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Thread: A bullet with our name: De-weaponising Pakistan will not be easy

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Survivalist View Post
    Dear Skywalker, I completely agree with your suggestion to de-weaponize Pakistani nation (IFF) and that we are already very vulnerable due to corruption, terrorism, dirty politics etc, BUTT the only thing that remains as deterrance between us and enemy is something you anti-gun guys believe we made to play with, me lord, NO and it is a BIG NO, we will use it when time will come. They.
    I wrote this down as a joke

    "Gun ownership in Pakistan is not new. my great grandfather had guns so did my grandfather whoever; this is a new unique problem which requires a different tactile approach.
    Personally i have stared to believe that the idea of DE-weaponizing the civilian population must have been ignited by a foreign agent, whose sole indent is to make sure that the civilian population stays DE-weaponized; therefore making it easier for the foreign troops to manage civilians after they have vanquished the armed forced (LOLZ.)""


    however after reading your comments i am convinced that this might not after all be a conspiracy theory. there might be seem reality behind the authors (of the article) motive.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ajmal virk View Post
    One of our respected brother was mentioning 911 and we have very active 15 it happened to me yesterday as I was sleeping in my home after offering Fajar some one called my brother that police is looking for Mr.Ajmal as some one called on 15 that Ajmal is doing hell of arial firing and DPO HFD have ordere.
    Brother I couldn't agree with you more, it is just the pathetic reality of our society. But nevertheless it doesn't suggest us to become extremely pessimistic out of our helpless situation. We should start talking a stand and be truthful as a nation otherwise; God help us.
    An FIR means that you have to start proving yourself innocent regardless of you actual involvement in the activity. Happened recently to one of my friends. He was shot by his worker (at the factory), shortly after the family registered an FIR. the convicted member along with his family members and villagers(his neighbors) files a reverse FIR on the guy who was previously victimized. The investigation is in a stale mate. the assailant (at large) was turned up (a couple of times) to the investigating police station and was not arrested. Police Station response was: the assailant was accompanied with 20+ men and it was hard for us to confront them, the situation might have gone out of hand.
    AND I AM A 100% SURE THE VICTIM HAD TO SUFFER AT THE HAND OF AN ILLEGAL GUN. NOT A LICENSED WEAPON.

  3. #63
    Lord of War Survivalist's Avatar
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    Dear Beretta8 brother, thanks and it is a fact, why India wants surgical strikes, what their NSAdviser and PM said recently and why there were no forces required for decades on our western borders (what if our KPK/FATA tribes have had no weapons, and none of our troops on ground, these borders would be very vulnerable). A well trained, disciplined and armed civilian is second line of defense, we are deliberately weakened in last decades through sectarian and ethnic violence and differences, terrorism, economic crises and corrupt practices by politicians but only one institution stood in line of fire which are our armed forces and agencies, enemy failed in that regard overtime, but if a weak nation and economy could not stand behind army, how long will they defend us. Why scouting and NCC are no more, why our youth has no entertainment, sports, activities, goals and objectives except it mashooqi, smartphones and social media (there is no free lunch, all social media and android OS etc are for spying on our nation and our privacy, we will understand that after 20-30 years when our kids will ask baba what you were doing at that location, why your picture is with this and that, when our fingerprints, voice samples, signatures, photographs and identity documents will be manipulated by foreign agencies to blackmail us or our kids, and strangely enough we are reluctant to give information to NADRA but voluntarily sharing EVERYTHING where we are, with whom, doing what, our banking details and docs, everything through phones, social media, whatsapp etc etc), why not they do scouting, read books, learn arts and crafts, do social work voluntarily, participate in national cadet course and become disciplined and trained useful arms of society, learn skills and how to survive?????? Our only aim for our kids is they get top marks (strange craze) and become one making robots, not a good citizen, helpful member of society or a leader. We have chosen worst of our lot to rule on us and best of us to become DMG/CSS after taking all creativity and kindness from them and injecting into a corrupt system. THINK, EVERYONE SHOULD .... THINK.

    Quote Originally Posted by beretta8 View Post
    I wrote this down as a joke

    "Gun ownership in Pakistan is not new. my great grandfather had guns so did my grandfather whoever; this is a new unique problem which requires a different tactile approach.
    Personally i have stared to believe that the idea of DE-weaponizing the civilian population must have been ignited by a foreign agent, whose sole indent is to make sure that the civilian population stays DE-weaponized; therefore making it easier for the foreign troops to manage civilians after they have vanquished the armed forced (LOLZ.)""


    however after reading your comments i am convinced that this might not after all be a conspiracy theory. there might be seem reality behind the authors (of the article) motive.
    All That Is Necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing!

  4. #64
    Survivalist


    Very true Mr. Survivalist and really we are speechless. wo jo khty hain na "parhta ja sharmata ja" but "zara num ho ye matti to bari zarkhez hy saqi" such like post is candle in darkness to keep on track and everybody need to participate there share morally and actively to betterment of Nation, Country and for next generation.
    Last edited by a_rsoud; 23-07-2015 at 02:29 PM.
    a_rsoud. "Owning a gun doesn't make you a murderer anymore than owning a guitar makes your a guitarist"..

  5. #65
    Very true Survivalist !! But most of us do not understand

  6. #66
    Lord of War Survivalist's Avatar
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    Thanks a_rsoud brother, as I say "All That Is Necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing!".

    Quote Originally Posted by a_rsoud View Post
    Survivalist


    Very true Mr. (***please use pseudonym***) and really we are speechless. wo jo khty hain na "parhta ja sharmata ja" but "zara num ho ye matti to bari zarkhez hy saqi" such like post is candle in darkness to keep on track and everybody need to participate there share morally and actively to betterment of Nation, Country and for next generation.
    Last edited by Survivalist; 23-07-2015 at 01:49 PM.
    All That Is Necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing!

  7. #67
    Guns are nothing but a means to an end as are cars,hammers and dynamite.
    you say that guns are dangerous when in fact its common knowledge that a gun never kills people of its own accord.people kill people.Its up to the people to ensure that the instrument or tool they carry meets its desired purpose.
    A gun is either a tool for self defence or a tool for taking an innocent life;this is true just as it is true that a CAR can either be used for transportation or running some innocent over;It is as true as the purpose of a hammer which can be used to fix furniture or bash in some innocents skull.Same goes for dynamite...it can either be used to blow of a building for making room for a new establishment or blow of innocent people.
    The people here who are suggesting we de-weaponize the law abiding citizens,should also turn in their cars,tools and even their kitchen knives as these sort of items are also weapons in the wrong hands.

  8. #68
    I've created a list to make it easy for our brothers who insist on de-weaponization of our country(de-weaponization of law-abiding citizens).
    List of items that can be used to kill as follows:
    1.kitchen knives
    2.lego blocks
    3.hardware tools
    4.chairs
    5.mirrors
    6.bed pegs
    7.glass crockery
    8.Any stationary(particularly pens and pencils)
    9.cars
    10.motorcycles
    11...........
    12..............


    and its a never ending list.
    Forgive me if i've offended any member.it wasnt my intention to hurt but give my two cents on the matter.Your views and criticism are welcomed as it is a free country.Which by the way wouldn't have been free if it werent for the army and the pashtun citizens who defended our motherland in 1947 against India in Baltistan WITH and You guessed it right........GUNS
    Last edited by geniusmaniac; 23-07-2015 at 03:48 PM.

  9. #69
    Enthusiast khanjee666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geniusmaniac View Post
    I've created a list to make it easy for our brothers who insist on de-weaponization of our country(de-weaponization of law-abiding citizens).
    List of items that can be used to kill as follows:
    1.kitchen knives
    2.lego blocks
    3.hardware tools
    4.chairs
    5.mirrors
    6.bed pegs
    7.glass crockery
    8.Any stationary(particularly pens and pencils)
    9.cars
    10.motorcycles
    11...........
    12..............


    and its a never ending list.
    Forgive me if i've offended any member.it wasnt my intention to hurt but give my two cents on the matter.Your views and criticism are welcomed as it is a free country.Which by the way wouldn't have been free if it werent for the army and the pashtun citizens who defended our motherland in 1947 against India in Baltistan WITH and You guessed it right........GUNS

  10. #70


    By outlawing guns only outlaws will have them! These dumb laws and bans only apply to law abiding citizens. By banning something do you think that will make all the criminals say "Hey I better turn this in before I get caught with it."? The answer is NO! Are all guns practical? Probably not, but neither is a Mercedes Benz other luxury car when you could be driving a Prius. These are cars that people buy because of a "want". Don't get my point yet? Liberals say guns are dangerous because some mentally unstable person or criminal goes and shoots a bunch of people. The same mentally unstable person or criminal runs over a family of 4 then continues to drive into someones house or place of business and the car doesn't get banned. If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words, cars make people drive drunk, and spoons make people fat. Oh and throwing out made up words like "Assault rifle" is how liberals get other liberals to listen! I could "Assault" you with a pencil, doesn't make it an "Assault pencil" right? Assault is a behavior not a device! Wake up!
    Choosing to smoke kills more people each year than firearm related crimes combined!
    Yet you can buy a pack at almost any corner store.

  11. #71
    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian Jee View Post




    Choosing to smoke kills more people each year than firearm related crimes combined!
    Yet you can buy a pack at almost any corner store.
    Mian Jee, with due respect

    One can't really compare guns with cigarettes

    Bank robbers, criminals, etc don't take packs of cigarettes to commit crimes and say give us your money or smoke yourself to death.
    Terrorists/targets killers again don't take packs of cigarettes to their victims and say smoke yourself to death.

    If they did, I would be among the first to say, ban cigarettes.
    Last edited by skywalker233; 23-07-2015 at 09:14 PM.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
    No matter how bad your situation seems, there is always another for whom things are worse.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywalker233 View Post
    Mian Jee, with due respect

    One can't really compare guns with cigarettes

    Bank robbers, criminals, etc don't take packs of cigarettes to commit crimes and say give us your money or smoke yourself to death.
    Terrorist/targets killers again don't take packs of cigarettes to their victims and say smoke yourself to death.

    If they did, I would be among the first to say ban cigarettes.
    Minimalizatin of view at its best.
    Do you know that
    Secondhand smoke is classified as a “known human carcinogen” (cancer-causing agent) by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the US National Toxicology Program, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC – a branch of the World Health Organization).

    IARC reported in 2009 that parents who smoked before and during pregnancy were more likely to have a child with hepatoblastoma. This rare liver cancer is thought to start while the child is still in the uterus. Compared with non-smoking parents, the risk was about twice as high if only one parent smoked, but nearly 5 times higher when both parents smoked

    Secondhand smoke causes other diseases and death

    Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. Each year in the United States alone, it’s responsible for:

    • An estimated 42,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are current non-smokers
    • About 7,000 lung cancer deaths in non-smoking adults
    • Worse asthma and asthma-related problems in up to 1 million asthmatic children
    • Between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract (lung and bronchus) infections in children under 18 months of age, with 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations each year
    • Making children much more likely to be put into intensive care when they have the flu; they stay in the hospital longer, and they’re more likely to need breathing tubes than kids who aren’t exposed to SHS




    Now tell me cigarettes are not worse than guns
    There are only TWO times when you can have too much ammo... When you are on fire or when you are drowning...

  13. #73
    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faisji View Post
    Minimalizatin of view at its best.
    Do you know that
    Secondhand smoke is classified as a “known human carcinogen” (cancer-causing agent) by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the US National Toxicology Program, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC – a branch of the World Health Organization).

    IARC reported in 2009 that parents who smoked before and during pregnancy were more likely to have a child with hepatoblastoma. This rare liver cancer is thought to start while the child is still in the uterus. Compared with non-smoking parents, the risk was about twice as high if only one parent smoked, but nearly 5 times higher when both parents smoked

    Secondhand smoke causes other diseases and death

    Secondhand smoke can be harmful in many ways. Each year in the United States alone, it’s responsible for:

    • An estimated 42,000 deaths from heart disease in people who are current non-smokers
    • About 7,000 lung cancer deaths in non-smoking adults
    • Worse asthma and asthma-related problems in up to 1 million asthmatic children
    • Between 150,000 and 300,000 lower respiratory tract (lung and bronchus) infections in children under 18 months of age, with 7,500 to 15,000 hospitalizations each year
    • Making children much more likely to be put into intensive care when they have the flu; they stay in the hospital longer, and they’re more likely to need breathing tubes than kids who aren’t exposed to SHS




    Now tell me cigarettes are not worse than guns
    I am not sure where you are trying to take the argument. I am not arguing about causes of deaths.

    The highest percentage of human deaths is due to cardiovascular diseases. Does that make beef worse than cigarettes?

    The reason I am talking about de-weaponising is because of the use of firearms in crimes and terrorist acts in Pakistan.

    I think it is absurd to compare firearms with cigarettes and
    1.kitchen knives
    2.lego blocks
    3.hardware tools
    4.chairs
    5.mirrors
    6.bed pegs
    7.glass crockery
    8.Any stationary(particularly pens and pencils)
    9.cars
    10.motorcycles
    11...........
    12..............

    as the rest are not used as a weapon in commission of a criminal act. Out of all these, only the gun was designed to kill, to take life of another human being. Firearms in Pakistan are being misused by some.
    Last edited by skywalker233; 23-07-2015 at 10:15 PM.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
    No matter how bad your situation seems, there is always another for whom things are worse.

  14. #74
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    As far as im concerned the issue is education about guns, and strict regularization of the processes involved.
    No more of this grey-market nonsense regarding guns. The process to apply, and do all sorts of other tasks should be clearly defined and set out.
    The rules involved should be crystal clear and set proper boundries. All automatics perma-banned, bolt actions and single shots + semi autos of .22 lr alongside shotguns in hunting loads ( birdshot or buckshot) on a stage one licence and pistols and semi auto rifles on a stage two licence ( Slugs for shotguns are also on a stage two licence )

    If we want to curb aerial firing and other stupid acts, plus crimes with licenced weapons, its simple. A mandatory account of every round fired. You walk in the firing range, your ammo is sorted through a counting machine beforehand and you collect your casings and show them while leaving. You take the same casings to your dealer, he looks at them, he takes them,( after counting via machine ) and allows you to purchase more ammo. Nobody will fire nonsensically anymore after they know they will be arrested the second they try to buy more ammo and cannot show that their casings were fired at a range.

    This requirement can be waived in the case of self defence.

    Coming up short or failing to provide a account of every round fired is a federal offence, 3 months in prison or 5% of total assets owned value must be given as a fine.

    Stage one licences and weapons have no real requirement to show ammo casings afterward, as they are pretty much only hunting and plinking weapons.
    stage two, full blown checking of what round fired, where round fired and why round fired.

    Finally a tightly strung licencing process. written test + practical test and a one year delay between applying and obtaining the licence. Throw in multiple trips to the offices throughout the year= The harder it is , the less wannabes ( people who arent gun enthusiasts or fearful for their own lives ) will be able to get a firearm.

    But all in all this is nothing but talk. Nothing will happen and nobody will do anything.

  15. #75
    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    @Faisji

    brother like I said "I have limited understanding of the subject" so let not be too harsh in our criticism its only an opinion and I am also totally open to the possibility that I am wrong.

    1. sound mindedness (psychological evaluation)
    a complete psych evaluation. to screen out anyone with suicidal or homicidal or otherwise trouble-cidle tendencies. lols!
    (Very easy to fake.You need a few months of Physcologist meetings to help form even a opion.Most physcopaths can fool even the best trained of professionals)

    yes brother you are right. I agree with you. but still... a psych evaluation is better than no evaluation at all. do you disagree?

    2. background check (police verification)
    no previous criminal record, no record of any suspicious activity or no record of any family duels or no known gang or clan associations.
    (Without a comprehensive background data base for at least previous 15 years on each applicants,it is impossible.Also my clan is about 800000 and lives in 2 countries.I cannot be judged by that)

    please accept my sincerest apologies. I may not have been able to paint a clear picture. I meant a simple background check or a character certificate from police is still better than nothing to verify a person's criminal history.

    as far as clan thing is concerned, I feel like I may have offended you. I didn't mean clan in that sense. strictly speaking, I meant gang or otherwise association with any organization involved in criminal activities. i hope you do not mind. I didn't mean to offend you. I am sorry still.

    3. credible reason (in-depth interview by a magistrate)
    applicant must give a valid reason. aerial firing on weddings or to show off in front of friends and family are not valid reasons.
    (Totally agree but how hard is to write "protection")

    brother isn't protection is a valid reason? to me personal/self protection is a very valid reason and everyone of us is entitled to have some form of "personal protection".

    I can think of couple more reasons for personal protection. I am sure you would agree with most of them if not all. 1. sports 2. collection 3. hunting and so on.


    4. Neighbor's approval (two or more neighbors must approve)
    Neighbors must approve and testify of the personal character of the applicant. THIS IS A TOUGH ONE.
    (In india they do someting similar,but all upper caste get licenses)

    brother I merely suggested neighbors approval because neighbors usually are well aware of a person's character, habits, friends and social circle.

    kindly allow me to paint a picture based on your good self as an example. I am sure your neighbors they will gladly approve any firearm ownership request that you may have because of your well respected and honorable status and personality amongst your neighbors. wouldn't you agree?


    5. Firearm owner's guarantee (two or more firearms owners must give their personal guarantee)
    two firearms owners in applicant's circle must give their personal guarantee that the applicant is a person of sound mind and character. THIS IS A TOUGH ONE.
    (Not really as it is not practical.Do you want to go to jail if your buddy decides to fire a few shots in the air or at someone)

    my dear brother, like I said "it is a tough one". it is indeed difficult. but guess what? I for one, would gladly extend my personal guarantee for your application. would u like to know why?

    because I know for certain that you are a responsible person and hence you will be a responsible firearm owner and will prove to be an asset to the gun-community of Pakistan.


    6. Educational Qualification (minimum 14yrs of education)
    a person's education tells alot about a person. plus an educated firearm owner is a careful firearm owner.
    (Is my law degree from University of london any less than a PHD from Vehari university?)

    no brother, it is not a contest of degrees of qualifications. like I said, minimum of 14yrs of education is only to ensure that a person is educated enough to know whats right and wrong.

    ofcourse, I never intended to suggest that one degree is better than other.

    7.Age Limit (25 yrs or older)to select mature firearms owners with predictable emotional responses.
    (Agree with age limit but not the premise)

    lols! I am glad that you agree with something.

    8. Health (physically fit, proper eyesight and whatnot)
    (Thankfully all doctors in pakistan are honest registered and brimming with morals to make sure that only healthy people own arms)

    its just a suggestion brother. my intention was merely to suggest that the applicant should be in a reasonable health to operate a firearm. I never suggested that health standards should be equal to a marathon runner. lols!

    9. Firearms Hazard and Safety Course (conducted by police for applicants)
    a short course conducted by police to ensure that applicant knows how to operate and safely keep a firearms without injuring anyone else.
    (With 1 policeman per 485 citizen we are already behind curve on what police actually should be doing,i fail to see anything practical happening albeit certification factories running out of every police station)

    Bro, I for one would certainly opt for such a course if given a chance. its always better when an experienced instructor demonstrates safe firearms handling.

    in our GTGs we have encountered many times that even seasoned firearm owners and shooters do not know how to safely handle a gun or how to handle themselves in a crowd full of gun lovers. lols!


