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12GAUGE
27-03-2011, 10:35 PM
AoA Everybody

Me and couple of my friends were out plinking today at a private range. we setup a few soda cans as targets and started plinking away with a few handguns. some informal fun just for the sake amusement on a boring Sunday.

One of handgun was a newly acquired Taurus 1911 (.45 ACP). the racked the slide as usual (i do not use the slide release, I pull the slide back just a bit and let go of it). everything felt normal, I clicked the trigger, the gun went bang and this happened:

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/Photo867.jpg

No problem, I thought the extractor must have slipped. I took the fired case out, racked the slide again, chambered the next round, bang! and again same problem, the slide locked back and the fired case is still in the chamber, just like the last time.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/Photo868.jpg

upon closer inspection, I found out that the extractor claw has broken and the empty case is not being pulled out of the chamber because of it.

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/IMG_4777.jpg

Here we can clearly see whats the culprit. note how the extractor claw is missing:

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/IMG_4787.jpg

Now can any of the esteemed Taurus lovers (both silent and the ones that never quit singing tunes in praise of the Brazilian brand) guide me how to claim the World Famous Taurus "No questioned asked" Lifetime Warranty?

The gun was purchase just two months ago NIB with zero round count.

Regards.

p.s. now I know why most 1911 users/owners end up becoming a pistolsmith after a few years of use and running around searching for aftermarket/replacement parts and accessories. ;)

safeershah
27-03-2011, 10:43 PM
12 Gauge zinabad, you are so brave to hit on a sensitive topic for all the 1911 users , lolzz
apart from the taurus I think almost every 1911 have these kind of issues and the custom made 1911 are ammo and dust sensitve and in america gunsmith of last three generation putting their kids into colleges thanks to 1911 users :)

Denovo87
27-03-2011, 10:46 PM
Oye Hoye... my sincere sympathies to the owner, dont worry mate you will be a 1911smith soon, just try finding this little sucker, some 1911 how to literature, tools to do the replacement ..... and viola you are the official 1911smith of the forum ;)

safeershah
27-03-2011, 10:48 PM
1911 is like a vintage car you spent much more than actual value of the car and still it will give you trouble and you love it no matter what

Denovo87
27-03-2011, 10:50 PM
By the way 12G bro... you were complaining about your hands being small but I can see you have quite big, sesky and beefy hands bro ;)

12GAUGE
27-03-2011, 11:43 PM
By the way 12G bro... you were complaining about your hands being small but I can see you have quite big, sesky and beefy hands bro ;)

Trust me Sir jee, its not the hands, its the zoom feature on the camera :P

Regards.

AK47
27-03-2011, 11:52 PM
Obviously the part broke after the fire, so let's leave it for now, tell me first, did you hit the damn cans? Lolz!

My regrets, but I'm sure the zealous owner will be able to replace it soon enough, hopefully!

I now understand your very quick sms reply today: "Ok, see you next week", when I told you I'd be flying some model planes today, instead! So that's where you were busy, lolz!

Anyhow, bro, I doubt even other so-called "warranted handguns" owners would have been able to make any quick/fruitful replacement claim, as such???


Thanks for the nice pics, indeed the 1911 is a beauty, lolz!


Regards.

assad ahmad nawab
27-03-2011, 11:55 PM
well yes we just dont have to sing songs for pt1911, such things can happen with this brand also, my sympathies from my heart for the owner

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 12:08 AM
Obviously the part broke after the fire, so let's leave it for now, tell me first, did you hit the damn cans? Lolz!

Ofcourse Sir, every last one of them but with a CZ 999 "Bichoo".


My regrets, but I'm sure the zealous owner will be able to replace it soon enough, hopefully!

Hope alone doesn't solve anything sir. parts were ordered from brownells and guess what, the best solution was to order standard 1911 extractor and convert/modify it to fit a Taurus PT1911. Bummer! :(


I now understand your very quick sms reply today: "Ok, see you next week", when I told you I'd be flying some model planes today, instead! So that's where you were busy, lolz!

who know what evil lurks in the heart of men. hahahahahaha!


Anyhow, bro, I doubt even other so-called "warranted" handgun owners would have been able to make any quick/fruitful replacement claim, as such???

ok! so this is your understanding of things. highly unfortunate. if other manufacturers are not able to make quick/fruitful replacement then we shouldn't expect this from Taurus as well?

Remember my simple yet extremely SESKY friend! only Taurus makes life time warranty. have you ever seen written anywhere that Stoegar industries is making any life time warranty claim for your silky smooth Katrina? ofcourse NO!


Thanks for the nice pics, indeed the 1911 is a beauty, lolz!

a broken beauty indeed.

Regards.

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 12:12 AM
Ofcourse Sir, every last one of them but with a CZ 999 "Bichoo".



Hope alone doesn't solve anything sir. parts were ordered from brownells and guess what, the best solution was to order standard 1911 extractor and convert/modify it to fit a Taurus PT1911. Bummer! :(



who know what evil lurks in the heart of men. hahahahahaha!



ok! so this is your understanding of things. highly unfortunate. if other manufacturers are not able to make quick/fruitful replacement then we shouldn't expect this from Taurus as well?

Remember my simple yet extremely SESKY friend! only Taurus makes life time warranty. have you ever seen written anywhere that Stoegar industries is making any life time warranty claim for your silky smooth Katrina? ofcourse NO!



a broken beauty indeed.

Regards.

Rather a CRIPPLED, TASTELESS, USELESS beauty ;)

Dr Zakir
28-03-2011, 12:15 AM
My sympathy for the owner .

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 12:27 AM
AoA Everybody

here is a little excerpt taken from:

WHY YOUR 1911 AUTO PISTOL WON'T WORK!!
by Duane Thomas
Handguns Magazine, November 1994

************************************************** *****************
Now, here's where I may get in trouble with a few folks. Some people seem to regard the basic 1911 design with an uncritical awe. To their minds, the 1911 represents handgun perfection; it is without flaws -- without flaws, you hear me? Any criticism of the gun threatens their perceptions of the universe. Meanwhile, back in reality, the basic 1911 is an antiquated design and it is far from perfect (sacrilege, I know). Come on, folks, if John Browning was alive today, do you really think he'd be designing guns like the 1911? Hell no, (Actually, Browning had moved far beyond the 1911 by the time he died in 1926. In his prototype for the Browning Hi-Power, already completed at the time of his death, he did away with many of the flaws of the basic 1911 design.)

Without trying too hard, I can think of four flaws in the basic 1911 design that range from moderate to serious. Several areas of the gun are prone to small-parts breakage; In some cases, when these small parts let go, the gun is totally disabled and it'll take a pistolsmith to get it back up and running.

PROBLEM #1: THE SLIDE STOP:

A portion of the slide stop projects into the mag well for the purpose of engaging the magazine's follower and locking open the action when the gun is empty. Unfortunately, this also puts the slide stop almost in the path of a cartridge coming out of the magazine. Since the slide stop is only lightly spring-loaded into the down position, if a round of ammo nudges this part during the feeding cycle, it can pop up into the slide stop notch, locking the slide back with rounds still in the gun. This can get you killed. This malfunction usually occurs, if it occurs at all, when firing the gun with hardball and less commonly with shorter hollow-point rounds. If this hasn't happened to your gun, you probably have nothing to worry about; it's only a problem on certain guns. If you do have this problem, a good pistolsmith can dimple the slide stop where it touches the spring-loaded plunger. If the work is done to perfection, the slide stop will never pop up on you, but will still operate perfectly to lock open the empty gun.

PROBLEM #2: THE EXTRACTOR:

The amount of pressure a 1911's extractor places on a cartridge casing's rim is regulated by the curvature of the part in its channel through the slide. This is a crude system. Too much curvature means too much pressure, and the extractor will not allow a cartridge casing to slip up into place, resulting in a failure to feed. Not enough curvature means insufficient extractor tension, resulting in failures to fully extract and/or eject. Most modern firearms use spring-loaded extractors, a far more durable and reliable system. This is a major improvement in firearms design that seems to have passed by the 1911.

The tension of a 1911's extractor can weaken with use. One sure way to screw up your extractor is to drop a round into the chamber with the slide open then drop the slide on the chambered cartridge. This will force the extractor to bend back and around the case rim, eventually abusing the extractor so much that it will lose its tension or even break off in extreme cases.

PROBLEM #3: THE BARREL BUSHING/RECOIL SPRING PLUG:

The barrel bushing/recoil spring plug is a high-stress area of the gun. Not only does the barrel whack around in the bushing every time you fire the piece, but the full force of the recoil spring also bears upon the bushing via the recoil spring plug. If the barrel bushing gives way, your recoil spring and recoil spring plug will depart the front of the gun at high speed. Effectively, the gun is disabled. Now, this doesn't happen very often, but I have had it happen to me while firing a Combat Commander. The bushing shattered, losing the semicircular piece that holds the recoil spring plug in the gun. My recoil system was somewhere down range, my gun out of action. I believe this occured because the slide of my gun came from the factory slightly shorter in front than it should have been. There was a fingernail-size gap between the barrel bushing's flange and the slide; you could move the bushing back and forth with your fingertips. This being the case, of course, the bushing took a hellacious pounding as it jacked itself back and forth every time the gun was fired, and finally it gave up the ghost. You should check your gun to ensure that the bushing fits snugly into the slide.

The exact same problem can occur from a different cause: The recoil spring plug may give way. This is common with hard use of the compact Officer's ACP guns. Most compact 1911s slavishly copy the Officer's ACP's recoil system, so this problem is not limited to Colts. On the Officer's ACP, the only thing holding the recoil spring plug in the gun is a tiny tab that hooks into a slot in the slide. If that small tab gives way (and it often does), your gun is hors de combat by virtue of a missing recoil system. I'm a big fan of the aftermarket recoil spring plugs for Officer's ACP-size guns that use a ring of metal at the rear of the plug to hold it inside the slide. There's no way such a part can come out of the gun.

PROBLEM #4: THE PLUNGER TUBE:

The plunger tube that runs between the slide stop and thumb safety is a notorious weak spot in the basic 1911 design. This tube contains two little plungers and a spring, the power of which serves both to hold the slide stop in the down position until operated by the follower of the empty magazine as well as to hold the thumb safety lever in the safe or fire position. This is a high-stress area of the gun; every time you flip your thumb safety on or off, you apply force to the plunger tube. Unfortunately, the plunger tube is held to the side of the gun only by two small studs that pass through holes in the frame. It is not at all unusual for one of these studs (almost invariably the rear one) to snap off. I've had this happen myself while shooting, and I've seen it happen to other shooters. When this happens, your thumb-safety lever will wind up in a half-on/half-off position. In an emergency, it would be possible to physically hold the safety lever down in the fire position and still shoot the piece. However, for all practical purposes, the gun is disabled until the plunger tube is replaced.

There's really nothing you can do about this problem except to keep a close eye on your gun's plunger tube for signs of looseness. Some folks say that if your plunger tube is loose, you should simply have it restaked. I don't know about that. If the plunger tube has been loose for any amount of time, that rear stud has probably been abused enough that I'd probably feel better myself simply replacing the tube with a new part. So, there's a lot to know about the ol' 1911, huh? It's not exactly the simplest or most maintenance-free design out there. The trick here is to enjoy the 1911 design for its strengths, but at the same time don't deny its weaknesses. Let me summarize my advice to maximize your 1911 auto's reliability: Load it with good hollow-point ammunition featuring a feed profile as close to hardball as possible. Use only top-quality magazines. Keep the gun clean and well lubricated. Check your bushing's fit in the slide. Regularly check your extractor tension and the plunger tube staked to the side of the gun for any looseness. If either of these areas shows problems, move instantly to rectify them.
************************************************** *****************
Source: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_Maintain.htm

Regards.

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 12:39 AM
12g bro, you seem in a mood to do proper CHITROL of 1911 ;)

Aquarius
28-03-2011, 12:41 AM
AoA Everybody

Regards.

p.s. now I know why most 1911 users/owners end up becoming a pistolsmith after a few years of use and running around searching for aftermarket/replacement parts and accessories. ;)

Very sorry for the owner but he is quite lucky to have you arround, coz.. now now now......... you are the only one to fix it for him.. Lolzzzz.

Dr Zakir
28-03-2011, 12:49 AM
12 gauge bahi 1911 is not a perfect design nothing man made is perfect .it is actually like a willies jeep .with every kind and quality of replacement part available , one likes to customize it to ones requirement . That's the fun in it and the reason people love it .
Also we don't know if it is 1911 or one more failure for Taurus , if do then may be PT 99 will be next .

AK47
28-03-2011, 12:49 AM
First of all, my regrets again to the owner.

Second, why Brownells? Why genuine 1911 parts and modifications?

I mean, leave aside the warranty claim from Taurus, can't the importer who is importing the guns from Taurus, ask for some genuine Taurus parts from Brazil, even if it takes a bit extra time?

Finally, I'm not into the more technical details, but may I ask, do extractors have some genuine "play", that may have been absent here and caused the breakage??? Just curious.

I remember Skeeter Sahib's "clunker" comments in another thread on the 1911 here, and I even asked for some justification/explanation, yet, respected Sir Skeeter seems not to have found time still to attend the thread again and reply my query.
Above incident, however, kind of explains the "clunker' statement, sadly.

I feel this is quite a serious issue, giving me some confusion as well, coz though we have quite a number of 1911 users here, apart from Chief, that too long ago, we've not heard about anyone using the 1911 Taurus extensively, for some reliable feed-back.


Regards.

Dr Zakir
28-03-2011, 12:59 AM
I have about 400 rounds through my without any problem

AK47
28-03-2011, 01:01 AM
I have about 400 rounds through my without any problem

Sir, prepare for the lunch, need to discuss my both deliberations with you, lolz!

Regards.

Dr Zakir
28-03-2011, 01:04 AM
U r welcome any time waiting for your arrival

AK47
28-03-2011, 01:08 AM
@Dr. Sahib.......Lolz! Thanks. Would be very helpful, I'm kind of 50/50 since days.

Regards.

Aquarius
28-03-2011, 01:09 AM
AK brother last time I was checking S&B Ammo on my PT1911.. fired some 30 rounds because I didn't have much stalk of it.. after that fired 50 Armscor & only ten Prvi Partizan because of short supply.. all went through it like a breeze.
Its just a matter of luck & this gentleman is the only unlucky guy on the forum to have issue with the PT1911.

BTW If its NIB he can still claim for another from the dealer.

AK47
28-03-2011, 01:12 AM
AK brother last time I was checking S&B Ammo on my PT1911.. fired some 30 rounds because I didn't have much stalk of it.. after that fired 50 Armscor & only ten Prvi Partizan because of short supply.. all went through it like a breeze.
Its just a matter of luck & this gentleman is the only unlucky guy on the forum to have issue with the PT1911.

BTW If its NIB he can still claim for another from the dealer.

I know, Sir, you were out against those bricks, lolz!

Well, how do you guess a replacement, if NIB? Any past experience?

Regards.

DUST
28-03-2011, 01:15 AM
my sympathies to the owner. atleast 50,000 + is paid for each model and you do not even get a chrome lined barrel. guns are supposed to defend the owner and in taurus case the gun is to be cared against different brand of ammo and no hard duty. even from this act alone the quality provided can be judged.
get it repaired, might find an old extractor of a colt from darra. darra still has old magazines and parts.

Aquarius
28-03-2011, 01:18 AM
I know, Sir, you were out against those bricks, lolz!

Well, how do you guess a replacement, if NIB? Any past experience?

Regards.

Well if he is a reputable dealer he should understand this problem.

AK47
28-03-2011, 01:20 AM
Well if he is a reputable dealer he should understand this problem.

Thanks Sir, Hopefully for our brother here.

Regards.

Mitho
28-03-2011, 01:43 AM
Never heard a norinco 1911 doing this........they may be butt ugly but they work.even the western forum consider norc 1911 as the best clones out there.
So if u wana 1911 clone go for a norc.

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 01:48 AM
it is actually like a willies jeep .with every kind and quality of replacement part available , one likes to customize it to ones requirement . That's the fun in it and the reason people love it.

Sir, you are absolutely right. however unfortunately I have never met willies jeep owner whose best friend in the whole wide world isn't a mechanic or a scrap yard owner. one more thing, I have learned about willies jeep owners is that they spend a considerable amount of their time tinkering their jeeps to get reliability, durability and performance out of it.

one can say its a passion that a willies jeep owner pursues but one can also say that its a constant P-I-T-A to get a willies jeep into a decent working condition. the other side of the picture, you know what I mean? :)

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 01:55 AM
Salam All,
@12Gauge - HMMM... ok.
I would like to sympathize with the owner regarding this obvious MANUFACTURING FAULT, nothing in life is absolute, and if we all agree to this then NO guns are absolutely without faults.
@12Gauge - Well done on the fault finding mission. Please allow me to add: the extraction port on the 1911s should also be lowered on the ejection side (forgot the proper measurement) because sometimes an expended cartridge will collide causing a FTF. The ejection port should also be beveled in the rear side of the port. The barrel bushing should be changed and a solid barrel should be adopted so that there is little of no chance of the solid bushing breaking. Bro, the list goes on and on. In most cases today, the latest models of 1911s have all these features incorporated. But does that mean that the older model 1911 owners should feel cautious about using their 1911s? Absolutely not. Glock some years ago during a demonstration at the LasVegas Shot Show managed to have their pistol's recoil guide rod break in front of millions of people. Has anyone forum member here have this happen to their Glock? I have not had this happen. Same goes for the 1911, I have never in the past 20+ years had a 1911 break on me. Yes, I have had some with malfunctions, but nothing that one can't fix easily.
Your point regarding Taurus's lifetime warranty is an issue I believe. I know its there if one is in States, I don't know about here. I do NOT think it will be a problem to have your friend send those nice photos posted above via email and tell them about this mishap with this specific gun out of many thousands probably. I am sure they will reply and also send you a replacement.

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 02:13 AM
Second, why Brownells? Why genuine 1911 parts and modifications?

Sir, try ordering them from Taurus and you'll soon find out their hospitality which is as warm as winter nights. on top of that, finding Taurus replacement parts online is also very difficult.


I mean, leave aside the warranty claim from Taurus, can't the importer who is importing the guns from Taurus, ask for some genuine Taurus parts from Brazil, even if it takes a bit extra time?

yes, good point. the importer is being consulted. I'm sure he can arrange extra parts but the time involved would pretty much render the handgun nothing more than a paper weight for sometime.


Finally, I'm not into the more technical details, but may I ask, do extractors have some genuine "play", that may have been absent here and caused the breakage??? Just curious.

actually, there is no play. infact there shouldn't be. however there is tension in the extractor. this tension makes the extractor ride up on the cartridge rim and firmly grip it using the extractor claw.


I remember Skeeter Sahib's "clunker" comments in another thread

I'm sure in Skeeter60 Sb's world (atleast for the time being), every handgun which is not a CZ-75 (or its variant) is an absolute clunker and should be disposed off without a moments notice. Lols!

on a brighter note: he must be pretty close to an Pakistan Exclusive Dealership by now. hahahah!


I feel this is quite a serious issue, giving me some confusion as well, coz though we have quite a number of 1911 users here, apart from Chief, that too long ago, we've not heard about anyone using the 1911 Taurus extensively, for some reliable feed-back.

Dont worry, it could be an isolated event. it could be a lemon that was passed on to my dear friend. Part failure can happen anywhere and with anyone. however I'm merely insisting that 1911 design in its very core is more prone to parts failure than contemporary handgun designs. I am in no way suggesting that Taurus only makes lemons. infact whenever you buy a budget firearm, the chances of one coming across a lemon significantly increase.

one thing I would like to mention is here is that, I do know an PG esteemed member who owns a high end (match grade custom) 1911 which is nothing more than an absolute jam-o-matic. I wonder the problem is in the design or quality control. nevertheless, a jam-o-matic is nothing more than a paper weight which at best can double as a single shot firearm. no matter how expensive it is and the excuse of lack of quality control of a firearm of Canadian Origin but produced in a US facility holds no value.

I do love his "this firearm needs atleast 500 rounds for a proper break-in" post failure comments.

Regards.

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 02:41 AM
Please allow me to add: the extraction port on the 1911s should also be lowered on the ejection side (forgot the proper measurement) because sometimes an expended cartridge will collide causing a FTF. The ejection port should also be beveled in the rear side of the port. The barrel bushing should be changed and a solid barrel should be adopted so that there is little of no chance of the solid bushing breaking. Bro, the list goes on and on.

wo! wo! wo! hold your horses BnS. are you suggesting that a customer should walk into a bakery to bake his own cake? NO! when you go to a bakery, you expect the baker to bake a cake for you and you expect the cake to be atleast "as advertised". you never (i'll repeat) ever come home with a half baked cake.

