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View Full Version : Opinion: Turkish Shot Guns, Are they any good?



Glxspk
17-04-2009, 05:56 PM
I recently let myself explore a few. Ergnomics, drop, comb & feel were horrible.

They were pretty I have to agree to that but I was wondering if the semi auto cycle loads flawlessly esp the weaker loads and if they can take high volume shooting.

How do they pattern with / without chokes? Has any of you made a pattern chart?

From 1-10 how would you rate different makes & models? And Why?

Waiting for your comments.

Balazona
17-04-2009, 06:04 PM
I think u mean Ergonomics.BTW,Sarsilmaz and Hatsan Escort r very famouse models in Europe.Specially UK hunters like Hatsan semi auto.they have good reliablity with weaker loads.I have Hatsan Escort Aimguard.and i found this gun much better than Maverick 88 security model.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 06:11 PM
For a short time I thought (.BTW,Sarsilmaz) was actually a word. I am assuming you meant 'are' for a 'r'. I could not understand continuation with small letters after a period. But again we should keep our eyes on the donuts and not the holes(o) ;)

Anyway, have you tried skeet loads? How many shells have you fired in a single day without cleaning your shotgun? Have you ever hunted with it? Why do you think it's better than a Mav 88? Is HE Aimguard the best amongst the Turkish lot?

Have you tried patterning your shotgun?

Balazona
17-04-2009, 06:21 PM
I dont have membership of that range where skeet shooting is allowed so far.and i could only fire 50 rounds in one day from this gun and didnt face any malfuction.Basically this shotgun is a clone of Remington 870 model shogun but its reciever is Aluminum alloy.Remington 870 design is true and tried.Turkish made shotguns usually have Chromel ined barrels.Those chrome lined barrel r very easy to clean.

WajahatBeg
17-04-2009, 06:25 PM
@glxspk,
seems you have some degree of knowledge about turkish shot guns. what about russian. very interested in buying either a turkish or russian over/under with auto ejector and interchangeable chokes for skeet/trap or small game hunting.
Can you please recommend one, based on user views. Also good price and place of availability. Would be grateful.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Not really Wajahat. I have had no experiance with a Turkish make. Ive had experiacce with almost all European and American models but never Turkish. Russian Baikal semi auto is a good weapon for hunting but they cannot handle high volume shooting. Ive seen them all break to include a Turkish at skeet, but again that could be a faulty piece.

The reason I started this thread was to get to know more about them. Specially shot pattern & pellet distribution of the ones coming with chokes. I'll buy some for hunting in rough areas and from a vehicle if the outcome of this thread comes in favor of them. Most of my premium shotguns have been dented & scratched from being carried in vehicles.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 06:59 PM
I dont have membership of that range where skeet shooting is allowed so far.and i could only fire 50 rounds in one day from this gun and didnt face any malfuction.Basically this shotgun is a clone of Remington 870 model shogun but its reciever is Aluminum alloy.Remington 870 design is true and tried.Turkish made shotguns usually have Chromel ined barrels.Those chrome lined barrel r very easy to clean.

Does it come with recoil pads? Rem 870 is a pump. Your Hatson, is it pump or semi auto?

Balazona
17-04-2009, 07:03 PM
Yes,my Aimguard in pump action shotgun.TriPAD system is available for Hatsan shotguns.

Sohail
17-04-2009, 07:08 PM
but usually when it comes to 12 guage the most prefered brand all over the world is of USA. Actually turkish first made ther reputation in the handguns and now they are coming with the line of pumps and repeaters, keeping in view the peppiness of today's crowd.

regards

Balazona
17-04-2009, 07:15 PM
Turkish semi auto and pump action shotugns r good value for the money.they r good for rough use like Guard duty and Hunting.

Omkhan
17-04-2009, 07:24 PM
I would say that Turkish shotguns r the best thing that one can get in this price range. I have an Akkar Karatay which I bought it for 33K. Although it makes u tired after 20+shots or so because I think its foregrip is just too far to get a steady hold but what else could I have asked for in 33K.

Balazona
17-04-2009, 07:30 PM
Omkhan,u can change ur LOP(lenght of pull) by changing different pads on ur Full stock.that is inherent problem with Folding stocks which u r facing right now.

Drmaqeel
17-04-2009, 07:40 PM
HATSAN has a very well established 15000 m≤ production area, 400 workers and a machine park of total 300 machinery including high-tech Computer Numerical Controlled Machines. HATSAN is the unique air gun manufacturer and the best known shotgun manufacturer of Turkey since 1976.

Bhatti
17-04-2009, 07:46 PM
Balazona, whats the price of aimguard i would like to have one on my fathers licence.

