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Thread: 12 guage shaheen made by pof

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    12 guage shaheen made by pof

    AoA. what is the difference amoung #4 , 4Super ,and 4Exel 12 guage shaneen cartgs made by pof .is the power of powder is different?,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zubair ali View Post
    AoA. what is the difference among #4 , 4 Super ,and 4Exel 12 gauge shaneen cartgs made by pof .is the power of powder is different?,
    as per my understanding after going through their brochure, the difference in regular,Super and Excel is the shot load, which for #4 is 31, 34, and 36 gms respectively.
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    To provide a 1250fps muzzle velocity the charge also increases as the shot load increases. So you can expect a higher recoil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beretta8 View Post
    To provide a 1250fps muzzle velocity the charge also increases as the shot load increases. So you can expect a higher recoil.
    ee
    please note this is not true, when shot load is increased the propellant or charge is reduced as otherwise the pressure will be increased to dangerous levels.
    JU

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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter60 View Post
    ee
    please note this is not true, when shot load is increased the propellant or charge is reduced as otherwise the pressure will be increased to dangerous levels.
    Shaheen #4 Pellets 180 Shot load 31grams
    Shaheen #4 Super Pellets 210 Shot load 34grams
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter60 View Post
    ee
    please note this is not true, when shot load is increased the propellant or charge is reduced as otherwise the pressure will be increased to dangerous levels.
    Col sahab I greatly respect your opinion. I am not going to challenge you. you have greater knowledge and experience. You also reload your own ammo so you know what is the science behind it.
    excel and super have a greater recoil. They have more load weight and they definitely have a greater range than the regular shaheen. physics dictate that in order to accelerate a mass to a certain speed a particular force is required. F=MA. Larger the mass higher the force required to accelerate the mass to the 1300fps.
    Likewise a 3" mag has a higher load and extended range and increased recoil. Mag and super mag cartridges have thicker barell, receiver and weight a lot more, in comparison to 2-3/4" or a 2.5" chamber gun. This is in order to compensate for higher pressure.
    Last edited by beretta8; 10-07-2015 at 03:55 PM.

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    Senior Moderator 12GAUGE's Avatar
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    +1 Skeeter60 Sb.

    compared to POF's standard hunting cartridges Excel and Super have higher shotload and reduced propellent to keep pressure within acceptable limit.

    higher recoil in EXCEL and SUPER cartridges is a direct result ("for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - Newton's third law of motion) of the increased weight of the shot.

    Regards.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 12GAUGE View Post
    +1 Skeeter60 Sb.

    compared to POF's standard hunting cartridges Excel and Super have higher shotload and reduced propellent to keep pressure within acceptable limit.

    higher recoil in EXCEL and SUPER cartridges is a direct result ("for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - Newton's third law of motion) of the increased weight of the shot.

    Regards.
    Agreed higher mass has higher weight greater reaction and momentum.
    Therefore by F=MA, increasing mass at same rate of acceleration will give you more reaction.
    Lets suppose you keep the force a constant (due to powder Count being same) and increase the mass the your acceleration should decrease. Leading to less muzzle velocity.
    However with the super and excel. As F=MA. If we increase the mass we require more force for the same rate of acceleration to achieve a 1250fps muzzle velocity. V^2=(U^2)+2 ax. According to equation a lesser acceleration will give smaller muzzle velocity. And for higher mass we need to more acceleration.
    If we follow pof wahs claims for less powder mass for more shot load. Where is the deficit energy coming from.

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    I avoid arguments, but for your sake I will explain as best as I can, in the simplest terms. By the way I am not an engineer I left the Engineering university Lahore in 1967 to join the army.
    All cartridges use only a portion of the energy in a propellant charge. Most of it is wasted as all powder does not burn inside the barrel some percentage burns outside the barrel, giving flash and smoke you have have noticed. Some is wasted in heating the barrel.
    Also the greater the mass or greater the resistance to the propellant gases the faster these burn and higher and higher pressure results. It is an auto cycle that sets in. Higher mass of bullet or shot charge thereby also increases the powder efficiency or in other words less powder results in comparative energy and pressure levels. Pressure in all guns and rifles is CONSTANT no cartridge goes above safe level whether it is a 22-250 or a .375 H&H Magnum all have the same maximum pressure. There are several other variables beyond the scope of this discussion.
    Most hunters are not aware a standard 12 gauge cartridge usually will have higher velocity than a Magnum or Super cartridge with more shot. What gives it more killing power? I"ll give you an example: a duck hit by four pellets from a Super with its heavier charge will drop it at 50 yards where as the 3 pellets from a standard cartridge may not drop it at that range immediately.
    One more thing I want you to know is that shot gun pellets have the worst ballistic co effecient and if they start at 1200 ft sec (super sonic) the deceleration is very steep; the moment these are sub sonic 1120 ft/sec or so the deceleration is much lower. Therefore the small velocity edge any magnum cartridge may have is lost within first ten yards of travel and by the time these reach at 40 yards these are at nearly identical velocities. Cartridge pattern at subsonic muzzle velocity has fewer blow holes or a more uniform and denser pattern, when compared with high velocity cartridges due to blow holes in their pattern; giving a better kill ratio or fewer winged birds in case of standard cartridges at ranges of 40 yards or so.
    In ballistics there are so many variables and a single variance or a couple combined can have results beyond simple common sense. I am sorry if I have further complicated the issue. Please read twice and comprehend and then may be we can have some more discussion. Remember magnum or Super Cartridges do not increase the range; these help in cleanly downing larger birds like Mallards, Geese etc. Matching shot size to game is the key to clean kills.
    Last edited by Skeeter60; 11-07-2015 at 10:45 AM.
    JU

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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    So in the end shaheen number 4 super 34gram wont have more range only more knock down power?
    Communist until you get rich; Feminist until you get married; Atheist until the airplane starts falling.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter60 View Post
    I avoid arguments, but for your sake I will explain as best as I can, in the simplest terms. By the way I am not an engineer I left the Engineering university Lahore in 1967 to join the army. power? I"ll give you an
    In science there is no arguments there is only definitive logic. Thank you for such an elaborate explanation, this seems like a more logical explanation which you could have provided earlier to avoid confusion.
    So due to increased mass there will increased resistance. Therefore result in a higher initial instantaneous compression making way for a complete and efficient combustion. So less powder is required as efficency increase.

