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Thread: A bullet with our name: De-weaponising Pakistan will not be easy

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    A bullet with our name: De-weaponising Pakistan will not be easy

    Author: SHARMEEN OBAID CHINOY
    Published in Dawn, Sunday Magazine, July 19th, 2015

    Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1195057/

    Living with his parents in a village near Sialkot, Qasim Ali was everyone’s favourite child. On most afternoons, he played cricket outdoors with his best friend, Saqlain.

    One afternoon, a neighbourhood wedding procession began to make its way down the same street that Qasim played cricket in. The two best friends, along with two others watched the bridegroom and his family and friends as they celebrated with dhols. Then suddenly, a member of the wedding party began firing in the air — an apparent act of celebration.
    As bullets flew, one hit Qasim straight in the chest and he died. Two other bullets hit his other friends, one was seriously injured but the third did not survive.

    Across the country in Lahore, Hamza Elahi was a second year A levels student at Lahore Grammar School and was his teachers’ favourite student.
    On June 2, 2012, Hamza was out on a drive with one of his close friends, when he was killed. Shaan, the young man who shot him, claims that it was an accident but Humza’s family believes there was some form of jealousy that led to this incident. Whatever the reason, Hamza’s family no longer has a loved one. Hamza’s father Shiekh Fazal Elahi says,
    I regret not being able to see and hear Hamza speak one last time. My life is full of darkness without him.
    We may not realise it but our lives are in danger — with the world population being between seven and seven and a half billion — while over 12 billion bullets get manufactured yearly across the world. There is definitely a bullet out there with our name on it.

    Festive occasions are a gory reminder: in many homes across Pakistan, there is at least one weapon and a willing weapon wielder.


    The facts about Pakistan, as per the website GunPolicy.org, are alarming: We are placed sixth out of 178 countries, the number of citizens who keep private firearms. We are the third largest importer of firearms in the world. And it doesn’t just end there, only one out of 10 guns is licensed in Pakistan.
    When the Supreme Court took suo moto action in 2013, some vital information was presented to citizens. We found out that the federal government issued over 46,000 prohibited bore licenses. And over 122,000 non-prohibited bore licenses. In its five-year tenure, the Sindh government issued 400,000 licenses. The National Assembly gained 59,000 licenses, which means almost two licenses per member.
    Undoubtedly, the city to be most affected by this rise in arms is Karachi.
    The exact number of legal and illegal weapons in Karachi is uncertain. But one thing is certain — it is a dangerously high number and only a few are campaigning to end this culture.

    “Nobody should have a weapon,” says Naeem. He often quotes Article 256 of the constitution, which states that ‘no private organisation capable of functioning as a military organisation shall be formed and any such organisation shall be illegal.’


    Naeem Sadiq, an activist based in Karachi doesn’t mince his words when he talks about gun control and who is at fault. “My message is not for the people, it is for Pakistan’s parliament, which is the only parliament in the world that possesses over 69,000 prohibited bore licenses,” he says.
    “The Pakistani government is the single largest promoter and patron of weapons in the country thus it has created, promoted and patronised violence; and now violence has gotten out of their hands. This shouldn’t have happened. But since it has happened, we must find a way to control and eradicate this.”
    He believes that the parliament needs to take the first step. “The government should announce a ban on keeping, using, carrying and displaying weapons, whether licensed or unlicensed. This law should apply equally to all — from a common citizen to the prime minister. Nobody should have a weapon,” says Naeem.
    He often quotes Article 256 of the constitution, which states that ‘no private organisation capable of functioning as a military organisation shall be formed and any such organisation shall be illegal.’
    Every day we pick up a newspaper and read about the senseless killings that take place in the cities and towns across this country. We read about Qasim and Hamza, shake our heads and we put the paper down and go back to our lives.
    De-weaponising Pakistan will not be easy. It will require planning, a strategy and passionate advocates. Fundamentally there can be no major change unless the government takes the first step.
    Given the apathy that exists in Pakistan, those affected will probably have to take the first step. In the village where Qasim lost his life, aerial firing is now frowned upon and no wedding parties have dared to fire in the air since that fateful day.
    “There’s so much that I miss about Hamza, especially when he used to be studying and I would go to him, and hold him. I can never forget that. There’s nothing about him that I can ever forget,” says Shabana Elahi, Hamza’s mother.
    Her younger daughter Iqra has started a Facebook page and is campaigning to end gun violence in the country. “Maybe somebody could be saved in the future because of our efforts,” she says.
    Published in Dawn, Sunday Magazine, July 19th, 2015