"There you go sir, take this cake, put it in the oven set the heat properly, dont ask me your doing the baking not me, sprinkle some sugar on it. add a little layer of chocolate and dont use cheap chocolate cause it tastes funky. kindly do make sure to add a little whipped cream here and there and I almost forget, I didn't write what I was supposed to write on it but since you are doing most of my job (and paying me for your) you might as well write whatever you wanna write on it. look at it this way, your handwriting is probably alot better than mine. and may I add sir, here is a paper and a pen and do write whatever you did to make this piece of dough look like a finished cake so you can brag about how you made a high end (read: delicious) cake in front of your friends later." hahahahhahah! you crack me up , Moeen Bhai.

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 02:43 AM
Salam All,
@12Gauge - Bro, please don't beat around the bush, it was my gun, it was the Para-Ordnance. It was NOT my Colt, matter of fact I know someone who recently went firing with me with a very old beat down Colt. I was expecting that thing to jam not ridiculously... rather ridonculously... guess what? It didn't jam, not once, not ever! As to clearing the your wonder part, its the quality control issue with Para as they are still in the process of completing their facility in the US which is where this firearm came from. Furthermore, I know what the issue was AND still is with that gun, I am just being lazy in fixing it. That gun only came out to satisfy your urgent needs for that shooting event, I recalled wanting to bring out the Colt. And I have never stated 500 rounds to you, I have merely suggested it. I don't recall any 1911 owner here who has had jams AND has fired 500 or above rounds.

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 02:45 AM
12g bro, there are things in your life that you love no matter how problematic they are :mad: like I love my wife despite all her ailments and extensive medical bills :becky: so a 1911 is something to love and be taken care of.

P.S. I know you already have one problematic thing just need another & that is a 1911 ;)

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 02:48 AM
Salam All,
@12Gauge - Bro, please don't beat around the bush, it was my gun, it was the Para-Ordnance. It was NOT my Colt, matter of fact I know someone who recently went firing with me with a very old beat down Colt. I was expecting that thing to jam not ridiculously... rather ridonculously... guess what? It didn't jam, not once, not ever! As to clearing the your wonder part, its the quality control issue with Para as they are still in the process of completing their facility in the US which is where this firearm came from. Furthermore, I know what the issue was AND still is with that gun, I am just being lazy in fixing it. I need to deburr the firing pin safety, it collides with the firing pin. That gun only came out to satisfy your urgent needs for that shooting event, I recalled wanting to bring out the Colt. And I have never stated 500 rounds to you, I have merely suggested it. I don't recall any 1911 owner here who has had jams AND has fired 500 or above rounds.

Gotcha! Lols!

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 02:54 AM
@12Gauge - Most of the 1911s, here that I have come upon here are the older models 20+ years old, my Colt included, the older Colts did need some finishing touches to get them to be flawless, the cncs, investment castings and other such manufacturing techniques weren't really there when these old 1911s were made. However, with todays manufacturing processes, parts interchangeability, tighter tolerances give less chance to manufacturing faults equaling to a good product less likely to malfunction... ie the Taurus1911 aside from this absolute disaster with your friend, ask some of your other forum friends if their 1911 has ever jammed or broken?

AK47
28-03-2011, 02:57 AM
12Gauge wrote:


I'm sure in Skeeter60 Sb's world (atleast for the time being), every handgun which is not a CZ-75 (or its variant) is an absolute clunker and should be disposed off without a moments notice. Lols!

Ha ha ha ha! And you know what, the first 2 "clunkers" of his, that went straight out to the garbage, were 2 heavenly Glocks, and the 3rd is in the dump channel as well, lolzzzzzzzz!

Indeed FA is his favorite pet these days, whilst we all like to stay miles away, lolz!

Problem with beloved Skeeter Sir is just that his lordship only clicks on the threads here of utmost or momentary interest/importance, someone plz sms him to get over here now, lolz!

Moeen bro's post are always optimistic with respect to replacements, etc, and I agree with him, these pics should be forwarded to Taurus right away, after checking out the right person to send to, and they damn well can google any weapon info over the net and find PakGuns as one most commonly displayed link there!

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 02:57 AM
@12Gauge - I never went anywhere to be "Gotchaad". Furthermore you are welcome to try out another member's ParaOrd, it doesn't jam. Sooo where is my sympathy? I too have ended up with a lemon! Lols.

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 03:02 AM
its the quality control issue with Para as they are still in the process of completing their facility in the US which is where this firearm came from.

ok, so since they are still completing their facility, they should not be held accountable for the quality of their "advertised" firearm. why don't we relieve them of the firearm safety standards while we are at it. you know since they are in a process of finishing their facility. ofcourse, any responsible company would focus more on their own facility then the products they are selling. ofcourse any responsible company would reduce the quality of their products and divert its resources in finishing its facilities first. its only logical. come on, Bro!. you do really believe that?


Furthermore, I know what the issue was AND still is with that gun, I am just being lazy in fixing it. I need to deburr the firing pin safety, it collides with the firing pin.

and the prosecution rests. The company sold lemon, its the owner's responsibility to get the lemon of its lemon like state. I would call it a very expensive lemon proposition. hahahaha!

Regards.

p.s. you should have realized by now that i'm only doing this to yank your chain a bit. ;)

AK47
28-03-2011, 03:07 AM
Boy, what a bad luck, this lemon failed in front of you! The night's yours no doubt, enjoy, whilst I really hope you weren't my "blessing in disguise", lolz!

Regards.

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 03:11 AM
12g bro, there are things in your life that you love no matter how problematic they are :mad: like I love my wife despite all her ailments and extensive medical bills :becky: so a 1911 is something to love and be taken care of.

P.S. I know you already have one problematic thing just need another & that is a 1911 ;)

12GAUGE just wants to have a little fun ;)

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 03:14 AM
@12Gauge - you have "Yanked" enough. Lols. Bro, there are NO safety standards set by US laws, only those set within an industry competing against each other. As for purchasing a Lemon, well, anyone can get end up with a lemon, case in point your first CZ999 incident - did you know what the result was going to be? NO, and I remember you were livid and wanted someones head on a platter. Same applies to me - the Gun has good reviews, I had never owned or fired one before purchasing this one. Only spoken to someone who purchased one from the Canada and bought it back and he has had no complaint about it up till now. It was only after the purchase I realized that this thing came from US and not Canada. And I am still happy with my purchase - no regrets as you have no regret about your CZ999.

AK47
28-03-2011, 03:17 AM
@12Gauge - you have "Yanked" enough. Lols. Bro, there are NO safety standards set by US laws, only those set within an industry competing against each other. As for purchasing a Lemon, well, anyone can get end up with a lemon, case in point your first CZ999 incident - did you know what the result was going to be? NO, and I remember you were livid and wanted someones head on a platter. Same applies to me - the Gun has good reviews, I had never owned or fired one before purchasing this one. Only spoken to someone who purchased one from the Canada and bought it back and he has had no complaint about it up till now. It was only after the purchase I realized that this thing came from US and not Canada. And I am still happy with my purchase - no regrets as you have no regret about your CZ999.

@Moeen.......Not to have you hung up here, but what the heck, this was indeed of "classified" nature to me, lolzzz!

Regards.

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 04:21 AM
Sorry accidentally repeated my post.

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 04:30 AM
:) A thread about 1911s... yummy :)

Let me state here first off... that I am a die hard fan of 1911s and the ONLY gun that I own currently and use exclusively is a PT-1911. (I see whats coming... sometimes its fun to be labeled ;))

Just like any other gun ever made, 1911s aint perfect. Being a 'pioneer' in the 'modern' gun technology (the recoil-operated semi-automatics) John Browning's principle of the 'short-recoil' is the main feature of any so called modern handgun today. Yes there have been improvements over the time, but the basic principle that almost every handgun of today uses is the same: JB's SRS (Short Recoil System). A fun fact is that most Glock users who like to diss 1911s don't know that their guns are short-recoil operated too. I told this to a friend of mine and he was like "what? really?" lol

So what makes a 1911 more desirable than any other handgun out there? For me, its the soul. It is the individual personality of each of the 1911, and the extra amount of care that it needs more than any other gun that makes it desirable for me. Its like saying that my 1911 is MY 1911. I have tweaked it, customized it to my preferences and it aint some gun you can just pick up off a counter. My 1911 is MY 1911. It aint A GLOCK 17, which are all the same. When you put so much time cleaning, customizing and training with your 1911, it truly becomes an extension of your psyche. Thats what I dig.

They say, if someone else has said it before you and for you, you should quote unless you can top the quote. I may be able to top what Tom Givens said about 1911s, but for now, lemme just quote him:

"As a "fighting" handgun, a properly set up and tuned 1911 has no equal. It has superb ergonomics, redundant safeties, excellent reliability and longevity, and the best trigger action available on any common service pistol. The trigger alone makes it the easiest service pistol to shoot well at speed. My primary handgun every single day, 365 days a year, is a lightly customized 1911.

That said, the 1911 is NOT a gun for the casual user, or what we call NDP's (non-dedicated personnel). The gun was designed when technology was expensive, but skilled labor was not. The exact opposite is true today. A carry 1911 should be gone over by an experienced specialist (Heinie, Burns, Yam, Yost, Garthwaite, etc) and then properly maintained by the end user. The average cop or typical CCW holder would be better served with a Glock or SIG in most cases. If you're willing to spend the money to get a properly set up 1911 and TRAIN with it, then you're not "average".

Last year I took three classes as a student (Taylor, Gonzales, Suarez) and the year before one from Clint Smith. In each of those classes I fired about 800 rounds through my carry 1911 without cleaning it and with zero malfunctions. At the NTI last year, I dropped an impact target with about an eight inch square vital zone at approximately 80 yards, from an awkward position, with one shot from my carry 1911, while being filmed by a TV crew. The superb trigger on my gun made that a lot easier. Since I have a choice in my personal weapons, I choose to carry the system that stacks the odds in my favor. My life is worth the extra expense/effort. YMMV."

The operative word being "dedication". The so called 'modern' firearms require less maintenance and are prone to less malfunctions even if not 'treated well' and, thence, require absolutely no commitment or dedication from the user. These are tools for tactical survival. And thats that. Its like comparing samurai art of war with modern day ju jitsu survival techniques. Samurai is a way of life. It is a philosophy. Modern defensive techniques are simply that: defensive tactics without a higher intellectual or philosophical value. Or something like that :)

Having said that, a well-maintained, properly broken-in and customized 1911 would never malfunction more than any other out-of-the-box pistol ever could. In fact, a well maintained 1911 can offer more reliability than any other pistol ever made.

Here is another quote... this one by Clint Smith:

The 1911 remains popular because its an efficient tool. In more than 30 years of experience, Ive met more competent, serious gunmen who carry 1911s than those who pack any other handgun. They are professionals policemen, government agents and others who carry handguns daily because the know their live may depend on itMe? Ive carried a 1911 every single day for the past 20 years. Its a very comforting gun to have at your hip. It offers a good, consistent single-action trigger pull and is wonderfully dependable. Because the 1911 is basically a defensive handgun, Im not concerned about tight groups. I dont bother with expanding hollowpoints that could cause feeding problems. For absolute reliability, I shoot only high-quality ball ammunition. That big .45 slug doesnt have to expand to be effective.

Rosco S. Benson on rec.guns Is the 1911 an Outdated Design?:

"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman's district. Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design....and that's exactly what I love about it."

Now thats the difference! For a non-dedicated casual user, a million reasons could be found to not to adopt a 1911 battery. But for an above-average dedicated 1911 dh, thats the only way to go.

One last quote... from Jeff Cooper

The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.

Guns & Ammo, January 2002

[All quotes taken from http://www.sightm1911.com]

Now don't get me wrong. I maybe 1911 biased... but I am not dissing any other make. All have their appropriate places in modern history and may fit different systems of CC/SD/HD. I am also a huge fan of HK and have shot HK USP45 many times and love it. But I like the 1911s better... for their aesthetic value (beautiful beautiful guns), their customizing options and the connection. But thats my personal choice. Thats just me.

On the tactical side, I have never come across another gun with as crisp a trigger as a 1911. The trigger my father's Kimber had was unbelievable. I have not been able to do a mozambique drill in under 2.5 secs with any other gun ever. Maybe its 'cuz of my bigger hands... and when I acquire a two-handed high-thumbed tactical grip on other pistols, it makes my trigger finger not reach properly the trigger and causes me to yank at it instead of pressing it with consistent movement. Plus the DA/SA trigger has never been my cup of tea. For its trigger alone, I would choose a 1911 over any other pistol any given day if I had a choice for only one pistol. If I could get more I would add an HK USP45 and a Walther P99 to my battery of arms.

@ 12 Gauge brother...

Like you stated brother, Taurus PT-1911 is a 'budget' gun... so you would expect that from it. Once you get the extractor replaced and have some 1000 rounds through it, hopefully it won't agitate you again ;)

The quote about the '4 shortcomings' was very nice. It is common knowledge about 1911s though. It is what we call "known issues" in IT language. And the answer is given towards the end of the article itself, that with proper maintenance, proper ammo and an 'eye-out' for anything out of the usual, none of these issues should be a problem.

So I wish you all the best mate. Just a humble request though from a 1911 DH: don't give up on the 1911s so soon :) :) lol

By the way... Here is an intellectual question to all that assume 1911s have weaknesses:

What do you define as a weakness? Is it an innate shortcoming, a weakness beyond cure in most of the cases, a humane situation viz-a-viz the Divine? Do you think guns can actually have weaknesses or strengths? Aren't these simple tools in the hands of a warrior? The weakness of a weapon is the weakness of its master. Don't be a slave to your weapon system, be its master. Know it inside out. Enjoy a command over it not be a subordinate to it.

The weapon is the mind... not the gun. If you think guns win wars, think again, you might not have read you art of war thoroughly enough. Men win wars. If you are not willing to defend yourself, your freedom or your family, no gun would ever do it for you.

Two cents from a 1911 fan :)

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 05:00 AM
And just an addition to the selectively quoted article by our brother in arms 12gauge... here is the ending of the very same article:

"Emphatically, yes; the 1911 is worth it. The 1911's overwhelming virtue is how easy it is to shoot. Quite simply, the 1911 design gives us the shortest, most controllable trigger pull of any handgun. In this area, all other one-hand guns must take a back seat to the grand old design. In my recent article on the easiest handguns to shoot, the Colt Government Model outshot several of the more modern designs, placing third out of five guns I tested. I believe it might have placed even higher, but I was determined that all the guns in my shootout be as stock as possible, so before testing the Government Model I replaced the excellent wooden Spegel grips the piece normally wore with the rubber wraparound grips that had come stock on the gun. The rubber wraparounds really bulked up the grip, changing a gun that had fit my hand wonderfully well into a gun that didn't fit my hand at all. The fact that I was still able to fire the piece well is, I feel, a tribute to the Government Model's inherent shootability.

Another thing I like very much about the 1911 is that it's the only serious, heavy-duty combat handgun out there that can be totally detail stripped without tools. Not to get too Zen here, but when I know I can totally disassemble my carry gun and put it back together again using nothing but my own hands, it gives me a wonderful sense of being one with the gun.

No, the 1911 is not a gun for the casually interested. However, for the dedicated shooter who's willing to take the time to get to know the design intimately, the 1911 is still a superior choice in a defensive handgun. Unlike most things in life, the 1911 has strengths that more than compensate for its flaws. If it's not perfect, well, what is??"

From ditto source: http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_Maintain.htm

;)

coolbox18
28-03-2011, 10:39 AM
It is famously said that 1911 extractors are like light bulbs; they last for ever or go off real early. This is common for all 1911s, and not specific to pt1911 by Taurus. Sheer bad luck, but by no means does undermine the overall quality of pt1911 in particular, one of the few good weapons (besides the pt92/99) by Taurus (ironically, both are not original Taurus designs!)
Just google up two things, and you would get an idea

1. 1911 extractor failure
2. Taurus pt1911 torture test (youtube)

Starfish
28-03-2011, 12:00 PM
Well, just yesterday, after shooting some of the legendary 9mms throughout the day at the range, I finished off with a target of 1911 and I must say that the gun is a pure please to shoot. Natural is the word that comes to mind. I was reminded about the "low effort" point ability. Just like switching the difficulty level in minesweeper :P the gun kind a puts your mind in the easy mode. Even though i was tired and just wanted to sit down and have a cup o tea, the 1911 lured me. and I m happy I listened to the call.
There is a reason why enthusiasts have multiple pieces. Every thing has something to offer which the other doesnt.
Variety is the spice of life. Celebrate it.

And cmon guys, extractors, slide stops etc are expendable. Focus on the fun :P

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 12:31 PM
Well, just yesterday, after shooting some of the legendary 9mms throughout the day at the range, I finished off with a target of 1911 and I must say that the gun is a pure please to shoot. Natural is the word that comes to mind. I was reminded about the "low effort" point ability. Just like switching the difficulty level in minesweeper :P the gun kind a puts your mind in the easy mode. Even though i was tired and just wanted to sit down and have a cup o tea, the 1911 lured me. and I m happy I listened to the call.
There is a reason why enthusiasts have multiple pieces. Every thing has something to offer which the other doesnt.
Variety is the spice of life. Celebrate it.

And cmon guys, extractors, slide stops etc are expendable. Focus on the fun :P

So a 1911 is fun to own,shoot, play, tweak BUT and again a big BUT can you trust it for your life ? probability of breaking an extractor or ejector (making it ole single shot gun) on any round will lessen your probability of escaping live from a situation you keep these things for.

No doubt the particular 1911 being discussed gave owner a pleasure/chance to have an outstanding new extractor installed but if it was an SD situation his WARSAN would have been arranging a great KAFAN DAFAN ceremony for him by now ;)

someone_001
28-03-2011, 01:11 PM
Nice Photo shoot ... Second picture looks scary
always keep the gun pointing safe direction ... .

Starfish
28-03-2011, 01:20 PM
So a 1911 is fun to own,shoot, play, tweak BUT and again a big BUT can you trust it for your life ? probability of breaking an extractor or ejector (making it ole single shot gun) on any round will lessen your probability of escaping live from a situation you keep these things for.

No doubt the particular 1911 being discussed gave owner a pleasure/chance to have an outstanding new extractor installed but if it was an SD situation his WARSAN would have been arranging a great KAFAN DAFAN ceremony for him by now ;)

True that. For SD purposes, you keep a gun, may be two. The number of handguns most enthusiasts have is not about SD. More like a hobby / enthusiast thing. Right? So every gun enthusiast, who has more than 2 or may be 3 guns in his possession should definitely have a 1911. Thats all I am saying.

Starfish
28-03-2011, 01:23 PM
Also Denovo Sb, malfunctions do and can occur in any gun. Kafan Dafan possibility is always just a small step away :P you just never know when you will take that step.

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Also Denovo Sb, malfunctions do and can occur in any gun. Kafan Dafan possibility is always just a small step away :P you just never know when you will take that step.

I said PROBABILITY ;)

AK47
28-03-2011, 01:32 PM
So a 1911 is fun to own,shoot, play, tweak BUT and again a big BUT can you trust it for your life ? probability of breaking an extractor or ejector (making it ole single shot gun) on any round will lessen your probability of escaping live from a situation you keep these things for.

No doubt the particular 1911 being discussed gave owner a pleasure/chance to have an outstanding new extractor installed but if it was an SD situation his WARSAN would have been arranging a great KAFAN DAFAN ceremony for him by now ;)

Exactly my serious reflections since this episode. We got to admit, this was a demoralizing happening, for those like me and probably many more as well, who wish to keep it for SD concerns. Perhaps not as much for those who already have it, but for those who were in the process of having it, it can have some course changing effects, no doubts.

Look, let me say, for range shooting/sports/fun, these things are not to be blown out of proportions, I admit, parts failure can happen with any weapon as such and can be changed/replaced as well, with a bit of effort. But for the guy who'd like to carry it for personal defense, I agree with Denovo bro, a more typical pattern of such outcome is bad statistics, for sure.

Now, I know, some respected brother may come and say: "Look, this was a trusted weapon for the US forces since 1911 and up to mid/end 70'ties, do you rate it unworthy for serious conflicts"? My advanced answer is, that at the time of it's adoption and the era after that, there weren't really much sophisticated other options of hard hitting stuff, present. Besides, changing a service weapon, just like that, is not quite easy at all. The Americans know of the locking lug failure tendencies of the Beretta M-9 as well, and have had a couple of improvisations made by Beretta in the later versions of that handgun, but the problem/tendency with the M-9 is still there, and they're not changing their service weapon still, coz it's not something that can be done by the wink of an eye, requires quite some time to do, as well as selecting amongst other options. Yes, I know, there have been deliberations in the US on re-instating the .45 again, but I'm sure, if that ever happens, it's not gonna be the good old 8 shots SA 1911 again, rest assured.

