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View Full Version : Difference & Similarities between Baikal Mp-443 Yarigin Grach & Baikal MP-446 Viking



zainulabdeen
12-03-2011, 08:10 PM
At last I managed to spare some time to take and upload the photos of my newly purchased NIB Baikal MP-446 Viking all steel version pistol. This too, happened as there is an outage and the activities due to presence of electricity are at halt. I took the opportunity and started take photos on generator driven lights, thus, the poor light factor may be attributed to the above element.

The thought behind to specifically buy Baikal MP-446 Viking Pistol was to have a combat level weapon having a Military and battle proven / battle hardened background. Though Baikal MP-446 Viking is itself not adopted as a side arm of Russian Army but I have extensively gone through the relevant threads on Baikal MP-446 Viking and decided to buy it as it is termed as a combat pistol on the relevant website and atleast it is the closest copy of MP-443 Yarigin Grach, the official side arm of Russian Army.

There is a polymer version available also, comparatively at cheaper prices however I always think to pay some extra but to get a thing of higher caliber, hence, went for Baikal MP-446 Viking all steel version. While purchasing this black beauty I examined the polymer version also and there were some pistols in polymer version modeled 2009 and when compared the polymer version of 2009 and 2010 of Viking MP-446, I clearly felt that the polymer version of 2009 was some how substandard in quality of polymer and having a less weight, however, as Baikal MP-446 Viking all steel version was the only piece available with dealer at that time, thus, I could not compare the all steel version of 2010 that I bought and the models of previous years.

Now coming to the issue of differences and similarities between Baikal Viking MP-446 and MP-443 Yarigin Grach. The biggest difference between both pistols is obviously that Baikal Mp-443 Yarigin Grach is the official side arm of Russian Army while Baikal Mp-446 Viking is its civilian (and as termed by the manual a sporting version. However, I quote one of my senior friend in previous threads that it is written on the manual to coup up with the export implications of various countries.) and the biggest similarity between both pistols is that they are made in same enterprise, and same country. To my observations that I have made not throughly rather than in haste I am of the opinion that the only visible difference between two pistols is the front sight which, in Yarigin Grach is a bit larger than the smaller one, possessed by MP-446 Viking. Otherwise, the both of pistols are same to the extent of pin by pin and notch by notch.( here i am tlking about steel version) The observation made above is based upon the pictures of Yarigin Grach available on the net and the comparison of my Baikal MP-446 Viking all steel version. Below I try to compare both pistols from the pictures of Grach downloaded from the internet and pictures taken by me in a poor light condition. This comparison belongs to the appearance and get up of the pistols I have, yet to compare them in field stripped condition which postpone for few days with due apologies from my brothers. I did field strip my Baikal MP-446 Viking after firing a magazine of 18 rounds to clean it up but at that time I didn't have camera and I do not prefer to use mobile phone camera owing to my nature.
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zainulabdeen
12-03-2011, 08:16 PM
Post Script. I tried my level best but could not attach the images of Yarigin Grach, hence, the brothers are requested to compare the both beauties by downloading the Grach pictures of their own.
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zainulabdeen
12-03-2011, 08:23 PM
the comparison / differences and similarities between both pistols are based upon mere visual observations and there are no technical aspects involved as such.
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zainulabdeen
12-03-2011, 08:26 PM
These are the last images of today:heh:
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Trigger_happy78
12-03-2011, 08:28 PM
Congrats zainulabideen bro on buying a russian tank

arfat110
12-03-2011, 08:32 PM
nice info bro zain

Enigmatic Desires
12-03-2011, 08:54 PM
congrats sir

Dr Zakir
12-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Congratulation . In a previous thread we have discussed whether Viking can fire 7N21 ammo or not

safeershah
12-03-2011, 10:10 PM
price please

assad ahmad nawab
12-03-2011, 10:21 PM
congrats for the gun , solid as tank. and nice info shared

zainulabdeen
12-03-2011, 10:39 PM
Congratulation . In a previous thread we have discussed whether Viking can fire 7N21 ammo or not

yes brother, i have gone through such thread as well, but as concluded by my respected senior 12 gauge, that we wont be able to set our hand on those hot rounds ever, hence the discussion seems to be futile. and in my considered view, russians are not supposed to market their official sidearm . mp 446 has proven its ruggedness & combat level accuracy even beyond 50 meters, world over specially in turkey, a country , which itself has emerged as manufacturer of weapons of high quality, mp 446 ranks on the top of weapon list within its price range or even beyond as envisaged in the countless threads of gun lovers forums. but if some one proves through technical data or through some other reliable source,[not on mere heresy] that mp 446 do possess the capability of firing these hot rounds, i would be one of the happy & proud persons to own such a weapon and my passion for russian small arms would further be substantiated

zainulabdeen
13-03-2011, 09:21 AM
i also tried to compare the chamber of baikal mp 443 yarigin grach's pics available with me & my baikal mp 446 viking all steel version, as , from the thorough research of the threads and websites , to have or not to have the 90 degree chamber is said to be the difference between the civilian and military grade chambers as narrated in vinzer sports clip available on youtube on following u.r.l
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPUo_UX2r74&feature=related
. the pictures of yarigin grach i collected by downloading from various sites are taken in such away/ angle that at least i am not 100% sure as to whether mp 443 yarigin grach do possess a 90 degree chamber or not, but as a blurred idea that i have reached upon by watching the images, is that mp 443 yarigin grach has a chamber of 90 degrees and the the clip of vinzer sports mentioned to above, describing the chambers of mostly mp446 baikal vikings , that i have seen so far , available with dealers or on the internet, as a military grade chambers , appers, at least to me, as a promotional video , how ever i invite my respected senior brothers & enthusiasts to comment........................................... ............................ regards

abbasdurrani
13-03-2011, 10:25 AM
i dont like mine :-/ sights are awful

zainulabdeen
13-03-2011, 10:53 AM
not getting u properly , brother Abbas

metalgear
16-03-2011, 06:50 PM
mp-446 cannot fire 7n21 because its barrel is thinner then military version ...
thats what i know till know ...

zainulabdeen
17-03-2011, 06:46 PM
mp-446 cannot fire 7n21 because its barrel is thinner then military version ...
thats what i know till know ...

may i ask for the source of info brother. besides, i agree to wat u said

AK47
17-03-2011, 09:20 PM
@zainulabdeen ......Congrats bro! I had missed this thread since days and just found your newly availed hardware! Excellent purchase.

Briefs:

1) You're emphasising the comparison to Grach model beyond need. A weapon that is not available to us, needs not be compared here to that which is available.

2) Our main concern is comparison to existing available models, 2009/2010 polymer.

3) The technical details should have been highlighted, so you can do it now. What's the barrel length, i.e, there's a confusion around that it's past the 112mm's of the polymer version???

4) How's the feel of the trigger, even better than on the previous?

5) How's the weight, any difference?

6) On what did you shoot out those 18 rounds, how's accuracy?

7) Any difference in the girth of the grips, between this one and the others that you saw in the shop? Did you feel any difference in the gripping comfort, or is it completely same?

8) How's the finishing of the steeled frame and slide, and is the shine due to oil?

These are things to report on, in addition to a field-stripped view of internals. Kindly oblige, for the greater and more useful share here.

Overall, it looks like one great item, I hope you'll enjoy for long.

Congrats again, and happy shooting.