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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    The writer has given the answer in the essay. only one out of 10 guns is licensed in Pakistan
    The right to own and bear firearms is the difference between a freeman and a slave.
    All the incidents reported are because of lack of education and issuing license without proper background checks and mental health.
    It's like saying the government has banned drugs, best of luck with that.
    The solution is to address the problem rather than charge it and oppress it.
    The funny thing about these journalists is they are always biased, They will always show you the side that is demanded by the masses or they have personal interests in. The above article has no voice of a gun owner who keeps a legal firearm and abides the law.
    The only article they could dig up to boast their claim of deweaponization Article 256 capable of functioning as a military organization.
    A lot of gun enthusiast keep guns for sports and collection. The law can be interpreted in many ways. The sole purpose of this article is to promote the anti gun lobby. Everything has a flip side and in my opinion honest journalism is in which both sides are shown and it is left upon the pubic to decide what to do. We serially need an organization like the NRA its high time someone needs to shut these fools up.
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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    I am very serious about this.
    Let's all start a organization like the NRA, get it registered. We have some experienced advocates with us who will surely help us. We can submit petitions and with enough power and support can make it easy to get a license. It will benefit us many ways.
    Let's all chip in some cash and get down to it. I will discuss this with my lawyer friends and try to find out what we can do.
    But its only possible if we are get support. We can spread awareness about legal use of firearm and gun rights.
    Pakistan Firearm association. PFA
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    If we are the sixth largest nation in the world then its ok to stand sixth on the list of citizens keeping firearms.
    Agreed with Shahroze that its high time that lobbying for gun rights in Pakistan should kick off. Enough of one sided narrative on the issue.
    "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" -Mark Twain

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    I am very serious about this.

    Let's all start a organization like the NRA
    Exactly what I had in my mind no doubt these incidents are too bad not only for the gun community but for the whole nation. THEY WERE AVOIDABLE. To bear legal arms is our right and no one and I mean no one can take this right from us. Let us all unite and form a National Rifle Association Pakistan ( NRAP ) which of course will be sponsored by its members and will fight for it's rights

    , get it registered. We have some experienced advocates with us who will surely help us. We can submit petitions and with enough power and support can make it easy to get a license. It will benefit us many ways.
    Let's all chip in some cash and get down to it.

    At least I am ready to contribute and ready to do whatever it is in my domain.

    I will discuss this with my lawyer friends and try to find out what we can do.
    But its only possible if we are get support.

    We can spread awareness about legal use of firearm and gun rights.
    Pakistan Firearm association. PFA
    A very good idea & initiative must spread it like wild fire.

    Regards

  6. #6
    5 Years ago when i was in Wah Cantt I was walking on service road in Wah and there was a wedding about 15 lanes far from our house i saw the wedding from 2nd floor and their house was decorated with lights etc 2 hours later they were firing at around 9 o clock and i was walking towards my home i heard shots being fired and when i looked up i can easily see few bullets which were red hot and moments later 7-8 bullets came down right next to me distance would be like 1 - 2 feet away. i took shelter near a covered wall T shaped like wall and planned movement by taking cover from house to house. and reached home unharmed. next day one of the bullet was on the hood of our car leaving a dent. which was parked outside. one same incident happened to one of my aunt but she survived with minor injuries in leg. incident took place in sialkot

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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    This Eid I observed in Bazar and streets: boys playing with realistic looking toy guns, some with lasers. They were shooting each other, some aiming at heads, with plastic pellets. I thought, what are we teaching this generation.

    Pakistan is plagued with any diseases. Corruption, in my opinion, being on the top. I do believe there is also a need to de-weaponise the nation for the good of the country.

    There are those who will object to my stance but it shows maturity to putting aside self interests and working for the interest of majority.


    - - - The tragedy of the commons is a term, originally used by Garett Hardin, to denote a situation where individuals acting independently and rationally according to each's self-interest behave contrary to the best interests of the whole group.