    10. legal rights and action course (conducted by district bar association)
    a short course by district bar association to ensure that applicant knows his legal rights (limits) in various situations involving firearms and how to legally protect himself/herself in the worst case scenario and what best course of action of take in the event of a firearm use.
    (Not even remotely possible teaching people how to get away with murder is not actually a good thing)

    I am sorry, I may not have been able to clear things here. I didn't mean "how to get away with murder" I only suggested "the right course of action in the event of a firearm discharge".

    my dear brother, would you not like know what do? who to call? how to arrange a lawyer? in the event you have discharged your firearm in self protection or self defense. in my humble opinion, this type of information is critical for every gun owner.


    brother not everyone is a Law Graduate from "University of London". Majority of us would definitely benefit from a little knowledge of the Law.

    11. declaration of source of income / Return Filer
    this will ensure that only those people will get a license whose source of income is documented and they pay their taxes. applicant must have filed returns for the last 5 years without any lapse.
    (Millionaires commit murders too)

    please don't confuse gun owner, gun lovers, firearm enthusiasts with murderers bro. its not about how much money you got either. its about documentation of the economy. isn't it our national responsibility to contribute? . I would urge you not to disagree.

    12. certification from local rifle association
    local NRA/FRA/PRA/PARA (whichever applicable) must give their recommendation regarding what type of weapon/license applicant deserves or whether applicant doesn't deserve to have a weapon in the first place.
    (How do they know me?)

    of course brother they don't know you or me. but a brief interaction is enough to maximize the possibility that the applicant will turn out to be a responsible gun owner.

    take your good self as an example here. I don't know you personally but in our interactions here on PG I have come to know that you are a respectable member of our society and a true gun lover. I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I ever have to vouch for you.



    in the end brother, please understand that any system no matter how fool proof can be fooled by those with means and resolve. however, this doesn't justify that we get rid of all systems.

    think of it like this. we all know that there are work arounds (some less than legal and some potentially life threatening) to getting a driver's license but does that mean we close our eyes and start handing out drivers' licenses to everyone?

    Like I said, I am pro de-weaponizing but de-weaponizing of illegal and unregistered firearms only.

    Regards.
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

  16. #76
    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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  17. #77
    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    Some Gun Control humor for you guys.

    Regards.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave."
    James Burgh, Political Disquisitions, 1774

  18. #78
    Enthusiast khanjee666's Avatar
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  19. #79
    Lord of War Survivalist's Avatar
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    Please Khanji666, with due respect note that this UN document is fake. Simply there is no such commission and the format is like news printed on letterhead. Please refer to following;

    The document is persuasive enough to have been picked up by pro-gun advocates on a few message boards and Facebook pages. But is it real?

    When we checked with the United Nations, a spokesman declared it a fake.

    "I checked the document number on our internal document system, and the reply I got back now was simply, ‘There is no document matching your request,’ said Farhan Haq, associate spokesperson for the Secretary-General. "The document number (A/CN.11/L.72) doesn't conform to our standard system, in any case."

    In addition, Haq said, "there is no such body as a ‘Civilian Weapons Confiscation Study Group.’ Nor does the United Nations involve itself in confiscating weapons from member states."

    Finally, Haq said, "the use of blue ink, some of the type font and the scanner icon in the bottom right-hand corner are not found in real U.N. documents. So, in several different ways, this document is fake."

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-media-says-c/
    All That Is Necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing!

  20. #80
    Lord of War Survivalist's Avatar
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    Indirectly Lord Macaulay praised not indians but Muslim rulers and administration of last centuries who brought India to this stage, and than he informed of his/British strategy how to achieve their malicious agenda.
    All That Is Necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing!

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