These self-replied answers above were mainly for our beloved CD bro, who indeed came up with excellent posts and inputs above, the great 1911 fan that he is, absolutely excellent enlightenment by worthy quotes, +1!

Checking around on Taurusarmed, below excerpts show very typical patterns of extractor failures, which quite surprisingly, never were brought before here:


"Mine also broke after about 50 rounds. Rather than send the gun in to Taurus, I sent the chipped extractor and they sent me the new part to install myself. Cost me nothing"

and:

" Mine also shit out after 40 rounds... I ordered an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor. It dropped right in and has worked flawlessly.. From what i have read, it sounds like it should have not worked" ?

and:

I have some 6000 rounds through mine (OEM) and just cleaned the extractor for the first time. Very gunky, but it was still slinging brass when I decided to clean it. Works well still and don't expect to replace it anytime soon (but will clean it sooner than the last time)


You only need to google up Taurus 1911 "Extractor failures/breakages" to find tonnes of such reports, hence the issue seems a common one.

For the die-hard fans, let's leave it there, yet my question is back to Denovo bro's assertions above, would it be a good choice for serious SD/ PDW?


Regards.

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 01:42 PM
So a 1911 is fun to own,shoot, play, tweak BUT and again a big BUT can you trust it for your life ?

Absolutely yes. The extractor is actually the first thing that should be 'tweaked' and 'changed' on a 1911 when you first buy the gun. Then there are other maintenance tasks which include tweaking the barrel bushing etc for a reliability unmatched by any other firearm. If I own a 1911 for SD (and I do by the way) I will make sure these tweaks were in place. And once these are and I have at least 500 rounds through it, I will bet my life on it every given day. Cuz it would thence become the most reliable firearm one can imagine. Thats actually the Philosophy of Use for 1911s.

There are endless testimonials of professionals for 1911s, people who have bet their lives on a customized well-maintained 1911 and never had a complaint. Just to give you an example, each member of the LAPD SWAT unit bets his/her life on a Kimber every day... in high risk situations. They've never been let down. Makes me wonder why didn't these elite tactical personnel also choose just another plastic handgun :eyebrows:

:grouphug: :)

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 01:51 PM
CD bro, the particular 1911 in question here is factory tweaked/upgraded (or claimed to be) gun and some Tauri lovers claim that it includes $1200 worth of tweaks out of the box and yes its extractor n ejector been claimed as TWEAKED, hardened, honed, polished, calibrated & what not ;)

below is what you get for free (beside constant headache) with a Taurus PT191,

.................................................. ...........................................
TAURUS PT 1911 FEATURES AT RETAIL VALUE
.................................................. ...........................................

Full length guide rod & reverse plug $35
Heinie Straight Eight Sights 150
Serrated slide rear and front 100
Checkered 30-lpi trigger guard 50
Checkered 30-lpi mainspring housing 60
Checkered 30-lpi frontstrap 150
Ambidextrous safety 125
Beavertail grip safety with memory pad 120
Skeletonized hammer 60
Skeleton serrated trigger 100
Trigger job 100
Custom fit barrel (air-gauged bushing) 100
Custom slide to frame fit 100
Polished feedramp and barrel throat 50
Lowered and flared ejection port 60
Custom internal extractor 75
Extended mag release button 35
Beveled mag well 100
Extra 8-round magazine 30
SUBTOTAL 1600
Basic Mil-Spec Model 1911 pistol 500
.................................................. ...........................................TOTAL 2100

Moeen
28-03-2011, 02:28 PM
Salam All,
@Denovo87 - Salam bhai, actually many SWAT agencies in the US choose to use the 1911; furthermore I recall that one officer (Gainesville Florida, Alachua County) I was friends with qualified with his 1911 on the range and the reason for it was that he was much more familiar with the 1911 and trusted his gun over what the department had issued to him.... which was a Glock. Even better I think we need to get someone's opinion we members know shoots the heck out of his 1911 - Steven Cline.
Bottom line is this bhai, odd failures occur, a lemon can end up in anyones hands, I am a firm believer that such small failures exist in almost all things out there... afterall they are being made by humans who are also not perfect.

As for the LAPD SWAT: http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_0212_lapd/
Delta Force: http://hubpages.com/hub/Facts-about-the-Delta-Force

Skeeter60
28-03-2011, 03:31 PM
I am for CZs because I get these here at almost the same or a justify-able bit more than they cost in the paradise of gun lovers.
Paying 10 times to 12 times for any thing is insane. I get max value for my money in the CZs and these are accurate than the competition.
Being 63 years young I don't want to be taken for a ride by these half witted Smugglers who encash our lust for guns. Yes if the Glocks cost the same here as the Rami which they should by all calculations; I would have at least two of each caliber and model of the Glock as well. I was probably the first to buy an ugly glock green in colour, with smooth grips which would sometimes double so fast I had to see the impacts to believe it doubled, once it slam fired and then I bought a black one from the the Rifle and Pistol Club at Fort Banning Columbus Ga for a princely sum of about 300 USD. I bought the first one in 1980s; I remained in love with it and sincere as I am; I still love it but not at this price. I can have 3 CZs and save money for six months worth of 9mm ammo by selling off my Glock

Dr Zakir
28-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Nice denovo BAhi 12 gauge definetly needs another problem

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 03:42 PM
Exactly my serious reflections since this episode. We got to admit, this was a demoralizing happening, for those like me and probably many more as well, who wish to keep it for SD concerns. Perhaps not as much for those who already have it, but for those who were in the process of having it, it can have some course changing effects, no doubts.

Look, let me say, for range shooting/sports/fun, these things are not to be blown out of proportions, I admit, parts failure can happen with any weapon as such and can be changed/replaced as well, with a bit of effort. But for the guy who'd like to carry it for personal defense, I agree with Denovo bro, a more typical pattern of such outcome is bad statistics, for sure.

Now, I know, some respected brother may come and say: "Look, this was a trusted weapon for the US forces since 1911 and up to mid/end 70'ties, do you rate it unworthy for serious conflicts"? My advanced answer is, that at the time of it's adoption and the era after that, there weren't really much sophisticated other options of hard hitting stuff, present. Besides, changing a service weapon, just like that, is not quite easy at all. The Americans know of the locking lug failure tendencies of the Beretta M-9 as well, and have had a couple of improvisations made by Beretta in the later versions of that handgun, but the problem/tendency with the M-9 is still there, and they're not changing their service weapon still, coz it's not something that can be done by the wink of an eye, requires quite some time to do, as well as selecting amongst other options. Yes, I know, there have been deliberations in the US on re-instating the .45 again, but I'm sure, if that ever happens, it's not gonna be the good old 8 shots SA 1911 again, rest assured.

These self-replied answers above were mainly for our beloved CD bro, who indeed came up with excellent posts and inputs above, the great 1911 fan that he is, absolutely excellent enlightenment by worthy quotes, +1!

Checking around on Taurusarmed, below excerpts show very typical patterns of extractor failures, which quite surprisingly, never were brought before here:


"Mine also broke after about 50 rounds. Rather than send the gun in to Taurus, I sent the chipped extractor and they sent me the new part to install myself. Cost me nothing"

and:

" Mine also shit out after 40 rounds... I ordered an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor. It dropped right in and has worked flawlessly.. From what i have read, it sounds like it should have not worked" ?

and:

I have some 6000 rounds through mine (OEM) and just cleaned the extractor for the first time. Very gunky, but it was still slinging brass when I decided to clean it. Works well still and don't expect to replace it anytime soon (but will clean it sooner than the last time)


You only need to google up Taurus 1911 "Extractor failures/breakages" to find tonnes of such reports, hence the issue seems a common one.

For the die-hard fans, let's leave it there, yet my question is back to Denovo bro's assertions above, would it be a good choice for serious SD/ PDW?


Regards.

Good point. I have covered it in my earlier posts though. But lemme have a go at it again :)

First off thank you for your kind comments. I appreciate your appreciation :)

And before I go into the reliability issues, lemme just address your 'service' theme quickly. You are absolutely right. Service sidearms are not easy to replace and hence, maybe, this was the reason that M1911A1 was used exclusively in WW1, WW2, Korean and Vietnam wars by the US. However, it is a MAYBE... not a fact.

I would draw your attention to the current usage of the customized 1911s. Like I mentioned before, it is the official LAPD SWAT sidearm... and they adopted it in an era where there were plenty of options to go for other "much sophisticated" handguns, as you put it. Still they chose Kimbers over all other brands. It doesnt get more tactical than the Special Weapons And Tactics team... and their weapon of choice, in modern era, is a 1911. That, alone, speaks volumes for its effectiveness.

Now about the reliability. In today's world where the paid labor costs have increased and technology is cheaper, it is but natural to rely on technology alone. Today's world is fast, mechanically fueled, providing less opportunities for intellectual or philosophical deliberations into wars or armed conflicts. You do a job, have a wife and kids that you gotta pick up and drop off... pay bills, then work some more etc etc. There is less time for a gun that you keep. Of course someone salaried and married with all the 'ghan chakars' of life would only be too unrealistic in thinking that he can put in time and efforts a 1911 requires to be perfect. If thats the case, then definitely the life of this kind of an individual cannot depend on a 1911. He has to choose a different weapon system, something like a Glock 17/19, which doesn't require more than a casual tipping off in the name of maintenance once in a while. Can shoot under adverse situations without maintenance and can feed all kinda cheap ammo without much problems. Thats the practical solution. If the price in PK is the practical problem, then even the Walthers and their likes can do the job.

On the other hand, if I were to travel a lot, including on foot tactical travel, were to shoot under extreme weather condition where my gun was gonna be dripping with mud all the time, with no leverage or time-window to clean and lubricate my gun properly... then an out of the box 1911 would definitely not be the first weapon on my list. I would rather go with an SW M&P 45 or an HK USP45. Internal striker fired and reliable out-of-the-box tools without any extra efforts on the part of the operative. That's the kinda gun I'd probably bet my life on in the given situation. However, if I had MY 1911, customized and tweaked, with which I have had a lot of training time, I would prefer to carry it over these other weapon systems.

The arguments biol down to two major points:

1. Are 1911s reliable guns out of the box?

No. You gotta put in some effort to make em absolute. Once they are, however, they are the most reliable guns in the world.

2. Apart from their aesthetic/fun and historical value, is there any practical reason why I should choose to run with a 1911 and bet my life on it every given day.

First off, it is beyond any doubt that 1911s are the most beautiful guns out there and the most pleasurable to shoot with on the range. Thats something the MAJORITY accepts.

Now the practical side: Like I said before, you gotta be the master of your weapon not its slave. If you know it inside out, you will know what needs to be tweaked and done before you start to depend on it. And thats what it takes for a 1911 user to become above-average.

To answer your question dear sir, for a serious SD/PDW, 1911 absolutely rocks IF (and thats a big if) you are able to put time and effort into it.

And the end of the day, it all comes down to the personal preferences. For me, I would bet my life even on my bare hands cuz I know I am good with em.

See if I don't like a pistol, I wont practice much with, I wont care much for it. With practice and effort, if you like a pistol, ANY pistol, it will become reliable for you. This is true for any weapon. I remember when I was traning for martial arts, I never liked Nunchaku and always preferred a cane over it. The result being that I was able to defeat multiple opponents with nunchakus with my cane. So that became my weapon of choice. Any experienced martial artist would say that nunchaku is much 'superior' to a bamboo stick... but then I aint good with those. That's how it works.

Regards mate :)

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 03:52 PM
CD bro, the particular 1911 in question here is factory tweaked/upgraded (or claimed to be) gun and some Tauri lovers claim that it includes $1200 worth of tweaks out of the box and yes its extractor n ejector been claimed as TWEAKED, hardened, honed, polished, calibrated & what not ;)

below is what you get for free (beside constant headache) with a Taurus PT191,

.................................................. ...........................................
TAURUS PT 1911 FEATURES AT RETAIL VALUE
.................................................. ...........................................

Full length guide rod & reverse plug $35
Heinie Straight Eight Sights 150
Serrated slide rear and front 100
Checkered 30-lpi trigger guard 50
Checkered 30-lpi mainspring housing 60
Checkered 30-lpi frontstrap 150
Ambidextrous safety 125
Beavertail grip safety with memory pad 120
Skeletonized hammer 60
Skeleton serrated trigger 100
Trigger job 100
Custom fit barrel (air-gauged bushing) 100
Custom slide to frame fit 100
Polished feedramp and barrel throat 50
Lowered and flared ejection port 60
Custom internal extractor 75
Extended mag release button 35
Beveled mag well 100
Extra 8-round magazine 30
SUBTOTAL 1600
Basic Mil-Spec Model 1911 pistol 500
.................................................. ...........................................TOTAL 2100

Denovo bhai... In my recent posts, I was talking generally about the 1911s and not particularly about the Taurus PT.

The PT-1911 I got cost me 90k, which is almost equal to a Kimber TLEII abroad. So all these 'free custom' features were well 'paid for'... ahhahahahahahahaha

I don't have much experience with this PT-1911, YET! Only 300 rounds through it. No hiccups so far. I've got my fingers crossed. ;) Will soon begin tweaking and customizing this baby once I get some time off from my Ph. D. programme and the job.

I don't think that PT-1911 houses the same quality of 1911 parts that other, more expensive brands do. I still think I need to get these things tweaked in a PT-1911 cuz at the end of the day, it is a cheap model. I don't know many gunsmiths around here who can do this and how much would it cost really... but my estimate is that putting in another 100$ should do the job for me. So for me there is no surprise in its extractor breaking. I wouldnt have expected much from it realistically... it aint a Kimber brother :) It DOES need the out-of-the-box tweaks! :)

BTW, you said 'besides constant headache'... wassup brother? not using ear protection while shooting PT-1911s?

:P HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH lol

safeershah
28-03-2011, 04:04 PM
I think denovo, AK47 and some other guys are trying to saying that risk ratio on 1911 is higher than other guns for SD, brother CD gave a better option for a trustworthy 1911 if you have around 3000 USD for 1911 type of gun :)

Denovo87
28-03-2011, 04:06 PM
CD bro, just arrange the parts to tweak PT1911 (two of each ;) ) you have a brilliant gunsmith available... just 175 km from Islamabad ;)

AK47
28-03-2011, 04:16 PM
@CD.........Thanks bro for the continued great inputs, reflecting feelings from the deeper core of yours. Like your way of presenting the things.

Now, first of all, the Kimbers adopted by the LAPD/SWAT are still somewhat quite different a class than an out-of-the-box Taurus PT 1911, so since the question here wasn't about a Kimber or Wilson Combat's reliability for SD/PDW, let's stick to those NIB's that we have here.

Second, what I draw from all above is this:

The 1911 needs some "tuning in " before routine SD carry, for best reliability, and a few customizations would be required/advised/recommended.

Now, this is quite easy, if you're living in the paradise of guns, with all things available at hands reach, and all the gunsmiths who know the 1911 in and out.

Here, even if parts can be arranged, which door to knock, if you're not a partial gunsmith yourself? I somehow feel the Willy's jeep example was quite a relevant comparison here.

Not everyone can develop the kind of "spiritual/philosophical/" kind of relationship with the 1911, that you are referring to, though it's good indeed, for your good self, that you can and therefore can keep enjoying your lovely beauty, wish I could do the same, I can't, sadly, and I like to just squeeze the trigger, when required.


Regards.

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 04:31 PM
Not everyone can develop the kind of "spiritual/philosophical/" kind of relationship with the 1911, that you are referring to, though it's good indeed, for your good self, that you can and there can keep enjoying your lovely beauty, wish I could do the same, I can't. sadly, and like to just squeeze the trigger, when required.
Regards.

Man I am all respect for that. 'Cuz I understand that, and even referred to this kind of state of mind in my post. So that's all good and appreciated. Let's go and get a glass of lassi each now... :) cheers :hugs:

Like I said before... at the end of the day its the personal choices we make that define who we are. Everyone is right at his/her place. The disagreements and differences in states of minds and lifestyles is what makes this life worth living. I totally understand that not every one is willing to dedicate his/her precious time to a 1911 and bond with it philosophically and intellectually. And that is well appreciated by all means.

Now about the particular 1911 in case. I would definitely agree with you brother. In the realistic situation in Pakistan, I think there are better choices than a PT-1911. I have said numerous times that a Walther P99 is on my list next and I believe it can be had for around 60k (last time i checked) and is a reliable gun right out of the box, the kind you can bet your life on. So are the CZs. Given our circumstances, it would be sheer pigheadedness and unrealistic tunneled vision approach to disagree with you on that point.

The question remains: why did I then not go for a Walther for that matter? The ONLY reason I still chose a cheap 1911 over a better out of the box option was MY level of familiarity with the system, its ergonomics as it fits my hands and its crisp trigger pull that I am able to bet my life on. Simple.

Thank you AK bhai for your input and this engagement in intellect. It is sheer pleasure to engage with you mano a mano intellectually :) Hope to hear more from you on this topic. ;)

Oh and BTW, I still believe .22 is for ladies... lol :):)

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 04:33 PM
CD bro, just arrange the parts to tweak PT1911 (two of each ;) ) you have a brilliant gunsmith available... just 175 km from Islamabad ;)

Holy Molly brother... why didnt you tell me before? :getstowork:

;) :)

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 04:52 PM
So a 1911 is fun to own,shoot, play, tweak BUT and again a big BUT can you trust it for your life ? probability of breaking an extractor or ejector (making it ole single shot gun) on any round will lessen your probability of escaping live from a situation you keep these things for.

No doubt the particular 1911 being discussed gave owner a pleasure/chance to have an outstanding new extractor installed but if it was an SD situation his WARSAN would have been arranging a great KAFAN DAFAN ceremony for him by now ;)

.........and the kafan would say "casualty of a 1911 fever, highly recommended by the late Jeff Cooper". LOLs!

Regards.

Moeen
28-03-2011, 06:11 PM
Salam All,
@12Gauge - Thats it, I am officially going to induct you into the 1911 club!!! I used to sway you away from 1911 but no more. HAHAHAHA... time to get you involved in what you LIKE doing to your guns... work on them!!

12GAUGE
28-03-2011, 07:21 PM
:) A fun fact is that most Glock users who like to diss 1911s don't know that their guns are short-recoil operated too. I told this to a friend of mine and he was like "what? really?" lol

Bro, kindly allow me to give my humble opinion on the subject. a 2011 corolla's engine is just another evolution of the 1970's corolla (read: rust bucket). now does that it mean you go and trade in your new corolla with an old rust bucket?

My point is quiet simple. 1911 is one of hell of a design. not doubt about that. it was way ahead of its time. but dude its not 1911 anymore. this is 2011. one must understand and recognize the technological and engineering advancements that have been made over the years. when 1911 was designed, the engineering sciences were at their infacy. it is after the WW2 that engineering grew exponentially. infact there is a scientic law at work here. the more science progresses, it increases the speed of further progression. similary, as science progress, more and more discoveries are made at a much rapid speed.


So what makes a 1911 more desirable than any other handgun out there? For me, its the soul. It is the individual personality of each of the 1911, and the extra amount of care that it needs more than any other gun that makes it desirable for me. Its like saying that my 1911 is MY 1911. I have tweaked it, customized it to my preferences and it aint some gun you can just pick up off a counter. My 1911 is MY 1911. It aint A GLOCK 17, which are all the same. When you put so much time cleaning, customizing and training with your 1911, it truly becomes an extension of your psyche. Thats what I dig.

abolutey agreed. when you're right, you're right.


That said, the 1911 is NOT a gun for the casual user, or what we call NDP's (non-dedicated personnel). The gun was designed when technology was expensive, but skilled labor was not. The exact opposite is true today. A carry 1911 should be gone over by an experienced specialist (Heinie, Burns, Yam, Yost, Garthwaite, etc) and then properly maintained by the end user. The average cop or typical CCW holder would be better served with a Glock or SIG in most cases. If you're willing to spend the money to get a properly set up 1911 and TRAIN with it, then you're not "average".

absolutely agreed bro and it couldnt have been explained any better. what are you? YODA? :)


Last year I took three classes as a student (Taylor, Gonzales, Suarez) and the year before one from Clint Smith. In each of those classes I fired about 800 rounds through my carry 1911 without cleaning it and with zero malfunctions. At the NTI last year, I dropped an impact target with about an eight inch square vital zone at approximately 80 yards, from an awkward position, with one shot from my carry 1911, while being filmed by a TV crew. The superb trigger on my gun made that a lot easier. Since I have a choice in my personal weapons, I choose to carry the system that stacks the odds in my favor. My life is worth the extra expense/effort. YMMV."

OK!, so why were they filming you? kindly share. we love hollywood stories.

Regards.

Starfish
28-03-2011, 07:28 PM
For the love of god, someone get 12g a 1911!!

AK47
28-03-2011, 07:30 PM
For the love of god, someone get 12g a 1911!!

Or a time machine for the rest of us! Lolz!

Regards.

Hamid
28-03-2011, 07:34 PM
A true 1911 lover buys a lot of spare parts whenever he buys a new 1911. According to Gillani, this is the 1911 culture.

safeershah
28-03-2011, 08:06 PM
I think the original owner of this faulty gun is 12g, thats why he is so angry :) lolzzzzzz

AK47
28-03-2011, 08:33 PM
I think the original owner of this faulty gun is 12g, thats why he is so angry :) lolzzzzzz

Hmm....Now this is interesting! He may - secretly- have been "besmitten" by the raging 1911 fever and gone for it solo, who knows! He was so angry, he wouldn't pick my call yesterday, and just sent me a "tarkaau sms" about being " busy " today, lolz!

Regards.

safeershah
28-03-2011, 09:17 PM
AK47 this can be blessing in disguise, otherwise in rage he can use you as a target to reduce 1 1911 fan :) , you should thank God and give a bakra lolz

Moeen
28-03-2011, 09:26 PM
Salam All,
@12Gauge - the 1911 is an old design - this is why STI and SVI make the 2011 pistols.

safeershah
28-03-2011, 09:32 PM
Moeen bhai , no discussion or justification will calm him down until he will get a replacement of his 1911 lolz

Moeen
28-03-2011, 09:35 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - +1, 12Gauge bhai is on a war path, I am just trying to speed up his journey to a destination - a destination where he too will soon be a member of the 1911 club. Either that or he just might convince me out the 1911 club!!!

AK47
28-03-2011, 10:45 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - +1, 12Gauge bhai is on a war path, I am just trying to speed up his journey to a destination - a destination where he too will soon be a member of the 1911 club. Either that or he just might convince me out the 1911 club!!!

@Moeen.......Highlighted seems more likely bro, in addition to closing down of Taurus 1911 subsection in Brazil, lolz!

cyanide.dipped
28-03-2011, 11:46 PM
Bro, kindly allow me to give my humble opinion on the subject. a 2011 corolla's engine is just another evolution of the 1970's corolla (read: rust bucket). now does that it mean you go and trade in your new corolla with an old rust bucket?

My point is quiet simple. 1911 is one of hell of a design. not doubt about that. it was way ahead of its time. but dude its not 1911 anymore. this is 2011. one must understand and recognize the technological and engineering advancements that have been made over the years. when 1911 was designed, the engineering sciences were at their infacy. it is after the WW2 that engineering grew exponentially. infact there is a scientic law at work here. the more science progresses, it increases the speed of further progression. similary, as science progress, more and more discoveries are made at a much rapid speed.


Dear bro, your opinion is very welcome. Thankyou for it. It is as valid as mine. So by all means plz do! :)

By the same standards, let me dissect your argument for you. Your Corolla analogy is well placed. However, mechanical engineering often thrives on advancements in technology where the hand-made blueprint for the infrastructural design stays the same. The Corolla today is a built on the basic blueprint of the 70s design but is a different car for its technological aspects, for the 'mechanics' involved in it are changed to an extend where the evolution cannot beg its comparison with the basic design anymore. Comparing that to a gun would yield non sequitur results. Guns are simple design without 'mechanical marvel'. The improvements on 1911 basics have been little, very few and quite insignificant to a point where you cannot call these 'evolutionary'.

However, for the sake of argument thence, Corolla would be compared to a Porsche Cyanne or Carrera GT. Corolla is an outdated design, and even the latest corolla cannot be as reliable as a truly modern sports car, and I am not even gonna into the sports car revolution. Even if you buy a Corolla 2011 model, you will still not be utilizing the cutting-edge technology of today that makes a Porsche so much better.

For that matter, working within the same reference frame of semiotics, thence, a modern customized 1911 (eg a Kimber TLEII, my MOST fav gun on earth) would then become the 2011 equivalent of the latest Corolla model. Hence the argument would settle with a logical equation of:

1970 Corolla = an M1911 made in the 70
2011 Corolla = a modern day custom 1911 produced in 2011

You don't trade your new car for an old one, neither a new gun for an old one. ;)

Now to your second point. I think the comparison in the second argument of yours is misplaced. First, like I said before, you cannot compare guns to more sophisticated scientific advancements in technology. If it were so, then not only the 1911s but ALL handguns are outdated design. The latest discoveries in the field would beg evolution by means of utilizing the power inherent in a laser beam or in an atom. Carrying a handgun is an outdated SD measure if compared to the advancements in science. Guns are simple designs, without any mechanically engineered state-of-the-art technology utilization and have not changed much since the birth of their concept, let alone since the inception of a 1911.

"but dude its not 1911 anymore. this is 2011. one must understand and recognize the technological and engineering advancements that have been made over the years. when 1911 was designed, the engineering sciences were at their infacy. it is after the WW2 that engineering grew exponentially. infact there is a scientic law at work here. the more science progresses, it increases the speed of further progression. similary, as science progress, more and more discoveries are made at a much rapid speed."

See, the crux of the argument above pivots on the time lapse module in cognitive paradigm, which renders the argument irrelevant being an argumentum verecundiam fallacy. I fail to see where it aids the argument at hand.

If the design's being 'old' and the 'advancements in science' have anything to do with the 'effectiveness' of a weapon, then that argument would render all handguns as 'irrelevant' and 'outdated' designs. The very concept of a handgun is outdated by these standards. But if we are comparing a weapon designed (mind you, NOT biult...) in 1911 to a weapon designed in 2011, I would humbly ask what I have asked before... what exactly has changed? Doesn't your 2011 handgun has a trigger? Or does is operate by telekinetic energy? Does it not need to strike the primer with a hammer internal or external? Or does in 2011 handguns now strike primers through electromagnetic energy which is triggered by the human retina? We are not talking about medical/genetic sciences here we are talking about mechanical engineering, and e=mc2 is an old formula in physics but is it outdated? The physical laws are the same. The bullets are the same. The principals of a handgun are the same. Sure there are some tweaks introduced in modern guns that MAYBE make them more reliable right out of the box, but has there been a 'discovery' or a 'radical mass-change' that can be dubbed as a radical evolution or an earth breaking revolution? Adding a better extractor or a more polished barrel bushing or building the whole gun with plastic instead of steel can hardly be called "advancement in science". Hence, the inadequacy of the argument and irrelevance of the the analogy.

I rest my case dear brother. :)

BTW, the quotes that you commented on are not mine. These were taken from the same website from which you posted your initial quote about the 'failing' of a 1911. ;)

Warmest Regards :)

Denovo87
29-03-2011, 12:08 AM
1911 even produced in 2011 is an old design... unless they change that problematic internal (sucker) extractor to a modern trouble free external ;)

safeershah
29-03-2011, 12:12 AM
CD bro, apart from you are a very sweet guy I think your teaching skills are effecting your other parts of life including guns discussion seriously :), I am sure you will get a degree on 1911 from MIT very soon and some offer from colt or taurus as a spokeperson :) , I myself have several 1911 models and there is no shame to admit that 1911 still suck no matter what, what kind of CNC technology metal you use the flaw is in the design thats why browning uncle produce high power. the money , time, learning classes people spent to use a clunker to fire in a good way? I understand you cant compare it with modern gun but you can compare it with german luger, P38 etc , for me 1911 is just for collecting purpose unless you spent fortune on it which is not make any sense if you are a practical user instead of a collector or a diehard fan. In reality its old design gun which cant be compare with new guns.

Dr Zakir
29-03-2011, 12:48 AM
Browning hi power now that is one sweet thing . As now kimbers are available and if one odd piece does creep up it cost the same 350 plus .I bought my PT 1911 as no other option in nib.

Skeeter60
29-03-2011, 12:48 AM
.........and the kafan would say "casualty of a 1911 fever, highly recommended by the late Jeff Cooper". LOLs!

Regards.

By the way the Old Gurroo of Handguns Colonel Jeff Cooper said CZ 75 is the epitome of 9mm handguns, he also always appreciated the Glocks after initially rejecting it.

12GAUGE
29-03-2011, 01:07 AM
mechanical engineering often thrives on advancements in technology where the hand-made blueprint for the infrastructural design stays the same.

Bro, hand-made blue prints are extinct now. these day its the CAD/CAM we are talking about. so, to answer you on that part, NO! they do not remain the same. bro, any mechanical design is based around prevailing limitations in engineering, design and fabrication abilities/standards. therefore a 100 year old design can never compete with todays design in terms of engineering advancements. Me being a graduate in Fabrication and NDT (Non-Destructive-Testing) would discuss fabrication details with my dad who was also in the same field and most of the time, it was Wow! Things have really changed. I’m not talking 100 years, I’m only talking about changes in the last 5 years.

Guns are simple design without 'mechanical marvel'. The improvements on 1911 basics have been little, very few and quite insignificant to a point where you cannot call these 'evolutionary'.

my point exactly. its a outdated design to begin with and any improvements would on it would only be cosmetic at best. nothing revolutionary or evolutionary. so its pointless to insist that a 1911 would live another 100 years.


1970 Corolla = an M1911 made in the 70
2011 Corolla = a modern day custom 1911 produced in 2011
You don't trade your new car for an old one, neither a new gun for an old one. ;)

my sentiments exactly brother. you do not trade in your new car for an old one. therefore it is pointless to compare an old outdated design to more contemporary designs in handguns.


The latest discoveries in the field would beg evolution by means of utilizing the power inherent in a laser beam or in an atom.

does this even mean anything? you are probably trying to say that a proton generated beam passing through an active plasma ray of gamma discharged (re-activated) electromagnetic field not would yield enough power? Come on! Who are you kidding?


Guns are simple designs, without any mechanically engineered state-of-the-art technology utilization

so, are you saying that multi-axis CNC machines as compared to old lathe milling machines do not exist? Bro. are you saying the EDM machining as compared to old carbite cutter machining does not exist? Bro, things have really changed. Therefore the mechanical designs of todays have really progressed from old hand made blue prints to highly complex CAD/CAM based designs.


See, the crux of the argument above pivots on the time lapse module in cognitive paradigm

Seriously? No way dude! Does this sentence even mean anything? But I do like the powerful words though however I do not see any logic forming anywhere.


which renders the argument irrelevant being an argumentum verecundiam fallacy.

Kindly read this sentence really slow. Then tell me why are tall trees tall? Lemme answer that for you. A tall tree is tall because it is tall. Hahahah! another case of Ill-logical sentence.


electromagnetic energy which is triggered by the human retina?

Kindly elaborate the electromagnetic energy triggered by the human retina. I’m sure you are not talking about the electrochemical something something which is not triggered by the retina why because…… human retina isn’t a …….


Hence, the inadequacy of the argument and irrelevance of the the analogy. I rest my case dear brother. :)

You are absolutely right Bro. I have seen some wild case presentations but this one is totally unique. ;)


BTW, the quotes that you commented on are not mine. These were taken from the same website from which you posted your initial quote about the 'failing' of a 1911. ;)

Sorry, my bad. But atleast I agreed with them right?

Regards.

12GAUGE
29-03-2011, 01:22 AM
By the way the Old Gurroo of Handguns Colonel Jeff Cooper said CZ 75 is the epitome of 9mm handguns, he also always appreciated the Glocks after initially rejecting it.

Sir, I do not mean to disrespect the late Col. Jeff Cooper but he enjoys a reputation that exceeds his accomplishments. the only time he was close to real action was when he spent the battle of Guadalcanal as the training officer on Gen. Vandegrift’s staff. not on the line sir, not on the battlefield and not leading a platoon. kindly search Internet and you'll find numerous quotes of his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting. I prefer to get my advice on defense & gunfighting from men who have actually been there & done that, Massad Ayoob and Jim Cirillo.

Regards.

Skeeter60
29-03-2011, 01:49 AM
12 GAUGE, brother I thought the GUROO Jeff Cooper, had been through a lot of action from the second WWar to Korea, China and Vietnam.
The Net is rife with pros and cons of people. Late Jeff Cooper is a respected authority on weapons in the US.
Massad Ayoob is a police officer turned gun writer and makes his living writing for gun magazines, I do not doubt his expertise, frankly I am also one of his admirers and appreciate his views and experiences.
I would request you to do some more research on the very respected gun authority and you will find he jumped out of planes into the harms way on several occasions and was wounded more than once, the internet can sometimes make or break a persons reputation.
All I know is he was one of us ( GUN LOVERS ) we owe his late soul respect due , to the old marine / infantry colonel. He went to Kingdom Come in his late 80s and he went shooting till his last days. Let us be kind to the Gurroo after all they would not call him as the Gurroo if he was not one. May his soul rest in peace. Ameen

12GAUGE
29-03-2011, 02:03 AM
12 GAUGE, brother I thought the GUROO Jeff Cooper, had been through a lot of action from the second WWar to Korea, China and Vietnam.
The Net is rife with pros and cons of people. Late Jeff Cooper is a respected authority on weapons in the US.
Massad Ayoob is a police officer turned gun writer and makes his living writing for gun magazines, I do not doubt his expertise, frankly I am also one of his admirers and appreciate his views and experiences.
I would request you to do some more research on the very respected gun authority and you will find he jumped out of planes into the harms way on several occasions and was wounded more than once, the internet can sometimes make or break a persons reputation.
All I know is he was one of us ( GUN LOVERS ) we owe his late soul respect due , to the old marine / infantry colonel. He went to Kingdom Come in his late 80s and he went shooting till his last days. Let us be kind to the Gurroo after all they would not call him as the Gurroo if he was not one. May his soul rest in peace. Ameen

Sir, Col Jeff Cooper Born John Dean Cooper, but known to his friends as "Jeff", Cooper was a Marine Lieutenant Colonel who resigned his commission in 1956. He received a bachelor's degree in political science from Stanford University in 1960, a master's degree in history from the University of California, Riverside.

I have searched, kindly if you know any good sources of his war conquests and him jumping off planes and getting wounded in battles then kindly do share. however I would request you to search for his numerous quotes of his coy evasions when asked about his real-world experience with gunfighting.

Regards.

AK47
29-03-2011, 02:26 AM
By the way the Old Gurroo of Handguns Colonel Jeff Cooper said CZ 75 is the epitome of 9mm handguns, he also always appreciated the Glocks after initially rejecting it.

@Skeeter60......And our beloved Colonol here did exactly the same, just in opposite direction. Initially accepted them, finally threw them! Lolzzzz! Kidding Sir.

Regards.

cyanide.dipped
29-03-2011, 03:03 AM
CD bro, apart from you are a very sweet guy I think your teaching skills are effecting your other parts of life including guns discussion seriously :), I am sure you will get a degree on 1911 from MIT very soon and some offer from colt or taurus as a spokeperson :) , I myself have several 1911 models and there is no shame to admit that 1911 still suck no matter what, what kind of CNC technology metal you use the flaw is in the design thats why browning uncle produce high power. the money , time, learning classes people spent to use a clunker to fire in a good way? I understand you cant compare it with modern gun but you can compare it with german luger, P38 etc , for me 1911 is just for collecting purpose unless you spent fortune on it which is not make any sense if you are a practical user instead of a collector or a diehard fan. In reality its old design gun which cant be compare with new guns.

Safeershah bhai dont get too personal on me or i would really take an offense and join Kimber as their official 1911 promoter HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAH lol

Rest of your post has been covered in my replies posted earlier. And at the risk of reiterating myself, bro 1911 has all the practicality a serious shooter needs... and its still one of the best SD/HD weapons ever made. Heck, its my weapon of choice. Period. ;)

cyanide.dipped
29-03-2011, 03:54 AM
@ 12 Gauge

It is interesting how you try to counter my 'powerful' words showing off your 'scientific' vocabulary. I do love it when people do that ;) Its a nice means for a counter-attack to get the focus off the real issue. :)

What interests me more is that you have chosen to answer my post selectively. Thats makes it easier for you to pick and choose things you wanna focus at, leaving the rest (context) in blurry background. But if you go back to my posts, you will find that the context I am placing my arguments is pretty self-explanatory, is inclusive of other's POVs and is devoid of any disrespect for others ways of life.

"Bro, hand-made blue prints are extinct now. these day its the CAD/CAM we are talking about. so, to answer you on that part, NO! they do not remain the same. bro, any mechanical design is based around prevailing limitations in engineering, design and fabrication abilities/standards. therefore a 100 year old design can never compete with todays design in terms of engineering advancements. Me being a graduate in Fabrication and NDT (Non-Destructive-Testing) would discuss fabrication details with my dad who was also in the same field and most of the time, it was Wow! Things have really changed. I’m not talking 100 years, I’m only talking about changes in the last 5 years. "

Bro you are beating about the bush a lil bit. A design made utilizing CAD/CAM IS a handmade blueprint. You are not suggesting that you are using advanced AI to draw designs for you in these software by reading your mind. YOU are the one drawing stuff in CAD just as it is a human hand animating a rigged biped in Houdini for that matter. And if you talk about automations, these are scripted actions too, based on human commands. Thats the kinda blueprint I am talking about. Of course in many fields there are drastic changes every year, but we all generally agree that in pure sciences, 60/70 years ago is considered 'recent'. The 'basics' remain the same unless these are revolutionized. Thats my point. Simple and non-offensive.

"my point exactly. its a outdated design to begin with and any improvements would on it would only be cosmetic at best. nothing revolutionary or evolutionary. so its pointless to insist that a 1911 would live another 100 years."

First of all, would you be kind enough brother to point where I argued that 1911 would live another 100 years? I would be highly amused if you could lol :) I believe handguns themselves would be outdated within the next 100 yrs. Thats just me though ;)

Secondly, thank you for agreeing on my point. So it is settled that so called 'modern improvements' on John Browning's design are simply cosmetic... the Glocks and the rest have not really revolutionized or added anything to the basics of that design. Done ;)

"does this even mean anything? you are probably trying to say that a proton generated beam passing through an active plasma ray of gamma discharged (re-activated) electromagnetic field not would yield enough power? Come on! Who are you kidding?"

Actually that was a direct answer to your argument that since science has advanced so much in a hundred years, 1911s are 'outdated' and rendered ineffective. Just cuz science has advanced in these 100 years, doesnt mean everything has been rendered irrelevant. And I showed you, through my direct analogy, that your line of thinking would then render all handguns currently in use as 'outdated', simply because science has advanced so much in these 100 yrs and can harness the energy inherent in a laser beam and an atom that there is no point then hitting brass primers from a handheld steel/plastic frame.

"so, are you saying that multi-axis CNC machines as compared to old lathe milling machines do not exist? Bro. are you saying the EDM machining as compared to old carbite cutter machining does not exist? Bro, things have really changed. Therefore the mechanical designs of todays have really progressed from old hand made blue prints to highly complex CAD/CAM based designs."

Ah right. Things have changed. Its my turn to ask though, what does that mean exactly? And how is it relevant to our discussion at hand? And again, please reconsider your proposed dichotomy between a hand made design and an CAD design. Both are still HANDMADE at the end of the day. Only tools have changed. As in paper+pencil vs CAD cyberspace.

Now interestingly your analogy above only serves to highlight my original argument. Has anything changed in the basic lathe principals over the years? Without using the fancy engineering terms, the main difference between a lathe and a mill is that on a lathe, the work turns and the cutting tool is stationary, while on a mill, the tool turns and the work is stationary. And vertical or horizontal, manually operated or through computer numerical control, it stays the same. Yet it is definitely an evolution. Where is the evolution in the 'modern gun design'? Show me one 'evolutionary' change from 1911 to any of the 'modern plastic guns' and i'd be happy to give an ovation. Basics = same; basic design = same; some cosmetic changes = sure; whats the point here?

"Seriously? No way dude! Does this sentence even mean anything? But I do like the powerful words though however I do not see any logic forming anywhere."

'Does that mean anything' seems to be your mannerism. :)

I have gone and explained that 'time lapse module' again in this post as irrelevant unless directly in contradiction to any of my arguments. If it still doesn't mean anything, then lets say it doesn't, for you. No problem.

I like how you try to label my words 'powerful' in order to try to evade the argument... but THAT, brother, actually means nothing. Powerful or not, there were not counter-arguments in this sentence of yours. And BTW, accusing someone of meaningless babble is rude brother. ;)

"Kindly read this sentence really slow. Then tell me why are tall trees tall? Lemme answer that for you. A tall tree is tall because it is tall. Hahahah! another case of Ill-logical sentence."

Oh man, should I even begin talking about logic 101? It is hilarious how you attempt to insult without any scholarly background in logic. But nevermind. :)

"Kindly elaborate the electromagnetic energy triggered by the human retina. I’m sure you are not talking about the electrochemical something something which is not triggered by the retina why because…… human retina isn’t a ……."

Oh no I am talking about the Yoda something something laser beam something something technology that everyone of us should possess today just cuz its been a 100 years since 1911 design was conceived something something....