    - - - - Psychologist Karla Ivankovich, PhD, an adjunct professor atthe University of Illinois, Springfield says it’s important to understand the results of self-serving attitudes, especially within the younger generation. “Much of this falls into line with both Piaget and Kholberg’s stages of moral development, which address how individuals justify their actions if placed in similar moral dilemmas at various stages throughout the lifespan,” she explains. “The younger you are, the less likely you are going to be to consider what is good for the group. This is typical of adolescence, where egocentrism is a central factor in decision making.



    - - - We have to decide what is in the best interest of the group ie Pakistan.


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    Last edited by skywalker233; 21-07-2015 at 07:49 PM.
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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    Can you stop accidents by banning cars?
    It's not the object that causes crime but how it is used.
    Education Education, I can't stress enough. Education is the solution.
    All the developed countries have legal gun ownership, take Switzerland for example everyone owns a military rifle and has to take a certain course at least once a year and gun crime is non existent.
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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    Can you stop accidents by banning cars?

    Yes. Car accidents can be stopped by banning cars. If there are no cars there won't be any car accidents. Though, it is not practical.

    It's not the object that causes crime but how it is used..

    Not a valid argument.

    Education Education, I can't stress enough. Education is the solution.

    What does education have to do with de-weaponising.

    All the developed countries have legal gun ownership, take Switzerland for example everyone owns a military rifle and has to take a certain course at least once a year and gun crime is non existent.

    Do you consider Pakistan a developed nation ? Are you seriously comparing Pakistan with Switzerland ? Switzerland is a country which has evolved and matured. Because of Switzerland's long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts. Professional soldiers constitute only 5% of the military and the rest are conscripts or volunteers. The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home. Pakistan, on the other hand, has its own set of unique problems.
    ...................................
    Last edited by skywalker233; 19-07-2015 at 11:35 PM.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    I have never seen a Doctor who cures the illness but not its core.
    Education has everything to do with it.
    You will not see children playing with toy guns like that, Parents will be more responsible.
    Proper gun education would be given and after training/assessment licenses would be given.
    All the gun enthusiasts owners I know have never shot someone or want to..... What do you think real problem is then.
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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    I have never seen a Doctor who cures the illness but not its core.
    Education has everything to do with it.
    You will not see children playing with toy guns like that, Parents will be more responsible.
    Proper gun education would be given and after training/assessment licenses would be given.
    All the gun enthusiasts owners I know have never shot someone or want to..... What do you think real problem is then.
    Can you please define "education" ?

    How do you know if a person is "educated" ?

    Kashif Chisti according to Dawn News is educated too. (1st sentence, 2nd Paragraph). Luckily no one was hurt.
    http://www.dawn.com/news/1191670
    Last edited by skywalker233; 20-07-2015 at 12:15 AM.
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    Simple people, simple minds.
    Those who have not paid attention enough to a certain thing and performed detailed study have no right to comment on it. This applies everywhere, from anti-gun people, to those who preach against a certain group of people.

    Often you can ask them to explain what exactly this thing is that they are trying to ban and why it will work. No answer. Its based more on emotion and the perception that one entire group or thing is inherently evil.

    Shahroze, ill back that idea....but starting a gun rights organisation in pakistan.. you will need some serious backing and motivation.

  13. #13
    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    First of all. Forming an organization that is going to fight of our rights and only promote legal ans safe use of firearms is very important. That organization will moniter gun license and will lay down certain rules and regulations for those who can get firearms.
    Those with psychological disorders will not be granted license.
    Those with Criminal record of any sort including violence theft and vandalism shall not be granted license.
    Those who have any cases against them in any court shall not be granted license.
    Those who have borrowed big sum of money and have not repaid or are in debt shall not be issued license.
    Application will be sent to Police station who will verify the persons background from neighbors, family and other sources than it will be processed further
    Those who are eligible for license
    Hunters, showing valid proof that they hunt getting all hunting permits sorted out then getting arms license.
    Collectors, Showing genuine interest in collecting firearms, This will be judged after checking the net income and status of living.
    Sports, Who have registered themselves in gun clubs and participate in regional, national level games.

    Individuals who want to get the license must register themselves with the association.

    Education is awareness and courses like the NCC or whatever it was called where students had to fire guns.
    Media should play positive role and programs teaching gun laws and ethics should be aired. Children from a very young age should be taught firearms are not toys.