Regards.

metalgear
17-03-2011, 09:51 PM
MP-446 Viking

The MP-446 Viking is a semi-automatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-automatic_firearm) 9mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm) handgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun) originating from Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-446_Viking#cite_note-WorldGuns-0) It was created by the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhevsk_Mechanical_Plant), located in Russia. It weighs at around 830 grams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram) when unloaded, and has a magazine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29) capacity of 17 rounds. The pistol is a sport/civilian version of Yarygin PYa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-443_Grach) pistol which has been used by Russian military since 2003. MP-446 is short recoil-operated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation), locked breech pistol. The key differences between MP-466 and PYa are the frame material (polyamide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamide)) and barrel construction: in MP-446 the barrel was weakened to prevent discharge of high-powered armour-piercing military rounds (7N21 type). For civilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian) use, the pistol can only be loaded with 10 rounds of 9mm Luger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9mm_Luger).

source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP-446_Viking


on the web pictures of mp-446 and mp-443 have clear difference in the barrel thickness in the middle ...
446 is thinner in the middle and front part of barrel is thick whereas in gratch the barrel is equally thick ...

the metal version of mp-446 is only different in grip part rest is the same ....

Dr Zakir
17-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Very right AK 47 and metal gear

zainulabdeen
18-03-2011, 12:49 PM
Ok brother , just let me arrive at home on sunday. Viking is over there and here i sleep with a beauty of german origin, but cant discuss it due to apprehended mods anger :eyebrows: as forum rules dont allow it

Denovo87
18-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Ok brother , just let me arrive at home on sunday. Viking is over there and here i sleep with a beauty of german origin, but cant discuss it due to apprehended mods anger :eyebrows: as forum rules dont allow it

Mods will be more angry if they have not been sent the photos of German originated beauty (in private).... at least I can speak of myself, so send these to me before you start sleeping with Russian Beast ;)

zainulabdeen
18-03-2011, 03:35 PM
ha ha ha ha ha. wat a sweet response

metalgear
18-03-2011, 11:04 PM
my mp-446 with .30

zainulabdeen
18-03-2011, 11:09 PM
appears to be the steel version ?

metalgear
18-03-2011, 11:13 PM
its synthetic frame with nickel plated interior ....

AK47
19-03-2011, 12:34 AM
its synthetic frame with nickel plated interior ....

Kindly elaborate what is meant by nickel plated interior in this model?

Regards.

AK47
19-03-2011, 01:12 AM
my mp-446 with .30

Finally a close up comparison:

The new steeled one seems to have a more "streamlined" frame, if you check from muzzle end, rearward, a slight change with the mag release, better finish:

metalgear
19-03-2011, 04:27 PM
this pic with two pistol grips is pic by denovo i think ... which shows two type of materials used in mp-446 ..
the one i have is made of nickel ...
the golden type material ....

zainulabdeen
19-03-2011, 04:34 PM
both shown in ur post, metalgear, are polymer version, as far as i remember.

metalgear
19-03-2011, 04:36 PM
zain brother im telling the difference between nickel inner part and regular part which are two different categories in polymer pistols ....

zainulabdeen
19-03-2011, 04:39 PM
acknowledged, thanks my dear

zainulabdeen
23-03-2011, 08:01 PM
on the last Sunday, i couldnt come home due to exigencies of duties, however due to pak w-i quarter final, i reached at home as to watch this event with family is a different and relaxing event. the historic victory added honey to the milk. now praying for a successful upload of the images of my baikal mp 446 all steel version in field stripped condition

zainulabdeen
23-03-2011, 08:14 PM
the immages are uploaded first , than the text

zainulabdeen
23-03-2011, 08:32 PM
there is much difference between a polymer and steel version mp446 that i would be sharing after uplad

zainulabdeen
23-03-2011, 08:51 PM
the internal side of frame, where barrel rests , is black in appearance to naked eye , however color seems to be changed due to hyper flash of camera , i suppose

zainulabdeen
23-03-2011, 09:05 PM
thanks God , it is a pleasure to field strip this gun. but to have an easy field strip is the hallmark of Russian small arms

zainulabdeen
24-03-2011, 09:53 AM
brother ak 47 made my job plenty easy by guiding me, vide his previous post ,about the points ,that i should concentrate upon while writing about this black beauty. i shall try to follow them.

the difference between the polymer version of model 2009 and the polymer version of 2010 was so great that even a visual look was ready to reveal that. from the bare appearance only, the finish , the plymer used in 2009 model, specially the under barrel and grip area, was obviously looking a bit substandard. and when i took a mp446 2009 polymer in one hand & took the mp446 2010 polymer in other , 2009 felt to be lighter one . on the contrary , when i took my steel version in one hand and polymer version 2010in othr, there was not so big difference in both as far as felt by me . and so far as i remember & if my memory serves me well, there were no so called rails under the barrel of polymer version of 2010

Mohammad
24-03-2011, 10:32 AM
zainulabdeen brother very comprehensive and well writtern thread started. Until now i wasn't aware of the steel frame viking version. Kindly provide us with the info about its availability and price range.

zainulabdeen
24-03-2011, 12:44 PM
the double action trigger pull in mp 446 polymer version 2010 , as i felt it , was too long and hard, actually a cumbersome one. but , to my astonishment , the double action trigger pull of polymer 2009 was far better than 2010 polymer version. ( this may very kindly b noted that observations that i am recording here are based upon a superficial look of few pistols available with the dealer and i dont know the record/history of those pistols ). the steel version that i bought was the only piece available in lucky star market on that day, thus i was not in a position to compare it with rest of former models. the double action pull of my baikal mp 446 2010 steel version , how ever is an ideal one and the second shot is quicker and swift. the grips of steel version are more comfortable and fit my palms perfectly. the ambi safety , which was a bit sticky in both 2009 & 2010 polymer versions , is easy to operate in steel verion

zainulabdeen
25-03-2011, 11:39 AM
i fired a s& w 9 mm today and if compared with baikal mp 446 steel , it kicks like a mule. the ammo i used was same and shots were fired with a view to judge/ compare the felt recoil of both guns

sayyedain
25-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Zainulabideen brother very detailed info. but U dont tell about its accuracy kindly tell about it. i like this pistol too. and i also send my license for change of bore from .32 bore to one npb so i can buy new weapon. and baikal mp-446 is my 1st choice. so kindly tell me about its accuracy cause i like target shooting. i will thankful to U

zainulabdeen
26-03-2011, 10:40 PM
Zainulabideen brother very detailed info. but U dont tell about its accuracy kindly tell about it. i like this pistol too. and i also send my license for change of bore from .32 bore to one npb so i can buy new weapon. and baikal mp-446 is my 1st choice. so kindly tell me about its accuracy cause i like target shooting. i will thankful to U

brother i have yet to fire it with regard to see its accuracy as i couldnt spare time for it. the first mag of 18 rounds that i fired at was a wall of mud bricks and it was a random fire just to see as if some F.T.F or F.T.E happens ?. how ever so far as i hav seen and observed from the perusal of info available about this hand gun, it emerges as a gun having a combat level accuracy up to the range of 50 meters and even beyond

sayyedain
27-03-2011, 08:59 PM
ok thamks brother. i laso check my pistol accuracy not on target board but on mud wall by target some sign on it and it is enough to judge accuracy. even i have judge bullet drop also by this way. looks fuuny but i do it in this way

zainulabdeen
31-03-2011, 11:20 PM
brother ak 47, waiting for ur comments here

AK47
01-04-2011, 02:16 AM
brother ak 47, waiting for ur comments here

Bro, I'd love to put my comments here, but the 18 shots on bricks don't tell me much, that too without some useful pics, lolz!

