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Asiftt
11-07-2011, 12:27 PM
Salam Dears,

I have heard a lot from dealers , friends and web, to load your magazines max upto 80% of its total capacity i.e if its 15 rounds then load it 13 -14 max. Especially if u plan to keep mags loaded for long times. So does it effects or its just another myth?

Denovo87
11-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Modern springs are made to withstand the constant pressure they are made for, a spring definitely has a certain life that it will serve for but by filling mags to 80% will not help improving spring's natural life, it has to loosen after a certain period of time no matter you keep it depressed to full or half IMHO.

HussainAli
11-07-2011, 12:46 PM
Dear Asiftt Bro, As you are that magazines are supported by "Coil Spring" pushing up bullets one by one, the max numbers of bullets occupies full length of the magazine leaving NO room for the spring to be presses further or in other words NO recoil suppression left.

This max suppression position of the spring if remains same for long period like months or years, will sure reduce the its capacity of Max Expansion, meaning if your spring is too much pressed so upon expansion it is likely to malfunction last remaining bullets.

Although next generation Handguns are using good quality springs and are more likely to longer suppression life but I assume these are also made of metal alloy and metal have its own Life Cycle. So these springs have much life then the older one but again the rocket science is sure there about metal springs.

SO it is always recommended for long duration storage or daily carries magazines to be 80% to 85% loaded.

Hope this clears its pure mechanical rule and nothing to do with Guns (But affects our Handguns performance).

Regards

Huzaifa
11-07-2011, 01:10 PM
@ HussainAli: Thanks brother for another nice information. Now I will use 80% load just for Safe Side.

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 04:16 PM
Comparing and selecting handgun including Mag Capacity parameter becomes nullify if one has to load e.g. 17-2 = 15 bullets while prefered the pistol upon pistol with 15 bullets capacity mag. Another best practice may be to have 3 mags atleast, keep one empty and rotate empty mag on weekly basis.

HussainAli
11-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Comparing and selecting handgun including Mag Capacity parameter becomes nullify if one has to load e.g. 17-2 = 15 bullets while prefered the pistol upon pistol with 15 bullets capacity mag. Another best practice may be to have 3 mags atleast, keep one empty and rotate empty mag on weekly basis.


Dear Survivalist Bro, Very nice suggestion, and this is very acceptable too, as we may full a mag and use it with 24 hours no harm but keeping it like this for weeks /months /years will sure make difference!!!!

Nice Suggestion.

Regards

Madham
11-07-2011, 04:41 PM
IMHO it makes no difference as Denovo87 explained.

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 05:32 PM
I have read or listened this pratice somewhere and experts should verify/negate, as a pressure release after every 2 weeks would definetely means longer life for springs, general concept, but need to study properties of springs, will update soon. Thanks Hussain Ali brother.

Ameer
11-07-2011, 05:36 PM
1: Spring is supposed to be kept elastic. Neither should be left totally compressed (15/15) or totally relaxed (0/15) for a long time.

2: It should be properly oiled too when left idle to keep the rust away and then must be loaded to its full capacity once in a while to maintain its spring nature, get it empty after some days to bring it back to extended limit.

3: Special attention is needed by the extra magazine, that is left unattended sometimes or when there are too many guns in collections.

P.S: These are just precautions, otherwise standard metal that is used in springs are rarely prone to mall-function unless used over its life.

regards

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Ok, I was rong! Rotating mags doesn't do a thing to increase spring life. Mags don't heal or refresh themselves when they're unloaded and left unused.

All ROTATING mags does is spread the "wear" over several mags, rather than putting it all on one mag -- delaying the time when the springs must be replaced -- but increasing the number of springs that must be replaced when that time finally arrives.

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 05:43 PM
Of the total, the major force loss for most springs was found to occur in the first 24 hours.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1636629

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 05:47 PM
report of a 1911 magazine that was stored fully loaded for 70+ years and functioned perfectly when tried.

This subject comes up fairly regularly, and in one thread (somewhere, don't know where) a metallurgist reported rather authoritatively that the "wear" on a magazine spring comes from cycling it full to empty and back again, not from compressing the spring and leaving it compressed. So you'll "wear out" a magazine faster if you cycle ammo through it than if you just load it up and leave it.

There was an exception to this general rule, and that is if the spring is compressed beyond some elastic limit (I think he called it). If you compress a spring TOO far it may not come back fully to its uncompressed length and strength, even if you onlly compress it once. The concern arises particularly in high capacity magazines where the last round puts a real scrunch on the spring (design problem) or where you try to squeeze one extra round in (operator error.)

The conclusion was, load 'em up and leave 'em. If you're concerned about potential damage, download by one round as others have suggested, but do not load and unload a mag thinking you're extending the life of the spring.

Since LEOs keep their magazines fully loaded for months on end, I doubt it's much of a problem.

Not really. They typical LEO shoots his gun very little, and then primarily when he's qualifying, which may be as infrequently as once or twice a year.

LEO, with exceptions, are NOT gun USERS or SHOOTERS, but gun CARRIERS. A surprisingly small number of them are truly gun enthusiasts. They could have a mag problem and not know it until its time to use the gun. Then, too, they have armorers who look for things like springs that need replacement...

The only people who seem to suffer from spring burn out in their magazines are the military guys who constantly compress and release springs due to the number of rounds they typically put through service weapons.Compressing and releasing springs do cause long-term wear, but so does compressing them fully when loading them to the max.

Fully loaded 1911 magazines have been found 60 years after they were loaded, and they still worked perfectly.True. But, keep in mind that those are all seven rounders. The same is not true 8 rounders, which have long been the source of problems for 1911 shooters.

Ten-round mags in other guns will work well after long-term storage, but hi-caps can be a problem.

According to the experts, folks like the engineers at Wolff springs, and a metallurgist or two who have participated here and elsewhere, it depends:

Springs wear, over time, through use. Working the springs (flexing them, as in normal use) will cause wear, over time. But they wear FASTER and more dramatically as they are pushed (expanded or compressed) to their design limits.

A well-designed, quality spring in a high-cap mag, left fully loaded and fully compressed will, generally, degrade faster than the same spring downloaded a round or two. But mag design and how the spring was made to work with the mag matters, too.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-204014.html

Survivalist
11-07-2011, 05:48 PM
Degradation: Many types of coil spring are wound in an annealed (soft) condition and then tempered to achieve their strength as a spring. Over time, this tempering can be lost and the spring will sag because it can no longer withstand the loads applied. Such springs can be re-set by annealing, returning to their original length (or deliberately setting them to a different length) and then re-tempering. Damage to springs, such as using oxy-acetylene to cut the end off a car suspension spring to lower a vehicle's ride height, can destroy the tempering in localised areas of the spring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_spring

Asiftt
12-07-2011, 01:29 AM
report of a 1911 magazine that was stored fully loaded for 70+ years and functioned perfectly when tried.

This subject comes up fairly regularly, and in one thread (somewhere, don't know where) a metallurgist reported rather authoritatively that the "wear" on a magazine spring comes from cycling it full to empty and back again, not from compressing the spring and leaving it compressed. So you'll "wear out" a magazine faster if you cycle ammo through it than if you just load it up and leave it.

There was an exception to this general rule, and that is if the spring is compressed beyond some elastic limit (I think he called it). If you compress a spring TOO far it may not come back fully to its uncompressed length and strength, even if you onlly compress it once. The concern arises particularly in high capacity magazines where the last round puts a real scrunch on the spring (design problem) or where you try to squeeze one extra round in (operator error.)

The conclusion was, load 'em up and leave 'em. If you're concerned about potential damage, download by one round as others have suggested, but do not load and unload a mag thinking you're extending the life of the spring.

Since LEOs keep their magazines fully loaded for months on end, I doubt it's much of a problem.

Not really. They typical LEO shoots his gun very little, and then primarily when he's qualifying, which may be as infrequently as once or twice a year.

LEO, with exceptions, are NOT gun USERS or SHOOTERS, but gun CARRIERS. A surprisingly small number of them are truly gun enthusiasts. They could have a mag problem and not know it until its time to use the gun. Then, too, they have armorers who look for things like springs that need replacement...

The only people who seem to suffer from spring burn out in their magazines are the military guys who constantly compress and release springs due to the number of rounds they typically put through service weapons.Compressing and releasing springs do cause long-term wear, but so does compressing them fully when loading them to the max.

Fully loaded 1911 magazines have been found 60 years after they were loaded, and they still worked perfectly.True. But, keep in mind that those are all seven rounders. The same is not true 8 rounders, which have long been the source of problems for 1911 shooters.

Ten-round mags in other guns will work well after long-term storage, but hi-caps can be a problem.

According to the experts, folks like the engineers at Wolff springs, and a metallurgist or two who have participated here and elsewhere, it depends:

Springs wear, over time, through use. Working the springs (flexing them, as in normal use) will cause wear, over time. But they wear FASTER and more dramatically as they are pushed (expanded or compressed) to their design limits.