Balazona
17-04-2009, 07:55 PM
it is just for Rs 26K at National Traders Lahore.it is also available at PARA with a different name Viper.it is the same shotgun like Hatsan Escort Aimguard but has TriPAD stock system.
NOTE:price is same for both of them.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 07:59 PM
but usually when it comes to 12 guage the most prefered brand all over the world is of USA. Actually turkish first made ther reputation in the handguns and now they are coming with the line of pumps and repeaters, keeping in view the peppiness of today's crowd.

regards

Best shotguns are European.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 08:02 PM
But Turkish sotguns are only prefered because of their comparative affordability in the range.

TAREEN
17-04-2009, 08:13 PM
thats the best comprehension of the ISSUE. And it effectively applies in most cases. Ask someone if a Glock & a Taurus is priced the same, which one they will buy???

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 08:16 PM
But I've heard, not sure, a Stoeger's more reliable than a Taurus?

Thats what Ive been asking. If the owners of Turkish shotguns who have used them extensively for hunting are happy with their weapon. What make brand would they advise? etc.

TAREEN
17-04-2009, 08:39 PM
Those who have used Turkish semi autos for more than three hunting seasons complained (most but not all) about its firing pin being ineffective or damaged. Sarsilmaz has been considered to be the better one among the Turkish brands by about 7 users who i know. They are the ones using other premium brands as well, therefore in a better position to judge.

Again, its value for money in looks & performance, both. Good for hunting. Doesn't hurt when gets scratched. As effective as premium brands. Skeet has to be tried & those having such facility may do this as a favor to others.

HA users are as well satisfied, therefore, falls in the league.

Glxspk
17-04-2009, 09:15 PM
What model of Sarsalimaz? How's Stoeger? There is no point in having a weapon that only lasts you 3 hunting seasons. If we use 100-200 magnum loads every weekend that means the weapon's likely to expire in less than a month or two.

Besides you need to use the shotgun at skeet just to get the hang of it. What are the chances that the weapon will break if we use lets say about 300-400 a week?

Also do you know anything about the shot pattern that you get from the trukish chokes?

TAREEN
17-04-2009, 09:45 PM
I'm not aware of the exact model number of all the guns, but can be asked.

Stoeger! no 1st hand information.

I think, as u are very much familiar with, hunting season crosses thousands of shots and therefore after three years & couple of thousand shots if its just the firing pin on some pieces that are worth around 50k, can be excused. And it depends on certain factors of handling & usage as well.

As Korean assembled car may not last as long as a Japanese assembled car under the same conditions, but in itself, it will fulfill its obligations towards its existence may be with slightly shorter maintenance intervals as compared to the Japanese counterparts.

For the pattern, I once checked;
Semi-auto 28" barrel Turkish Puma/Viper
No. 4 standard Shaheen shots
@ 25 meters
Cyl choke..............70% pellets...... 13" group
Full choke..............70% pellets..... 8" group

WajahatBeg
18-04-2009, 12:14 AM
well, there you go. I have been using a remington 1187 semi since the last 15 yrs, but rather sparingly, even then I must have fired off around 20,000 from it. Not a single problem yet. Reading these reviews, i can see i am heading for a failed graph with these turkish guns.
I also bought a beretta series 687 silver pegion 2 last year and must say its a superb gun.
Now i have the itch to buy another good gun.
any suggestions?????

WajahatBeg
18-04-2009, 12:15 AM
@tareen
your profile pic is beautiful

Glxspk
18-04-2009, 01:22 AM
well, there you go. I have been using a remington 1187 semi since the last 15 yrs, but rather sparingly, even then I must have fired off around 20,000 from it. Not a single problem yet. Reading these reviews, i can see i am heading for a failed graph with these turkish guns.
I also bought a beretta series 687 silver pegion 2 last year and must say its a superb gun.
Now i have the itch to buy another good gun.
any suggestions?????

Your Silver Pigeoin II will last you a decade or two or maybe more. I have a Silver Pigeon IV but I dont like it.

Get your hands on a H&H or a Perazzi. Beretta Perennia series is pretty. SOs... nahhhh I'd rather get something else.

Taurus
18-04-2009, 02:54 AM
i think stoeger should have a better reputation than other shot guns but ppl didnt use it much so they didnt come accross to know abt it ...basically stoeger was a shotgun company and is supported by franchi and benelli renowned brand and is also gettin famous in US...so if any user of stoeger has any reviews would be appreciated to tell us abt it?

WajahatBeg
18-04-2009, 07:55 PM
@Glxspk
Now you got me confused.

Abbas
18-04-2009, 08:05 PM
Your Silver Pigeoin II will last you a decade or two or maybe more. I have a Silver Pigeon IV but I dont like it.

Get your hands on a H&H or a Perazzi. Beretta Perennia series is pretty. SOs... nahhhh I'd rather get something else.

Lol Glxspk.. Only a handful of people on this site can afford a H&H. The OP is asking for a Rs. 40,000 gun and you're telling him about a Rs. 10,000,000 K gun :P

Perhaps you can 'donate' one to El Cause e PakGuns :cool:

Glxspk
18-04-2009, 08:48 PM
lol, I did not read the whole post.

I thought since he had a SP II and wants something better I thought I'd advise him the best. But I dd refer a Perennia did I not :P

A SP II is already coupla hundred thousand and if he want something like a premium SO series Beretta or maybe a diamond pigeon the cost would be in excess of 1.5 Million so he could add in a few more 100ks and buy a H&H. Obviously he will not get a Royal or Sporting Deluxe but he can get a H&H Badminton or Dominion for in betweel PKR 2-3.5M.

You CAN also get Shot & Regulated Boxlock 12 g for under PKR 1m.

CougarMan
19-04-2009, 07:40 PM
I would also put money on the Stoegar as opposed to the others simply because the company is a subsidiary of Beretta.

Irttyza
19-04-2009, 07:55 PM
the Stoeger model 2000 (semi-auto)has horrible reviews on the net. P350 pump action has better reputation.

Sialvi
19-04-2009, 07:59 PM
salaam all members. well i purchased my hatsan camocombo in nov. 06. it comes with two barrels 24" and 28" along with multiple chokes and mag. extentioner. its been three seasons of partridges and ducks and two seasons of quail hunts and two skeet competetions and have fired heavily all sort of ammo without a single malfunction except a few miss fires that other guns also refused to fire. mostly i use 24" with imp. mod. choke (#2) and it gives excellent result on all games. m quite satisfied with this hatsan so far.

Glxspk
19-04-2009, 08:35 PM
What is the pattern like?

Sialvi
19-04-2009, 08:46 PM
quite satisfying patterns particularly with shots #8 and 7.

Glxspk
19-04-2009, 09:00 PM
I'll borrow a Hatson & try it myself.

WajahatBeg
19-04-2009, 09:48 PM
@Glxspk
guess what, took your advice to heart abt the H&H. Found one in Lahore which I may be able to aquire. Private owner, mint condition, good price. Wish me Luck!!! :D

Glxspk
19-04-2009, 09:58 PM
Which one is it? Do consult me before buying one. I'll hook you up with my Relationship Manager at Holland & Holland who might help you with price evaluation. Also PM me it's serial number and I will get you history on it and it's specs when it was made.

WajahatBeg
19-04-2009, 10:16 PM
will do sir, thanks for offered help.

Sialvi
19-04-2009, 11:49 PM
wish u best of luck wajahatbeg sahib.

Firepower!
20-04-2009, 12:20 AM
Turkish:
How good are Viper and Stoeger compared to Maverick?

Glxspk
20-04-2009, 02:20 AM
Would like to know that myself.

Abbas
20-04-2009, 02:49 AM
I would rate them in this order:

1). Stoeger (Pump)
2). Maverick
3). Viper

For the value for money however I would reverse that order.

Balazona
20-04-2009, 08:15 AM
+1 to Abbas.

Firepower!
20-04-2009, 08:40 AM
In that case Maverick wins since its well set in its place.

Please find me one and I will pick one up on my visit. If its in silver I will take 2.

Balazona
20-04-2009, 08:48 AM
Firepower,i have found one for u already in Black.we will try to find a Marine one when u will be in Lahore.

Bluff
20-04-2009, 10:01 AM
Turkish guns I believe are reasonably good guns, a few makes like skb are as good as other european makes.In pakisan I have seen a limited variety of turkish guns which can be catagorized as middle standard guns like sarsilmaz, huglu etc.In these i personally think that sarsilmaz semi's and o/u r pretty good, i am using these guns(sarsilmaz(salvo), Yildiz (professional), and quite happy with them.

Bluff
20-04-2009, 10:03 AM
Turkish shotguns use the same chrome molybdenum steel which famous companies use in the production models. It is one of the best steel suitable for guns barrels, mostly have finished in silver receivers with modest machine engraving and overall are nice looking guns. The only thing which I dislike most is the use of black chromium finish to barrels instead of classic bluing. This is not a durable finish and quickly comes off within few years of use.

Bluff
20-04-2009, 10:07 AM
if u ppl allow i can tell u brief of some famous turkish guns available in pakistan market.( which i have used personaly and in a position to rate them individualy)

Khalidsh
20-04-2009, 12:01 PM
Bluff, please do post your comments it would be helpfull for future purchases

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Here are a brief detail of some famous Turkish make and models

Sarsilmaz is the most popular brand here in Pakistan.

Apollo, A good O/U with silver receiver and engraving single selective trigger and ejectors with fix chokes.
Weight-------------8/10
Handling-----------7/10
Constriction ------7/10
Forearm/Stock.... medium quality walnut
Engraving --------Light/Laser Engraved
Low cost among Turkish Shotguns....... best in 2nd line of choices in turkish Overunders (medium range gun)

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:26 PM
Millenium, O/U with silver receiver and good machine engraving, single selective trigger with multi choke but is non ejector. Some have mid ribs while some havenít. 1st Turkish shotgun with the concept of air vents
Weight-------------8/10
Handling-----------8/10
Constriction ------9/10
Forearm/Stock.... medium / high quality walnut
Engraving --------Light/Laser Engraved
Low cost among Turkish Shotguns....... best in 2nd line of choices in turkish Overunders (medium range gun)

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:36 PM
its light weight
deadly for short range
comes with 5 choke tubes
easily available in market as the market now a days are over fled by turkish shotguns.
easy selector

Salvo, O/U with silver receiver and good machine engraving, single selective trigger with multi choke,with selective ejectors. .
Weight-------------9/10
Handling-----------9/10
Constriction ------9/10
Chock selector------9/10 (Thumb type selector)
Pattren -----------9/10(normally i give 9/10 to sarsilamz for its pattern)
Forearm/Stock.... high quality walnut
Engraving --------Heavy/Laser Engraved
High cost among Turkish Shotguns....... top of the line choices in turkish Overunders (high range gun)
Deadly in shortrange and a real beauty...
My recommendation for all over under lover

Khalidsh
20-04-2009, 12:39 PM
What are the current prices? can anyone put the current prices?

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:40 PM
SKB another over under turkish shotgun maker... .... O/U with black receiver and good machine engraving, single selective trigger with multi choke,with selective ejectors
I rate its all brands equivalent to sarsilmaz salvo ........... hight price, high range, hight grade turkish walnut,
A real beauty
Market avaiabilty----- hard to find
Recommendation .........same as salvo or salvo+1

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:42 PM
In semi autos Sarsilmaz is best option among Turkish companies and I have yet to see a more beautiful and quality made Turkish shotgun than Sarsilmaz Concorde Deluxe. Verona branded semi autos are also good rather best and reliable shotguns

Huglu, many models are coming but most beautiful is the Gazelle which actually is targeted toward USA market. The most beautifully figured walnut stocks among Turkish manufacturers and most shotguns coming here are non ejectors with double triggers and chokes are optional while Huglu has many models including single selective triggers with ejectors and multi chokes. Huglu semi autos are not good guns and have some quality control


Yildiz, it the light weight shotgun with aluminum receivers but it kicks heavily. Other quality made shotguns in aluminum receivers use titanium inserts on key points to resist early wear but although, I am not sure but I think Yildiz is without titanium inserts on key points. It is pleasant to handle and finish is good and available in both silver and black finished receivers.


"AKKAR" .... its very light and well balanced .... used it this season and it was as good as any US made shotgun .... the balance, styling etc ..... everything was fine ... never misfired or anything ..... value for money considering prevalant prices for more popular brands .....

Bluff
20-04-2009, 12:52 PM
khalid bhai ...... dont know the current market (Islamabad)price. but all the semis in salsilmaz faimily execpt concord delux range from 30K t0 60K ...(concord , Jaws , Camo, Camo Black, Verona etc) Concord Delux 70K
Yildiz i bought for Rs 37K
SKB i bought for 78 K O/U

But u know every man in pak market asks as he feels like their in no price range in ISB one Dealer is asking 60 for sarsilmaz Jaws ... where as in pindi its worth 40 K

Khalidsh
20-04-2009, 01:11 PM
Thanks Bluff.

A couple of days back I read someone buying as Akkar of Sarsilmaz Mariner. Does anyone has pics and prices of the same?

HassaanAfzal
20-04-2009, 02:51 PM
@ bluff

do u have any info abt Rubust?

TAREEN
21-04-2009, 08:32 AM
@tareen
your profile pic is beautiful
Thanx for your kind words brother.

Bluff
21-04-2009, 09:35 AM
@Hassan ... brother "Robust " shotgun brands basically belongs to "Manufrance", a leading private arms menufecturing company of "France"..... Now these shotguns are made in Turkey due to the low and cheap labor.
You must have seen this with Shams in siver receiver.
mmmmmm i m not satisfied, although light weight , good looking , good price, ..... enough capacity ..... bas theek hey ,
but if u have other batter options than why to go for some thing that apeals you.

HassaanAfzal
21-04-2009, 01:47 PM
@ bluff

I find it very balanced and light weight compare to other guns in that price range though no idea about its performance

Bluff
21-04-2009, 01:57 PM
Jee Bhai... again i ll ask u to search more and more, i appriciate your efforts..... but again search more
i told u it looks good, feels good but if u have other batter and proven options than why to buy these.
keep trying dont dont haste

Khalidsh
21-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Hi Bluff

Can you check the prices for Sarsilmaz Jaws?

Bluff
21-04-2009, 03:02 PM
Khalid bhai .... i mentioned earlier ...

khalid bhai ...... dont know the current market (Islamabad)price. but all the semis in salsilmaz faimily execpt concord delux range from 30K t0 60K ...(concord , Jaws , Camo, Camo Black, Verona etc) Concord Delux 70K
Yildiz i bought for Rs 37K
SKB i bought for 78 K O/U

But u know every man in pak market asks as he feels like their in no price range in ISB one Dealer is asking 60 for sarsilmaz Jaws ... where as in pindi its worth 40 K

12GAUGE
10-05-2009, 07:36 PM
AoA everybody

Kindly accept my apologies for butting-in but I had to add a few things:

I have used Turkish and Russian Shotguns at skeet for quiet a long time and during the course of time, i've learned a few things about both of them.

Turkish designs are more refined, finish is more refined, weight is less compared to Russian shotguns. Turkish shotguns are more functional at lighter loads.

Turkish shotguns are more prone to fatigue failure, i've destroyed almost a dozen shotguns, trust me i know. from fatigue, i mean barrel heating up, bent/broken firing pin, cracked receiver (yes, cracked, amazing right?), cracked bolt, cracking of wooden butt, barrel nut kinda gets loose after high volume firing, forearm gets loose and i've cracked two of them as well. did i mention constant O-ring problems? either its burned/melted or it gets so deformed that it cant be used again.

Reason:

well, turkish gun makers focus on finish and handling of the gun. their designs are basically knock-offs. very good performance on ligher loads but will destroy the gun on heavy ones. now coming back to reasons, well, turkish makers kinda focus on finish, they lack focus on the durability aspect of their products, i've seen missing heat treatment on firing pins, i've seen bolts of normal, not heat treated steel, i've seen action bars made of mild steel (very bad). can u even imagine, my outer chrome on the magazine tube on one of my turkish shotguns chipped off. imagine that, it was supposed to be hard chromed.

Russian

well, their guns are ugly and heavy. but it stops here. no focus on finish, all the focus on durability, infact, show their piston and bolt assemtly to any mechanical engineer and he will immediately tell you that this gun is designed to last a long time.

there was a test in Italy sometime back, I dont have the video anymore. search the internet and u'll find it. in that test, they tried several brands of european and american shotguns, they fired the individual shotguns to failure point, guess which one came on top, baretta, remington, winchester and many other failed at less than 20,000. in case of a Baikal, the test was stopped cause they couldnt destroy the gun even at 50,000 rounds. dont even ask me about turkish guns, they all failed at less than 10K rounds. remember, these were only destructive tests, they didnt test the load sensitivity, pattern and other very important aspects of shotguns.

as far as pattern is concerned, it can be improved by buying after market chokes, as far as load sensitivity is concerned, it can be cured by properly breaking-in the gun. Russians take weapon durability very seriously, there is a reason why Baikal mp153 was russia's 100 best exports in 2001 and was "guns and ammo" gun of the year and was "shooting times" gun of the year.

its such a shame, comparing a turkish to Baikal. such a shame indeed.

comparing Baikal mp153 to a Turkish is like comparing Superman to Mr. Glass.


Turkish save money by lowering the durability, Russian save money by lowering the finish.

Regards.

p.s. however if your gonna go for any turkish, i'll advise you to go for Hatsan only, no sarsilmaz and no other turkish gun maker, even in Hatsan go for synthetic model only.

i've found Hatsan (strictly Hatsan, no viper, no germanika, no volcanic) to be better than others, u'll experience far less flaws, however i've found their bolt assembly to be a little weak. others turkish guns are total crap. I am currently using the Hatsan and its holding-up quiet well in my skeet. bolt kinda rattles now a bit, but hey, its a turkish, cant compain right ? ;)

this time since i opted for sythetic, i'm kinda satisfied with the construction. mine is HATSAN TRIO.

Osam
10-05-2009, 07:51 PM
@12 gauge, very interesting and amazing facts. That is what i call real first hand info and it surely helps. Thank you very much.

Shariq
10-05-2009, 11:03 PM
@12 gauge, very interesting and amazing facts. That is what i call real first hand info and it surely helps. Thank you very much.
+1

AK47
10-05-2009, 11:57 PM
@12 gauge..... That's a practical review, indeed! Thanks, you made it quite easier for me to choose my next shotgun, and your small details tell that this is indeed practical experience. +1!

12GAUGE
11-05-2009, 12:45 AM
Thank you Gentlemen, I'm glad to be of service.

Regards.

Enigmatic Desires
11-05-2009, 12:47 AM
12 guage.. bro.. U must be one of the all time gurus on the lore of shotgunning

12GAUGE
11-05-2009, 01:27 AM
12 guage.. bro.. U must be one of the all time gurus on the lore of shotgunning

Na man, i'm no guru, i'm just a regular shotgun enthusiast.

Regards.

Taurus
11-05-2009, 02:48 AM
Very nice info 12 gauge

HassaanAfzal
11-05-2009, 03:29 AM
very nice info and i feel satisfied with my hatsan magnum.

Aamar
11-05-2009, 09:38 AM
@ 12 Gauge: excellent feedback, i would also choose russain over turkish any day of the week :)

Khalidsh
11-05-2009, 09:55 AM
Nicely placed information. But yet to know what brands of Turkish weapons have you used. Can you please let us know.

12GAUGE
11-05-2009, 01:15 PM
I have extensive exprience in:

1. Hatsan escort luxano
2. Hatsan escort trio
3. germanika magnum
4. volcanic pump
5. sarsilmaz boeing
6. sarsilmaz concorde

I have used (more than once, a brief encounter nevertheless) following but dont have indepth experience

1. stoeger
2. ATA semi auto

other than that i've handled and try to handle any budget gun that i could get my hands on.

Regards.

Bluff
11-05-2009, 02:14 PM
@12 guage.... sir while comparing MP153 with turkish semi auto brands .... i dont agree ... MP has some limitations like Constriction, grouping, patteren, .weight etc... and remember not all turkish semis are good. like they can not handle heavy Loads very well .... like if you try shaheen supper or excel then u may experience ejector problems or delayied or miss feed. where as russian can handle heavy loads very well.
in hunting i ll prefer turkish brands over russian do you need heavy loads more often...... have you ever tried TOZ Semi auto ... ???

Aamar
11-05-2009, 02:24 PM
Most Russian shotguns are designed for duck shooting and come with tight chokes ...... Since weight is not an issue on duck shoots these guns fare well in the field ............ If u are an avid upland hunter than a lighter Spanish shotgun would be better ....... Turkish shotguns are good for guards and SD with the pump options ..... I would not buy a Turkish semi or o/u for hunting .........

Bluff
11-05-2009, 02:36 PM
Aamar bhai .... i have been useing sarsilmaz (Verona and Concord Delux), Yildiz (professional) and Baikal (MP 153).... on ducks...
1. In 153 my problem starts after 1st shot...that is due to heavy weight "Maneuverability " and "chasing " is difficult
2. I am Not at all impressed by the grouping (constriction ) of 135

Aamar
11-05-2009, 02:45 PM
I have friends who are "hard core" duck busters and use the Baikal semi with amazing skill ..... Have not heard them complain "ever" ..... The new Baikal in synthetic is very nice to look at with optima (type) choke system .....

But, you should use a gun u are comfortable with and which "feels" good, and if that is the Turkish Semi and then that is the "right" weapon for you .......

Naazer
11-05-2009, 02:49 PM
baikaal's only downside is its heavier weight and in the field that can take a toll. But most of us are in the field for less than 2 hrs where the weight isn an issue. in my opinion its a great value for money equation. my plan is to add a o/u or side by side baikaal soon.

Bluff
11-05-2009, 03:03 PM
@Naazer bhai i normally spend 7:30 to 5:00PM in the field for Patridges with 2 hrs break and 4:00 to 5:30 for duck in the areas like chashma etc ... what do u advise me ....:)

Bhai ...i never said MP153 is bad for ducks or its not a good gun. i just said there are other many guns better than MP 153...
BTW i have MP 153 Both With Wooden and Synthetic and i use both very frequently....

12GAUGE
11-05-2009, 10:06 PM
AoA everybody

Baikal patterns can be improved by buying after market choke tubes, get colonial arms, they are fine, get trulock chokes, they are even better, a bit expensive too. about weight, well their weight and their finish is their only downfall, somebody mentioned that they dont function that well in lighter load, come on man, all u need is a good break-in proceedure, just follow the manual, trust me, u wont even need to adjust the gas setting for any kinda load.

somebody mentioned grouping, well, do u know its a shotgun, grouping doesnt exist in a shotgun. i'm sure you meant pattern. but still if u want group (even though its not a rifle), lets talk about it, Baikal's barrels are all hammer forged, the proceedure developed by germans in second world war is known for its consistancy and accuracy. there must be a reason why Remington, Sako, Austyr, HK, FN, winchester, infact every huge name around the globe hammer forge their barrels. if you meant patterns, well, they can be hugely improved by buying after market choke tubes.

just one last note: at birmingham proof house in 2002, baikal barrel was sucessfully ruptured at 200 MPa of pressure, its amazing, their barrels are proofed marked at 90MPa, get it?, it took more than twice the pressure to rupture it. only other was benellie m3 that had a barrel that reached that much pressure before rupturing.

as far as the world most renouned proofing house is concerned (birmingham proof house), its nothing to jump about cause barrels are only supposed to demonstrate the pressure at which they are marked. however to me, it speaks all about their durability and robustness.

Regards.

Naazer
12-05-2009, 07:38 AM
@ bluff: Now thats a lot of time in the field and carrying a heavier gun can be an issue then. upland you should be looking at a lighter side by side or over under. depends on budget for this one. so don't know what your limits would be. the beretta pigeon range is ultra light. takes the o/u a bit of getting used to but i've used a friends and its really good.

ducks in the chashma area you don want to be with a o/u and that also too expensive. for that i recomment a synthtic stock semi auto. maybe even a stoeger 2000!

Bluff
12-05-2009, 10:16 AM
@12 Guage bhai ....
1. Choke tubes change the constrictions of pallets ,
2. Even or uneven Pattern of pallets depends upon the gun barrel......
3. who said the grouping of Pallets are is not considered in Shotguns...

Bluff
12-05-2009, 10:22 AM
let me tell you how to check the Constriction , pattern and grouping of a gun...
1. take 4/5 white papers of App 4 ft * 4 ft mark a circle of 6 inches in the center.
2. target the center .... with 2/3 different shotguns...
3. Make one thing sure .... the ammo load, choke tube setting and the distance should be same...
4. you will know the Constriction , pattern and grouping of a each gun.

use a good quality ammo (for consistency) ... cuz that also make a huge difference..

Bluff
12-05-2009, 10:29 AM
@Naazer i think , it is basically the personal liking or dislikeing .... i have seen many ppl doing upland shooting with semi autos ... even doves with semi autos or water game with Double Barrels. .... what ever suits you is best for you... no matter double barrel or semi auto ...

Naazer
12-05-2009, 10:56 AM
agreed bluff. but partridges should only be shot with a dbbl--a gentleman's hunting ethic. Juts for ducks i wouldn want to subject a nice gun to the rigors of the weather so would use something that i wouldn mind getting sratched or damaged(semi or side by side not withstanding)

12GAUGE
12-05-2009, 11:09 AM
@12 Guage bhai ....
1. Choke tubes change the constrictions of pallets ,
2. Even or uneven Pattern of pallets depends upon the gun barrel......
3. who said the grouping of Pallets are is not considered in Shotguns...


wait, wait, wait, i never said grouping of pellets isnt important, i said, the term grouping doesnt exist in shotguns, that groupting of pellets that you are talking about is called pattern and that even and uneven pattern shape is called pattern density.

one more thing, chokes tubes dont change constriction of pellets, choke tubes only change the constriction of the muzzle of the barrel. that in turns results in a pattern formation depending upton the degree of the choke/constriction of the barrel.

Regards.

Bluff
12-05-2009, 11:25 AM
:) merey bhai ...merey bhai....
How do you calculate the grouping in rifled guns ... in the same way it is calculated in the shot guns ...the avg distance between the pallets or the diatance between the farthest pallet and the maximum group of pallets (inverse grouping).

Consitriction of the barrel (choke tubes) change the constriction of pallets .... make the group tight or loose.... This can also be done through selection of loads ...

12GAUGE
12-05-2009, 12:07 PM
@Bluff

Sir, i do agree on the grouping with rifles but we are talking about shotguns only.

the average distance between pellets is called pattern density. the max distance between the farthest pallets in a shot pattern is called pattern size. i've never heard of the term grouping in shotguns.

may be i'm unable to explain myself: what you are essentially talking about is real, but its the term that you are using is wrong.

lemme search on the internet for any article on patterns, Eureka!

http://www.fieldandclays.com/expert_chokes.htm

kindly read it. its written by Mr. George Trulock. and coincidently, i've had many email conversations with him on the topic of chokes and patterns. he is considered one of the best choke tube maker in the world.

his most important response to my email: "YES YOU CAN ORDER CHOKES FOR PAKISTAN", yipeeeeeee. however my wife wont let me :(

I would also recommend you to contact Mr. briley of briley chokes on the subject too. he is the best when it comes to chokes and patterns.

Regards.

Mitho
12-05-2009, 12:14 PM
@ 12 gauge
whats the price tag on baikal mp153.r magzine extension tube avalaible?