    Basic rules
    Always point in safe direction
    Treat every gun as loaded
    finger off trigger
    Always look behind left and right of your target
    Only point where you plan to shoot

    ID cards should be incorporated with Vehicle license number, driving license number and weapon license number.
    Online system verification of checking all of the above in one go.

    certain areas where weapons are Totally not allowed, Near courts, Parliaments, Police stations, public transport places.
    You can't carry weapon in these places.

    Children from a very young age are taught porn and drugs are bad just like that gun rights and laws should be taught.
    Situational awareness should be taught.
    If this does not work. Ban them
    But kindly tell me weed and powder are totally banned are they still not available to the general public?
    If you see history when ever countries were weaponized bloody massacres followed.....
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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by czman View Post
    Simple people, simple minds.
    Those who have not paid attention enough to a certain thing and performed detailed study have no right to comment on it. This applies everywhere, from anti-gun people, to those who preach against a certain group of people.

    Often you can ask them to explain what exactly this thing is that they are trying to ban and why it will work. No answer. Its based more on emotion and the perception that one entire group or thing is inherently evil.

    Shahroze, ill back that idea....but starting a gun rights organisation in pakistan.. you will need some serious backing and motivation.
    This is beginning to get good.

    Instead of presenting any reasonable argument you are getting personal. To me this shows your mental level.

    May I inquire about your education in sociology or psychology and your expertise with firearms?
    Last edited by skywalker233; 20-07-2015 at 12:55 AM.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    First of all. Forming an organization that is going to fight of our rights and only promote legal ans safe use of firearms is very important. That organization will moniter gun license and will lay down certain rules and regulations for those who can get firearms.
    Those with psychological disorders will not be granted license.
    Those with Criminal record of any sort including violence theft and vandalism shall not be granted license.
    Those who have any cases against them in any court shall not be granted license.
    Those who have borrowed big sum of money and have not repaid or are in debt shall not be issued license.
    Application will be sent to Police station who will verify the persons background from neighbors, family and other sources than it will be processed further
    Those who are eligible for license
    Hunters, showing valid proof that they hunt getting all hunting permits sorted out then getting arms license.
    Collectors, Showing genuine interest in collecting firearms, This will be judged after checking the net income and status of living.
    Sports, Who have registered themselves in gun clubs and participate in regional, national level games.

    Individuals who want to get the license must register themselves with the association.

    Education is awareness and courses like the NCC or whatever it was called where students had to fire guns.
    Media should play positive role and programs teaching gun laws and ethics should be aired. Children from a very young age should be taught firearms are not toys.

    Basic rules
    Always point in safe direction
    Treat every gun as loaded
    finger off trigger
    Always look behind left and right of your target
    Only point where you plan to shoot

    ID cards should be incorporated with Vehicle license number, driving license number and weapon license number.
    Online system verification of checking all of the above in one go.

    certain areas where weapons are Totally not allowed, Near courts, Parliaments, Police stations, public transport places.
    You can't carry weapon in these places.

    Children from a very young age are taught porn and drugs are bad just like that gun rights and laws should be taught.
    Situational awareness should be taught.
    If this does not work. Ban them
    But kindly tell me weed and powder are totally banned are they still not available to the general public?
    If you see history when ever countries were weaponized bloody massacres followed.....
    Dream on
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
    No matter how bad your situation seems, there is always another for whom things are worse.

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    Enthusiast malik94's Avatar
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    considering the law and order situation in Pakistan ,the increasing crime rate and the complete ineptness of the LEA's in protecting the lives and wealth of the people .I think that outright banning firearms is outrageous.The government should first take stern action against all political parties including their own because almost all the criminal organizations in Pakistan involved in land grabbing,extortion and kidnapping for ransom etc either work directly for politicians or atleast have some sort of political support.regarding the policy for keeping npb firearms thier should be no restrictions except that the government should make pshycological tests, background checks, license computerization ,basic training and tests for firearm safety mandatory. Owning p.b weapons should be allowed for everyone but the owners should only be allowed to keep them inside safes in government registered gun ranges and/or police stations but no where else .so owners can use them only for recreational use, competitive shooting and target practice only. The Government should increase liscence issuing and renewal fee to finance all the things that I mentioned they can even allow international gun manufacturers to do buisness in Pakistan like they do in the united states. they would be more than willing to help the government finance this as Pakistan has such a large gun market p.s this will bring down prices aswell and will be beneficial to the economy. smuggling ,illegal trade of firearms and using guns for any other purpose except use in ranges and SD/HD should be sternly dealt with.I know my ideas sound to far-fetched considering we live in Pakistan.but imho all these measures will mean that only sane,responsible and law-abiding citizens will be able to keep guns.