"You are absolutely right Bro. I have seen some wild case presentations but this one is totally unique. ;)"

I wouldnt drop to that level of immaturity and say that your reply was simple babble and labeling and nothing else. I respect your viewpoint, the respect I suspect you lack for me. But thats alright. I am not looking for any. ;)

My argument was never with you from the beginning brother. To your intellect is your opinion, to mine is mine. I agree on disagreement. Life goes on. No need to tauntingly and insultingly call my case 'unique' if you didn't like it ;) Cool down brother, chill out... its just a discussion.

It endeth here. I won't engage any further with you in this particular matter. :thumbsup: :rockon:

Asiftt
29-03-2011, 04:43 AM
Dear bro
Did you contacted Taurus offices/email etc... or did they reply or any solution or repair in Pk. i think u must contact them..they do sell a lot in here.

AK47
29-03-2011, 09:20 AM
@Cyanide Dipped/12Gauge........
How about you two brilliant guyz joining hands/minds and getting down to some productive work? We need a 2011 with double carburetor, or let's say 4 stacked magazine, 4 ported barrels, a double ejection port, 32 rounds capacity, digital round counter with beeping tones, oil pressure recoil mechanism, retina controlled sighting system, and some .45 ammo that freezes the target like ice, instead of killing, just like in the good old sci-fi comics, so the darn BG could be used for ice-cubes, whilst I try to look around for a good, stored up Chivas Royal Salute so the celebration could be had on the spot as well??

Let's coincide it with tomorrow's quarter final as to do the Salute some honorable justice, you guyz seem to be capable of such work in less than 24 hours - at least the blue print part of it - provided you join, lolzzzzzzz!

Hey guyz, CHILL, let's get back to business, really enjoyed your bouts, but enough is enough, we're here to discuss productively and in friendly terms, let's move on, no further "evolutionary" posts, no more of "Paradigm's" (I still don't know what the heck this word means), and let's attack the damn extractor issue, any news on that?

@Cyanide Dipped.......Really enjoy your interaction here, but kindly stick to the simplest of terms, most of us know all about the guns, but many of us just learnt hitting the damn keyboard, a PC is still an "evolution" to us, leave alone these digital "paradigm's", lolz!

Regards.

coolbox18
29-03-2011, 09:45 AM
Taken positively, the discussion is very healthy, and kinda reminded me of some good old days at PG. Keep up the knowledge flowing guys :)

Arslan_tareen
29-03-2011, 09:48 AM
lolz , nice one Ak47 bro , i would like to add my tiny winy 2 cents here with my personal experience ..
My father bought his first 1911 colt (Gov) in early 1980 and that was not NIB but a old rotten used WW2 one from Darra since then till to Date him and me have fired more then 2k rounds through it and the ammo was usually the old US military one usually founded in Darra at that time , neither him nor i have never ever faced a singe issue with it.... It has worked like a charm every time the trigger got a squeeze . i since have bought and sold 3 colt 1911s all old heavily used military ones and never heard or had a issue with them .
so moral of the story is ... screw the Taurus not 1911 ..

Starfish
29-03-2011, 10:39 AM
Wah wah. great discussion guys. What I get and by Mr. Dipped, is that guns are fairly rudimentary machines (still a marvel of human engineering and craftsmanship nonetheless) We do not need phase plasma ionic bombardment and food replicators and light crystals or 9nm fabrication processes or teleporters :P to change the design of a gun. right?
They are still machined and casted and molded and hammered and forged. If machining improves, the quality of manufacturing will improve.

If you still insist that the technology has made a life altering impact on the design of a firearm in the last 5 years, my question would be, whats the "life altering" "design" change that happened with handguns design in the last decade? even two? Even the famed glock design is at least 3 decades old now.
Thats for Mr Dipped.

AFAIK, you should have a 1911 if you have more than 3 handguns. Even if the gun malfunctions, even if its old, I d buy it.

Skeeter60
29-03-2011, 11:01 AM
@Skeeter60......And our beloved Colonol here did exactly the same, just in opposite direction. Initially accepted them, finally threw them! Lolzzzz! Kidding Sir.

Regards.
I still love the Glock and I am very comfortable with a round in the chamber of a Glock and carrying it for decades. My only regret is that the dealers are fooling us and if I can get an equally good gun for 3.5 times less, Guess what will I do. If we all stop buying at steep prices and when the demand goes down so will the prices.

Skeeter60
29-03-2011, 11:06 AM
If Col Jeff Cooper resigned (you high lighted it ) it was after 30 or more years of service.
I will not argue let every one read for himself about him and form his own opinion.

MIdreesTaj
29-03-2011, 12:26 PM
The extractor must have bad metal in its casting most probably. Even a Sig 226 can have same happened to it once in a while.

Change the extractor and no need to be hysteric.

Skeeter60
29-03-2011, 12:49 PM
The extractor must have bad metal in its casting most probably. Even a Sig 226 can have same happened to it once in a while.

Change the extractor and no need to be hysteric.
Well said. But it just so happens that it never happened to a Sig or GLock or a CZ. Specially after 20 rounds only . Twenty thousand is OK

Trigger_happy78
29-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Nice informative discussion going on here. Here r some vids related on this topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeqQ1b0CnkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLjdd8ILG54&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDuBtKq7QiI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Starfish
29-03-2011, 03:40 PM
Btw Mr Dipped, going through your posts I tried to get the gist of your point (stated in my earlier post) but there are parts I m kinda confused about. What do you mean when you cite the electro megnatism and human retina? Also it would be great if you can re iterate in simple words ( for a simpleton like myself) what you mean when you say an argument is in valid because its argumentum verecundiam fallacy? phew, that was difficult to spell. Also, time lapse module in the cognitive paradigm? Simple jack s cognition is stumped.
Viva la 1911! :d

Denovo87
29-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Btw Mr Dipped, going through your posts I tried to get the gist of your point (stated in my earlier post) but there are parts I m kinda confused about. What do you mean when you cite the electro megnatism and human retina? Also it would be great if you can re iterate in simple words ( for a simpleton like myself) what you mean when you say an argument is in valid because its argumentum verecundiam fallacy? phew, that was difficult to spell. Also, time lapse module in the cognitive paradigm? Simple jack s cognition is stumped.
Viva la 1911! :d

Try googling these... as I did with your signatures Starfish bro ;)

MIdreesTaj
29-03-2011, 04:36 PM
I will take a Sig P226 as a reference gun to the subject broken extractor issue. Hope it helps. :)

Btw as we all know Sigs are high quality FAs out of the box, this piece had a 350 rounds run before it showed below:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/kevinkovac/photo2-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/kevinkovac/photo3-1.jpg

Courtesy: http://www.handgunforum.net/sig-sauer/25116-extractor-broke-new-p226-9mm.html

Starfish
29-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Try googling these... as I did with your signatures Starfish bro ;)
I did! I understand what the latin phrase means. Just dont understand the statement / point Sir CD was trying to make.

12GAUGE
29-03-2011, 05:53 PM
I did! I understand what the latin phrase means. Just dont understand the statement / point Sir CD was trying to make.

why? just try putting some more insignificant amount of pressure on the cognitive neurological circuits of your primary thinking organ with heightened self awareness. :) the pressure needs to be summation of the derivative of the rate of change the curve which should be self integrated, proton generated, laser emitted, gamma transmitted, neutron actuated, electromagnetism adopted and voltage adjusted. hahahahah LOLs!

Regards.

and yes! this sentence too doesnt mean anything.

Starfish
29-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Ouch! my head hurts!



and yes! this sentence too doesnt mean anything.

Thanks you for the sigh of relief!

zainulabdeen
29-03-2011, 10:35 PM
why? just try putting some more insignificant amount of pressure on the cognitive neurological circuits of your primary thinking organ with heightened self awareness. :) the pressure needs to be summation of the derivative of the rate of change the curve which should be self integrated, proton generated, laser emitted, gamma transmitted, neutron actuated, electromagnetism adopted and voltage adjusted. hahahahah LOLs!

Regards.

and yes! this sentence too doesnt mean anything.


ha ha ha ha . u are great 12 gauge:p:p

HasanJamshad
29-03-2011, 10:48 PM
CD wrote.
See, the crux of the argument above pivots on the time lapse module in cognitive paradigm, which renders the argument irrelevant being an argumentum verecundiam fallacy. I fail to see where it aids the argument at hand..

I guess it states" the basic idea of whole arguments rests on a single point that says due to the passage of time things have changed drastically. This being the basis of whole thinking process and coming from someone who couldn't be taken as authority on the subject (no matter how much respected one should be) makes the whole argument irrelevant.

Just loved the whole discussion except the ending. There was actually no need of so much TAURUS/1911/Personal bashing.

Dr Zakir
29-03-2011, 11:02 PM
I was looking at the pictures and comparing with my PT 1911 , doesnt look anything wrong . R u sure there is a problem ? As my pt 1911 is working fine and picture looks the . Because if that is broken so is mine but it's shooting fine .

cyanide.dipped
29-03-2011, 11:14 PM
Btw Mr Dipped, going through your posts I tried to get the gist of your point (stated in my earlier post) but there are parts I m kinda confused about. What do you mean when you cite the electro megnatism and human retina? Also it would be great if you can re iterate in simple words ( for a simpleton like myself) what you mean when you say an argument is in valid because its argumentum verecundiam fallacy? phew, that was difficult to spell. Also, time lapse module in the cognitive paradigm? Simple jack s cognition is stumped.
Viva la 1911! :d

Dear Starfish Bhai,

My pleasure. As I understand, you have already googled the term. As to what it applied to in my post, I would like to draw your kind attention to the post of Mr. 12 Gauge to which my post was an answer.



infact there is a scientic law at work here. the more science progresses, it increases the speed of further progression. similary, as science progress, more and more discoveries are made at a much rapid speed.

See this statement actually is an argumentum verecundiam, or ipse dixit. The appeal here is to a false authority, since no lexicon or reference is cited to render the statement as valid. I simply hinted at the fact that saying that scientific progression increases the speed of further progression, HENCE, it is true that 1911s are obsolete is sheer absurdity of an argument and a logical fallacy.

The term, 'cognitive paradigm', for the sake of simplest explanation, means the intellectual understanding of a given frame of expression. For example, if we are talking about taboo, the cognitive paradigm would be the society and the social dynamics. It is the PLACEMENT of the INTELLECT in a given REFERENCE of THOUGHT PROCESSES and CONSTRUCTED IDEAS. However, to understand the term fully, one can spend countless hours studying different sources. Wikipedia lists some very rudimentary explanations for the keyword 'cognition', which could be a good starting point. However, let me stress here the incompetency of freely available sources for scholarly and deeply intellectual understanding. The most reliable sources are exclusive and can only be accessed through a properly academic channel in a library of your own choice.

However, to make it really really simple, the cognitive paradigm is simply the context of placed understanding. The time-shift module is an age-old trick of logic which works within its cognitive paradigm, ie, the time itself. The trick is, you take any idea, any invention, anything at all, place it IN THE TIME, which would AUTOMATICALLY place it in the time-lapse module, ie that time has passed since its inception/creation/invention, and if you don't like it just say that BECAUSE time has passed since its inception, this idea/invention/design etc is irrelevant in current times.

You get the point dear brother? Let us take a simple example of ethics. How many times have we heard utilitarian people say that ethics are irrelevant in the current era? Jokingly maybe, still the argument was at least very fashionable some while ago. Because the time has passed since it was considered that it is necessary to keep a promise, hence it is irrelevant weather you keep it or not in today's life, as the 'advancements' have been so mammoth that the result-oriented approach would not take into consideration the ethical implications of any sort but the outcome in your favor.

Another example: Since X amount of time has passes on so and so religious scripture; hence it is irrelevant today and not equipped well to cater to today's advancements and changes. An extremely common argument of the Atheists.

The point here is: the 'time-shift module' is irrelevant to any given cognitive paradigm UNLESS in direct relation with the given premises from which the conclusion is drawn. Simply because something is old, does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that it has become "obsolete" "irrelevant" or "useless; Unless it is SHOWN and PROVEN with a RELEVANT argument why the invention/design/creation in point is 'obsolete' or 'useless' today, the time-shift module application means absolutely nothing.

Following from the above, to say that 1911 is an old design, and since a lot of time has passed since its inception, is irrelevant to the assertion that it has become 'obsolete'.

All this very simply put, and you brother correctly and intelligently got the gist right, saying that 1911 is an old design means nothing for the concept of handgun itself is an old concept and there hasn't been a 'radical' change in this field since its original inception nor any revolution in comparison to which we can assert that 1911 design has become irrelevant.

Like Mr. Abbas said in one of his posts, unless you change the basic projectile based design of a handgun, 1911 design would remain at the top of the list. I believe it was something to that affect.

And my retina triggered electromagnetic field example was simply an added emphasis on the fact that by a time-shift module application thence we would need guns which could fire when we focus on a target with our eyes. Why? Cuz SO MUCH TIME HAS PASSED SINCE 1911 DESIGN AND SCIENCE HAS ADVANCED SO MUCH that it would be naive to still carry ANY handgun anymore for that matter. :)

Starfish brother, simply put (God, I have said that a lot already :p) I am saying what you said in your post # 94. ;)

The bottom line is, if you like 1911s, you like em. If you don't, you don't. As far as practical application goes, if you can handle a little skilled labor, a constant care, a level of dedicated commitment, and can handle the weight and recoil, it is one of the most reliable guns ever built on planet earth. If not, it aint for you.

When everything said and done, 'to every man his little cross, until he dies, and is forgotten'. I could care less if someone doesnt like 1911s. I've got better things to worry about in life than people who don't like a supposedly 'old' design of a gun. I was simply sharing my views as means of social interaction, mutual respect and sharing the knowledge and ideas. If that isn't welcomed and poses a problem, nevermind. Like I said I have got so many better things to do. I am not here to be insulted 'repeatedly' just because someone disagrees with my views.

Thankyou Starfish Brother for dwelling into my posts, appreciating my time and effort and respecting my viewpoint. I appreciate that as I appreciate YOUR time and effort in posing those questions for me. I am glad we met.

Warmest regards,
CD.

P. S.: Viva La Estrellas :)

cyanide.dipped
29-03-2011, 11:24 PM
CD wrote. .

I guess it states" the basic idea of whole arguments rests on a single point that says due to the passage of time things have changed drastically. This being the basis of whole thinking process and coming from someone who couldn't be taken as authority on the subject (no matter how much respected one should be) makes the whole argument irrelevant.

Just loved the whole discussion except the ending. There was actually no need of so much TAURUS/1911/Personal bashing.

+1 sir... you understood it right. The authority was not established by any means of lexical or scholarly reference and hence an argumentum verecundiam. The only authority in 'progression' statement would thence become the 'progression' itself, or the 'time'; hence inadequate.

Healthy debate/discussion IS what nourishes the intellect and brings us together as human beings, and more importantly as Pakistanis. Mutual respect to each other's viewpoint, life style and thinking patterns is essential. You can see from my posts above the time an effort I put into each of these because I respect everyone's opinion, viewpoint and way of thinking and so reply them honestly and respectfully. Thats who I am. Thats who I'll be.

Thankyou for your post sir.

Regards,
CD.

12GAUGE
29-03-2011, 11:46 PM
+1 sir... you understood it right. The authority was not established by any means of lexical or scholarly reference and hence an argumentum verecundiam. The only authority in 'progression' statement would thence become the 'progression' itself, or the 'time'; hence inadequate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2909426/bin/11192_2010_202_Fig1_HTML.jpg

I'll go into details later. for now i'm enjoying every minute of it. Incase some one couldnt pick out the increase in rate of scientific publications, I would suggest them to look at the slope of each curve (rate of change). it clearly shows the doubling effect. so, while its not really exponential (rather a squared cost curve) but we can clearly see that the speed of discovery is increasing with each new discovery. in short, each new discovery is being made at shorter time compared to the previous discovery.

has anyone wondered yet as to why I have opted to show only the data from 1900 to 1960s ?

Regards.

p.s. dont worry, bro, i'll eventually write down the laws (with reference). from mathematical to econometric to digital. some how dont really like the Moore's so i'll list that one in the last.

oops! almost forgot the source: Little Science, Big Science, by Derek J. de Solla, Columbia University Press.

AK47
30-03-2011, 02:37 AM
I was looking at the pictures and comparing with my PT 1911 , doesnt look anything wrong . R u sure there is a problem ? As my pt 1911 is working fine and picture looks the . Because if that is broken so is mine but it's shooting fine .

Lolz! And +1 also!

Course we don't wanna challenge this issue, but I agree with Dr. Sahib here, I myself checked a Taurus 1911 just today, and heck it also looked exactly the same!!!!!

Look guyz and 12G bro, I really hope it's not a repetition of the Baikal MP 153 saga, if you remember the discussion on the loading of the 1.st shell , where a specific "button" was found a bit too late, remember? ha ha ha!

At least it appears, I and Dr. Sahib either have a weak short range sight, or just couldn't find any specific thing missing as such. I really hope so for the guy it belonged to, that nothing is missing as such, since it was a NIB piece, lolz!

Regards.

AK47
30-03-2011, 02:57 AM
Dear brothers, kindly do not mind an elder brother interfering here, but I suggest you guyz to open a separate thread and talk/discuss as much as you like on the evolution of science, latin expressions, etc, and delete/transfer all preceding posts which are not relevant to the very issue being discussed here, and let's proceed on with discussing the 1911 extractor issue once more.

I feel, some of the posts here should be transferred to the "1911 obsolete thread", which would be the right place to discuss it's design/functional evolution or non-evolution since 1911, and once more, +1 to HJ bro for a mature approach, as usual.

@Arsalan.....You're quite anti-Taurus bro, lolz!

Regards.

abbasdurrani
30-03-2011, 03:22 AM
+1 to HJ bro for a mature approach.

Agreed 100%.

Denovo87
30-03-2011, 11:04 AM
I was looking at the pictures and comparing with my PT 1911 , doesnt look anything wrong . R u sure there is a problem ? As my pt 1911 is working fine and picture looks the . Because if that is broken so is mine but it's shooting fine .

Sir ji clamp/claw that catches the rim is broken/chipped off, I can see from the pics. Just see below how an intact extractor should look like and what got chipped off the said 1911's extractor,


http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/denovo87/Extractor.jpg

AK47
30-03-2011, 11:44 AM
Thanks for the articulation above Denovo bro, I also checked this yesterday, but not having the pictures for comparison, couldn't quite understand what the heck was missing in that posted gun, lolz!

The challenging doubt in my mind is not if this replacement would be possible with simple drop in or minor modification, but if it could be done professionally enough as to keep the replacing Colt 1911 extractor working flawlessly in a PT 1911 or not, despite of same design, etc.

Hoping the best for the owner here - and partly - for myself as well, lolz!

Regards.

Denovo87
30-03-2011, 11:54 AM
AK bro, unfortunately there is nothing as "drop in" when it comes to 1911 & its clones, when ever you get a new part to replace you have to make fitting/adjustment ;)

AK47
30-03-2011, 12:02 PM
I know Denovo bro, sadly, that's why I pray that the professional "MISTRY" who'll install it, does it with best perfection, also for future running of the gun, with respect to FTE's/FTS's. I humbly feel the owner in question should have contacted the dealer, I feel some level of prs interaction/relations with him, if any, could/should have lead to something positive, also for the dealers future relationship with the owner here. Especially since it was a NIB items.

Regards.

Starfish
30-03-2011, 12:12 PM
Thank you CD for your time and effort. I do know what a cognitive paradigm is and I just couldnt understand the perspective making it relevant to the subject at hand.

So i guess i did get the gist of it. I appreciate your effort to indulge in social interaction but do consider that much of your efforts might go to waste cos majority would simply not understand :)
Interaction and communication is a dynamic thing for me and the significance and the simplicity varies with the gathering im in.
Forums should be considered the most basic of communication tools and trust me, even the most smart readers have the attention span of a squirrel (cmon, we all have offices, and meetings and there blogs to read :P) because we are scanning or browsing a forum most of the times. Trust me, if readers were paying attention, this thread would not have existed :)

So a heuristic that might help: keep it simple.

After all, the tree fell in vain if no one saw it fall right? :P

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 01:24 AM
^

:)

Well, the problem is this is the way I indulge in a discussion. I don't know of any other way. Maybe its 'cuz I've been academically trained (cursed? lol) to approach a given problem with syntactical precisions and argumentative relevance. If "the unconscious is structured like a language" (Lacan, Jacques. “The Mirror Stage as Formative of the Function of the I as Revealed in Psychoanalytic Experience”. Ecrits: A Selection. Trans. Alan Sheridan. Bristol, Great Britain: Tavistock, 1977. 01-07. Print.) then the kind of person someone is, his language would reflect the intellect and inner patterns of his personality. That cannot be changed. This is the reason, perhaps, I don't have a social circle outside academics and even the one I have is limited. Most people cannot understand what I am sayin lol... and since I am involved in theatrical production most of my time, that requires a level of solitude for the creative process itself is nourished only through loneliness.