12GAUGE
12-05-2009, 12:27 PM
No information sir, i'm just guessing that it should be around 50K-55K. could be 45K. i bought mine back in 07 for 40K. as far as magazine extensions are concerned, the ones i've seen just added one more cartridge, absolute useless. i'm searching for the 3 shot extender myself. but any experienced guy would tell you that its useless to add an extender to a semi-auto.

how many rapid and successive shots do u need in a hunt or skeet or trap?

one more thing it totally throws the gun off-balance. for somebody as naggy about the gun weight as i am, a magazine extender is a real turn-off. I have a friend who like muzzle heavy guns and he always insists on a magazine extender.

I feel a muzzle heavy gun offers nice swing but at the expense of slower speed of the swing.

my preference is neutral balance or may be sligthly forward but not more than the middle of the barrel. a definate no to muzzle heavy.

Regards.

Bluff
12-05-2009, 01:53 PM
@12 guage ...
well article it is just what we already know and are discussing the basic issue is grouping ....?
now if we take what u just said then what is the difference between Grouping and pettern density.

ay_be_why
12-05-2009, 04:48 PM
sir bluff and sir 12gauge, i think you both are talking about the same things :) bluff sb. is using the terms more common among our hunters and shooters whereas 12gauge sb. is using the proper by-the-book terms...

regards

12GAUGE
12-05-2009, 05:05 PM
you are very right. we are both referring to the same thing, i'm using book-term and Bluff is using the term which is more common in Pakistan.

anyways, about groups/grouping: grouping is a term almost exclusively used when single projectiles are being discussed. if you read the article, the term grouping is not mentioned anywhere. why? cause we are talking about multiple projectiles (pellets) not single projectile (bullet, slug).

Regards.

Hamid
12-05-2009, 05:34 PM
So the issue seems to have been resolved;)

12GAUGE
12-05-2009, 07:13 PM
Roger that!

kash99
24-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Hello Guyz,

can any one tell me the performance of sarsilmaz boeing shotgun ? is it good to keep for hunting ? any idea about it market price ?

if you compare sarsilmaz boeing with Baikal MP-153 what would you prafer ?

Please get back to me. Thanks

Malik1
24-09-2009, 03:03 PM
@ 12gauge. Nice, healthy informative discussion. I enjoyed it thoroughly and support your point of view as far as terminology is concerned. To the best of my knowledge as well, there is no concept of grouping in shotguns like that of rifles. But besides use of terminology, you both talked essentially the same :)

Malik1
24-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Here are a brief detail of some famous Turkish make and models

Sarsilmaz is the most popular brand here in Pakistan.

Apollo, A good O/U with silver receiver and engraving single selective trigger and ejectors with fix chokes.
Weight-------------8/10
Handling-----------7/10
Constriction ------7/10
Forearm/Stock.... medium quality walnut
Engraving --------Light/Laser Engraved
Low cost among Turkish Shotguns....... best in 2nd line of choices in turkish Overunders (medium range gun)
I will just correct the honorable member that Apollo model does not come in fixed chokes. There might have been fixed chokes earlier (though I,ve not seen) but now it comes in different chokes. I have one which has five chokes.

Mig
25-09-2009, 07:39 PM
@Malik1, ur Apollo is still pending. I thought u have sold it.. What u suggesting the price now>>??

harisnaeem
27-09-2009, 09:55 PM
I want to buy a shotgun for hunting. Please suggest a light gun. i go for upland hunting 5-6 times and 1-2 times for waterfowling in a year and do not use more than 350 cartridges. my budget is around 60K, i live in Rwp but i wont mind going to lhr as well. Please tell the pros and cons of the gun you suggest.

Looking forward to your suggestions.

Malik1
28-09-2009, 09:23 AM
@Mig. Yep its still with me. I don,t suggest any price. Give you bid. If its OK you get it, else , bubye :)

@harisnaeem! Bro I will suggest you to buy a double barrel for hunting rather than going for semi autos. I suggest a Baikal or a Turkish in this price range

harisnaeem
28-09-2009, 09:39 AM
malik sahab thanks for your reply

i can go for an o/u too but i just wanted to have a semi automatic. please suggest me the better brands available for semi as well as o/u please mention the price and dealer as well.

i have heard and read good reviews about hatsan, salvo, yildiz and akkar. baikal off course has no match in performance, but its pattern is something to be looked for.

how much do i have to spend to get a remington and how do you people review the gun.

Looking forward

Malik1
28-09-2009, 10:56 AM
Bro! I,m not the market man. There are other senior members who go very frequently to market and do possess lot of knowledge about shot guns and their prices e.g KK, Abbas, Firepower, ED, Taurus, CC, Sohail, Hassanafzaal, acripone, Tareen , Abuhaul, Topak, Moeen, Dr Zakir and so on (many more whose names I do not remember off hand). They can tell you precisely what to buy and where to buy from? My apologies on the subject. Hope u do not mind :)