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    Enthusiast malik94's Avatar
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    Oh shahroze bhai has already mentioned all the things which came to my mind!

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    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malik94 View Post
    considering the law and order situation in Pakistan ,the increasing crime rate and the complete ineptness of the LEA's in protecting the lives and wealth of the people .I think that outright banning firearms is outrageous.The government should first take stern action against all political parties including their own because almost all the criminal organizations in Pakistan involved in land grabbing,extortion and kidnapping for ransom etc either work directly for politicians or atleast have some sort of political support.regarding the policy for keeping npb firearms thier should be no restrictions except that the government should make pshycological tests, background checks, license computerization ,basic training and tests for firearm safety mandatory. Owning p.b weapons should be allowed for everyone but the owners should only be allowed to keep them inside safes in government registered gun ranges and/or police stations but no where else .so owners can use them only for recreational use, competitive shooting and target practice only. The Government should increase liscence issuing and renewal fee to finance all the things that I mentioned they can even allow international gun manufacturers to do buisness in Pakistan like they do in the united states. they would be more than willing to help the government finance this as Pakistan has such a large gun market p.s this will bring down prices aswell and will be beneficial to the economy. smuggling ,illegal trade of firearms and using guns for any other purpose except use in ranges and SD/HD should be sternly dealt with.I know my ideas sound to far-fetched considering we live in Pakistan.but imho all these measures will mean that only sane,responsible and law-abiding citizens will be able to keep guns.
    Let's see. malik94. 94 could be for the year you were born, than would make you 21 years old.

    Yes, I would expect a response like this from a 21 year old.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
    No matter how bad your situation seems, there is always another for whom things are worse.

  19. #19
    Enthusiast skywalker233's Avatar
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    Had fun but bedtime. Got to sleep. Good night and may the force be with you.
    "One eye man a king in blind man country"
    No matter how bad your situation seems, there is always another for whom things are worse.

  20. #20
    Enthusiast malik94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    First of all. Forming an organization that is going to fight of our rights and only promote legal ans safe use of firearms is very important. That organization will moniter gun license and will lay down certain rules and regulations for those who can get firearms.
    Those with psychological disorders will not be granted license.
    Those with Criminal record of any sort including violence theft and vandalism shall not be granted license.
    Those who have any cases against them in any court shall not be granted license.
    Those who have borrowed big sum of money and have not repaid or are in debt shall not be issued license.
    Application will be sent to Police station who will verify the persons background from neighbors, family and other sources than it will be processed further
    Those who are eligible for license
    Hunters, showing valid proof that they hunt getting all hunting permits sorted out then getting arms license.
    Collectors, Showing genuine interest in collecting firearms, This will be judged after checking the net income and status of living.
    Sports, Who have registered themselves in gun clubs and participate in regional, national level games.

    Individuals who want to get the license must register themselves with the association.

    Education is awareness and courses like the NCC or whatever it was called where students had to fire guns.
    Media should play positive role and programs teaching gun laws and ethics should be aired. Children from a very young age should be taught firearms are not toys.

    Basic rules
    Always point in safe direction
    Treat every gun as loaded
    finger off trigger
    Always look behind left and right of your target
    Only point where you plan to shoot

    ID cards should be incorporated with Vehicle license number, driving license number and weapon license number.
    Online system verification of checking all of the above in one go.

    certain areas where weapons are Totally not allowed, Near courts, Parliaments, Police stations, public transport places.
    You can't carry weapon in these places.

    Children from a very young age are taught porn and drugs are bad just like that gun rights and laws should be taught.
    Situational awareness should be taught.
    If this does not work. Ban them
    But kindly tell me weed and powder are totally banned are they still not available to the general public?
    If you see history when ever countries were weaponized bloody massacres followed.....
    Bro I completely agree with you but the NRA is so successful only because of the constitutional protected right to bear arms and its backed by huge multinational gun manufacturing companies.we dont have both here in Pakistan!

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