However, thats besides the point. The point is the mutual respect. Even if someone cannot understand what I am saying, the respect should be there. For the value I teach my students and have been taught is that free speech is a basic right of every human being and EVERYONE's POV, without discrimination, is as valid as the others. We should not get personal in discussions, should honor differences and should not let our egos get involved in the process. It is the humane way, it is the professional and mature way, and it is THE ONLY way. Free speech should not become hate speech and should reflect mutual respect for each other's personalities and selves.

Coming to the point though... yes, the extractor on the gun is broken and it needs replacement. That has been established well by the senior members, however, it was a bit evident from the pics and the way the gun was handled (racked and fired, and then got jammed... on a 1911 it means either the magazine is faulty, or the extractor is broke) right from the beginning. Hopefully the esteemed owner can find a gunsmith and replacement parts to get hat fixed. My best wishes :)

The hiccup could maybe avoided in future using only expensive foreign made FMJs only. Most of these problems occur (as it is common knowledge amongst 1911 users) by using faulty ammo. However, if the barrel bushing is adjusted and the extracter tweaked, it can also feed low quality ammo well, and also the JHPs (HPs are still a no no).

Thankyou starfish brother for your time. I'll definitely be restricted in my discussions and indulgence on the forums hereon, keeping ur advice in mind.

Regards.

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 01:28 AM
Try googling these... as I did with your signatures Starfish bro ;)

:) You googled Sratfish bro's sigs? :) So did u like the last argument of King Luis XIV? :)

Denovo87
31-03-2011, 01:34 AM
CD bro, as far as the ammo is concerned most of us have only foreign made available. Regarding the barrel bushing adjustment and extractor tweak; can you please explain HOW TO part of it? but in very simple English please ;) many members like me are very weak hearted & on medication ;)

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 02:36 AM
CD bro, as far as the ammo is concerned most of us have only foreign made available. Regarding the barrel bushing adjustment and extractor tweak; can you please explain HOW TO part of it? but in very simple English please ;) many members like me are very weak hearted & on medication ;)

First of all Denovo Bro, lol at your heart condition :) Point well taken ;)

The barrel bushing should be a tight fit and should resist movement by hand, as is said by Kuhnausen in his great Shop Manual. The tighter and more accurate the bushing is, the better the barrel would fit the slide:

"If properly sized, a tightened accuracy bushing should fit into its' individual slide to a light, or moderate drag fit. Generally, these bushings can not be turned with fingers, particularly when the slide is closed and the barrel is in the locked position."

It is a pre-series 70 feature that comes in many contemporary 1911s as an added feature. PT-1911 has an accuracy bushing installed by default. If not so, you will need a gun smith with proper tools to tweak it, and adjust it, so it properly fits.

Also, please note that the accuracy bushing can only increase the reliability if the feed ramp and the barrel ramp are in perfect position, and the barrel ramp doesnt overhang. If there's an inconsistency there, no matter what other tweaks you do, your gun would not feed reliably. But this is a rare problem in 1911s and MOST recently built 1911s do not have a problem in this area. This is the reason I didnt mention it in the post you referred to. So generally only fitting the barrel bushing better, the feeding problems can be corrected because the barrel would sit better in the slide after a discharge and the next bullet can be then chambered without any problems.

The extractor should have enough tension (between half a pound to a pound and a half) to push the spent cartridge up in the place. You can judge that by basic disassembly, and then without the slide stripped pushing the cartridge in. You can see if when you push the cartridge in if the extractor moves enough to the right (15 to 20 thousands of an inch). And as you push the bullet into the position, as it passes the center of the extractor, it should move a bit back (only a couple of thousands of an inch) to ensure that the cartridge does not come back down. If you don't have that amount of tension, the problems, similar to the reported one in this thread, in extraction would occur. You can correct this very easily by inserting the extractor halfway into the slide and bending it a little to create the right amount of tension. (obviously you will have to be careful to not to bend it too much though).

Also, another common problem is loose breach. It can cause grave damage if not checked and remedied properly before extended usage of the gun. Fortunately it is rare in quality 1911s recently manufactured too and is very easy to check. With a 1911 disassembled, put the barrel in the slide, lock it by pullin it back and pushing it up, put the barrel bushing in and then push n pull the slide back and forth to see if you have any 'play'. Any motion while the barrel is in locked position is simply devastating cuz it creates dangerous gap between the surfaces of the slide and the barrel in the locking system area and your slide and barrel can both be destroyed easily while firing which can EVEN cause death to the shooter. So please be very careful about this one especially cuz many of the 1911 users don't know anything about this problem. But like I said, the saving grace is that this is an EXTREMELY rare problem in 1911s produced after the 80s, and can easily be checked. PT-1911 rarely has this kinda problem.

1911 design is not perfect by any means. However, the thing I like about it that if there is ANY, and I mean ANY problem, it can be taken care of. It is like Harley Davidson vs Ducati (and I have had my time with both of the bikes) where you can customize and correct any problems in HD but not so much so with a Ducati and most of the time it needs replacement of parts or even a complete factory overhaul if something malfunctions. I have disassembled a Glock many times and I can see in its design there is absolutely no room for customization or 'correction'. That is the reason why my 'homies' were running up and down the street to the Glock dealer back in the good old days to get their guns replaced every time one of these went boom on them. lol... never seen a 'true' 1911 user going 'oh... never thought this could happen' with his 1911. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Hope this helps with your 'heart condition' brother. lolx2 ;)

Best Regards,
CD.

P.S.: +1 for the ammo. However, I have seen some of the people in villages acquiring cheap ammo from darra. I don't know if those forty-fives were also foreign and they got them for a bargain price or not. But I suspected these were locally manufactured or 'refilled'. :)

HasanJamshad
31-03-2011, 10:01 AM
Brother CD wrote
then the kind of person someone is, his language would reflect the intellect and inner patterns of his personality. That cannot be changed.

This just reminded me a long time favorite of mine "My Fair Lady".

Starfish
31-03-2011, 10:06 AM
Brother CD wrote

This just reminded me an old time favorite of mine "My Fair Lady".

Agreed :)
CD Sir, For me (and as suggested by empirical evidence) all academics are only as useful as much implemented / applied in your life. This belief is a by product of some thing I extracted out of existentialism , that without appealing to a common man, your academics are restricted to your lounge chair and your cigar :)

But you sir, sit on the highest chair of implementation of your knowledge. Teaching is the most noblest and the most respected thing one can do in his life.
Much respect.

AK47
31-03-2011, 01:35 PM
Ok guyz, I feel you should be done up with the linguistic wrestling above buy now, so let me kindly bring the Taurus 1911 extractor back on track here, with following observations/findings/research:

1) We have in Lahore the 1911 gunsmiths, who can do the extractor change over an hour or so at a marginal cost. In fact, we have 2, as per my derived info.

2) Extractors are available of other makes even in Lahore, though perhaps with a couple of days delay.

3) Solution to the problem, whenever and if ever it appears, is installing a better make extractor, and I was even offered one of Wilson Combat by a dear friend last night. A bit of modification may be required however, yet the work and they work fine.

4) Out of several hundred pieces sold out of the Taurus 1911, over the past couple of years, only 2-3 have been reported back of such issues, and the importer/dealer even offered all his assistance to the customers for the correction/replacement.

5) Abbas Sb is said to have a +2000 rounds history with the Taurus 1911 and has not observed any issues as such, ever. Nor has Starfish bro, Coolbox 18, in fact, the reported case stands out singular on PG so far.

6) The problem is an inherent 1911 extractor issue, not Taurus specific as such, yet if the problem ever occurs, replacing with a better make is for sure suggested, for the better satisfaction/removal of doubts.

7) In the event of serious SD situation failure, and following "WARSAN" arrangements of all necessities, etc, God forbid it, more than the gun or the extractor itself, it's the destiny of the carrier and assailant that defines the outcome, carrying a 1911 is for sure no "life guarantee" as such, lolz!

Bottom-line:

" The Tale of The Legend " continues to thrive and into the next century as well. Lolz!

In a solidly constructed house, the bulbs need replacements now and then, if ever, yet a burnt out bulb doesn't bring the house down!

The 1911 design is the only handgun in caliber .45 that was made up from the ammo calibre itself.

Just reserved a piece of the latest arrival Taurus 1911, Matte finish SS, @80K's, Pakguns price, market price has appreciated to 85K's. Only 5 pieces left of latest consignment, so hurry up guyz! Lolz!

PS! My dear and MISTRY friend in SLK has promised me some "Willy's" talk and gup-shup, whenever required, if required, so joining the club now, lolz!

Regards.

mhrehman
31-03-2011, 02:43 PM
Ak bro a very wise choice indeed. and I fully agree with your observations above. I own the PT1911, Para 14.5 Limited, and the Springfield Armory TRP, in the 1911 design, never had a problem with any of them. As far as the particular problem goes I have seen it in HKs Sigs and some other high end handguns also, sometimes an odd piece shows up here and there. Not a big issue to be worried about, so enjoy your 1911s like most of us do :)

Starfish
31-03-2011, 04:32 PM
AK Sir: A friend called to ask me about this thread the day it was created. He wanted to buy a 1911. I ll tell you what I told him.

Me, Abbas Sb, Denovo Sb, CoolBox Sb, Dr Zakir sb, AND a couple of more pakgunners have taurus 1911s and have fired many many rounds with it without any extractor issue.
Now its up to you: be the kind of guy who would wear a kevlar helmet 24/7 believing that frozen stuff can fall out of an airplane and kill him (cos he read it online and he swears it happened to a friend) or just be the guy who uses common sense.
Go buy a 1911. Happy shooting.

And congratulations on your beautiful new piece :)

AK47
31-03-2011, 04:42 PM
Thanks Starfish bro, my luck today says I am getting the 2011 make, lolz!

Getting the serial number details shortly.

Regards.

Starfish
31-03-2011, 04:50 PM
Now i know that not only did you get 2011, you got Feb 2011. talk about being oven hot :P

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 05:26 PM
Brother CD wrote

This just reminded me a long time favorite of mine "My Fair Lady".

:)

Brother Hasan, there is a HUGE difference between what I said in my post and what the phonetic professor believes in Pygmalion (of which the movie is an adaptation). His arrogance, irascibility and misogynistic (terms you would find on the internet, although I believe his arrogance is so overwhelming that it renders his other 'qualities' almost unnoticeable) personality asserts that the quality of pronunciation, tone and enunciation defines somebody's status and class in society. The play is obviously written in the backdrop of the class struggle (cf. Marx and Angles) and the iconoclast Shaw was, is highly deductive in nature.

I am neither arrogant nor irritated and definitely don't have misogynistic tendencies. What I am saying has nothing do with class representation or being 'better' than others if you have a better vocab. I am simply hinting at the fact that your language will reflect the kind of person you are, for the unconscious itself is structured like a language and hence the rendition of the signified along the vector of the chain of the signifier.

Simply put, the way you have been brought up, the way you have been taught, and the way you are, will reflect in the words that you choose to communicate. Simple as that. It doesn't mean that you are better than others if you are speaking better than others. ;)

Regards,
CD.

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Agreed :)
CD Sir, For me (and as suggested by empirical evidence) all academics are only as useful as much implemented / applied in your life. This belief is a by product of some thing I extracted out of existentialism , that without appealing to a common man, your academics are restricted to your lounge chair and your cigar :)

But you sir, sit on the highest chair of implementation of your knowledge. Teaching is the most noblest and the most respected thing one can do in his life.
Much respect.

Thankyou Starfish brother. The respect is reciprocated.

About appealing to the common man, you must have heard about this couplet:

Khasan di gall aman aggay te naen munasib kerni
Mithi kheer paka Muhammad Bakhsha kutyan aggay terni

And by the way Starfish Bhai, there is a difference between academics and philosophy. Existentialism is a philosophy and is by no means restricted to academia alone. The only problem is, how many of us have even tried reading "being and nothingness"? You can only understand what you TRY to. If a common man has no time to try and invest in understanding of a certain philosophy, who is to blame? Some branches of knowledge are always gonna remain higher in their intellectual worth than others. Take for example how many of us even invest in learning the Koran? Just a thought ;)

Just sharing my pov...

Thank you for your post.

Warm Regards,
CD.

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Ok guyz, I feel you should be done up with the linguistic wrestling above buy now, so let me kindly bring the Taurus 1911 extractor back on track here, with following observations/findings/research:

1) We have in Lahore the 1911 gunsmiths, who can do the extractor change over an hour or so at a marginal cost. In fact, we have 2, as per my derived info.

2) Extractors are available of other makes even in Lahore, though perhaps with a couple of days delay.

3) Solution to the problem, whenever and if ever it appears, is installing a better make extractor, and I was even offered one of Wilson Combat by a dear friend last night. A bit of modification may be required however, yet the work and they work fine.

4) Out of several hundred pieces sold out of the Taurus 1911, over the past couple of years, only 2-3 have been reported back of such issues, and the importer/dealer even offered all his assistance to the customers for the correction/replacement.

5) Abbas Sb is said to have a +2000 rounds history with the Taurus 1911 and has not observed any issues as such, ever. Nor has Starfish bro, Coolbox 18, in fact, the reported case stands out singular on PG so far.

6) The problem is an inherent 1911 extractor issue, not Taurus specific as such, yet if the problem ever occurs, replacing with a better make is for sure suggested, for the better satisfaction/removal of doubts.

7) In the event of serious SD situation failure, and following "WARSAN" arrangements of all necessities, etc, God forbid it, more than the gun or the extractor itself, it's the destiny of the carrier and assailant that defines the outcome, carrying a 1911 is for sure no "life guarantee" as such, lolz!

Bottom-line:

" The Tale of The Legend " continues to thrive and into the next century as well. Lolz!

In a solidly constructed house, the bulbs need replacements now and then, if ever, yet a burnt out bulb doesn't bring the house down!

The 1911 design is the only handgun in caliber .45 that was made up from the ammo calibre itself.

Just reserved a piece of the latest arrival Taurus 1911, Matte finish SS, @80K's, Pakguns price, market price has appreciated to 85K's. Only 5 pieces left of latest consignment, so hurry up guyz! Lolz!

PS! My dear and MISTRY friend in SLK has promised me some "Willy's" talk and gup-shup, whenever required, if required, so joining the club now, lolz!

Regards.

Thank you AK Bhai for keeping us on the course. I appreciate that. And have always tried to keep the relevance ;)

And thank you for your informative post. Would it be too much to ask that those gunsmiths be disclosed with their contact detail? So we can all benefit from them?

Regards,

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 05:38 PM
Thanks Starfish bro, my luck today says I am getting the 2011 make, lolz!

Getting the serial number details shortly.

Regards.

Warm congrats brother. Matte finish looks great. :)

Was just wondering, all of you guys are telling that PT-1911 is worth 80k or so... i got mine from Hira which is an SS AR version and the guy was swearing that 90k was a price without any margin. I didnt have much time to argue/bargain with him so i bought the gun. Did i pay too much? Senior members, plz comment....

Regards,

Asiftt
31-03-2011, 06:18 PM
Warm congrats brother. Matte finish looks great. :)

Was just wondering, all of you guys are telling that PT-1911 is worth 80k or so... i got mine from Hira which is an SS AR version and the guy was swearing that 90k was a price without any margin. I didnt have much time to argue/bargain with him so i bought the gun. Did i pay too much? Senior members, plz comment....

Regards,

Dear 90 K for a 550US $ gun + all customs and imports, you got your self a deal. So now its your turn to post some pictures and range reviews..... thanks

cyanide.dipped
31-03-2011, 06:36 PM
Dear 90 K for a 550US $ gun + all customs and imports, you got your self a deal. So now its your turn to post some pictures and range reviews..... thanks

Thank you Asifft brother. I think the SS AR model is for 690$ though... so I got myself an even better deal :-D :)

I have posted a review as an article here: http://www.pakguns.com/content.php?236-Taurus-PT-1911

I don't know if that'd be published or what is the modus operandi for it to be featured as an article on the site. A detailed range review will be posted once I have my summer holidays inshaAllah.

Regards,
CD.

Denovo87
31-03-2011, 08:31 PM
Thank you Asifft brother. I think the SS AR model is for 690$ though... so I got myself an even better deal :-D :)

I have posted a review as an article here: http://www.pakguns.com/content.php?236-Taurus-PT-1911

I don't know if that'd be published or what is the modus operandi for it to be featured as an article on the site. A detailed range review will be posted once I have my summer holidays inshaAllah.

Regards,
CD.

You posted that review on such a higher place that even mods feel their wings burning going there ;) tried to open the link but its so sacred I have no permission to.

I thought its your English only but now I came to realise you deal everything this way ;)

HasanJamshad
31-03-2011, 09:15 PM
About appealing to the common man, you must have heard about this couplet:

Khasan di gall aman aggay te naen munasib kerni
Mithi kheer paka Muhammad Bakhsha kutyan aggay terni


Very right, but i have never found myself comfortable with the selection of words by Mian Muhammad Baksh sahib on this and few more by him:
1- Nichan di ashnai kolon fiaz kisay na paya..........
2- Dhi choray di sayed mangay...............
Although, Saifal Maluk is full of wisdom otherwise. Shakespare was much more eloquent on this:Caviar to common.

Language certainly is very important thing but character should be dealt seperatly i beleive, as Brutus had a great command on emotions through language but.....
I am writing these few lines just as a token of my feelings on the subject. I really loved reading your posts. Hope i didn't ruind the thread with this post.

cyanide.dipped
01-04-2011, 04:29 PM
You posted that review on such a higher place that even mods feel their wings burning going there ;) tried to open the link but its so sacred I have no permission to.

I thought its your English only but now I came to realise you deal everything this way ;)

I wasnt "aiming high" when I submitted the article. :)

Ah nevermind, I'll write another one and post in a thread Denovo Bhai. ;)

:rockon:

Denovo87
01-04-2011, 04:40 PM
I wasnt "aiming high" when I submitted the article. :)

Ah nevermind, I'll write another one and post in a thread Denovo Bhai. ;)

:rockon:

Waiting for that bro .....

cyanide.dipped
01-04-2011, 04:40 PM
Very right, but i have never found myself comfortable with the selection of words by Mian Muhammad Baksh sahib on this and few more by him:
1- Nichan di ashnai kolon fiaz kisay na paya..........
2- Dhi choray di sayed mangay...............
Although, Saifal Maluk is full of wisdom otherwise. Shakespare was much more eloquent on this:Caviar to common.

Language certainly is very important thing but character should be dealt seperatly i beleive, as Brutus had a great command on emotions through language but.....
I am writing these few lines just as a token of my feelings on the subject. I really loved reading your posts. Hope i didn't ruind the thread with this post.

Thank you dear brother for enjoying reading my posts :) and thank you for your time ;)

About the other discussion, perhaps we can get together on a cup of coffee sometimes and talk psychology and literature. Its what I do: literature ;)

BTW, about Brutus, perhaps you wanted to suggest that his language APPEALS to the emotions? His is treachery driven by a false sense of honor. Thats a completely separate plane of unconscious we are talking about. However, being in the same vein, his language none the less does reflect his intellect and personality. The syntactical patterns Shakespeare uses for Brutus' character, suggest conspiracy in eloquence at many levels. Harold Bloom, in his research work "Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human" suggests something along these lines as well.

The beauty is to note the hard work and research that went into the creation of Brutus' character. His eloquence in the use of the metaphor and his dexterity with the language does reflect the refinements in his characters and his brought up in terms of scholarship. How he puts these to use, is another matter altogether. His false sense of honor, the defining factor behind his betrayal, is yet another thing that can be looked upon from many angles. You cannot judge his character by the mere standard of a murder, neither the character of Iago, for that matter, for his betrayal alone. The rabbit hole goes much deeper. The "Edgar I nothing am" of Edgar and the "I am but mad north north west" of Hamlet would suggest some pointer in the direction to begin with.

Sorry for the momentary displacement of the discourse from the cognitive perspective at hand :)

I enjoy your input a lot Hasan Bhai. It is food for thought and very refreshing ;)

Regards,
CD.

cyanide.dipped
01-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Waiting for that bro .....

Me too ;)

btw, my post about the barrel bushing and the extractor, was it any help? As i reckon, you are pretty knowledgeable on these grounds too. If there was anything missing or wrong in my post please point out and correct. I shall be very thankful :)

Denovo87
01-04-2011, 04:58 PM
Thank you dear brother for enjoying reading my posts :) and thank you for your time ;)

About the other discussion, perhaps we can get together on a cup of coffee sometimes and talk psychology and literature. Its what I do: literature ;)

BTW, about Brutus, perhaps you wanted to suggest that his language APPEALS to the emotions? His is treachery driven by a false sense of honor. Thats a completely separate plane of unconscious we are talking about. However, being in the same vein, his language none the less does reflect his intellect and personality. The syntactical patterns Shakespeare uses for Brutus' character, suggest conspiracy in eloquence at many levels. Harold Bloom, in his research work "Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human" suggests something along these lines as well.

The beauty is to note the hard work and research that went into the creation of Brutus' character. His eloquence in the use of the metaphor and his dexterity with the language does reflect the refinements in his characters and his brought up in terms of scholarship. How he puts these to use, is another matter altogether. His false sense of honor, the defining factor behind his betrayal, is yet another thing that can be looked upon from many angles. You cannot judge his character by the mere standard of a murder, neither the character of Iago, for that matter, for his betrayal alone. The rabbit hole goes much deeper. The "Edgar I nothing am" of Edgar and the "I am but mad north north west" of Hamlet would suggest some pointer in the direction to begin with.

Sorry for the momentary displacement of the discourse from the cognitive perspective at hand :)

I enjoy your input a lot Hasan Bhai. It is food for thought and very refreshing ;)

Regards,
CD.

Thanks CD bro, reading above was very helpful determining the causes of extractor breakage in 1911 ;)

Honestly speaking if it was written in Punjabi or Urdu I would have bombarded with member's reporting OFF TOPIC posts but hats off to ANGRAIZ AAQA's who made us so flexible digesting everything ENGLISH without complaining the taste :frown:

Denovo87
01-04-2011, 05:00 PM
Me too ;)

btw, my post about the barrel bushing and the extractor, was it any help? As i reckon, you are pretty knowledgeable on these grounds too. If there was anything missing or wrong in my post please point out and correct. I shall be very thankful :)

Yes it indeed was, thanks. and you shortly be seeing upgrades to my PT1911... just waiting stuff to land.

coolbox18
01-04-2011, 05:48 PM
That is the reason why my 'homies' were running up and down the street to the Glock dealer back in the good old days to get their guns replaced every time one of these went boom on them. lol... never seen a 'true' 1911 user going 'oh... never thought this could happen' with his 1911. HAHAHAHAHAHA



While most of the language in this thread was more 'Linguish' than 'English', of what I was able to comprehend, enjoyed this part in particular :D

A happy owner of pt1911 :)

AK47
01-04-2011, 05:53 PM
Yes it indeed was, thanks. and you shortly be seeing upgrades to my PT1191... just waiting stuff to land.

I am sure, you'll make it an 1191 now and a greater legend even, lolzzzzzzzzz!

Regards.

cyanide.dipped
01-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Yes it indeed was, thanks. and you shortly be seeing upgrades to my PT1191... just waiting stuff to land.

awaiting anxiously brother :)

and lol at the 1191 ;) hahahahahhahahaha... you made it even older than it really is... and the irony is, this thread was about the design being old in the first place.... :) :) :)

Abbas
02-04-2011, 02:17 PM
Wow, I could not believe some of the Taurus 1911 bashing in this thread. I have one for quite a while now and regard it as the absolute best value for money .45 handgun in Pakistan.

The Taurus in particular is a classic and the future all rolled into one handgun. It is the perfect all rounder, extremely reliable for carry, excellent power, fantastic (match grade) trigger, good build quality and decently priced. I would buy one again without thought given the opportunity.

As for the extractor broke issue, handgun = trash issues. That's amusing, I have it on good authority that out of 1000 Taurus 1911 handguns less than 10 have extractor problems. A 1 % extractor failure rate is pretty good.

I was speaking to Ak47 the other day and told him that I regard the extractor and the slide release for any pistol the same as I do for oil and filter for my car. They spoil after use ( 3500 kms or rounds ;) ) and need to be replaced.

Skeeter60
02-04-2011, 03:10 PM
CYANIDE.DIPPED and 12GUAGE.
Brothers how about discussing handguns? For example John M Browning's 1911?

safeershah
04-04-2011, 03:46 PM
guys , let me know if you are intrested to upgrade your 1911 i have few parts i.e. matchgrade barrels, grips, triggers, hammers etc.

AK47
04-04-2011, 04:45 PM
guys , let me know if you are intrested to upgrade your 1911 i have few parts i.e. matchgrade barrels, grips, triggers, hammers etc.

Lolz! Seems like you're setting up the long awaited and talked about "Willy's Workshop", ha ha ha!

Look, you can be sure there'll be plenty of "FRIENDS" for you here, now let's know of the spare parts you're offering, I feel like standing at "Sultan's Kuu" (Kabuli auto spare parts venue in Pindi)) over here, ha ha ha!

Ok, fun aside, which makes these things are, and share something abt the grips, though mine have landed here.

Regards.

mhrehman
04-04-2011, 05:13 PM
Ak bro you will be surprised at the goodies that Safeer bro has at his disposal, top notch stuff.

AK47
04-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Ak bro you will be surprised at the goodies that Safeer bro has at his disposal, top notch stuff.

Yeah bro, thanks, gonna be interesting to watch his stuff, but at the same times, it seems, with this recent acquisition, that I'm done up with more in handguns, ha ha ha!

Regards.

Trigger_happy78
04-04-2011, 07:32 PM
Opinion please. Is a GSG .22 cal 1911 style worth buying for 50k?

Denovo87
04-04-2011, 07:39 PM
Opinion please. Is a GSG .22 cal 1911 style worth buying for 50k?

NOT at ALL .....

acidzero8
04-04-2011, 09:55 PM
Salam,

Boss,
Please try norinco NP44 1911 style inshallah there won't be any problems.
it's not as pretty as tarus 1911 but it will get the job done easy.

Trigger_happy78
04-04-2011, 11:03 PM
Thanks for the reply acidzero8. But bro im looking to buy a .22 cal pistol not a .45

Trigger_happy78
04-04-2011, 11:04 PM
Thanks denovo87 bhai.

Ilyas
04-04-2011, 11:31 PM
guys , let me know if you are intrested to upgrade your 1911 i have few parts i.e. matchgrade barrels, grips, triggers, hammers etc.

Salams Bro! wanted to learn a little more about the possibilities. Perhaps discussing it over the phone would more appropriate. Will you plz leave me your contact no at laacho@hotmail.com?
Regards!

safeershah
05-04-2011, 12:24 PM
AK47 , now I am seriously thinking to setup the long awaited willy workshop , customization and other gunsmith service will be provided plus parts can be available on booking and above all free service to 12G for his 1911 lolzzz, I am travelling these days inshallah next week will upload the pics

mrehman, thanks for the positive feedback you will get the discount voucher when the willy workshop will be open lolzzz

Ilyas welcome back, will posted pics and also send to you via email

AK47
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Thanks brother Safeershah, looking forward to seeing the 1.st WILLY rolling out of your workshop, lolz! Just make sure, the parts are fully compatible with the Taurus 1911, since that will be your most common visitor, lolz!

Regards.

safeershah
05-04-2011, 05:02 PM
AK47 , i hope all parts will be fully compatible otherwise i can be the test target lolzzz, for difficult customers brother CD will be the source of contact as he is die hard fan of 1911 and after trying to understand his 2 page reply the customer will surrender :) CD bro no offense :) you will get some goodies too lolz

Denovo87
05-04-2011, 08:13 PM
Thanks brother Safeershah, looking forward to seeing the 1.st WILLY rolling out of your workshop, lolz! Just make sure, the parts are fully compatible with the Taurus 1911, since that will be your most common visitor, lolz!

Regards.

AK bro, all the 1911's are quite similar and parts are 100% compatible BUT there is nothing DROP IN unfortunately. You either will have to master yourself or hire a gunsmith to do the part replacements. And this attribute of the 1911 is the one I love most, it makes you running left & right, up & down to find, acquire & fit the things to it.
For last 10 days I am facing terrible itch to replace/upgrade my pt1911 and you know what? most of my net time is spent on, finding parts & tools, reading gunsmithing, watching/downloading gunsmith videos, tracking my packages, looking for order status at brownells and then putting more stuff in wish list (at brownells of course) ;)

If you develop a 1911 itch you can cure it by getting one but once you develop an itch to upgrade it; you are a gone, it will get worst once you started scratching it, no medicine will work a permanent cure... so be very very cautious before jumping into it :target:

AK47
05-04-2011, 10:32 PM
Den, I'll most likely do with the customs bro, else than cosmetic changes. Wanna remain "immune" here to all those "itches", plenty of other things to keep mind busy with, lolz! Oh yeah, a "Tango" style trigger would look good, for sure, lolzzzzzzzz!

Regards.

Aquarius
05-04-2011, 10:38 PM
If you develop a 1911 itch you can cure it by getting one but once you develop an itch to upgrade it; you are a gone, it will get worst once you started scratching it, no medicine will work a permanent cure... so be very very cautious before jumping into it :target:

If Den brother can't cure an itch, this means its really uncurable, because as far as I know & remember he has remedy for every itch, but here he's quite hopeless.. Lolzzzzz.

Moeen
07-04-2011, 10:09 AM
Salam All,
Here is the interchangeability aspect video on You Tube regarding the Taurus, its long and boring with some good points.
http://youtu.be/1GlMGVYl4wY

Denovo87
09-04-2011, 02:08 PM
May be its an open secret but let me admit that the pt1911 generated this hot debate was MINE ;) I was so crossed after the incident that had to request 12g bro to help me to UNITE MOTHER n SISTER of PT1911, so he did it very effectively ;)

Now after about 2 weeks of that extractor breakage incident I yesterday received brand new extractor from Brownells, its made by Caspian, it took me just 4-5 minutes to replace broken one with this new extractor.... and after going through all the checks found that Caspian extractor is a perfect drop-in part (for PT1911), didnot have to do any sort of adjustment, just went in and seated like an OEM part.

Went to the range today to test fire the gun, it cycled from 1st round to last with perfect, positive and powerful ejection, lot better than it was ejecting with original extractor.

For members who are thinking to buy an extra ( for replacement or improvement) extractor below is the product code n info that can be bought from www.brownells.com , Stock#=168-000-025, Product: Caspian 1911 Extractor Series 80 (SS).

AK47
09-04-2011, 02:30 PM
May be its an open secret but let me admit that the pt1911 generated this hot debate was MINE ;) I was so crossed after the incident that had to request 12g bro to help me to UNITE MOTHER n SISTER of PT1911, so he did it very effectively ;)

Now after about 2 weeks of that extractor breakage incident I yesterday received brand new extractor from Brownells, its made by Caspian, it took me just 4-5 minutes to replace broken one with this new extractor.... and after going through all the checks found that Caspian extractor is a perfect drop-in part (for PT1911), didnot have to do any sort of adjustment, just went in and seated like an OEM part.

Went to the range today to test fire the gun, it cycled from 1st round to last with perfect, positive and powerful ejection, lot better than it was ejecting with original extractor.

For members who are thinking to buy an extra ( for replacement or improvement) extractor below is the product code n info that can be bought from www.brownells.com , Stock#=168-000-025, Product: Caspian 1911 Extractor Series 80 (SS).

Congrats, my fingers had been crossed as well, yet I as I told you, I was confident it would be able to be dropped in. Great relief! Enjoy!

Now, as regards my second highlighting above, how do you gauge the "improvement" that you mention, as when compared to the OEM? Did you see farther extraction of the shells??

In any case, that was a great "come back" indeed, now enjoy your rejuvenated beauty, and let's see some target charts also.

Regards.

Denovo87
09-04-2011, 02:35 PM
Yes, AK bro, it throw empties lot farther than original and absolutely clear off the shooter which now is an extra trait of my PT1911 ;)

AK47
09-04-2011, 02:54 PM
Yes, AK bro, it throw empties lot farther than original and absolutely clear off the shooter which now is an extra trait of my PT1911 ;)

Hmm! You're already boasting your "Willy", you mean to say that rest of us are kind of "endangered" by empties, lolzzzzzzz!

Great bro, your's is back on the road, now let me just get mine out of the showroom, lolz!

Regards.

Denovo87
09-04-2011, 03:21 PM
Hmm! You're already boasting your "Willy", you mean to say that rest of us are kind of "endangered" by empties, lolzzzzzzz!

Great bro, your's is back on the road, now let me just get mine out of the showroom, lolz!

Regards.

Ak bro, ejection in 1911's sometimes is quite pita issue, it can throw empties from right to shooter's face to any where on his/her arm.
I think we should have a match between a pt1911 race gun and a factory gun once you are done with the budget guns battle ;)

AK47
09-04-2011, 03:45 PM
Ak bro, ejection in 1911's sometimes is quite pita issue, it can throw empties from right to shooter's face to any where on his/her arm.
I think we should have a match between a pt1911 race gun and a factory gun once you are done with the budget guns battle ;)

Lolz! That makes me seriously think of the Wilson Combat extractor I was offered few days back, ha ha ha! Even if minor modification, I've found a "local" mistry, saw him modifying a TT extractor and placing it into it, instantly asked him about his knowledge on 1911's, and he replied: "Just bring anything, 1911 or 1947, doesn't matter, lolzzzzzzz!

Regards.

Denovo87
09-04-2011, 04:11 PM
Lolz! That makes me seriously think of the Wilson Combat extractor I was offered few days back, ha ha ha! Even if minor modification, I've found a "local" mistry, saw him modifying a TT extractor and placing it into it, instantly asked him about his knowledge on 1911's, and he replied: "Just bring anything, 1911 or 1947, doesn't matter, lolzzzzzzz!

Regards.

I will not recomend local homoeopath MISTRY for tuning/fitting CW extractor and that of a 1911 too ;) but I still insist to give CW extractor a try so we can see what a $12 price difference can be translated into practicality.

AK47
09-04-2011, 04:16 PM
Oh sure, was merely joking, course the 1911 needs special hands and "Homeopaths", lolz!

Anyhow, the main thing is, your replacement was a relief to this thread and 1911 owners in general, in short you could say, you replaced the 80W light bulb with 100W Halogen, lolz! We'll compare the "Wattage", Inshallah.

Regards.

coolbox18
09-04-2011, 06:03 PM
Congrats Denovo sb on the upgrade. Waiting for your next 'race' results.

Aquarius
10-04-2011, 09:01 PM
So that was Den's bro 1911.. humm.
Anyhow what a relieved man Den bro would be now after changing that extractor.

Glockcohlic
10-04-2011, 09:37 PM
AoA Everybody

No problem, I thought the extractor must have slipped. I took the fired case out, racked the slide again, chambered the next round, bang! and again same problem, the slide locked back and the fired case is still in the chamber, just like the last time.



I fail to understand how can a gun get's slide lock over FTE while still there are rounds in the magazine. Upon FTE, mostly the slide fails to push the new round in chamber as the spent cartridge stuck in the chamber prevents the new round to battery properly and in this process the new round gets jammed in the slide. This prevents the slide to properly seat back and leaving slide/breach area bit open with the stuch round in the breach area. Though this can happen upon last round being fired but as per you and the pics this was not the case.

As per your saying this happened twice, if it had happend that way then not only the extractor is faulty but it seems the slide lock also had problem. BUT BUT "BUT" This whole scenario seems fishy..... :) :) :)

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/Photo867.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af103/12gauge-pakguns/Photo868.jpg

Aquarius
10-04-2011, 09:46 PM
@Glockcohlic.. yes you are absolutely right but may be it was manipulated by the firer to show us the details.

Denovo87
10-04-2011, 09:56 PM
I fail to understand how can a gun get's slide lock over FTE while still there are rounds in the magazine. Upon FTE, mostly the slide fails to push the new round in chamber as the spent cartridge stuck in the chamber prevents the new round to battery properly and in this process the new round gets jammed in the slide. This prevents the slide to properly seat back and leaving slide/breach area bit open with the stuch round in the breach area. Though this can happen upon last round being fired but as per you and the pics this was not the case.

As per your saying this happened twice, if it had happend that way then not only the extractor is faulty but it seems the slide lock also had problem. BUT BUT "BUT" This whole scenario seems fishy..... :) :) :)

Glockcohlic bro, where have you been? tried your phone but one constantly off and other just kept on transmitting a message in a strange language but very sesky & husky voice ;)

Regarding this extractor issue, please read my last revealing post ;) there was nothing fishy, just extractor clamp got chipped off so was unable to extract empty while coming rearward but was trying to push new round from mag while going back to battery, its not the slide that is locked but the new half stripped round is stuck between slide & lower end of chamber blocking the slide completely, just 9mm bullet's length away from chamber.

a55kika
10-04-2011, 10:01 PM
Yo safeer bhai! Why aint you coming to the gym ? o_0
I was planning on going for a shooting session somewhere...Was wondering if you wanted to try out my Saiga-12 :P
Ammunition will be on the house :) Oh and will also be bringing a 9mm.

Glockcohlic
10-04-2011, 10:23 PM
@Aquarius
@Denovo87

Bro. I got some info about this. Was just .... you know what I mean.... :)

@Denovo Bhai,

Gud to hear that the problem is solved and the beast is back on duty. Regarding telephone, as discussed I was back home for few days and then went to Dubai for a week. Now back to my work place.

It was nice talking to you and glad to know you are doing fine.

Dr Zakir
10-04-2011, 10:50 PM
MOEEN will be able to help

Abbas
11-04-2011, 12:46 AM
@Ak Congratulations on the 1911. Awaiting to see dual lasers on that baby ;)

AK47
11-04-2011, 01:31 AM
@Ak Congratulations on the 1911. Awaiting to see dual lasers on that baby ;)

Lolz! Thanks Chief!

Yet the "dual carriage" may not be for this time, perhaps a single lasermax, if found at some stage.

Regards.

Moeen
11-04-2011, 05:24 PM
Salam All,
@AK47 - dual lasers!!! I think we can do more... Brazilian flag, NOS kit, some wings welded on the side of slide to give it downforce, a hooter horn and ofcourse my favorite the ever popular sticker on the back of slide stating name or something like that. :)

AK47
11-04-2011, 05:35 PM
Salam All,
@AK47 - dual lasers!!! I think we can do more... Brazilian flag, NOS kit, some wings welded on the side of slide to give it downforce, a hooter horn and ofcourse my favorite for this part of the world... the ever popular sticker on the back of slide stating name of family or something like that. :)

@Moeen........Lolz on the "back-plate", seems like you've been working on such a "project", ha ha ha!

Well, I'll stick to the simpler outlook for this time around, reason why I left the railed model lying in the shop! A 1911 is a pre-decorated item with all it's "manly" charisma, just a few cosmetic changes and I'm done. Now, let's see what's coming in from our dear friend in SLK!! Lolz!

Regards.

Moeen
11-04-2011, 05:55 PM
Salam All,
@AK47 - Hahahahahaha, bro come to Isb, whats up? Come over for lunch or dinner or get going with the shooting plan.

AK47
11-04-2011, 06:07 PM
Salam All,
@AK47 - Hahahahahaha, bro come to Isb, whats up? Come over for lunch or dinner or get going with the shooting plan.

Thanks bro, appreciated. I think we'll do a combined venture of lunch, shots, bangs and so on! I hope and settle for the event on Sunday, PROVIDED, we get all the guns we need, still a couple missing, if you check the thread. Thanks again for the gracious offer, appreciated, shall take you up on it, Inshallah.

Regards.

safeershah
13-04-2011, 12:26 PM
guys awam kay bayhad israar par the long awaited willy shop is here, lolzz, all parts are new except the iron sights, the scratches on few items are because they were stored together ,

http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg
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safeershah
13-04-2011, 12:33 PM
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http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ42QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12080608.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ43QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12080551.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ44QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12080526.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ45QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12080507.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ46QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12082000.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ47QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081922.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ48QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081911.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ49QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081852.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ50QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081817.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ51QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081810.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ52QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081751.jpg
http://s649.photobucket.com/albums/uu218/safeershah/1911%20parts/?action=view&current=2011-04-12081640.jpg#!oZZ53QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs649.ph otobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu218%2Fsafeershah%2F1911 %2520parts%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-12081648.jpg

coolbox18
13-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Safeershah bro, are you in karachi?

AK47
13-04-2011, 12:53 PM
Shah Sahib, now that was a nice show to newer/older "Willy" owners, lolz!

Market section is closed, hence no transactions, but I believe a brief "query" on prices would not be totally out of place with respected mods?

In that case, where does the match grade barrel, and EGW compensator stand, respectively? Thanks for the share. Regards.

Denovo87
13-04-2011, 12:58 PM
Safeershah bro, are you in karachi?


Safeershah bro consider half of the stuff sold ;)

Denovo87
13-04-2011, 12:59 PM
Shah Sahib, now that was a nice show to newer/older "Willy" owners, lolz!

Market section is closed, hence no transactions, but I believe a brief "query" on prices would not be totally out of place with respected mods?

In that case, where does the match grade barrel, and EGW compensator stand, respectively? Thanks for the share. Regards.

And here goes rest of the half ;)

AK47
13-04-2011, 02:37 PM
And here goes rest of the half ;)

Don't worry, I'll be bothering your overseas "connection" soon as well, lolz!

Regards.

safeershah
13-04-2011, 03:24 PM
coolbox18, yes I am in Karachi,

AK47 the matchgrade barrel will be around 350 USD and the EGW compensator is 200 USD , as far i remember the barrel was 250 USD plus shipping and the EGW was 150-170 plus shipping. you can check the acutal cost of these item plus shipping on the net

safeershah
13-04-2011, 03:27 PM
I also have some compensators for beretta 92 or Taurus PT92/99 made by beretta need to check them where are they :)

Moeen
13-04-2011, 06:59 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - nice saman bro, I love the magwell housing by wilson as its in two piece configuration and one can at a moments notice have a smaller gun by removing the bottom speed shoot.
I have the Beretta compensator, still need a normal Beretta/Taurus to put it on to try it.

Denovo87
13-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Salam All,
@Safeershah - nice saman bro, I love the magwell housing by wilson as its in two piece configuration and one can at a moments notice have a smaller gun by removing the bottom speed shoot.
I have the Beretta compensator, still need a normal Beretta/Taurus to put it on to try it. The workmanship is AMAZING on it.

Compensator again,even reading these I get my ears red and you know Moin bhai why ;)

Moeen
13-04-2011, 10:06 PM
Salam All,
@Denovo87 - Bhai... Hee hee hee have many surprises yet to come... compensator related.

Dr Zakir
13-04-2011, 11:15 PM
When r we testing

a55kika
14-04-2011, 05:04 PM
Oh bhai when you coming to the gym?
Wanna ask you about the compensator and the m9 barrel

Starfish
14-04-2011, 05:23 PM
Oh bhai when you coming to the gym?

lol. Never knew pakguns had a gym!
lets not share our pumping "iron" huddles. lets stick to pumping "copper jacketed lead" in stead. shall we?

a55kika
14-04-2011, 05:33 PM
@ StarFish LOL
Turns out me Safeer bhai work out in the same gym :)
And one thing you all should know about Safeer bhai is that he doesn't need a gun to kill somebody.He can kill a guy with his bare finger :P

Denovo87
14-04-2011, 07:53 PM
@ StarFish LOL
Turns out me Safeer bhai work out in the same gym :)
And one thing you all should know about Safeer bhai is that he doesn't need a gun to kill somebody.He can kill a guy with his bare finger :P

Or even with his LOOKS ;)

safeershah
15-04-2011, 11:01 AM
Denovo87, I wish I have that kind of looks lolzzzz,
a55kika, will bring the stuff today or tomorrow

a55kika
15-04-2011, 12:27 PM
Thank you man...

a55kika
17-04-2011, 06:28 PM
Awaiting pictures of the compensator :)

Moeen
17-04-2011, 11:53 PM
Salam All,
@a55kika - bro, are you awaiting compensator pics from me or SafeerShah?

safeershah
18-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Moeen, from both of us :)

a55kika
18-04-2011, 01:09 PM
@Moeen bhai
You too got the compensator for beretta? o_0

AK47
18-04-2011, 02:13 PM
@Moeen bhai
You too got the compensator for beretta? o_0

Bro, Moeen (BnS) has got a "compensator" for almost anything "fire-able", ha ha ha!

Regards.

a55kika
18-04-2011, 06:00 PM
LoL thats cool :)

Moeen
18-04-2011, 07:27 PM
Salam All,
@SafeerShah & @a55kika - I already have mine here, Dr Zakir had the pleasure of seeing it, I am awaiting more accessories then I will on my search for a Beretta 92fs to put them on. I am going to post the pic I found on the net.
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h427/pyramids99/sgs14.jpg

@AK47 - Funny, my wife was saying something to that effect regarding myself two days ago.... LOLs.

a55kika
19-04-2011, 12:20 AM
"Iminashi 17" from the movie wanted
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/a/a7/WANAvoy_1.jpg/400px-WANAvoy_1.jpg

Moeen
19-04-2011, 09:17 AM
Salam All,
@a55kika - if this comp was used in the movie wanted which it was... nice movie. Mine is from the movie 'Leon The Professional' 1994 starring Jon Reno, Natalie Portman, and Gary Oldman... see the movie if you haven't. This is what it looks like (image taken from internet)
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h427/pyramids99/sgs11.jpg

safeershah
19-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Moeen, the compensator you have or in the movie The Professional is SGS compensator italian made, nice stuff they are no longer making it, I have one custom made STI compensator, normally STI is making parts for 1911 but on special orders they can make parts for other guns too.

a55kika
19-04-2011, 01:50 PM
@Moen I've seen the movie Leon but I didn't notice this weapon.
IMHO the SGS compensator is an overkill.It makes the beretta look like a toy robocop gun.
This would be more appropriate
http://www.tjscustomgunworks.com/Photos1/BERETTA.jpg

a55kika
19-04-2011, 01:56 PM
@Safeer bhai Indulge yourself :) Safari arms 1911 from the movie "Wanted" Best 1911 ever IMO
http://www.imfdb.org/images/7/7c/Wanted1911.jpg

Moeen
20-04-2011, 12:03 AM
Salam All,
@Safeer Shah - +1, you are very knowledgeable truly. I am familiar with STI, they are good as are their ex SVI. There are many other names out there. I am awaiting my delivery of comp unit for the 1911 which WILL raise some eyebrows. It also incorporates some unique features - not just a barrel with a comp screwed on it. Bro, you need to send me your contact info at paradigms67@hotmail.com

@a55kika - bro you seem to be a movie buff and not one with the understanding of how things work it seems... its ok 'to each their own' I say. Firstly, I tried the comp you think works heavenly, I bought it over five years ago. Not only did it NOT work right due to improper ammo - it required 9mm Major ammo which translated means +p or +p+ but also I had problems with the recoil spring adjustments. Thankfully I managed to find someone in peshawar who thought it looked 'SOOO RADICAL' he had to have it. So I let him be the sucker. The comp you say looks tooo big (I think you need to compare the photos again). Firstly, the comp you are raving about requires a barrel with threading where as this one does NOT - rather its got a slider in the muzzle area. This comp fixes itself via the guide rod the walls on the side are providing the support to the comp/barrel which rides in it. The advantage you have is NO moving weighted part with the barrel, you still get the front end weight, it uses standard ammo, AND best of all can be removed very quickly.
Now on to the Safari arms, I had a similar gun from them during the late 80s called the widow maker and it had a widowmaker logo on the wooden grips. It was a good gun for its time - and its time was the 80s. Ofcourse in the movies they want things to be unique and most who don't know much... well, all they can do is say 'oooohhh' or 'AMAZING!', agreed in/for movies. In real life this gun you have pictured with Angolina has more shashka parts in it... take a look at that fake comp. nothing more than a ring attached to the bushing. Or that ridiculous beavertail, a part meant to raise the grip of 1911 and also avoid hammer bite... well in this case its causing the hand to grip lower on the frame a big no no cause it causes more upward recoil... The front sight is put on wrong angle. As for the tattooing of this gun... I suggest you get in touch with our esteemed Moderators Denovo87 and 12Gauge who I know can set you up with MUCH BETTER gun tattooing.

AK47
20-04-2011, 02:18 AM
Salam All,
@Safeer Shah - +1, you are very knowledgeable truly. I am familiar with STI, they are good as are their ex SVI. There are many other names out there. I am awaiting my delivery of comp unit for the 1911 which WILL raise some eyebrows. It also incorporates some unique features - not just a barrel with a comp screwed on it. Bro, you need to send me your contact info at paradigms67@hotmail.com

@a55kika - bro you seem to be a movie buff and not one with the understanding of how things work it seems... its ok 'to each their own' I say. Firstly, I tried the comp you think works heavenly, I bought it over five years ago. Not only did it NOT work right due to improper ammo - it required 9mm Major ammo which translated means +p or +p+ but also I had problems with the recoil spring adjustments. Thankfully I managed to find someone in peshawar who thought it looked 'SOOO RADICAL' he had to have it. So I let him be the sucker. The comp you say looks tooo big (I think you need to compare the photos again). Firstly, the comp you are raving about requires a barrel with threading where as this one does NOT - rather its got a slider in the muzzle area. This comp fixes itself via the guide rod the walls on the side are providing the support to the comp/barrel which rides in it. The advantage you have is NO moving weighted part with the barrel, you still get the front end weight, it uses standard ammo, AND best of all can be removed very quickly.
Now on to the Safari arms, I had a similar gun from them during the late 80s called the widow maker and it had a widowmaker logo on the wooden grips. It was a good gun for its time - and its time was the 80s. Ofcourse in the movies they want things to be unique and most who don't know much... well, all they can do is say 'oooohhh' or 'AMAZING!', agreed in/for movies. In real life this gun you have pictured with Angolina has more shashka parts in it... take a look at that fake comp. nothing more than a ring attached to the bushing. Or that ridiculous beavertail, a part meant to raise the grip of 1911 and also avoid hammer bite... well in this case its causing the hand to grip lower on the frame a big no no cause it causes more upward recoil... The front sight is put on wrong angle. As for the tattooing of this gun... I suggest you get in touch with our esteemed Moderators Denovo87 and 12Gauge who I know can set you up with MUCH BETTER gun tattooing.

Agreed on all above, and let me just add here, whatever Moeen bro shares with us here on the forum, trust me, it's only 4 % of his overall knowledge, rest you'll have to personally meet him up for, +1!

Regards.

Moeen
20-04-2011, 09:05 AM
Salam All,
@Skeeter60 & Son - guests
@Dr Zakir - resident
@AK47 - guest
@12Gauge - resident
@Abbas
@Denovo87
Firstly, Thanks to our guests for remembering us during their visit to Isb. We really enjoyed your company and hope that you reached home safely by night. AK47, your location being close to Isb - you should visit more often. 12Gauge bhai, always a pleasure though you left early. Dr Zakir sorry we dragged you away from work; but this company would not have been complete without your presence. Abbas and Denovo bhai, we all agreed that you guys should have also been here.

AK47
20-04-2011, 10:01 AM
Salam All,
@Skeeter60 & Son - guests
@Dr Zakir - resident
@AK47 - guest
@12Gauge - resident
@Abbas
@Denovo87
Firstly, Thanks to our guests for remembering us during their visit to Isb. We really enjoyed your company and hope that you reached home safely by night. AK47, your location being close to Isb - you should visit more often. 12Gauge bhai, always a pleasure though you left early. Dr Zakir sorry we dragged you away from work; but this company would not have been complete without your presence. Abbas and Denovo bhai, we all agreed that you guys should have also been here.

Moeen bro, you're welcome Sir, always a pleasure being with you and yes special thanks to Skeeter Sb who's magnificent presence and remembrance of us was an honor - beyond expression - to salute and grace in ISB. Really enjoyed lovely 5-6 hours together with Dr. Zakir Sb, 12G bro and Junior Skeeter bro also, missing out with great regrets Denovo bro, Chief and mhrehman bro.

Btw, on a lighter note, and laughing greatly with Denovo bro over the phone later, I had to confess to him, that we DID indeed, nearly , manage some "blueprints" for a couple of more guns to be launched soon! May have completed the "work", had he been around as well, ha ha ha ha ha!

Regards.

safeershah
20-04-2011, 01:34 PM
Moeen Bhai, I sent you my contact info , I am looking for few these SGS compensator let me know if somebody have it here and do you have compensator for your 1911 9mm ?

A55kika, I will prefer the shooter instead of that 1911 :) you need to learn the resident experts like moeen and others, guns basic role is to shoot not to enter in a beauty contest , many ugly looking compensator and guns perfrom much better than some good looking exotic guns :)

safeershah
20-04-2011, 02:00 PM
denov87 are you using same id on yahoo address ? I think you are in my friendlist on yahoo I mean long before that Pakgun meeting

Denovo87
20-04-2011, 02:09 PM
denov87 are you using same id on yahoo address ? I think you are in my friendlist on yahoo I mean long before that Pakgun meeting

Yes bro I have same id at Yahoo (and many other places ;) ), nice to hear that I am your friend long before pakguns acquaintance, what is your id at yahoo?

safeershah
20-04-2011, 03:10 PM
safeershah , same on hot mail and yahoo

Moeen
20-04-2011, 03:31 PM
Salam All,
@AK47 - +1.

@Safeer Shah - Email sent to you. Salam, I have added you in Facebook as well.

The Beretta comp. was a hard find, I WILL order more and it costs quite high (more than other comps which generally sell for about 50-200usd), I want to test this one first although I have heard and read that quote "...it turns the Berettas/Tauruses into Tack Drivers! The downside is the unit's high price and availability....", Dr Zakir has been bugging me to bring it out to try on the Taurus so I guess I will test it this Saturday. As for the 1911 comp., I have one for the Glock 34, I tuned it to where it fires reliably; however, I do have friends whose comp combo do not work properly. The 1911 comp. I am getting is a very nice unit. Currently I don't have one for the 1911, the EGW people are VERY good at what they do, not many here know about them, they have been around for quite a while.

safeershah
20-04-2011, 04:27 PM
moeen, you got quite a collection of compensators, I think some companies are making sgs style compensators as they are out of production and because of latest CNC technology these new compensators will perform better than the original SGS, I have one slide and compensator from EGW and now I am thinking to get one norc 44 to put all the matchgrade stuff in it to check how it will perform, normally people dont like norc 44 but i think in that price range this is the only 1911 style double stack, I heard norc repo is quite good , need to check it before putting the matchgrade barrel and EGW slide + compensator and other stuff

a55kika
20-04-2011, 05:44 PM
@Moen bhai
I give preference more to the looks of the gun rather than its performance.That's just me.I don't get to shoot around much.I just like looking at my guns.I am also aware of the fact that some compensators turn out to be ineffective rather than effective.I understand the risks.Also,I never said that the guns are 100% efficient or of authentic design.Those were just ideas.You got carried away complaining about the design and what not.Your knowledge of guns is far superior.I do not doubt that.And I don't want you take any offense in whatever I said/posted.
@Safeer
I thought you were getting the 999 o_0.I see you got a lot going through your mind.But I think you should go for the Double stacker 1911.Your massive hands will make a perfect fit ;)

coolbox18
20-04-2011, 06:34 PM
I am thinking to get one norc 44 to put all the matchgrade stuff in it to check how it will perform, normally people dont like norc 44 but i think in that price range this is the only 1911 style double stack, I heard norc repo is quite good , need to check it before putting the matchgrade barrel and EGW slide + compensator and other stuff

Nice plan. I would suggest you go in steps, first the trigger, sear, hammer, disconnecter etc for better trigger pull then over-sized barrel bushing for better accuracy (will require fitting), external mods such as safety, grip safety, adjustable sights.
This should take care of accuracy, performance and looks too. Then if you still feel the need, you could add the match barrel. You will have one mean machine. The slide would actually be an overkill, and not necessarily required. But then, the choice is yours :)

Moeen
20-04-2011, 07:28 PM
Salam All,
@a55kika - Well, put +1, thanks. No offence intended nor taken.
@Coolbox18 - Nicely planned and stated.
@Safeer Shah - just be patient and polish lightly assembling the part with repetition, you can always polish/grind a part down to original; however, you will loose the crispness of the trigger, the tighter the polished parts fit, the better the gun's trigger will work. I have been told by Abbas on several occasions that this is a good piece for the money. I have never seen it here in Pindi, otherwise I am sure I would have bought one. I think that this is a good project. I am putting all my eggs in the ParaOrd P18-9, the company has already sent the replacement parts I needed and I have decided to take it to a new level of shooting. So lets see the results.

a55kika
22-04-2011, 05:42 PM
@safeershah
Dude...I'm worried.This whole NP44 thing might not be such a good idea.I'm just not sure that the NP44 is a 100% clone of the 1911(Read in a US forum that it is not classified as a 1911).You might want some expert advice regarding your project.
I for one sure as hell hope your project turns out 100% successful but at the same time it concerns me.Hope the seniors share some of their knowledge regarding this matter.

safeershah
25-04-2011, 12:07 PM
coolbox, thats my plan basically it will be a long term project as i have different components from different companies so i need to try different combos for internal parts first , i think the standard barrel is not upto the mark so matchgrade barrel will be the first thing to install, slide and compesator is kind of combo from EGW so its not required any fitting but it may required some smitthing for slide, i mean when i will complete the internal combo and test it then i will go for slide and compensator.

Moeen, you will be amazed that norc44 have better review on the net then taurus 1911
a55kika, man you are portraying me as some kind of russian hitman who have massive hands, kills anyone with his bare hands :) I like CZ999 as its got the highest positive reviews on the forum and its one good gun in that price range, I know some parts cant be change for norc44 but lets see where its ends up , i tried everything on a Ithaca now want to do some honour with our brother china product :)

a55kika
25-04-2011, 12:35 PM
I think the Slider,Barrel and compensator might fix but I doubt the rest ie:hammer,trigger so on...
BTW when are you getting the norinco?

Moeen
25-04-2011, 12:38 PM
Salam All,
@Safeer Shah - Please do let me know how the Norinco is, I have been planning on getting this for a while now.

safeershah
25-04-2011, 02:02 PM
Moeen , in this price range its one hell of a gun with double stack option, grips maybe too thick for some ppl but you can change it if you want to .

Moeen
25-04-2011, 06:31 PM
Salam All,
@Safeer Shah - Currently, I have a ParaOrd. P18-9, shoots nice now, did have some factory faults in the weapon which were fixed as it too has a lifetime warranty and they had sent the parts. I am taking this model to the max. Then I think it will be time to add some new project.

safeershah
26-04-2011, 02:16 PM
a55kika, you should have some practical experience instead believing what ppl are saying on forum , you can find more positive review of norinco 44 than taurus 1911 and can you believe its better than taurus? i think you want to say that slide and barrel will not be fit but the hammer and trigger will :) checkout first about the parts interchangability of norc44 with other 1911 :)

a55kika
26-04-2011, 10:55 PM
@SafeerShah
Dude?! I never made any comments on the norc1911 :P IMO it is a good weapon within its price range & I would consider np44>PT1911.
Next point regarding the interchangeability of parts,what I said was based on a logical thought.If Norinco had to make a 1911 clone with a double stack mag capability,the only thing they should find necessary to change is the design of the bottom of the frame(Below slider which includes the trigger & hammer setup).There is no need to change the upper part(slider,barrel,nose etc).It is hard to find authentic information regarding the interchangeability of parts on the internet.However...Here is a link which might help http://www.obetyance.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&printertopic=1&t=400&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&finish_rel=-10000
It says that the NP44 will be compatible with aftermarket parts.But then again...Its just a guy on a forum.I'm afraid there is no way to be 100% sure.Either ways I think you should take the risk.It wouldn't matter if the aftermarket parts are incompatible with your norc44 since you already have 2 1911's lying around.You might as well install the parts on your Ithaca or Taurus OR sell em'.So its a win win situation.

safeershah
02-05-2011, 04:35 PM
Salam All,

I decided to upgrade my Taurus 1911 till I get Norc44 so I install grips on it , let see what comes next :) , in these pics Taurus is with my Ithaca , hope you like it

Aquarius
02-05-2011, 04:48 PM
@safeershah.. from where did you get those grips for PT 1911 ?? its looking splended indeed.

a55kika
02-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Aweeesomeeee...

safeershah
02-05-2011, 04:59 PM
Aquarius , I got them from USA

Moeen
04-05-2011, 12:09 AM
Salam All,
@Safeer Shah - Now thats the way I like to see the 1911s... fully tricked out. I'm lovin it. Congrates bro. Very very nice.

Aquarius
04-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Aquarius , I got them from USA

Are these grips available in our market ??

cyanide.dipped
04-05-2011, 01:43 AM
@ Safeershah

Bro Ithica is looking great :) i'm so envious :) :)

@Aquarius

Bro these grips can be ordered online... there is no problem in getting them from the US. All major grip makers ship internationally and these are not banned items. I am planning to buy some grips myself as soon as I am able to spend some money on my 'obsession'... lol

cyanide.dipped
04-05-2011, 01:44 AM
PS @ Safeershah

Bro howz your PT-1911 on barrel and slide fitting? You found any problems with the accuracy or durability?

safeershah
04-05-2011, 01:42 PM
Salam All,

Moeen, thanks for your compliment, everything on ithaca is matchgrade level, i changed everything, and the slide is like a glass now,

CD, My PT1911 works smoothly till now, maybe i put EGW slide and compensator on it, lets see where its end it will be a long run project

a55kika
04-05-2011, 05:07 PM
Rmr we had that 1911 guide rod debate
Original Colt 1911
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UyiffDFtfIU/Scma_AAAhrI/AAAAAAAABL8/OWpX7Oc0IPg/s400/1911+slide+back.jpg
Compared to the pt1911
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j107/pk3dnow/Taurus%20PT1911B/PT1911_3.jpg
The Colt's guide rod does not protrude out of the slider unlike the PT1911.