  12. #12
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    Excel Cartridge Velocity 320m/s
    Ordinary Cartridge Velocity 300m/s

    Why ??????
    Dr. Awan

  13. #13
    I have just gone through Hercules manuals. For rifle it is hundred percent true, greater mass, more resistance, increased time of exposure of the primer flash to combustion, therefore less powder is needed due to increased efficency.
    However for shotguns it is not the same it is even more complicated. It is dependent on certain factors.
    type of primer used. American primers are generally bigger than European ones. Efficency of flash produced from a primer varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Therefore more efficient primers require less powder.

    The type of wad used. Plastic wads are compressible. When combustion is sparked the expanded gases have more time. As they expand the plastic compresses, the burning gases stay closer for longer. In contrast to plastic wads , paper wads have no compression region. When combustion is sparked the load instantaneously ejects into the chamber. Plastic wads produce higher efficency therefore requiring less powder.

    Powder formulation. Some powders burn faster than others ,same have a slow rate of burn therefore requiring different masses of powder.


    3.5" max pressure is 11 500 psi
    3" max pressure is 10 500 psi
    2.75" max pressure is 10,000 psi

    However ideal pressure should be between
    8500 psi to 10,000 psi most cartridges run in the 9 region.
    Last edited by beretta8; 11-07-2015 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beretta8 View Post
    In science there is no arguments there is only definitive logic. Thank you for such an elaborate explanation, this seems like a more logical explanation which you could have provided earlier to avoid confusion.
    So due to increased mass there will increased resistance. Therefore result in a higher initial instantaneous compression making way for a complete and efficient combustion. So less powder is required as efficency increase.
    Sir I am sorry I should have given the details earlier. Hope yo"ll pardon me.
    The primer sizes as some one has said are not bigger or smaller, all primers in shotguns are same size from 10 gauge to 28 gauge and have same peculiarities how ever some in practice are hotter. SHAHROZE is absolutely right in what he has said. All components all over the world are standardised by SAAMI.
    JU

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    Quote Originally Posted by shahroze View Post
    so in the end shaheen number 4 super 34gram wont have more range only more knock down power?
    yes absolutely
    JU

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    Member Extraordinaire shahroze's Avatar
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    But Sir, #4 super has more pellets than 4 normal, I suppose that makes #4 super pellets less in size than regular 4.
    If that's the case aren't the less weight pellets bound to lose energy quicker?

    And from what I have heard and read. The magnum and super magnum loads give more range for higher flying targets? Because they have more velocity
    Communist until you get rich; Feminist until you get married; Atheist until the airplane starts falling.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeeter60 View Post
    Sir I am sorry I should have given the details earlier. Hope yo"ll pardon me.
    Colonal sahab I feel absolutely ashamed. you shouldn't be presenting your apologies. I am a young man and aspire to be a top rifle man like you. You have a wealth of knowledge and experience. An uncommon attribute in today generation. your stature is often revered by most. Malik Atta once said " I am the Last of the dinosaurs". You are certainly one of these persona, a gap I see in fillable by today's nation. People like you have a methodical approach and meticulous attention to detail.

  18. #18
    I read in an American reloading blog that fiocchi primers and fiocchi shells are smaller in diameter. It said if you reload with remington or winchester primers (using a fiocchi shells) the diameter of slightly bigger primers will increase the diameter of primer seat. And then if you tried to reload the same fiocchi shell with a fiocchi primer it might fall out.

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    Beretta 8

    One thing all proper Reloading Manuals and old gurus like me will tell you NEVER EVER PICK UP ANYTHING from a Forum. There is no way of finding out what is the experience and knowledge of the author. This is why all Forums disclaim any responsibility.
    All Cartridges of the given bore are exactly same in all Dimensions. Other wise you will see burst cartridge cases and some times this can cause serious injury and burst guns.
    Look forward to questions from you; one more thing about Magnum Cartridges, these are 2 3/4, 3 inch or even 3 1/2 Cartridges these do have more of SLOW BURNING propellant but the Chamber space is greater due to longer chamber and cartridge case hence the pressure does not exceed laid down pressures. Pressure is related to space available. There are too many intricacies and now that you want to learn i will do so eagerly.
    JU

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    Quote Originally Posted by beretta8 View Post
    Colonal sahab I feel absolutely ashamed. you shouldn't be presenting your apologies. I am a young man and aspire to be a top rifle man like you. You have a wealth of knowledge and experience. An uncommon attribute in today generation. your stature is often revered by most. Malik Atta once said " I am the Last of the dinosaurs". You are certainly one of these persona, a gap I see in fillable by today's nation. People like you have a methodical approach and meticulous attention to detail.
    I am in my 68th year and you are like my sons. I don't know you, but from your last post I can say with conviction you are from a very good family and back ground.
    JU

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