As for portraying your gun, well, really loved watching your beauty, but kindly post fewer pics and from main angles only, that would be enough and more explicit.

As regards the gun and it's accuracy, we'd appreciate some review, since there's a lot of doubt going on about the All-Steel version, so post some pics of actual target shooting that we could all comment on and judge the gun's performance from also.

Happy shooting.

Regards.

zainulabdeen
01-04-2011, 06:48 PM
noted for future guidance br ak 47

amirch99
07-04-2011, 04:45 PM
zainulabdeen sir its really a nice gun and more best thing the information that u gave us i am very thank ful to u.sir ca u plz tell us the price of viking steel an availiblity of this gun thanx and have safe shooting.

zainulabdeen
04-07-2011, 10:11 AM
there is significant difference in appearence of both baikal mp 446 polymer and all steel versions, & as far as i have observed , as i have a baikal viking mp 446 all steel, there is a visible difference in barrel as well as the chambers of both guns too............... , did any pakgunner had a chance to observe the difference in their performance too , i have never used the polymer version

zainulabdeen
17-07-2011, 12:17 AM
in my post 48 , i mentioned about the obvious difference in appearnce of the baikal viking mp 446 all steel version and polymer version. i couldnt avail any oppertunity to fire the polymer version due to lack of time , how ever i could feel the difference in appearence as well as in internal structure , but again , never had both pistols and camera and of course , the time, at one place, to picturise the same. how ever, one of my friend abroad, has the time and expertise to sit and search the internet, besides giving some time to range also. the common fector that brought us near is he also owns a baikal viking mp 446 steel version 2010 , with the difference that his has a digit of "6" just above the hammer , while mine has " 3 ". and what that digit means ? , this mystery is not solved even by the importor which imports the viking in the country of my friend. how ever , in my personal opinion, these digits my denote the region , to which certain guns are exported....... i discussed the issue of such difference with him and , day before yesterday , he emailed me the pics that i have uploaded for the education and general information of all pakgunners.... in this image , the barrel on the left is the chamber of a baikal viking all steel verion , while the chamber on the right belongs to a polymer version of 2003. as every one can easily distinguish, that the chamber of all steel version seems thicker and more power obviously

zainulabdeen
17-07-2011, 02:40 AM
again in this image , the barrel on the left belongs an steel verion and the barrel on the right belongs to a polymer version 2003.... the difference is so visible that i dont feel the need of pointing out any thing except to say that the lower and the middle part of both of the barrels are self explainatory. ,...... one thing more that i already have obsrved and stated in earlier posts that all steel version is a true copy of"mp 443 yarigin pya " , the official side arm of russian military with only difference of marking and front sight...... my friend who send these images , firmly believes that every one who owns an steel version, actually holds " mp 443 garach yarigin pya" with the difference of markings only and that differense is only due to export implications. he doesnt believes in the theory of " purposefully weakened chamber or barrel " too as, being a reloader, according to him , he has fired incredibilly hot rounds , reloaded by him, which other pistols would have never withstood, except all steeel version.... well , i dont have comments to offer on this ....... one thing more that i want to clear that , in my personal opinion, any viking, let it be a polymer version or all steel version , is far superior than than other guns in its price range , specialy , the tukish guns ..... and one thing more.. biakal viking mp 446 in either versions, is not a conceal carry weapon as it is made for open carry and if some friend is considering to carry it in a concealed manner and getting disappointed , it is his misconception, not the fault of the gun....

zainulabdeen
17-07-2011, 10:21 AM
i also request the seniors to plz add their veiws on this topic so that all pakgunners could get benefit from their considered views/ comments....

Denovo87
17-07-2011, 10:49 AM
in my post 48 , i mentioned about the obvious difference in appearnce of the baikal viking mp 446 all steel version and polymer version. i couldnt avail any oppertunity to fire the polymer version due to lack of time , how ever i could feel the difference in appearence as well as in internal structure , but again , never had both pistols and camera and of course , the time, at one place, to picturese the same. how ever, one of my friend abroad, has the time and expertise to sit and search the internet, besides giving some time to rangea also. the common fector that brought us near is he also owns a baikal viking mp 446 steel version 2010 , with the difference that his has a digit of "6" just above the hammer , while mine has " 3 ". and what that digit means ? , this mystery is not solved even by the importor which imports the viking in the country of my friend. how ever , in my personal opinion, these digits my denote the region , to which certain guns are exported....... i discussed the issue of such difference with him and , day before yesterday , he emailed me the pics that i have uploaded for the education and general information of all pakgunners.... in this image , the barrel on the left is the chamber of a baikal viking all steel verion , while the chamber on the right belongs to a polymer version of 2003. as every one can easily distinguish, that the chamber of all steel version seems thicker and more power obviously

Zain bro, not sure about the other differences but the Viking I had (2010 Poly model) was with the same barrel shown as steel model barrel in your picture, was with two separated feeding ramps to slide left & right column rounds using separate ways.

zainulabdeen
20-07-2011, 08:40 AM
Zain bro, not sure about the other differences but the Viking I had (2010 Poly model) was with the same barrel shown as steel model barrel in your picture, was with two separated feeding ramps to slide left & right column rounds using separate ways.

U ARE RIGHT BROTHER DEN, my canadian friend talked to the importer who iports viking in his country and according to him , there is no difference in the barrels of poly & steel versions of 2010 make . u r absolutely right

zainulabdeen
04-09-2012, 07:18 AM
there have been rumors of russian army ditching yarygin pya pistol and adopting an other pistol (stritch ?). but it was later confirmed that elite russian forces ( SSG/spasnaz) would continue to use yarygin but other forces may use the new striker fired sritch . came across this video on youtube and thought to share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAkk6dWqyiA&feature=player_embedded

but the pistol in this video appears more as BAIKAL VIKING MP 446 polymer version

zainulabdeen
05-04-2013, 10:59 AM
i have been reading the posts of various friends getting the genuineness of their baikal viking MP446 confirmed from the concerned manufacturer. I also thought to follow the trend and send an email to them. after receiving no reply from them for a week ( which was just a normal time for a big company to respond) i started to email them daily :smile: at last after 10 days i got the below email from them
Yes, Sir,

The pistol is produced by Baikal in 2010.
Do not worry,
Regards,

Sales dpt.
www,imzcorp.com

27.03.2013 13:00, dmy пишет:


Though the reply was more than enough for me , yet i emailed them to be more specific in their answer . The were co-operative enough to respond in following manner too


Dear Mr. Zainul,

The pistol of MP-446 model with serial number xxxxxxxxxxx was made by our plant at 01.07.2010 and was sold to the "Orient Trader" company.

Best regards,
Vladimir P. Budanov, Chief Designer of Baikal

Now it has been believed here that biakal pistols reach here via turkey . Though the above email do not specify as to which country the "orient Trader company " belongs to , yet i feeel it is Pakistan based company.
Waiting for experts to comment

Enigmatic Desires
07-04-2013, 10:02 PM
Orient are based in Lahore neela Gumbad area. If I recollect correctly

Weedpimp
10-04-2013, 11:43 PM
Yes behind Hira arms. Treated me well for a window shopper.

doc pistol
11-04-2013, 06:31 PM
Yes behind Hira arms. Treated me well for a window shopper.

they r very decent guys,

zainulabdeen
21-04-2013, 10:37 AM
as discussed already, i have been exchanging emails with the high ranking officers of baikal which manufactures the Yarigin Pya Grach pistol for russian armed forces . the point of my interest was the material used in the barrels of viking MP446 steel version pistols and material made in PYA pistol being same or not . the baikal persons have confirmed that the material made in the barrels of both of above pistols is very same and there is no difference. They even particularly mentioned my pistol having the same barrel as contained by any Yarigin Pya Grach pistol for my sanctification. in an email the revealed the complete composition formula of they use in making military barrels in russian small arms. i dont know whether it is already known to public or not , but i want to pass that email on to sir skeeter 60 as it may be beneficial to my army and country in any way . Would any body kindly let me know the email of sir skeeter 60

pisces007
25-08-2013, 05:43 PM
bro i also want to buy baikal mp446 shuld i can go for polymer or not? wats your openion.... i think you r in favor of polymer....?
as discussed already, i have been exchanging emails with the high ranking officers of baikal which manufactures the Yarigin Pya Grach pistol for russian armed forces . the point of my interest was the material used in the barrels of viking MP446 steel version pistols and material made in PYA pistol being same or not . the baikal persons have confirmed that the material made in the barrels of both of above pistols is very same and there is no difference. They even particularly mentioned my pistol having the same barrel as contained by any Yarigin Pya Grach pistol for my sanctification. in an email the revealed the complete composition formula of they use in making military barrels in russian small arms. i dont know whether it is already known to public or not , but i want to pass that email on to sir skeeter 60 as it may be beneficial to my army and country in any way . Would any body kindly let me know the email of sir skeeter 60

zainulabdeen
25-08-2013, 06:58 PM
bro i also want to buy baikal mp446 shuld i can go for polymer or not? wats your openion.... i think you r in favor of polymer....?

well brother, the polymer version was available even at cheaper price yet i preferred all steel version. The poly version is nit bad either. It is a matter of personal choice . I am a fan of all steel guns.

pisces007
25-08-2013, 07:10 PM
bro in khi i think i cant find steel or any one have this plz let me know i will buy dis and price thank you bro...
well brother, the polymer version was available even at cheaper price yet i preferred all steel version. The poly version is nit bad either. It is a matter of personal choice . I am a fan of all steel guns.

Enigmatic Desires
26-08-2013, 02:34 PM
So zain bhai feel like selling your Grach?

380ACP
26-08-2013, 02:54 PM
Grach ? Does he has a mp443 with actually mp 443 markings on it ?

Enigmatic Desires
26-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Grach ? Does he has a mp443 with actually mp 443 markings on it ?

i have no actually seen it. next time I meet him I will ask him to bring it along.

380ACP
26-08-2013, 04:20 PM
similarities and differences is a long debate everyone has his own opinion but as far as i know no mp 443 made it out of russia yet with its original markings there was a rumor that 2 pieces were reported to br seen in Jamrud but yet not confirmed

Mian Jee
26-08-2013, 04:51 PM
i have no actually seen it. next time I meet him I will ask him to bring it along.

Why not go to the first page & see it right now ?

Enigmatic Desires
26-08-2013, 05:03 PM
Why not go to the first page & see it right now ?

As I am sure u will agree now that U are over your teen years.. The satisfaction of touch is waay better then merely observing pictures..

380ACP
26-08-2013, 05:04 PM
thats not grach mp 443

pisces007
27-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Also like all steel but not in karachi still looking for it when i dont find then i will buy polymer...
well brother, the polymer version was available even at cheaper price yet i preferred all steel version. The poly version is nit bad either. It is a matter of personal choice . I am a fan of all steel guns.

zainulabdeen
27-08-2013, 06:31 PM
So zain bhai feel like selling your Grach?

Nope :) .

since i got the email from baikal confirming that the barrel of MP 443 Grach and MP446 steel version are the same, i dont have any doubt in saying that both pistols are the same with the only difference of marking and front sight. And you know if you are selling a military grade weapon under the description of a sporting version, you have to make some visible difference :smokin:

380ACP
27-08-2013, 06:38 PM
zain bro what did they say about the difference in design of chamber ? Grach throughout its production remained the same but steel versions of mp 446 have different chamber designs in different years, anything related to this in the email they sent to you ?

380ACP
27-08-2013, 06:40 PM
and another very important thing did the email says that only mp 446 steel version has the barrel of grach while polymer version barrel is weaker ?

zainulabdeen
27-08-2013, 07:49 PM
zain bro what did they say about the difference in design of chamber ? Grach throughout its production remained the same but steel versions of mp 446 have different chamber designs in different years, anything related to this in the email they sent to you ?


and another very important thing did the email says that only mp 446 steel version has the barrel of grach while polymer version barrel is weaker ?

Bro I told you that in my opinion, based on hundreds of hours research on internet, there no difference in grach and viking steel version . Except the front sight and markings , both grach and viking mp446 steel version are pin by pin and notch by notch the same, even their chamber is very same

zainulabdeen
27-08-2013, 08:06 PM
The fresh pictures of my Baikal Viking MP446 All Steel Version

http://imageshack.us/a/img577/1401/s5vk.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img834/2469/0kmd.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img801/4230/vv28.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/4333/u5uz.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img692/9503/dwq1.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img819/2082/pucj.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img7/3279/l4vj.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img545/2946/vplc.jpg

380ACP
27-08-2013, 08:57 PM
Zain bro seems you overlooked my question regarding the polymer version of viking does the email says that there is difference in barrel strength of polymer and steel mp 446 and the steel version is fittee with a barrel of military version mp 443 ? Another good news is that hopefuly i am getting mp 443 with its original marking in december this year, only side by side comparison can tell the difference which i with other pg members will surely do,

zainulabdeen
27-08-2013, 09:17 PM
Zain bro seems you overlooked my question regarding the polymer version of viking does the email says that there is difference in barrel strength of polymer and steel mp 446 and the steel version is fittee with a barrel of military version mp 443 ? Another good news is that hopefuly i am getting mp 443 with its original marking in december this year, only side by side comparison can tell the difference which i with other pg members will surely do,

I didnt ask about polymer version as i dont have one . besides anxious to see ur grach in december.

shahroze
27-08-2013, 09:38 PM
The grach can fire +p+ loads
I am not sure about the Viking

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 11:55 AM
The grach can fire +p+ loads
I am not sure about the Viking

I am not sure about that. Contrary to popular belief. Military ammo tends to be uniform. I.e straight forward GI ball ammo built to mil spec standards.

its teh civilian ammo that has to go though all manners of weird ammo. JHPs/+Ps/reloads etc etc.

380ACP
28-08-2013, 03:39 PM
The russian military over pressure rounds of 9mm or +p+ russian rounds are entirely a new cartridges the maximum pressure of 7N21 is 42,000 psi compared to 9mm nato +p+ rounds which generates a pressure of 30,000 to 34,000psi, the 7N21 rounds have a steel penetrator inside a bimetal jacket the space between bimetal jacket and steel penetrator is filled with some other material which i cant remember the name right now, the tip of steel penetrator is exposed on the projectile head, these rounds are so far the most lethal armor piercing rounds of the world and will remain so i guess as 9mm luger is standard side arm cartridge of all major military forces around ghe globe, two very special pistols were designed to fire these cartridges because the existing 9mm handguns could not sustain the high pressure generated by these carttidges, the first handgun was GSG 18, the second was Yarygin Pya Grach MP 443 which later became the ofiicial side arm of russian military and also the world's first ever 9mm handgun to fire these peak pressure rounds which in some cases pressure may reach 48,000 psi claimed by independent sources, we may never find these cartridges even for collection unless russia invades afghanistan again hehe, mp 446 steel or polymer versus mp 443 grach is a long debate,

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 03:47 PM
Do u think the Viking can handle pressures of up to 48k PSI?

380ACP
28-08-2013, 04:17 PM
Grach the project of russia of creating these peak power cartridges and to design a platform to fire these peak pressure rounds was the most expensive project in the history of world for a side arm, i dont see a logic that izmash is using the same metalgury in mp 446 as they are in mp 443, i wonder why russian military adopted a steel version instead of much lighter polymer version if metalgury is same ? I know people who claim the metalgury is same will come up witj a point that steel version of viking is also in market but remember one thing that steel version came for expirting much later the first exporting versions for almost few years were all poly version, steel version came much later and its for people who like steel over polymer, not that original grach, i believe mp 443 is made using entirely a different metalgury but still one among the best 9mm handguns in pakistani market and we should not worry about peak pressure rounds we are not getting them, so we dont need grach mp 443.

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 04:29 PM
Grach the project of russia of creating these peak power cartridges and to design a platform to fire these peak pressure rounds was the most expensive project in the history of world for a side arm, i dont see a logic that izmash is using the same metalgury in mp 446 as they are in mp 443, i wonder why russian military adopted a steel version instead of much lighter polymer version if metalgury is same ? I know people who claim the metalgury is same will come up witj a point that steel version of viking is also in market but remember one thing that steel version came for expirting much later the first exporting versions for almost few years were all poly version, steel version came much later and its for people who like steel over polymer, not that original grach, i believe mp 443 is made using entirely a different metalgury but still one among the best 9mm handguns in pakistani market and we should not worry about peak pressure rounds we are not getting them, so we dont need grach mp 443.

If I were ever to buy a baikal i would want a Grach. If it can handle ++p+ I would want to see what it does with local loads

380ACP
28-08-2013, 04:44 PM
it will do nothing except firing them, hehe

380ACP
28-08-2013, 04:48 PM
ED i also want a grach since 2008 for five years i never came close to finding one for the first time it seems i will get one in december lets pray things go smooth and i actually get one.

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 05:06 PM
ED i also want a grach since 2008 for five years i never came close to finding one for the first time it seems i will get one in december lets pray things go smooth and i actually get one.

The grach does not have rails if i recollect correctly. And secondly the weapon that felow member Zain has. Do u think its a Grach? or merely a all metal viking

380ACP
28-08-2013, 05:13 PM
why would izmash put mp 446 marking on original grach ? Its a all steel viking i told you there are no mp 443 in pakistan and not anywhere else they are not being exported to any country,

pisces007
28-08-2013, 05:14 PM
from were bro? i also want 1...
ED i also want a grach since 2008 for five years i never came close to finding one for the first time it seems i will get one in december lets pray things go smooth and i actually get one.

380ACP
28-08-2013, 05:17 PM
pisces first let me get one

pisces007
28-08-2013, 05:28 PM
insha allah bro u will get it.... then dont forgot me:thumb:
pisces first let me get one

zainulabdeen
28-08-2013, 08:57 PM
The grach does not have rails if i recollect correctly. And secondly the weapon that felow member Zain has. Do u think its a Grach? or merely a all metal viking

see the pics clearly , it doesnt have rails

casanova
28-08-2013, 09:15 PM
Grach the project of russia of creating these peak power cartridges and to design a platform to fire these peak pressure rounds was the most expensive project in the history of world for a side arm, i dont see a logic that izmash is using the same metalgury in mp 446 as they are in mp 443, i wonder why russian military adopted a steel version instead of much lighter polymer version if metalgury is same ? I know people who claim the metalgury is same will come up witj a point that steel version of viking is also in market but remember one thing that steel version came for expirting much later the first exporting versions for almost few years were all poly version, steel version came much later and its for people who like steel over polymer, not that original grach, i believe mp 443 is made using entirely a different metalgury but still one among the best 9mm handguns in pakistani market and we should not worry about peak pressure rounds we are not getting them, so we dont need grach mp 443.


The logic is the financial conditions of izmash . This grat comany is in such monitery crises that it has filed for bankruptsy twice . Presedent Putin has to intervene himself twice and had to ask izmash that they should improve the quality of their wepons . he said that when the weapons exported by izmash were returned several times due to poor quality. izmash was and is not in position to produce three catagories of barrels ie one for grach second for steel version and third for poly version.
i have both steel and poly version and i tell u all that it is my practical experience that poly version is a bit less in quality to steel version but barrel is same in quality . so any one likes it or not , there is no difference between grach and steel version

380ACP
28-08-2013, 10:00 PM
though i was reluctant to say anything about differences between both mp 443 and mp446 because of many mp 446 lovers including myself, izmash is facing financial problems because of ak 100 series assault rifles which russian military turned down because they already have millions of surplus ak74 rifles, but russian defence ministry on request of izmash is considering ak 100 series rifles and as i am writing these lines three tests have been conducted and drawbacks were pointed out and ak 100 series is undergoing changes, now as far as mp 443 and mp 446 debate there are out models in poly versions which do not have rails i have seen 2012 model without rails in polymer versions and you yourself has answered your question that if izmash is undergoing a financial change why would they supply mp 446 with the same barrel which is manufactured using a different metalgury to fire special peak pressure rounds when they can make the exact design of barrel using low cost metalgury whic can fire commonly availiable +p+ rounds but not russian military over pressure rounds which belong to another class of +p+ rounds remember a russian 7N21 cartridge can generate a pressure almost equal to 7.62x51 nato round A G3 round, we can compare the strength ov viking barrel to glock barrel, h&k barrel sig barrel because all can sustain +p+ rounds but 7N21 is entirely a different cartridge in fact if you look at the cartridge it does not look like a 9mm round from its projectile, so these are all our opinions you have yours i have mine none of us can pass a verdict that this is how it is in real because none of us has actually handled mp 443 or 7N21 rounds. Just my two cents

380ACP
28-08-2013, 10:18 PM
as long as izmash people saying like in the email to zain bro that there is mo difference between viking steel and mp 443, its a marketing thing now as if wikipedia says and few other independnt sources that viking barrel is weaker to prevent civilians to use armor piercing rounds but izmash no where states it weaker same or stronger becuase who will touch a piece when manufacturer itself claims that the barrel was deliberately messed up for low cost or preventing the use of ap rounds ? Many of us buy it because of the rich history of russian military grade firearms, and as wikipedia says why izmash has not yet reached wikipedia for the correction but again its what we can think i hope i will get mp 443 in december and burry this debate forever atleast for myself and my peace of mind.

casanova
28-08-2013, 10:27 PM
why would izmash put mp 446 marking on original grach ? Its a all steel viking i told you there are no mp 443 in pakistan and not anywhere else they are not being exported to any country,

izamash doing it due to avoiding the legal complications it may face in exporting a military grade weapon. izmash (now izmash and izhvesky both conpanies have merged to constitute kalashnikov enterprise. This merger also took place due to financial crises which support my version ) is not financially able to make barrels in different catagories . it even could not pay salaries to its empoloyees for some time. and by exporting a military grade weapon under the garb of sporting version also gives a big plus when poeple around the world find an excellent military grade weapon in the price and in the name of sporting pishtol

casanova
28-08-2013, 10:32 PM
though i was reluctant to say anything about differences between both mp 443 and mp446 because of many mp 446 lovers including myself, izmash is facing financial problems because of ak 100 series assault rifles which russian military turned down because they already have millions of surplus ak74 rifles, but russian defence ministry on request of izmash is considering ak 100 series rifles and as i am writing these lines three tests have been conducted and drawbacks were pointed out and ak 100 series is undergoing changes, now as far as mp 443 and mp 446 debate there are out models in poly versions which do not have rails i have seen 2012 model without rails in polymer versions and you yourself has answered your question that if izmash is undergoing a financial change why would they supply mp 446 with the same barrel which is manufactured using a different metalgury to fire special peak pressure rounds when they can make the exact design of barrel using low cost metalgury whic can fire commonly availiable +p+ rounds but not russian military over pressure rounds which belong to another class of +p+ rounds remember a russian 7N21 cartridge can generate a pressure almost equal to 7.62x51 nato round A G3 round, we can compare the strength ov viking barrel to glock barrel, h&k barrel sig barrel because all can sustain +p+ rounds but 7N21 is entirely a different cartridge in fact if you look at the cartridge it does not look like a 9mm round from its projectile, so these are all our opinions you have yours i have mine none of us can pass a verdict that this is how it is in real because none of us has actually handled mp 443 or 7N21 rounds. Just my two cents

as i replied ismash shall do it as it is not in position to build different classes of barrels and by supplying grach barrels they sahll get back the lost confidence of izmash weapon lovers

casanova
28-08-2013, 10:36 PM
as long as izmash people saying like in the email to zain bro that there is mo difference between viking steel and mp 443, its a marketing thing now as if wikipedia says and few other independnt sources that viking barrel is weaker to prevent civilians to use armor piercing rounds but izmash no where states it weaker same or stronger becuase who will touch a piece when manufacturer itself claims that the barrel was deliberately messed up for low cost or preventing the use of ap rounds ? Many of us buy it because of the rich history of russian military grade firearms, and as wikipedia says why izmash has not yet reached wikipedia for the correction but again its what we can think i hope i will get mp 443 in december and burry this debate forever atleast for myself and my peace of mind.


wikipedia is written by different people . even you can edit it if u want and wikipedia is not an authentic source . and about email to zain saheb i will request him to share full email if it is possible for him to know what they have written

380ACP
28-08-2013, 10:55 PM
i agree wikipedia can be edited but can also be corrected when approach by the company, its been years its the same, i fail to understand why would izmash provide the same megalgury for mp 446 which is designed for russian military and fire special class of cartridges which is in my opinion more costly and needs more skills and espertise when civilians can not get their hands on 7N21 rounds and keeping in mind the financial issues of izmash isnt it logical to prevent extra cost, skills and expertise to fit mp 446 with the same barrel and use the same metalgury when the objective can be achieved on much lower cost ? Izmash is not new to firearms the first specially made pistol for 7N21 rounds was rejected by russian military experts just because ghe barrel was weaker to handle 7N21 round but best suitee 7N31 round which generates low pressure compared to 7N21 round, izmash knows civilians all over world like australia, canada and other countries except america where russian weapins are not banned can not get 7N21 rounds, so there is no lobic of using the same expensive metalbury, skill and expertise and torture testing of barrel and other parts like they do with militarh weapons, almost 5 years ago when i fell in love with mp 443 and mp 446 i remember searching for information i came across a russiam military official on some forum who posted a paper in which it was written in russian that this pistol has been fired from 35 yards using 7N21 rounds, the manual we get with over vikings here just says fired 5 rounds no where it states 7N21 rounds.

380ACP
28-08-2013, 11:07 PM
in my humble opinion viking metalgury best be compared with any high end handgun like glock, beretta, sig, and h&k but not with mp 443 which is a different pistol though same in action, design and mechanism but for a different purpose.

zainulabdeen
28-08-2013, 11:20 PM
wikipedia is written by different people . even you can edit it if u want and wikipedia is not an authentic source . and about email to zain saheb i will request him to share full email if it is possible for him to know what they have written

here you go brother Casanova

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* expert <expert@baikalinc.ru>
> *To:* Zainul Abdeen <zainulabdeen1@yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2013 5:21 PM
> *Subject:* Re: querry / question about viking MP 446
>
> Dear Mr. Zainul,
>
> The pistol of MP-446 model with serial number ------- was made by
> our plant at 01.07.2010 and was sold to the "Orient Trader" company.
>
> Best regards,
> Vladimir P. Budanov, Chief Designer of Baikal
>
>
Dear Mr. Abdeen,
the barrels of the MP-446 VIKING steel pistols and of the Yarygin PYa pistols
are made from the high-quality Russian barrel steel marked as 50PA (.5%
carbon, with small addition of bor (chemical symbol B) and low (under
.035%) includings of sulphur (S) and phosphor (P).
All of our MP-446 VIKING pistols selling abroad are made by using the
same production processes and have the same quality; there is no matter
to which country are the pistols purchased. The same relates to your
pistol No. ------------.
Best regards,
Vladimir P. Budanov, Chief Designer of Baikal company

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 11:23 PM
Ergo the viking as par this email is capable of firing 7n21 rounds.

Zain bhai why not put this debate to rest by the simple expedient of writing another email to them and asking them if the viking can fire 7n21?

zainulabdeen
28-08-2013, 11:26 PM
by this email they have disclosed the ingredients used in grach and viking MP446 steel pistol. They are the same barrels which are used in grach and steel version / This is said by a very high ranking and responsible officer of izhmash company. Now i cant do any thing if some one calls this to be a marketing gimmick

Enigmatic Desires
28-08-2013, 11:28 PM
Still whats the harm in asking them That pistol # xxxxxxx can fire 7n21 rounds or not?

if it does u have a ginune all powerful 9mm tank

zainulabdeen
28-08-2013, 11:37 PM
Ergo the viking as par this email is capable of firing 7n21 rounds.

Zain bhai why not put this debate to rest by the simple expedient of writing another email to them and asking them if the viking can fire 7n21?

My dear E.D , i dont feel any need of writing back to baikal after receiving this self explaining email . besides i am not obsessed with the thought of firing AP bullets as i know we would not be able to set our hands on them ever. I am content to the explanation of Baikal that the barrel of my gun is the same as used in garach

380ACP
29-08-2013, 12:28 AM
i have already said which company will deliberately say that they have made the barrel weak ? None in this world but why are we worried at all ? Viking can handle armor piercing rounds +p+ no doubt just like glocks, h&k and other high end guns whuch are in use by militaries around the globe, why to debate over something which we will never get our hands on between i would love to see a 7N21 round beinb fired from a polymer frame viking which generates a pressure equal to 7x51 nato round.

380ACP
29-08-2013, 12:35 AM
ED why dont you write to them ? Tell them you handload ammo and you want to fire a very hot round which may generate a pressure of 48,000 psi, another very confusing thing is that all firearms from russia come via ukraine as russia does not sale firearms to pakistan, zain bro is it the same orient traders in lahore which booked the shipment which had your pistol ? The auto ziganas from turkey and stechkins from russia scandal revealed that stechkins were bought from ukraine because russia does not sell any firearm to pakistan directly.

Enigmatic Desires
29-08-2013, 10:36 AM
ED why dont you write to them ? Tell them you handload ammo and you want to fire a very hot round which may generate a pressure of 48,000 psi, another very confusing thing is that all firearms from russia come via ukraine as russia does not sale firearms to pakistan, zain bro is it the same orient traders in lahore which booked the shipment which had your pistol ? The auto ziganas from turkey and stechkins from russia scandal revealed that stechkins were bought from ukraine because russia does not sell any firearm to pakistan directly.

I called up the good man and asked him to do the needful complete with his weapon # and everything!

casanova
29-08-2013, 09:07 PM
here you go brother Casanova

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* expert <expert@baikalinc.ru>
> *To:* Zainul Abdeen <zainulabdeen1@yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2013 5:21 PM
> *Subject:* Re: querry / question about viking MP 446
>
> Dear Mr. Zainul,
>
> The pistol of MP-446 model with serial number ------- was made by
> our plant at 01.07.2010 and was sold to the "Orient Trader" company.
>
> Best regards,
> Vladimir P. Budanov, Chief Designer of Baikal
>
>
Dear Mr. Abdeen,
the barrels of the MP-446 VIKING steel pistols and of the Yarygin PYa pistols
are made from the high-quality Russian barrel steel marked as 50PA (.5%
carbon, with small addition of bor (chemical symbol B) and low (under
.035%) includings of sulphur (S) and phosphor (P).
All of our MP-446 VIKING pistols selling abroad are made by using the
same production processes and have the same quality; there is no matter
to which country are the pistols purchased. The same relates to your
pistol No. ------------.
Best regards,
Vladimir P. Budanov, Chief Designer of Baikal company

AAha . this should conclude the debate i think. if this sort of proof had been brought against my version, i wolud have agreed because if we keep rejecting every thing not supporting our version by calling it a marketing gimmick , where shall the argument conclude? . Simply no where . S for me atleast , the debate is over and i feel satisfied that my pistols are containing the same barrel as contained by grach and it means that it can fire 7N21 rounds :clap2:

380ACP
29-08-2013, 10:07 PM
Casanova bro the debate is not new its going on this forum since 2009, everyone who has his view points has some material and logic to support as you have and i respect that you sharebit over here thats how one comes to the bottom line not by making someone believe what one thinks without letting the other explain his point of view and there is nothing to be offended at which i know everyone gets when he is in debate regarding his choice of handgun and one more thing that its not your choice but also mine i am a viking owner as well but i dont mind a critic saying what he feels because that helps me understand the gun better, lets come to the email offcource its a supporting point but that does not conclude the debate and it should be not concluded a little more debate wont bring any harm if people are willing to share their views without getting offended everyone who has a point who has some material to support his point of view mine is that a large number of mp 443 were bought by ukranian special forces a guy who i know from pakistan handled the mp 443 and told me that there is a difference between weight of both guns mp 443 and mp 446 viking now that is enough to raise questions in the minds of people like me who own vikings and want to know is it exactly the same gun as mp443 ? Anyways i am going to review both guns in december my piece is on its way original mp 443 with original markings, rest 7N21 rounds i am not worried because am mot getting them even if war breaks out again between russia and afghanistan its not possible because 9mm will be the side arm of russian forces not primary weapon for which ammo production is on a massive scale.

casanova
29-08-2013, 10:55 PM
Casanova bro the debate is not new its going on this forum since 2009, everyone who has his view points has some material and logic to support as you have and i respect that you sharebit over here thats how one comes to the bottom line not by making someone believe what one thinks without letting the other explain his point of view and there is nothing to be offended at which i know everyone gets when he is in debate regarding his choice of handgun and one more thing that its not your choice but also mine i am a viking owner as well but i dont mind a critic saying what he feels because that helps me understand the gun better, lets come to the email offcource its a supporting point but that does not conclude the debate and it should be not concluded a little more debate wont bring any harm if people are willing to share their views without getting offended everyone who has a point who has some material to support his point of view mine is that a large number of mp 443 were bought by ukranian special forces a guy who i know from pakistan handled the mp 443 and told me that there is a difference between weight of both guns mp 443 and mp 446 viking now that is enough to raise questions in the minds of people like me who own vikings and want to know is it exactly the same gun as mp443 ? Anyways i am going to review both guns in december my piece is on its way original mp 443 with original markings, rest 7N21 rounds i am not worried because am mot getting them even if war breaks out again between russia and afghanistan its not possible because 9mm will be the side arm of russian forces not primary weapon for which ammo production is on a massive scale.

(1) which viking do u have . steel or poly. If steel one , PLz upload pics
(2) As per info on internet , the finencial constraints has prevented Russians to equip its army with grach mp443 and makarov 9x18 is still largely used by them . grach is issued only to russian special services group , so how come ukranians bought grach in large numbers from russia
(3)The person who told u that there is difference in weight handled poly version or steel version of viking mp 446 ( however i am sure u will say now that he handled a steel version but u should have clrearified earlier)

I am eagerly waiting to see ur grach coming from ukrane but that wait appers to be endless

380ACP
29-08-2013, 11:10 PM
alright brother as this has become a argue against argue because of your approach and not respecting what anyohe else is saying so i am sure this will never end, by tye way you were right and sure i have viking steel version as well as viking polymer the steelnwas not bought for steel frame but just for two extra mags as no extra mags are availible in market, the coming of mp 443 is not going to be engless i already have bought few pb and got them imported from ukraine same way, as far ukranian army buying russian arms is concerned you shoukd know that 90% ukranian weaponry is russian made and its a close ally of russia and the coorporation between both armies is on a very large scale. And please this is the first time i have seen someone here on forum who is suspecting any other member for making up things as you in your post said that you are sure for the sake or arguement i will say i own viking. Izmash is a company if russian military has not buying anything that does not mean any other country will also not buy from izmash.

colt 1911
29-08-2013, 11:40 PM
i have already said which company will deliberately say that they have made the barrel weak ? None in this world but why are we worried at all ? Viking can handle armor piercing rounds +p+ no doubt just like glocks, h&k and other high end guns whuch are in use by militaries around the globe, why to debate over something which we will never get our hands on between i would love to see a 7N21 round beinb fired from a polymer frame viking which generates a pressure equal to 7x51 nato round.

can glocks handle 7N21 rounds?

380ACP
30-08-2013, 12:15 AM
colt 1911 to understand this we have to do our own research as glock company does not states in its manual that glock can handle 7N21 round, glock 20 in 10mm auto has highest kaboom ratio as compared to other caliber models because a 10mm auto can generate a pressure up to 39,000 psi, you can fire if you get your hands on these peak pressure rounds from any good handgun which is market to fire +p+ rounds but these peak pressure round will wear off the bun pretty soon lets suppose if the barrel life of glock of 100,000k rounds by firing you will reduce it to 20k only. These peak pressure rounds hosting a very fast burning powder compared to commonly availiable +p+ rounds to other milutaries. The maximum pressure of 7N21 is almost 13,000 psi more compared to 10mm auto and if glock 20 has highest kaboom ratio you can well imagine glock 17,19,26,34 firing these rounds which offcource host a weaker chamber compared to glock 20 in 10mm auto

pisces007
30-08-2013, 05:58 PM
very nice question bro....
can glocks handle 7N21 rounds?

pisces007
31-08-2013, 02:44 AM
24202
380 acp bro both are polymer baikal mp446 my question is the inside all steel is 2012 model polymer m rite or wrong...???

380ACP
31-08-2013, 03:05 AM
baikal started inserting steel plates in 2010 and onward models, the proper rail was made in 2012 models.

pisces007
31-08-2013, 03:09 AM
thank you bro tomorow i will buy dis insha allah
if i wake up till 4pm:angel:
baikal started inserting steel plates in 2010 and onward models, the proper rail was made in 2012 models.

380ACP
31-08-2013, 03:16 AM
buy it today because tom is sunday,

pisces007
31-08-2013, 03:19 AM
yes bro i will:)
buy it today because tom is sunday,

380ACP
31-08-2013, 03:38 AM
keep one thing in mind that in 2012 stock cracks in frame were reported in NIB guns so when you are buying check properly minor lines in frame specially tye place near mag release button etc.

pisces007
31-08-2013, 03:44 AM
yes bro will look into it closly thx so much... and also look for 2013 model
keep one thing in mind that in 2012 stock cracks in frame were reported in NIB guns so when you are buying check properly minor lines in frame specially tye place near mag release button etc.

casanova
31-08-2013, 07:57 AM
keep one thing in mind that in 2012 stock cracks in frame were reported in NIB guns so when you are buying check properly minor lines in frame specially tye place near mag release button etc.

there is no credible info on cracks. No clear pic , no first hand knowledge , no nothing. It is just a heresay . Go ahead and buy :nod:without fears of cracks issue , atleast

pakistanitoup
31-08-2013, 11:49 AM
24202
380 acp bro both are polymer baikal mp446 my question is the inside all steel is 2012 model polymer m rite or wrong...???

the one with golden shine is Nickel plated and the right one is metal insert. both are polymer

380ACP
31-08-2013, 02:09 PM
Casanova dont be childish there are cracks or there are no cracks, it was reported that 2012 models have cracks so there is no harm in checking the handgun, one should check throughly before buying, buying anything with closed eyes is nothing but a plain stupidity.

casanova
31-08-2013, 10:41 PM
Casanova dont be childish there are cracks or there are no cracks, it was reported that 2012 models have cracks so there is no harm in checking the handgun, one should check throughly before buying, buying anything with closed eyes is nothing but a plain stupidity.

well i want to tell u a line of Rehman babas poetry , it means " if crow make much noise , O nightingale , dont loose your calibre and remain silent as ur silence is best answer to its ugly voice " . So i remain silent.

and what is meant by cracks or no cracks , it was reported that 2012 models have cracks . . when you are not sure , why to create panic on assumptions . if u were not confirm about crack issue you should have told him that it is just a report so be careful .
the youngesters heed us and follow us so why misguide them. Present the true picture and let them decide . dont make them double minded with your faulty knowledge , my brother

380ACP
01-09-2013, 01:09 AM
You have used a line of a great poet where it was not needed, this is a discussion forum about firearms not a market place for some brand in which you acting like a sole representative of baikal company asking people to buy baikal products without even checking them in my post i have advisedna fellow member to be careful as somewhere on this forum it was reported that 2012 model viking was returned because of cracks in frame, you also advised the fellow member the same in replying to my post bu saying be careful, do you really think i am making the fellow membr double minded by saying to check the gun properly or you have already checked all the NIB viking mp 446 which were imported in pakistan that none have cracked frame issues, excuse me but we here on forum never bought even a glock, sig or h&k without checking properly these are the companies which well earned their rep because of quality firearms, i talked over your posts and replied to them considering you a mature firearm enthusiast and for a fruitful discussion but my bad i was very wrong, and another very important thing that whatever you have posted was either from google or wikipedia not your own conclusions a buyer of a firearm ultimately draws his own conclusions which every enthusiast does and listen to others for a more realistic view but people like you consider themselves an authority and are deaf to any creative thing and such discussion are always left in middle because of non serious attitudes, i on the end note once again want to make it very clear that as we have no data availible anywhere regarding the metalgury of the handgun in question and we could have a fruitful discussion nut unfortunately thats not possible unless people are ready yo hear others, and stop thinking that what they know is always correct, i might be wrong in everything dear casanova but i am sure i am not wrong in thinking that i can learn new things, and my dear nightingale science was not much developed in the days of Rahman Baba crow is indeed a very inteligent bird who lives in a society unlike nightingales who cant stand any other nightingale, so living in a society taught me quite a few things which you lack beautiful nightingale. And yes please dont think that i agree to your title crow for me i ptotest i am good being a human, but if you have no objection in can call you nightingale in future, best regards and best wishes for learning new things.

380ACP
01-09-2013, 01:13 AM
and yes i have encouraged everyone who is in market to buy mp 446 i actually went a step forward and compared the metalgury of viking mp 446 with glocks the standard setting high end gun in market unlike you by comparing it or calling it a same gun i.e mp 443 and world has to wait for a independent review, which yet has seen no action neither its a battle proven design. Just my two cents.

pisces007
01-09-2013, 01:32 AM
380acp bro and casanova (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?14427-casanova) love you both bro we always learn from you all seniors dont mind its ok just chill yar no worys its just a handgun... all are human made nothing is perfect...
rite:):)

Enigmatic Desires
02-09-2013, 01:54 PM
BTW I have seen pictures of the ones that had cracks. belonging to members of another local gun forum here in Pakistan. I myself am not an aficionado of the viking so did not follow up on it. but yes the cracked frames definitely do exist.

doc pistol
03-09-2013, 01:00 PM
380acp bro and casanova (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?14427-casanova) love you both bro we always learn from you all seniors dont mind its ok just chill yar no worys its just a handgun... all are human made nothing is perfect...
rite:):)

very well said sir

zainulabdeen
07-11-2013, 04:57 PM
is this a marketing gimmick by Baikal

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/07/baikal-yarigin-lightweight-polymer-pistol/

380ACP
29-11-2013, 01:12 AM
Interesting Zainulabdeen brother so the debate mp 446 vs mp 443 ends ? Because mp 446 was already in market in both polymer and steel versions so what was the need of introducing the same handgun again ? Now we have 4 different handguns of pya grach mp 443 steel, mp 443 polymer, mp 446 steel and mp 446 polymer, so if mp 443 polymer is not for export which i believe is not just like mp 443 steel we can not call it a marketing gimmick because it will give no profit to baikal except raising questions in minds of all mp 446 owners who believe its the same gun like mp 443 grach, and if mp 446 was the same gun as mp 443 grach there was no need for the cosmetic changes to undergo a military test, i can only say either baikal guys are gone nuts or these are two very different hanguns, i hope these new polymer mp 443 will come to our part of world as they have no markings like steel versions maybe thats why they are not marked because mp 443 grach is the service pistol of russian army.

Aquarius
29-11-2013, 03:05 PM
If its the service pistol of the Russian Army, I doubt it will be available here regardless of it being Polymer or Steel.

colt 1911
29-11-2013, 05:24 PM
@380ACP...seems like you were away for research on this 443 & 446 issue and couldnt hold yourself back after getting the desired information :). kidding...anyways welcome back

380ACP
29-11-2013, 10:12 PM
no colt brother its not that i was away for research on handguns but where else you can find a hunter in winter ?

colt 1911
29-11-2013, 10:25 PM
no colt brother its not that i was away for research on handguns but where else you can find a hunter in winter ?

ahan! so where did you go for hunting and what did you hunt?

380ACP
29-11-2013, 11:26 PM
colt brother forum rules are not that liberal hehe,