A well-designed, quality spring in a high-cap mag, left fully loaded and fully compressed will, generally, degrade faster than the same spring downloaded a round or two. But mag design and how the spring was made to work with the mag matters, too.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-204014.html

Dear Bro, now the question arises when a LEO friend visits me and always treat me like i know nothing abt how to take care of my guns n ammo, and always asks me to keep my mags less than 100% capacity.

When a magazine is kept fully loaded, does it builds a compression "memory"?? meaning that if you keep it compressed, the spring will lose it's ability to push the rounds up when it is needed.

What this means in reality is that you have a potential situation where you believe you are safe with 10-15 rounds of ammunition in your mags and if the situation ever arose where you needed your weapon, the first round or maybe two will fire and then stop. The magazine spring will not push the third round up for the slide to load, SO does it happens in anyway in modern firearms.....if the mag springs in real are the culprits why accidentally blame our quality guns...

Denovo87
12-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Dear Bro, now the question arises when a LEO friend visits me and always treat me like i know nothing abt how to take care of my guns n ammo, and always asks me to keep my mags less than 100% capacity.

When a magazine is kept fully loaded, does it builds a compression "memory"?? meaning that if you keep it compressed, the spring will lose it's ability to push the rounds up when it is needed.

What this means in reality is that you have a potential situation where you believe you are safe with 10-15 rounds of ammunition in your mags and if the situation ever arose where you needed your weapon, the first round or maybe two will fire and then stop. The magazine spring will not push the third round up for the slide to load, SO does it happens in anyway in modern firearms.....if the mag springs in real are the culprits why accidentally blame our quality guns...

My very persona; experience in this regard, I am keeping my Beretta's both mags filled to fullest capacity for last 17 years, springs surely are worn out (or loosened) but not to the extant of failure to chamber last round. There are only two signs I noticed/experienced,
1) I easily can load 16 rounds now.
2) Slide doesnot lock back after firing the last round.

Trigger_happy78
12-07-2011, 11:26 AM
I always carry not more then 13 rounds in my Duty, when the limit is 16rounds. Cz mags aren't the best ones around.

Ameer
12-07-2011, 11:43 AM
My very persona; experience in this regard, I am keeping my Beretta's both mags filled to fullest capacity for last 17 years, springs surely are worn out (or loosened) but not to the extant of failure to chamber last round. There are only two signs I noticed/experienced,
1) I easily can load 16 rounds now.
2) Slide doesnot lock back after firing the last round.

I keep my magazines filled to max, but its not for longer times. I have a habit of touching my guns everyday before bed after night teeth brushing. I make sure something is loaded if needed at night (God Forbid), i keep the needed loaded and unload else which are unattended. Very simply i cycle the feed in magazines.

I had one problem in a ruger mag, where spring got stuck after unloading the sixth last round, means next 5 rounds were free floating. it happened couple of times. But it was the ever neglected extra mag, it returned to funtion with cleaning and oiling and further use.

Sir, Getting an extra mag for hot item like yours isn't a problem especially after 17 yrs of professional use. But it may be a worst scenario for out of production handguns.

regards

Trigger_happy78
12-07-2011, 02:34 PM
It is always a good habit to take out the magazine from the pistol and tap the bottom of magazine before leaving or going to bed. You know there might be a lose round which might cause problem.

Denovo87
12-07-2011, 03:00 PM
I keep my magazines filled to max, but its not for longer times. I have a habit of touching my guns everyday before bed after night teeth brushing. I make sure something is loaded if needed at night (God Forbid), i keep the needed loaded and unload else which are unattended. Very simply i cycle the feed in magazines.

I had one problem in a ruger mag, where spring got stuck after unloading the sixth last round, means next 5 rounds were free floating. it happened couple of times. But it was the ever neglected extra mag, it returned to funtion with cleaning and oiling and further use.

Sir, Getting an extra mag for hot item like yours isn't a problem especially after 17 yrs of professional use. But it may be a worst scenario for out of production handguns.

regards

Yep its not a problem, since its the spring only so pair of wolff springs already been ordered.

4311446
12-07-2011, 05:17 PM
Feedback from a metallurgist at AirBus
Springs loose strength over time when exposed to repeated compressed and uncompressed state.
If the book says that mag capacity is 17 rounds then 17 rounds exert a force on the spring which is well within its design limit. If the compressive force applied is within design limit then it won't affect the spring quality irrespective of duration.
Conclusion
Keeping mags fully loaded for extended periods doesn't harm them as much as loading and unloading carts. Its the other variables like temperature variation and exposure to moisture etc which affect the quality of the metal of the spring more.
YMMV

Aquarius
12-07-2011, 05:41 PM
Modern springs are made to withstand the constant pressure they are made for, a spring definitely has a certain life that it will serve for but by filling mags to 80% will not help improving spring's natural life, it has to loosen after a certain period of time no matter you keep it depressed to full or half IMHO

Fully agreed.. +1 Denovo brother.

auto_boy
25-08-2011, 03:54 AM
i always keep my cf-98 mags upto 13 max. just to be on safe side

wadood
25-08-2011, 04:21 AM
Assalam-O-Alaikum!

Now brothers what is the final opinion now we have to loaded mags for long time or short time,put some light on it!

AK47
25-08-2011, 08:59 AM
My very persona; experience in this regard, I am keeping my Beretta's both mags filled to fullest capacity for last 17 years, springs surely are worn out (or loosened) but not to the extant of failure to chamber last round. There are only two signs I noticed/experienced,
1) I easily can load 16 rounds now.
2) Slide doesnot lock back after firing the last round.

Exactly this is a sign of "wear off", thanks Den for sharing here. The "follower" of your Beretta mag seems not to be reaching top level of magazine lips, as to stop the slide. Perhaps just a "milli" short, but short enough to let the slide go forward again. Any help at Brownells.com?? Lolz!

In any case, what caused me most concern in above posts was "degradation" of spring life of empty mags!!! Seems keeping 4-5 rounds in extra mags and storing them away would be better.

As for keeping mags being used for SD/ routine carry, downloaded by 2-3 rounds, well, I do not see why this should be of any issue in today's 15+1/16+1/17+1, yeah even 13+1 handguns, the world's top military force had been using 7+1/8+1 all the way from WW1 to Vietnam and beyond even, hence it's more of a "mental" dislike towards lower capped mags, than actual, practical need of higher capped.

I personally download by 1-2 rounds and am content with that number, it's not the number of rounds that'll save you, but your own "nerves" to release the 1.st few timely and rightly enough, and course the position of the stars/destiny at the given time, God forbid.

Google up, if you can, the number of people who ever suffered SD issues due to lower round count in the mags, in any given encounter, and I'm sure there'll be close to nil or exceptionally few, if any at all, of such incidents. Ease boys!


Regards.

Denovo87
26-08-2011, 11:42 AM
Exactly this is a sign of "wear off", thanks Den for sharing here. The "follower" of your Beretta mag seems not to be reaching top level of magazine lips, as to stop the slide. Perhaps just a "milli" short, but short enough to let the slide go forward again. Any help at Brownells.com?? Lolz!

In any case, what caused me most concern in above posts was "degradation" of spring life of empty mags!!! Seems keeping 4-5 rounds in extra mags and storing them away would be better.

As for keeping mags being used for SD/ routine carry, downloaded by 2-3 rounds, well, I do not see why this should be of any issue in today's 15+1/16+1/17+1, yeah even 13+1 handguns, the world's top military force had been using 7+1/8+1 all the way from WW1 to Vietnam and beyond even, hence it's more of a "mental" dislike towards lower capped mags, than actual, practical need of higher capped.

I personally download by 1-2 rounds and am content with that number, it's not the number of rounds that'll save you, but your own "nerves" to release the 1.st few timely and rightly enough, and course the position of the stars/destiny at the given time, God forbid.

Google up, if you can, the number of people who ever suffered SD issues due to lower round count in the mags, in any given encounter, and I'm sure there'll be close to nil or exceptionally few, if any at all, of such incidents. Ease boys!


Regards.

Ak bro.. for springs I dont need Brownells, you can buy (online) directly from Wolff; a top quality spring company and I already got mine from them 10% extra power ;) now slide stops on both mags.

One recent observation though; donot I repeat DONOT keep your PT145 mags filled for longer periods, they have an inherent problem of giving misfeed, round nose diving etc problem if pt145 mags are kept loaded for longer period(even 2 rounds less than the fullest capacity). This is my personal experience (last Sunday's range session).
If you carry pt145 regularly I will suggest to unload mags as soon as you are home and fill next morning to avoid giving a bad impression of your IMPORTED 45er to a BG ;)

Asiftt
27-08-2011, 07:22 PM
Thanks Denovo and AK Bro for your valuable comments

As Denovo said if a gun didn't asked to change anything regrading magazines for 17 good years , it worth wise. After 17 years changing a damn whole magzine for a gun is no issue. It gave you service for a life , it deserves that....