it :P

  2. #2
    compared to 9mm the 9mm short has lower velocity, less penetration, and does less damage in terms of wound area and volume.

    the cartridge is available in Pakistan but is almost double the price of 9mm rounds

    the 9mm short firearm that is most popular in Pakistan is the Makarov (both Chinese and Russian are available in the market) prices start at around 35k. There is a 9mm short variant of the Taurus PT111 but i have not seen many available.

    Drawbacks are that it is less potent than the 9mm and availability and price of ammo can be an issue.

    If this is going to be your primary HD/SD weapon then i advice against it, however i strongly believe every collector should own a Makarov.
    "Girte hain shahsawar hi maidan-e-jung mein. Woh tifal kya girenge jo ghutnon ke bal chalein?"

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Karachi
    Posts
    503
    The Makarov served as the official side arm for a long long time for one the longest standing armies in the world ..... it is small , easy to carry and well balanced and is deadly in trained hands ...... I own one and love it ..... cheers :D

  4. #4
    @ Basharat: Thank you very much :)
    But can anyone explain if its lower velocity, less penetration, smaller firearms how come its so expensive. I thought that maybe local gun manufacture make it because it might be less cost and use normal steels and stuff :P
    Sorry if i am changing the subject or lets just say adding to the subject what are 9mm subcompact options available in Pakistan 6 or 7 rounds are enough for HD/SD for a small flat the he lives in

  5. #5
    Expert Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Multan
    Posts
    1,517
    it is qualified as minimum calibre for self defense by many experts. Bullets are not available in market at least in lahore. I have my eyes set on a walther but ammo availability is an issue .
    Cheers

  6. #6
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    .380 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .380 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .380 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

    Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .380 ACP. 9x18 mm Makarov and .380 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

    As for the weapons firing .380 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .380 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .380 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

    regards

  7. #7
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    As for the higher costs of .380 ACP, I thinks its all supply and demand issue. Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber and we have much smaller handguns available nowadays in 9x19 mm and even .45 ACP which are much potent calibers. (Glock 26, Berreta PX4 Storm, CZ 2025 Rami, HK 2000 SK, STI Rouge, Taurus 145, Keltec, Kahr models etc etc) :)

  8. #8
    Expert Member Slayerjatt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    lahore
    Posts
    1,284
    very well explained gilani sb and i couldn't agree more.
    i am the master of my unspoken words and slave to those that should have remained unspoken. -----Hazrat Ali (R.A)

  9. #9
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Peshawar
    Posts
    1,772
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilani
    Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber

    In the 1980s and 1990s, gunwriters penned an almost endless litany of articles declaring the .380 everything from useless to dead - and those were just two of the kinder descriptive terms.

    However, at the 2009 SHOT Show, five new small .380 ACP semi-automatic pistols intended for unobtrusive, discreet carry. The guns were the Kahr P380, the Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle, the SIG Sauer P238, the Taurus TCP and the Walther PK380.
    There are only TWO times when you can have too much ammo... When you are on fire or when you are drowning...

  10. #10
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Faisji
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilani
    Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber

    In the 1980s and 1990s, gunwriters penned an almost endless litany of articles declaring the .380 everything from useless to dead - and those were just two of the kinder descriptive terms.

    However, at the 2009 SHOT Show, five new small .380 ACP semi-automatic pistols intended for unobtrusive, discreet carry. The guns were the Kahr P380, the Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle, the SIG Sauer P238, the Taurus TCP and the Walther PK380.
    Very correct Sir. However, there was a far bigger number of compact and subcompact models in 9x19 mm also :)

  11. #11
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Peshawar
    Posts
    1,772
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilani

    Very correct Sir. However, there was a far bigger number of compact and subcompact models in 9x19 mm also :)
    Very true but i am just pointing to fact that far from dying out .380 is a resurgent caliber with major manufacturers investing in R&D and marketing for the caliber.
    There are only TWO times when you can have too much ammo... When you are on fire or when you are drowning...

  12. #12
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    I agree. :)

  13. #13
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Peshawar
    Posts
    1,772
    I hope some these weapons make it here.I handled a LCP (carried by UN official here) and that guns a beauty.very manageable recoil and extremely concealable.
    The guy was carrying it his shirt pocket.
    There are only TWO times when you can have too much ammo... When you are on fire or when you are drowning...

  14. #14
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    Absolutely right. And same is the case of Keltec and Kahr models. But again, Glock 26 and STI Rouge etc, though slightly bigger in size, are also very well concealable and provide a far potent firepower. I think at the end it boils down to one's personal liking and satisfaction. :)

  15. #15
    Expert Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Multan
    Posts
    1,517
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilani
    .38 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .38 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .38 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

    Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .38 ACP. Makarov and .38 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

    As for the weapons firing .38 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .38 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .38 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

    regards
    very nicely put sir but you mixed .38 ACP &.380 ACP, both are two very different cartridges. .38 ACP is 9x23 while .380 is 9x17
    cheers

  16. #16
    Senior Moderator Denovo87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    7,035
    Blog Entries
    1
    Was waiting you since morning Ahmed bro, how a 9mm variant can be discussed without you been a part of it :)
    Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others.

  17. #17
    Expert Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Multan
    Posts
    1,517
    Quote Originally Posted by Denovo87
    Was waiting you since morning Ahmed bro, how a 9mm variant can be discussed without you been a part of it :)
    well denovo bhai, 9 mms are very confusing as there are many of them. so i like all calibers which start with 4.
    cheers

  18. #18
    Supreme Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Posts
    2,346
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmad
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilani
    .38 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .38 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .38 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

    Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .38 ACP. Makarov and .38 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

    As for the weapons firing .38 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .38 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .38 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

    regards
    very nicely put sir but you mixed .38 ACP &.380 ACP, both are two very different cartridges. .38 ACP is 9x23 while .380 is 9x17
    cheers
    Thanks for the correction Ahmad Sir, you are right. I meant .380 ACP, ie, 9x17mm Short and not .38 ACP.:). And accordingly, I have made corrections in my original post.

    However, 9x23 mm cartridge that you are mentioning is also not called .38 ACP. There are two variants of 9x23 mm available; one is .38 Super Automatic or 9x23SR, commonly known as .38 Super which was originally developed by Colt for use in Colt M1911 Government Model pistols.
    The other one is 9x23 Largo, also called 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. Basically developed in Germany, this cartridge was more commonly used in Spanish made pistols.
    regards

  19. #19
    PakGuns Expert Panel
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lahore
    Posts
    131
    Beretta also made a beautiful pistol in 380 ACP. It was probably called model 83, not sure. I think .380 ACP is the most potent of fixed barrels type pistols.

    Ammo is just not available. If it is than please let me know the source as a friend of mine is looking for some as he owns a Beretta in this caliber.

    Why opt for it as a SD gun? When compared with a 9mm, there could be two reasons, one its easier to control and the other one I can't really think of! But ofcourse, one must opt for a weapon one feels comfortable and confident with. It produces the best results. If Dirty Harry feels ok with a .44 magnum I personally don't. By all means go for a .380 ACP but do double check the availability of ammo.

  20. #20
    Expert Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Multan
    Posts
    1,517
    @ gilani the dimensions of 38 acp is 9x23 sr,you may check it, to make things more clear or more confusing there is a modern 9x23 which is 9x23 winchester which is entirely different .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •