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Shooterz
25-08-2010, 10:02 PM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?

Afzaal
25-08-2010, 10:41 PM
sir theres no comparison between 2 since hd is main objective.

12ga is the most preferable.

Vik
26-08-2010, 09:11 AM
Magazine shotgun, Its not easy to insert mag in AK or AR type semi auto shotgun.
Some of the mags are plastic or plastic type.
Have a look at Turkish TomaHawk.

notorious
26-08-2010, 09:23 AM
The one i like is, AKDAL M 16 type...one AK brother and naveed brother checked out in one of the threads...

Silent killerr
26-08-2010, 09:58 AM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?
.22 Rifle :o :o ? are you kidding me. it takes at least 10-15 shots on the right place to stop a person :(
.22 is just for fun i mean for target shooting. ;)

12 guage is considered as best for HD, And tube magazine is better so go for it and i think you are a new user so DSA is very good option

Bluff
26-08-2010, 10:29 AM
http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5680

hmmm multiple threads @mods please close one

Vik
26-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?
.22 Rifle :o :o ? are you kidding me. it takes at least 10-15 shots on the right place to stop a person :(
.22 is just for fun i mean for target shooting. ;)

12 guage is considered as best for HD, And tube magazine is better so go for it and i think you are a new user so DSA is very good option

What makes you so sure that It requires 10-15 shots of .22 to stop a person(read bad guy).
This is what I think of .22. Its a learning tool to move to next level.

Silent killerr
26-08-2010, 07:58 PM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?
.22 Rifle :o :o ? are you kidding me. it takes at least 10-15 shots on the right place to stop a person :(
.22 is just for fun i mean for target shooting. ;)

12 guage is considered as best for HD, And tube magazine is better so go for it and i think you are a new user so DSA is very good option

What makes you so sure that It requires 10-15 shots of .22 to stop a person(read bad guy).
This is what I think of .22. Its a learning tool to move to next level.

I think it takes 1-2 bullets of .45, 3-4 of 9mm, to stop a bad guy. But if shoot on right place then 1 is enough. When it comes to .22, this caliber is not designed for SD/HD, it is just for fun. if a person rely on .22 for SD/HD he will definitely put his life on line. if it doesn't take 10-15, it will definitely take 8-10 :|

Mig
26-08-2010, 08:55 PM
@Silent Killer.

Yes You are right. the Bad Guy is not a Standing Target that U place the bullet to the right place. he must be a Moving and Resisting entity, so we cant rely on a .22

Go for a Pump Action Shotgun, or a Semi-Auto Shotgun if u dont like pump. And if dont want a shotgun, At least go for a 9mm pistol but do not think of .22 again for SD/HD

Aquarius
27-08-2010, 02:38 AM
Choosing in between Semis and Pumps for pure HD, I would preferably recommend Pump Action..
Otherwise if you are not comfortable with long guns, go for a reliable 9mm handgun.... :)

Shooterz
27-08-2010, 10:37 AM
And if select btw 9mm an GSG 5 which is the best for HD?

Silent killerr
27-08-2010, 11:24 AM
Shooterz, GSG 5 is .22 rifle. If you choose GSG as your self defense weapon, believe me you will put your life on the line.
9mm is far far better option then .22

Shooterz
27-08-2010, 11:42 AM
Sir My question is for HD?

Vik
27-08-2010, 02:11 PM
Sir My question is for HD?

First of all rifle is not for HD/SD. Be it .22 or any other caliber. Those rifles in NBP category
can't be used for SD/HD. NBP is non prohibited bore. You can use GSG5 .22 and than move on
to better weapons. But GSG5 not recommended for SD/HD.

Faisal Aziz
27-08-2010, 03:54 PM
Sir My question is for HD?
Dear Shooterz, The best gun for HD is .12 gauge. U can go for winchester defender 1300 .

Silent killerr
27-08-2010, 06:13 PM
Shooterz, GSG 5 is .22 rifle. If you choose GSG as your self defense weapon, believe me you will put your life on the line.
9mm is far far better option then .22

OK, if you cant use a weapon for self defense (Single person), so how could you use it for home defense(More than 1 persons)?, it is common sense :|

Silent killerr
27-08-2010, 06:16 PM
i think we have discuss this topic a lot, and every member (including me) suggest 12G, so if you wanna go with .22, it is your personal preference. Good luck

Mig
27-08-2010, 08:35 PM
i think we have discuss this topic a lot, and every member (including me) suggest 12G, so if you wanna go with .22, it is your personal preference. Good luck

+1

Shooterz
27-08-2010, 11:36 PM
Thank u SILENT KILLER. I'm with u. I'll go for 12G.

Aquarius
28-08-2010, 12:24 AM
Dear Shooterz, The best gun for HD is .12 gauge. U can go for winchester defender 1300 .

+1 Thats one of the most reliable pumps & the magazine/tube capacity is also fine.

Dr Zakir
28-08-2010, 12:29 AM
12 gauge best option for HD

Omer571
28-08-2010, 01:12 AM
12 guage , by all means

A.Abbas
28-08-2010, 01:15 AM
12 gauge , I'll prefer pump action with short barrel.

Silent killerr
28-08-2010, 10:13 AM
Thank u SILENT KILLER. I'm with u. I'll go for 12G.
Now this is a wise decision. Winchester defender 1300 is very reliable weapon, go for it

Shooterz
29-08-2010, 01:40 PM
I think that its out of my budget yet. I'll bring Hatsan or Maverick Mosseberg. And what about Baikal?

Silent killerr
29-08-2010, 06:01 PM
If you want semi-auto Baikal is very good, and if Pump-action then Hatsan escort.

PUNJTANI5
30-08-2010, 10:23 AM
a short barrelled shotgun .

Shooterz
30-08-2010, 02:26 PM
Is there any Hatsan semi auto?

Silent killerr
30-08-2010, 04:39 PM
yes i saw one at Fazalsons Rawalpindi.

Survivalist
30-08-2010, 09:36 PM
A .357 Revolver would be my choice of HD gun.

Silent killerr
30-08-2010, 09:38 PM
A .357 Revolver would be my choice of HD gun.
.357 is a very good caliber for Self defense, but when it comes to HD, no one can beat 12G

Vik
31-08-2010, 07:29 AM
A .357 Revolver would be my choice of HD gun.
.357 is a very good caliber for Self defense, but when it comes to HD, no one can beat 12G

But proper range/pattern testing must be done. Its not necessary that If we have 12gauge
that Its going to hit the badguy.
If its for HD proper measurement must be taken of the house. As to where the pellets are going to disburse. UNKA PHELAO(disbursement) KIA HUGA.

Silent killerr
31-08-2010, 07:38 AM
Vik bro i am totally agreed with you :)

ACHILLES
31-08-2010, 05:52 PM
Shotguns in Home Defence role are good.

ACHILLES
31-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Also see http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5454

Shooterz
02-09-2010, 02:32 PM
Very informative link.

Agent47
02-09-2010, 06:10 PM
The best shotgun for HD surely has to be a pump action.
Maverick 88 is a very good option for the purpose.
Baikal is a outstanding weapon,but too large for HD.Ideal for hunting!!

Shooterz
04-09-2010, 02:23 PM
Why everyone tell about pump action? If u think about FTE or FTF then I think imported semi auto is reliable, and convenient than pump action, and its also time saving.

Vik
04-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Why everyone tell about pump action? If u think about FTE or FTF then I think imported semi auto is reliable, and convenient than pump action, and its also time saving.

Maybe b/c of safety issue. :)

Rasal.Saleh
04-09-2010, 03:07 PM
@ Shooterz, Sir any weapon kept for HD/SD has to be checked and practised with, Once you get the hang of pumping that shotgun, hopefully you wouldnt be dissappointed. The gun is only as good as the man behind it.
Also, FTF/FTE/misfire in a semi auto in a combat sitution would be harder to clear than a pump.

Regards

Agent47
04-09-2010, 04:38 PM
@ Shooterz.
Let me explain in a bit detail,why a good pump action is recommended for HD:

1st of all the ideal home defense shotgun should consist of a short barreled model, 18- to 22-inches, chambered for 12- or 20-gauge.High quality pump action shotguns offer a distinct advantage over auto in the sense that their operation tends to be mechanically reliable, even under the worst of adverse conditions.There is no sound in the world quite as identifiable or as intimidating as the rhythmic "click-click" of a pump action shotgun being racked. Again, in a home defense situation, the gun owner is cautioned to secure any loaded firearm, including a pump action shotgun, in a responsible manner.A reliable, well made pump action shotgun can usually be purchased at a cost less than a comparable quality handgun. Advantages of the shotgun are threefold. There exists less danger of harming third parties through walls in the event of an errant shot; the potential for inflicting wound trauma to a criminal assailant is maximized, thus halting a violent confrontation quickly; and it is easier to hit one's attacker with a shotgun when compared to a handgun.A superior quality auto represents an acceptable alternative to the pump. The action of the finer models tends to be flawless. As with any autoloader, one must be careful after the initial shot not to inadvertently discharge the firearm.For home defense, however, use 2-3/4-inch shells.Trust me! you cant go wrong with a good quality pump action.Hope this helps.

Oasis
04-09-2010, 06:04 PM
AOA ...

@Agent 47

Very nice explanation, hope help to understand. :)

Thx.

Shooterz
05-09-2010, 02:19 PM
Thanks agent 47 good explanation, actually I like semi auto for HD and for hunting also. Do u prefer any superior quality semi auto shot gun.

Agent47
05-09-2010, 08:56 PM
@shooterz
U r welcome.
well everybody have their own preferences.My personal favorite is the SPAS 12 guage.Benelli m4 is a good choice.check out the beretta tx4 storm,Beretta 391:Beretta's gas operated semi-automatic shotguns are all based on the same action, the 391. Built in a variety of variations, including one that handles the blonky 12 gauge 3.5" magnum shells, this action is obviously quite versatile. Add to that the good looks and reliability that Beretta shotguns are known for, and it sounds like a winning combination. Crossbolt safety is in front of the trigger in the trigger guard, a better location (easier to use) than behind the trigger,Franchi's 612 and 620 semi-autos.Mossberg 935.Remington's 1100 has been around for ages, and it's going strong.Winchester's Super X2 autoloading shotgun is gas-operated,a good piece.At a lower range,baikal 153 though not recommended for HD.Hatsan escort trio (synthetic model)
Hope it is satisfactory!

Shooterz
06-09-2010, 02:31 PM
Satisfactory? Amazing. Thank u sir.

Agent47
06-09-2010, 06:16 PM
@shooterz
u r welcome.

arfat110
20-11-2010, 08:21 PM
for hd go for shotgun

Engineeer
21-11-2010, 07:22 AM
for hd go for shotgun any good not pak made 4 obvious reasons

arfat110
21-11-2010, 01:23 PM
in shotguns go for pumpactions

Khalil
24-11-2010, 05:02 PM
bad luck is everywhere....

Faheem
25-11-2010, 08:42 PM
In my personal opinion 12 gauge is much better than rifle for HD.

I would prefere "Benelli Nova" due to its reliability and reasonable range....

Levan9X19
30-11-2010, 03:46 PM
If you live in countryside rifle is the way to go but if you live in urban area I think shotgun is prefered. distances are close and risk of overpenetration is lower.
a good reliable pump action is a nice solution to home defense. reliable with any ammo including less-lethal, huge firpower and reach up to 25-30 meters wich is absolutely acceptable for defense scenarios.

however police officers in USA found that a .233rem due to its fragmentation is in favt less overpenetrating than some 12 gauge slugs and M4 style carbines are replacing shotguns in patrol cars.
Also another argument to shotguns is that it is possibly less "hostile" weapon I mean it is common associated to defense weapon while rifle especialy semi autio carbines are related as "assault" weapons and this could be a problem in court.

My main HD "assets" are sawn off Stoeger SP312 5+1 pump action shotgun coupled with Cz97 .45ACP pistol

Vik
30-11-2010, 04:54 PM
http://www.pakguns.com/entry.php?4-My-Hobby-and-Guns
For Shotgun(HD) look at the first pic.

PA
01-12-2010, 10:54 PM
If House defense means scaring a thief, then a pistol or a shot gun are both good, but a pistol is more handy.
If House defence means fighting dacoits, then pistol or shot gun put on risk the safety of your family, for safeguarding possessions, better let go possessions.
If House defense mean fighting enemies who are bend to kill you with firearms, both pistol and shot gun are good but again a pistol is more handy, by handy I mean u can always keep a pistol with you where ever u r, but a shot gun is bigger in size and heavy so you cannot carry it all the times and might take a few minutes to grab it from the place you have kept it.
This also explains Self Defense.
In the end I would say the gun (pistol or shot gun) that you feel more at ease to use and the gun you are more adept at is the gun for you for HD or SD.
Type of bullets is a secondary issue for HD or SD.

bestmagician83
03-12-2010, 07:10 PM
12 G Shot gun is the best.......

wittycranium
04-12-2010, 06:29 PM
Dear Shooterz, The best gun for HD is .12 gauge. U can go for winchester defender 1300 .

12ga is best. Winchester Defendor 1300 is one of the most, if not THE most, reliable guns for HD. Best here advice bro.

Almuharib
05-01-2011, 08:34 PM
12GA would be the best option

Syed Rehmat
11-11-2011, 06:34 PM
12gauge pump action!!!!! WOW...
quick to shoot quick to reload...
no other option, for home defence or self defence.

Sturmgewehr
16-11-2011, 11:58 AM
I agree with Mr.Rehmat indeed 12 guage pump actions are reliable and effective for HD.

Ahnab
17-11-2011, 03:49 PM
@Sturmgewehr
Although your real-world namesake would be perfect for HD! StG44 FOR LIFE! :-p

Nazim Sahib
17-11-2011, 05:13 PM
There is no weapon that can beat a pump action shotgun for close quarters.I have and would recomend a Mossberg model 500.
But even any pump action,double barrel or even single barrel would suffice.

Shah Rifat Alam
08-12-2011, 03:34 PM
Dear friends, a .22 is a great weapon provided you know how to use it! A .22 rifle for home defense makes no sense, we don't need range here. A .22 pistol is great, ONE shot in the head with a CCI Stinger HP is all it takes! However, a shotgun is preferable for the area the shot covers and therefore the damage it can do.

Masroor
09-12-2011, 10:14 PM
12 Bore Shot Gun Is the Best Home Defense Wepon. No Match For this.

Birdshooter007
09-12-2011, 10:19 PM
12 Bore Shot Gun Is the Best Home Defense Wepon. No Match For this.
What about 8 Bore and 10 Bore shotguns :rolleyes:

mayorajpoot5
09-12-2011, 10:33 PM
12 G is better then other arms

Mian Jee
11-12-2011, 10:54 PM
Glock 17 with 33 round mag full with HP's + tactical light with laser sight.

I know it's about Rifle or Shotgun but,,,,
I'll always prefer it on my AK & Defender 1300,
day or night.

any opinions ;

Birdshooter007
11-12-2011, 11:04 PM
IMO,
The best weapon for HD is:
8 shot Semi-Auto 12 Gauge shotgun, any of the following: (0,00,000 or 0000)buckshot

Canik
12-12-2011, 12:38 AM
.22 Rifle :o :o ? are you kidding me. it takes at least 10-15 shots on the right place to stop a person :(
.22 is just for fun i mean for target shooting. ;)

12 guage is considered as best for HD, And tube magazine is better so go for it and i think you are a new user so DSA is very good option


12 Bore Shot Gun Is the Best Home Defense Wepon. No Match For this.


these are the best answers.........

Birdshooter007
12-12-2011, 09:53 AM
@ Silent Killer
One shot of a .22lr placed properly is as much as required for killing a BG. The minimal recoil makes it very useful and accurate. And it's not just a 'fun' caliber but for hunting too.
A properly placed shot from a .22 is much better than wild shot from a .44magnum.

Kamranwali
12-12-2011, 10:33 AM
@ Silent Killer
One shot of a .22lr placed properly is as much as required for killing a BG. The minimal recoil makes it very useful and accurate. And it's not just a 'fun' caliber but for hunting too.
A properly placed shot from a .22 is much better than wild shot from a .44magnum.

Salam All,
I wonder why LEAs use these big calibres, when a .22 can be enough..... :D

Ok, on a serious note....there has been a long debate of 9mm vs .45 going on FOREVER between LEA personnel and people concerned with SD/HD. The argument of .45 side is the overpenetrative nature of the 9mm round. This is one time that both 9mm and .45 lobbies would agree, THE .22 IS NOT MEANT FOR HD/SD, PERIOD!!! Yes we all know that a bullet to the head a BG would kill him, but what needs to understood here is that in a situation a normal person will not have the time, luxury or cool to aim and hit the BG with a single shot. Now, what will happen next.... the BG is going to hit back, probably with a .30(in Pakistan). The idea of a big round is so that even if you hit a non vital area, the shot WILL cause damage, and the BG might even decide to run away.

Guys, any one using a .22 for SD/HD, please do not risk yourself or your loved ones because you just wanted to PROVE that a .22 can do the job :)
And yeah, I know that the bullet can kill, but so can a stone if it is used in a proper way....

Birdshooter007
12-12-2011, 10:48 AM
Salam All,
I wonder why LEAs use these big calibres, when a .22 can be enough..... :D

Ok, on a serious note....there has been a long debate of 9mm vs .45 going on FOREVER between LEA personnel and people concerned with SD/HD. The argument of .45 side is the overpenetrative nature of the 9mm round. This is one time that both 9mm and .45 lobbies would agree, THE .22 IS NOT MEANT FOR HD/SD, PERIOD!!! Yes we all know that a bullet to the head a BG would kill him, but what needs to understood here is that in a situation a normal person will not have the time, luxury or cool to aim and hit the BG with a single shot. Now, what will happen next.... the BG is going to hit back, probably with a .30(in Pakistan). The idea of a big round is so that even if you hit a non vital area, the shot WILL cause damage, and the BG might even decide to run away.

Guys, any one using a .22 for SD/HD, please do not risk yourself or your loved ones because you just wanted to PROVE that a .22 can do the job :)
And yeah, I know that the bullet can kill, but so can a stone if it is used in a proper way....
The probability of a stone is much much lesser then that of a .22...... nobody is suggesting anyone to use a .22, just a correction to silent killer's opinion.

Mod edit : Cahuhadry please refrain from discussing Pb Stuff

Faisji
12-12-2011, 11:14 AM
I hope everyone here can remember

"Know your target and what's beyond it"


22LR is not a redundant round when it come to home defense.remember it's your home if your are not able to place yourself at immediate advantage in a defensive position then It's your weakness not the the weapon's

Also defensive shooting is not about matching some FBI report from 20 years ago that said a "average" gunfight is 3 shots.The key word everyone forgets is "AVERAGE"If faced with a treat fire until they stop moving be it 3 or 30 rounds.

Shotguns are not capable of producing magical walls of death that travel in the direction of bad guy they still require skills and shot placement.Also remember the recoil on the gun will most probably take you off target so hitting again might not be possible without realigning the shotgun.

Rifles require proper shot placement otherwise they are not better than clubs.

from personal experience,in a stress situation(life or death) recoils are exxagerated,distances suddenly are garbled,weapons develop "bullet drop syndrome",and you end up firing full mags without actually scoring vital hits because targets are not standing still like the ones at the gun club/farmhouse.in these situations i rather have a high cap handgun with controllable recoil with at least 1 extra mags.

Kamranwali
12-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Lets, get back on topic.... since semi auto and auto rifles are PB in Pakistan, the best choice for HD/SD would be a pump action shotgun, IMHO, because a semi auto shotgun, even if using the most reliable one, does have a certain probability of jamming on you. Depending on your pocket I would recommend a DSA pump action, any one of the turkish brands available(no personal experience but people have lots of good things to say abt them), Remington 870, Winchester 1300 or a Mossberg.
Also, if living in urban areas, one of the issues of using a rifle would be the ricochet when using in a confined space.

This is just my opinion.

Regards.

P.S. +1 Faisji Bro.

Mode Edit : PB discussion not allowed bro , Lines removed from post

Canik
12-12-2011, 11:31 AM
mods where are you?

Birdshooter007
12-12-2011, 11:31 AM
My vote goes to newer Semi-Autos they are as reliable as PA's!

Kamranwali
12-12-2011, 11:49 AM
My vote goes to newer Semi-Autos they are as reliable as PA's!

Bro, I most respectfully disagree..... even if its a one in a million chance, I wont take it...... but this is a free country, in the end you buy what you chose. :)

Regards.

Canik
12-12-2011, 11:57 AM
@Chauhadry Bro..... :)
You're venturing into PB territory...... because then I can say that a 7.62x51 is better than a 7.62x39(in terms of stopping power).....:)

Lets, get back on topic.... since semi auto and auto rifles are PB in Pakistan, the best choice for HD/SD would be a pump action shotgun, IMHO, because a semi auto shotgun, even if using the most reliable one, does have a certain probability of jamming on you. Depending on your pocket I would recommend a DSA pump action, any one of the turkish brands available(no personal experience but people have lots of good things to say abt them), Remington 870, Winchester 1300 or a Mossberg.
Also, if living in urban areas, one of the issues of using a rifle would be the ricochet when using in a confined space.

This is just my opinion.

Regards.

P.S. +1 Faisji Bro.


Bro, I most respectfully disagree..... even if its a one in a million chance, I wont take it...... but this is a free country, in the end you buy what you chose. :)

Regards.


1) you are right best weapon for home defense pump action
2) recommendation pump is very good
3) yes its a free country (democracy) do what you want. haha hhaa lolz......

Avais
12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
I believe shot gun of any kind as it enables you very easy handling and effective usage results.

Naveed_pk
12-12-2011, 12:55 PM
Canik wrote :

mods where are you?

@ Canik Bro , we are always available just Push the report button to "Call" us :)


Regards

Canik
12-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Canik wrote :


@ Canik Bro , we are always available just Push the report button to "Call" us :)


Regards

ok and thanks.
glad to see the removal of prohibited post.

Regards

Kamranwali
12-12-2011, 02:39 PM
Mode Edit : PB discussion not allowed bro , Lines removed from post
Thanks for intervening Naveed Bro, I was wondering why mods didn't stop it already, now I know I should have hit the report button :D My bad...

Naveed_pk
12-12-2011, 03:03 PM
@ Kamran bro sometimes threads skip out of mod eyes too , at that time we need members to call us where they think a "Mod job" is need . Just push the triangle shape "report" button under each and every post . :)

regards

Mr.khan
12-12-2011, 07:12 PM
in my openion shotgun is the best ,it is so easy to handle

Birdshooter007
12-12-2011, 07:44 PM
in my openion shotgun is the best ,it is so easy to handle
+1
Wise Choice.

Trajan
12-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Bro, I most respectfully disagree..... even if its a one in a million chance, I wont take it...... but this is a free country, in the end you buy what you chose. :)

Regards.

Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.

Birdshooter007
12-12-2011, 08:35 PM
Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.
Thanks for the nice info, my love for semi-autos is increasing :)
But choice is yours as this is a democratic country. :lol:

Kamranwali
12-12-2011, 10:33 PM
Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.

Salam Trajan Bro,
Ok, consider this, you have a shotgun shouldered in a situation. You press the trigger, but the round fails to ignite..... now in a semi auto, you have to take your one of your hands(in most cases your trigger hand) and pull back to load a new round, but with the pump action, your front hand is already ON the action of the bolt, all you have to do is pull back, push back and we're ready.
Case 2, you fire a round but round fails to eject, with the shell caught in your action, you again have to take one of your hands off the normal position and use force to clear the shell. With a pump action, you can exert more force just because of the posture you're in.
Case 3, you shoot, the case eject but the gun fails to feed the round. Once again the outcome should be predictable :)

The second thing that you pointed out of pump action guns jamming, but like you said they were local guns, the materials and engineering principles of production in these are mostly flawed(even more specifically, the ones that jam). That's why a GOOD pump action is recommended. I personally have used the DSA Shooter, a Remington 870 and a Winchester 1300. No issues whatsoever.

All this said, I am not saying that semi autos will ALWAYS jam, just that the probability of one jamming is higher(due to all the moving parts involved) than that of a pump action. Even a pump action can malfunction, just the probability is lower. Therefore I think the role of a semi auto is more in a hunt or on a range, where a failure can be tolerated, but in a SD situation, well I'll just leave it your imagination. :)


Regards.

Canik
12-12-2011, 10:59 PM
Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.


Salam Trajan Bro,
Ok, consider this, you have a shotgun shouldered in a situation. You press the trigger, but the round fails to ignite..... now in a semi auto, you have to take your one of your hands(in most cases your trigger hand) and pull back to load a new round, but with the pump action, your front hand is already ON the action of the bolt, all you have to do is pull back, push back and we're ready.
Case 2, you fire a round but round fails to eject, with the shell caught in your action, you again have to take one of your hands off the normal position and use force to clear the shell. With a pump action, you can exert more force just because of the posture you're in.
Case 3, you shoot, the case eject but the gun fails to feed the round. Once again the outcome should be predictable :)

The second thing that you pointed out of pump action guns jamming, but like you said they were local guns, the materials and engineering principles of production in these are mostly flawed(even more specifically, the ones that jam). That's why a GOOD pump action is recommended. I personally have used the DSA Shooter, a Remington 870 and a Winchester 1300. No issues whatsoever.

All this said, I am not saying that semi autos will ALWAYS jam, just that the probability of one jamming is higher(due to all the moving parts involved) than that of a pump action. Even a pump action can malfunction, just the probability is lower. Therefore I think the role of a semi auto is more in a hunt or on a range, where a failure can be tolerated, but in a SD situation, well I'll just leave it your imagination. :)


Regards.


Dear brothers.
Both pump action and semi autos are best.
Just like manual and automatic gear transfers like cars.
Drive the manual as what you want, gear shifting is in your hand to boost or down the car.
And on auto you have no options but to wait when the cars automatically shifts gear from down to up and up to down.

As far as HD purpose pump is excellent and semi autos are good

And one thing everybody thinks in his own style. Some feel comfortable to use pump and others semi autos. But for higher risk involve in fighting with robbers or bad guys pump is best due to minimum time of thinking and fighting.
Use pump.

Chuk chuck dhoooz, chuck chuck dhooz. Wow the sound is enough to scared

Faisji
13-12-2011, 07:36 AM
Salam Trajan Bro,
Ok, consider this, you have a shotgun shouldered in a situation. You press the trigger, but the round fails to ignite..... now in a semi auto, you have to take your one of your hands(in most cases your trigger hand) and pull back to load a new round, but with the pump action, your front hand is already ON the action of the bolt, all you have to do is pull back, push back and we're ready.
Case 2, you fire a round but round fails to eject, with the shell caught in your action, you again have to take one of your hands off the normal position and use force to clear the shell. With a pump action, you can exert more force just because of the posture you're in.
Case 3, you shoot, the case eject but the gun fails to feed the round. Once again the outcome should be predictable :)

The second thing that you pointed out of pump action guns jamming, but like you said they were local guns, the materials and engineering principles of production in these are mostly flawed(even more specifically, the ones that jam). That's why a GOOD pump action is recommended. I personally have used the DSA Shooter, a Remington 870 and a Winchester 1300. No issues whatsoever.

All this said, I am not saying that semi autos will ALWAYS jam, just that the probability of one jamming is higher(due to all the moving parts involved) than that of a pump action. Even a pump action can malfunction, just the probability is lower. Therefore I think the role of a semi auto is more in a hunt or on a range, where a failure can be tolerated, but in a SD situation, well I'll just leave it your imagination. :)


Regards.

Sounds like someone needs to practice malfunction clearances a bit more. Also that's why you never rely on just one weapon in a HD and even in SD situation.

Kamranwali
13-12-2011, 10:01 AM
Sounds like someone needs to practice malfunction clearances a bit more. Also that's why you never rely on just one weapon in a HD and even in SD situation.

Salam All,
Faisji Bro, I agree on the second point. Ideally I will always want to keep a good reliable handgun along with the shotgun.
Abt the first point well, I have seen your videos :), and let me tell you that not everyone practices like you. Yes, practice will definitely make the clearance more Natural, but I am saying that in a high stress situation clearing of a malfunction in a pump is easier than that of a Semi auto (for 'Common Joe' users, like myself)
Since I am a firearm enthusiast as well (probably not as much as your good self :) ), I would NEVER mind a good tactical Semi auto :D. But in a situation, I'll still reach for my good ol' pump. Maybe thats just because of the confidence I have in this weapon.....

Disclaimer: This is just the way I think guys, your mileage may vary :D

Regards.

Nazim Sahib
13-12-2011, 12:05 PM
I had a chance of getting a good semi auto for HD but went for a pump action instead.The idea of HD is Close quarters combat and that isnt a situation where you would want a Jam.For HD i would even prefer a double barrel to a semi auto.
I have a mossberg model 500 and let me tell you its chances of jamming are almost non existant if applied and used properly..The only way it would ever jam is if it is pumped at a very wrong sort of angle which cant happen,other then that of course it would Jam if parts started breaking.
I have heard of quite a few semi auto shotguns which Jam if fed WAH ammo whereas a pump action would take everything you feed it.

Masroor
15-12-2011, 10:48 AM
Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.

Dear I m Agree with u.

Faisji
15-12-2011, 11:03 AM
Salam All,
but I am saying that in a high stress situation clearing of a malfunction in a pump is easier than that of a Semi auto

Regards.
A Reality check


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zPBS6MoVbc

Never take others word for it.Always Practice with your weapon at extreme disadvantage and become proficient .That way when it matters it will not be shock to you.Clearing malfunctions should be second nature like breathing for anyone who relies on a particular weapon platform for HD or SD

Black Commando
31-03-2012, 08:38 AM
I will prefer 12 G for HD.
I have both the guns .22 Zastavia made and 12 Guage ak74 shape Pakmade but i depend on 12 guage

Ameer
31-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Its Shot-Gun whether magizine feeded or not

mythical
07-08-2012, 12:13 AM
A rifle shaped magzine fed 12 gauge is literally a rifle visually like the Saiga-12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12)

will It will be on a rifle licence or shotgun licence ?

Enigmatic Desires
07-08-2012, 03:15 AM
A rifle shaped magzine fed 12 gauge is literally a rifle visually like the Saiga-12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12)

will It will be on a rifle licence or shotgun licence ?

I had 1 of those.. Its a shot gun /& shotguns r registered on shotgun lic

mythical
07-08-2012, 04:07 AM
Wiki says
The Saiga-12 is a 12-gauge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)) combat shotgun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_shotgun)
Legal status
In Russia this shotgun can be relatively simply obtained, requiring only a "smoothbore-gun license" (which is relatively easy to obtain, compared to a "rifle license" that requires a five-year period of owning a smoothbore gun and a hunting permit)
In the US state of California, as configured from the factory, it can be classified as an "assault weapon", as it is a semiautomatic shotgun with the ability to accept a detachable magazine. However, if a magazine lock that only allows the magazine to be removed by use of a tool is installed, it is no longer classified as such, as its previously detachable magazine is then rendered a fixed magazine.

i don't think magazine (detachable/fixed) classification has yet entered the minds of policy makers here

eminentpk
18-05-2013, 11:09 PM
ok. here i am. an old pakgun member, who made a mistake of just reading than writing, i have used and owned .22lr rifles, and 12 gauge one too. I think i am good at aiming, firing, using, cleaning, and maintaining. But to my believe. I was shocked with the performance of my .22lr types. I read all the comments and posts of this thread. I wondered why anyone didnt try the hollow point of .22lr at a hunting or a sd level? i am a proud user of .22lr hollow point bullets. A guy once jumped into my house, my dog teared him up and then ran away. Thnx to my dog, he"s rottwieler. ( now i live in a farm house in lahore near raiwind road). I just got up, brushed my teeth, watched out of the window, which i have a habbit of watching and found, 4 guys sitting on the shade of a tree. I was alarmed. I just kept watching them, cos of tinted windows, somehow they couldnt watchme back and i was. However, this kept on carrying on and i kept on watching on their moves, a guy with another bike handed over something to them, wierd situation with a wierd gesture of visitors, i send my gaurd loaded, and asked him to enquire the issue, the guys just said they are just out of petrol and waiting for their friend to refuel them. I was was curious to know. I was all ready to intercept these crooks when something caught my mind. A women with a push chair was walking around on another street near by with a kid on the push chair when the stray dogs started barking at her, i got alarmed and immediately moved my aim, the stray dogs were were mad or i dont know wht, they were determined to attack her, immediately i went down, i ran down to her, ignoring what is happened at my end the basturds were still there, but i ran out and shot the 4 dogs at 15 meter distance max. they were dead as stone. within seconds, those guys who were sitting for something infront of my home, kicked their bikes and ran away. Thats a real life story i experienced.

eminentpk
18-05-2013, 11:14 PM
.22lr is a good gun for sd as long you dont intend to kill someone. Infact i believe .22lr are the more than pb, cos when they hurt, they make sure they take u to death. Google search and forum searches say. .22lr is made to kill. people have died after 4 months of being shot cos of no reason. .22lr is a mysterious round. Beware.

sadatpk
19-05-2013, 07:51 PM
Br let me say we must have both,rifle and shot gun along with revolver and some pistols,why to choose only one??????????
sir eminentpk .22 is gorgious bore and no dout it is multipurpose and a good option for civilians (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?196-eminentpk)

gun_craze
23-02-2014, 08:35 PM
AoA, loged in after a longgg time. Need advice to buy a shotgun for HD. Also pls suggest which one is better pump action or auto-loader? My budget is 50~60K. Thanks.

colt 1911
24-02-2014, 12:17 AM
AoA, loged in after a longgg time. Need advice to buy a shotgun for HD. Also pls suggest which one is better pump action or auto-loader? My budget is 50~60K. Thanks.

SA is faster than PA but one can become reasonably fast with a PA with practice. the chances of FTF(failure to feed) and FTE are lesser in a PA shotgun.so it all boils down to ones own preference. in your budget you can have baikal mp153 and a few models of turkish shotuns.

gun_craze
24-02-2014, 10:01 PM
Thanks colt1911. Could you also pls recommend any shop for this purchase?

Surg.Ray
24-02-2014, 10:08 PM
How about a Hatsan Escort combo semiauto? The shorter barrel will also fire slugs.

Aquarius
24-02-2014, 10:24 PM
Your first HD weapon should always be a good quality Pump Action.

colt 1911
24-02-2014, 11:42 PM
Thanks colt1911. Could you also pls recommend any shop for this purchase?

bro i dont know much about lahore market but you can check a few shotguns at National Traders

Ashes
25-02-2014, 09:45 AM
SA is faster than PA but one can become reasonably fast with a PA with practice. the chances of FTF(failure to feed) and FTE are lesser in a PA shotgun.so it all boils down to ones own preference. in your budget you can have baikal mp153 and a few models of turkish shotuns.

my first choice for HD (and hopefully my last) was and will always be a Pump Action... I too was told that SAs are faster etc but i practiced a lot.

not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I have just won the first position in a very intense "Extreme Shotgun Challenge" held over the past weekend. there were approx 15 participants and only 2 were using Pump Actions; the rest were all SemiAutos... however the first and third prize went to PA users ;)

the point is, what's faster and easier and whatnot only depends on how familiar you grow with your gun and how much you practice and learn from a good instructor :)

Enigmatic Desires
25-02-2014, 10:00 AM
Yes.. But U r naturally good with weapons as it is. Better overall hand eye co-ordination instinctive alignment of the sights.

Me I fumble with Pumps.

Now an SA woud make life so much easier. I simply point and shoot.

Ashes
25-02-2014, 10:20 AM
Yes.. But U r naturally good with weapons as it is. Better overall hand eye co-ordination instinctive alignment of the sights.

Me I fumble with Pumps.

Now an SA woud make life so much easier. I simply point and shoot.

wasn't always boss... never been good at any sport (requiring eye-hand coordination) other than a game of Chess or Snooker (only indoor stuff) :)

May 2013 was when i first held a pistol in my hands and was trembling after the first 6 rounds and had to sit down! :D

was equally apprehensive about buying a shottie since I had "heard" it has nasty recoil... first few shots and i needed Feldene massages on my shoulder for 3 days after!

couldn't shoot straight nor balance either weapons... that was 10 months ago; so practice is all that is needed :D

Enigmatic Desires
25-02-2014, 10:29 AM
Yes.. u right.. I have been practising for almost 4 years. And now I finaly Finaly got a round on paper . at 10 yards with a 9mm.. And it was my own target not my neighbours!!! I am a happy man.

Ashes
25-02-2014, 10:52 AM
Yes.. u right.. I have been practising for almost 4 years. And now I finaly Finaly got a round on paper . at 10 yards with a 9mm.. And it was my own target not my neighbours!!! I am a happy man.

hmmm, in the event where one has difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time, I can't comment! :D hahahah

Come on man, seriously how much have you practiced?? this is one heck of a perishable skill and you take breaks of 1-2 months in between a session; of course this will happen... :)

Ashes
25-02-2014, 11:13 AM
yo, how about we go together on a more frequent basis??

Enigmatic Desires
25-02-2014, 12:31 PM
yo, how about we go together on a more frequent basis??

Yes sure.

I think I will 'upgrade' to a shottie. Kind of difficult to miss a man sized paper target at 10 yards with a 9 round shot.

Enigmatic Desires
25-02-2014, 12:36 PM
hmmm, in the event where one has difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time, I can't comment! :D hahahah

Come on man, seriously how much have you practiced?? this is one heck of a perishable skill and you take breaks of 1-2 months in between a session; of course this will happen... :)

In order for a skill to Parish.. Said skill has to be 'acquired' first. :(

I have shot everything from a .22 lr to the G3 on full auto. And apart from my revolver I have yet to be accurate in anything I shoot.

Ooo great Guru I would appreciate your help.

Ashes
25-02-2014, 02:43 PM
In order for a skill to Parish.. Said skill has to be 'acquired' first. :(

and that is only possible with practice :)


I have shot everything from a .22 lr to the G3 on full auto. And apart from my revolver I have yet to be accurate in anything I shoot.

thats coz you shoot everything and anything, and then move on instead of sticking to just one or two ;) (Happy New Year style?) :D

Enigmatic Desires
25-02-2014, 03:44 PM
and that is only possible with practice :)



thats coz you shoot everything and anything, and then move on instead of sticking to just one or two ;) (Happy New Year style?) :D

Yes.. U r right.. Soo I have been sticking to the 9mm past few weeks .. and finally managed that hit on paper.

Ashes
25-02-2014, 05:16 PM
Yes.. U r right.. Soo I have been sticking to the 9mm past few weeks .. and finally managed that hit on paper.

there you go then! :)

colt 1911
26-02-2014, 01:12 AM
my first choice for HD (and hopefully my last) was and will always be a Pump Action... I too was told that SAs are faster etc but i practiced a lot.

not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I have just won the first position in a very intense "Extreme Shotgun Challenge" held over the past weekend. there were approx 15 participants and only 2 were using Pump Actions; the rest were all SemiAutos... however the first and third prize went to PA users ;)

the point is, what's faster and easier and whatnot only depends on how familiar you grow with your gun and how much you practice and learn from a good instructor :)

congrats on winning the competition. which PA did you use?

Ashes
26-02-2014, 10:16 AM
congrats on winning the competition. which PA did you use?

thank you sir!

I have a Jaguar Marine Guard (AKA Hatsan) which i'm planning to change for a better weapon; maybe a Mossberg or Winchester.

sufian shahid
26-02-2014, 02:08 PM
Your first HD weapon should always be a good quality Pump Action.

I feel the magazine fed shotguns are definitely way superior in terms of the reloading aspect.

sufian shahid
26-02-2014, 02:09 PM
AoA, loged in after a longgg time. Need advice to buy a shotgun for HD. Also pls suggest which one is better pump action or auto-loader? My budget is 50~60K. Thanks.

MKA 1919 is a good option.

sufian shahid
26-02-2014, 02:11 PM
Yes.. But U r naturally good with weapons as it is. Better overall hand eye co-ordination instinctive alignment of the sights.

Me I fumble with Pumps.

Now an SA woud make life so much easier. I simply point and shoot.

I have kept a pump action previously, and now I have a MKA 1919 with a 10 round magazine. I feel a lot more ready to confront any bad guy now.

sufian shahid
26-02-2014, 02:14 PM
Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.

I have similar experience with a PA.

Enigmatic Desires
26-02-2014, 02:22 PM
I have kept a pump action previously, and now I have a MKA 1919 with a 10 round magazine. I feel a lot more ready to confront any bad guy now.


Thats a good option The M1919 loaded with double nought buck shot. Popularly called SG here.

Ashes
27-02-2014, 05:19 PM
http://www.pakguns.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Trajan http://www.pakguns.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.php?p=230937#post230937)

Shotguns over rifles anyday for HD. but dont' Semi-autos' have the bolt to deal w/ any possible jams?
I have seen locally made pump actions jam left right and center when they are pumped at a certain angle. If you can afford it , get the best and most reliable weapon you can afford.



the point is without practice, no trouble shooting device will work :)

as a mechanism, it is established that the simplicity and fewer parts of a PA make it more reliable, and easy to disassemble/clean etc too.

As for locally-made PAs, locally made anything will do just that :) whether you get a PA, SA or mag-fed; unless it's a good make and model, issues are inevitable.

but of course, in the end it's all about personal preferences... when we fall for something, we tend to defend it blindly ;)

Enigmatic Desires
27-02-2014, 11:37 PM
the point is without practice, no trouble shooting device will work :)

as a mechanism, it is established that the simplicity and fewer parts of a PA make it more reliable, and easy to disassemble/clean etc too.

As for locally-made PAs, locally made anything will do just that :) whether you get a PA, SA or mag-fed; unless it's a good make and model, issues are inevitable.

but of course, in the end it's all about personal preferences... when we fall for something, we tend to defend it blindly ;)

My solution is simpler. Get licences for both!

hmd
28-02-2014, 12:34 AM
My solution is simpler. Get licences for both!
I like your solution bro .

gun_craze
28-02-2014, 10:22 PM
Thats a good option The M1919 loaded with double nought buck shot. Popularly called SG here.

I have seen M1919 yesterday and got impressed with its heavy looks. BTW, what about M1919 performance especially FTF or FTE caz I am very much interested to buy M1919 due to its heavy looks.

Enigmatic Desires
03-03-2014, 09:35 AM
I have seen M1919 yesterday and got impressed with its heavy looks. BTW, what about M1919 performance especially FTF or FTE caz I am very much interested to buy M1919 due to its heavy looks.

Its an SD weapon not a hunting one. So don't expect it to function well with anything other then SG and other brands of buckshot. And yes u need to break her in for around a 100 shots or so before she will perform flawlessly

gun_craze
03-03-2014, 10:19 PM
Its an SD weapon not a hunting one. So don't expect it to function well with anything other then SG and other brands of buckshot. And yes u need to break her in for around a 100 shots or so before she will perform flawlessly

Thanks Enigmatic Desires for explanation, but since this would be my 1st shot gun therefore I don't know about the ammo types. I believe SG mean slug and also pls recommend the appropriate ammo for HD keeping in view the MKA1919.
Lastly, pls also explain why this gun needs 100 rounds to perform flawlessly and what kind of flaws she could have? Experts' advice will be highly appreciated :)

Aquarius
04-03-2014, 04:40 AM
A good quality Pump Action like winnie or mossy is best for HD, however many new Semi Autos are also quite reliable to be used for HD.. don't know about MKA1919 but Vepr & Saiga are quite reliable.

Enigmatic Desires
04-03-2014, 10:26 AM
Thanks Enigmatic Desires for explanation, but since this would be my 1st shot gun therefore I don't know about the ammo types. I believe SG mean slug and also pls recommend the appropriate ammo for HD keeping in view the MKA1919.
Lastly, pls also explain why this gun needs 100 rounds to perform flawlessly and what kind of flaws she could have? Experts' advice will be highly appreciated :)


No she can handle slugs. But SG is buck shot not a slug round. SG has 9 pallet shot load (if I recollect correctly) While a slug has only one. a big mean hunk of metal.

These are typically more powerful then lighter loads such as #s 4 to 9. The more powerful the load the easier it will cycle in a semi auto. ALL defense weapons should be tried at least a hundred times before U can trust your life wiht em. In the case of the M1919. It needs to be fired to break her in and smoothen the action. Till it becomes flawless. Most people dont know that which is why U will find a lot fo used M1919 in hte market.

gun_craze
05-03-2014, 10:24 PM
Thanks a lot. Will get back to you soon after the purchase :)

Skeeter60
06-03-2014, 02:53 PM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?

A shot gun is deadly even in untrained hands.
How ever no one keeps a loaded shot gun next to him in his house. When ever the decoits come they come without warning, suddenly through the kitchen or over a wall or by keeping a gun on the head of a house or family member and the first time one learns the dacoits are in your house is when you see a gun barrel pointed at you.
A shotgun cannot be kept loaded or handy at home. A pistol on your body, belt holster or pocket or stuck to a magnet under a bed side table or your favourite piece of furniture will give you an oppurtunity.

Ashes
06-03-2014, 03:31 PM
A shot gun is deadly even in untrained hands.

this is a huge myth :)

A shotgun needs as much aiming capability as a handgun... and contrary to popular belief, not always does a single shot prove to be a man-stopper.

Imtiaz Shah
06-03-2014, 04:14 PM
A shot gun is deadly even in untrained hands.
How ever no one keeps a loaded shot gun next to him in his house. When ever the decoits come they come without warning, suddenly through the kitchen or over a wall or by keeping a gun on the head of a house or family member and the first time one learns the dacoits are in your house is when you see a gun barrel pointed at you.
A shotgun cannot be kept loaded or handy at home. A pistol on your body, belt holster or pocket or stuck to a magnet under a bed side table or your favourite piece of furniture will give you an opportunity.

A rifle is a No No for HD (over-penetrative round and too long a weapon for cramped spaces indoors).
Short-barrel pump or SA shotgun with SG shells can be a choice. But, shots/slugs can do unacceptable damage to the home you are defending. Indoors flash and noise can be deafening and disorienting for the defender. Also, unwieldy, longish weapon which may be snatched by attacker in confined spaces. Finally, you cannot answer every door-bell with a shotgun in hand, plainly visible.
Like a rifle, shotgun also needs use of two hands. You may be needing one hand to open/close doors, gather family etc.
For HD the only way to go is a handgun. One may super-carry a handgun when moving within home.
I know, this goes against conventional wisdom, nevertheless some HD consultants are now advocating handguns over shotguns.
All above is from the internet sources, I am converted.

Ashes
10-03-2014, 10:15 AM
A rifle is a No No for HD (over-penetrative round and too long a weapon for cramped spaces indoors).
Short-barrel pump or SA shotgun with SG shells can be a choice. But, shots/slugs can do unacceptable damage to the home you are defending. Indoors flash and noise can be deafening and disorienting for the defender. Also, unwieldy, longish weapon which may be snatched by attacker in confined spaces. Finally, you cannot answer every door-bell with a shotgun in hand, plainly visible.
Like a rifle, shotgun also needs use of two hands. You may be needing one hand to open/close doors, gather family etc.
For HD the only way to go is a handgun. One may super-carry a handgun when moving within home.
I know, this goes against conventional wisdom, nevertheless some HD consultants are now advocating handguns over shotguns.
All above is from the internet sources, I am converted.

+1... very well summarized.

these are the reasons I've put away my shottie cleaned & lubed in it's case under the bed :)

The house is now covered by 4 strategically placed handguns where only my wife and I can reach.

Topak
10-03-2014, 12:01 PM
for HD, shot gun is the best solution.
I have used all four weapons in such situation ie, Hand Gun, An all time famous PB, a semi auto shotgun and pump action.
as my experience (totally mine you may differ) semi auto shotgun for a novice is best choice, as during such tense situation if you couldnt pump the gun correctly(with loud heart beat and trembling hands :) ) , shells will stuck and gun will give FTE and FTF.

Ashes
10-03-2014, 01:52 PM
for HD, shot gun is the best solution.
I have used all four weapons in such situation ie, Hand Gun, An all time famous PB, a semi auto shotgun and pump action.
as my experience (totally mine you may differ) semi auto shotgun for a novice is best choice, as during such tense situation if you couldn't pump the gun correctly(with loud heart beat and trembling hands :) ) , shells will stuck and gun will give FTE and FTF.

Topak Zama Kanoon Sirjee!! :D

May God protect you and yours from all sorts of evil and may you never again have to use a gun against invaders etc.

I respect your opininion and choice of shotgun for HD, and agree that it also depends on how familiar we are with firearms. A newly acquired handgun in the hands of a novice will surely be more of a liability rather than a means of protection.

I have experienced the surge of adrenaline and trembling hands and weak knees that come with a nasty situation and can fully understand how difficult it can be to even think clearly, let alone operate a firearm! :)

however, with proper practice - both dry and wet - I would rather opt for a handgun as a primary HD weapon, keeping the shottie as backup. (I just love my house and walls and furniture too much to do otherwise) ;)

shahroze
10-03-2014, 02:38 PM
For bunglows and bigger house a shotgun will suffice for apartments a pistol will do just fine. No ?

Ashes
10-03-2014, 03:12 PM
For bunglows and bigger house a shotgun will suffice for apartments a pistol will do just fine. No ?

No......... :)

shahroze
10-03-2014, 07:19 PM
why...... ?

Ashes
11-03-2014, 08:37 AM
why...... ?

well unless someone lives on a few acres and his house has only huge halls with no doorways and no corridors, then sure... otherwise, whether you live in a big house or a small apartment, the structure is more or less the same; human-size :)

So the size of the house hardly matters.

J.Durrani
13-04-2014, 09:45 PM
Double-barrel shotguns and pump-action are best for those who are not good at accuracy. So pump actions are always as a defenders.

D3AD!
19-08-2014, 01:54 PM
Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?
brother the thing which you are used to and you can control easily , the thing with which you are compatible is the best wether shotgun or rifle it depends upon you
if you are a novice and are planing to buy a weapon for firs time then i will prefer rifle overshot gun for multiple reasons
1. rifles give less recoil
2. rifles have vast modifying options
3. most important rifles gives you more rang even .22lr in rifle can go beyond 200meter shot gun's shoot loose trajectory and lethality very quickly they can't make beyond 50meters hardly 60 if you are not using slugs, slugs can be effective to 150-200 not much sure about them since never fired one but they are pretty expensive to fire. i think 150/piece or like 200 somehting per piece.......

D3AD!
19-08-2014, 01:57 PM
Double-barrel shotguns and pump-action are best for those who are not good at accuracy. So pump actions are always as a defenders.

no brother we mistakenly assume that with shot gun we don't have to aim properly , but thats not true specialy at 15 - 25 yards i experianced it myself with buckshots and birdshots

Aquarius
19-08-2014, 11:54 PM
no brother we mistakenly assume that with shot gun we don't have to aim properly , but thats not true specialy at 15 - 25 yards i experianced it myself with buckshots and birdshots
Thats great @D3AD.. keep it up & keep your extraordinary knowledge coming.

hmd
20-08-2014, 12:29 AM
In my opinion I think a handgun with a light is a very good option and a shot gun for back up . I have personally defended my home more then couple of time with a pistol .

Fudgepacker
20-08-2014, 03:18 AM
Thats great @D3AD.. keep it up & keep your extraordinary knowledge coming.
Lmao! :bounce:
Bro, it's like I thought it, and then you typed it :lol:


Seriously though D3, if you haven't already, please read post #6530...
http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.php?3101-Price-and-Availbility-Thread/page327

FA226
20-08-2014, 04:50 AM
A shotgun with a flash light attached and loaded with buck shots and a hand gun as a side arm.and yes one has to aim a shot gun properly if the distance is less then 15yards but for 15 to 25 yards it gives you a good spread the spread is roughly 1" per yard.

D3AD!
20-08-2014, 03:15 PM
Thats great @D3AD.. keep it up & keep your extraordinary knowledge coming.

brother if something is wrong with my opinion then why don't you correct it simply and make it less complex for all of us....

1stranger
20-08-2014, 03:18 PM
brother if something is wrong with my opinion then why don't you correct it simply and make it less complex for all of us....

Agreed brother +1!!!!!!

D3AD!
20-08-2014, 03:18 PM
Lmao! :bounce:
Bro, it's like I thought it, and then you typed it :lol:


Seriously though D3, if you haven't already, please read post #6530...
http://www.pakguns.com/showthread.php?3101-Price-and-Availbility-Thread/page327

And Fudgepacker bro seriously i thought you were a nice guy. But now i think that i need to Re-think

D3AD!
20-08-2014, 03:21 PM
Agreed brother +1!!!!!!

thank you brother

Asd1976
20-08-2014, 03:30 PM
no brother we mistakenly assume that with shot gun we don't have to aim properly , but thats not true specialy at 15 - 25 yards i experianced it myself with buckshots and birdshots

D3AD sounds quite logical...........
seems like you have some great experience with guns,
would you mind sharing some wiht us, especually for the benift of novices like me, such which kind of guns you have owned/used, which one is you fav and why.

Imtiaz Shah
20-08-2014, 04:59 PM
I have personally defended my home more then couple of time with a pistol .
Change residence Sir ! I shudder to think of possibility of even one home invasion !

ajmal virk
20-08-2014, 05:39 PM
I will always prefer a double barrel shotgun that too with timmed barrels because second fire option of double is awesome no issue of pumping etc.

D3AD!
20-08-2014, 06:57 PM
D3AD sounds quite logical...........
seems like you have some great experience with guns,
would you mind sharing some wiht us, especually for the benift of novices like me, such which kind of guns you have owned/used, which one is you fav and why.

bro personaly i owned nothing my grandpa left me a vintage shotgun i experianced my father's cz75 , we have a 7mm hunting rifle at home a gift to my pa a wasted Norinco 7.62x25 just, i usually go out with my friends at one of my friend's farm house and that is my academy my world where i experiace there rifles and they use ours kind of sharing u say, this is from where i got all what i share here, i have no special trainers no particular training just observance and guide from my friends and thats it. my favrouit list is too big to post here, like all gun enthusists but what i love extremly are Macmillian Tac -300 or 7mm versions and HK417
how ever currently i have some money and i am thinking of buying some fancy 7.62x25 pistol and a .223 rifle i am confused on this bcz i hvnt decided it yet wether to go for AR-platform or AK personaly i am leaning towards AK till now for multiple reasons thats totally another topic and considoring molot vepr in .223, unfortunatly i am having some issues with my ears and currently for temporary time i have giveup on shooting but i will be back when i will get some good hearing protection and proper shooting gogles,
i will advice all nvoices here that Guns are not something funny always play safe don't risk your and other people life and go out and practice smthing, but with proper protection as health concerns are always first , get yourself a hearing protection and some nice shooting gogles rather than buying a gun first your ears and eyes are not going to return once lost... on other hand you will have whole life for learning guns, and if somebody is extra health concerning he can also buy "Kevlar gloves" for himself this can protect his hands in case of gun "Kaboom" kaboom is a lay man's word used to define an accidential gun blast due to various reasons related to Gun failures and inapproprate ammo,
thats all my brother,,,,

FA226
20-08-2014, 06:59 PM
for hd i use vepr 12 with 3 mags full of sg and a cz sp01 phanton with 4 extra mags as back up weapon.

hmd
20-08-2014, 07:31 PM
Change residence Sir ! I shudder to think of possibility of even one home invasion !
Hahaha yeah bro already did that long time back .

hmd
20-08-2014, 07:36 PM
for hd i use vepr 12 with 3 mags full of sg and a cz sp01 phanton with 4 extra mags as back up weapon.
This is perfect I also have the same setup instead of Vepr I have Beneli Tactical with SG .

seeker
20-08-2014, 08:26 PM
For bunglows and bigger house a shotgun will suffice for apartments a pistol will do just fine. No ?

yes and no... Actually of all the expert members here ,only u had it right but let me phrase it correctly for you .. for out of the living space(meaning in open air like roof .garden or balcony ) in bunglows ,bigger homes and even in small apartments a shotgun is best of the best even better than an ak47:) ,, but for inside the house ,in closed rooms its worst than a knife ,actually a knife is better than a shotgun inside the house ,,,, for inside the house the best option is a bullpup in .22lr rifle with very very good quality hallow point bullets ,,, 2nd and last option is any 9mm pistol and not a bit more ........ now i know most of the so called experts here will tell you other wise and give there reasons here ,but let me assure you what i said is practical and very true and not based on information from internet and not even from modern warfare game :) why a shotgun is a bad in side the house ,,, caz the minute u fire it inside it causes the flash bang effect ,the shorter the barrel the louder the band and faster u drop down like a fly ... and u need to be on ur feet to defend ur home .. regards and apologies in advance from key board warriors.....

seeker
20-08-2014, 08:30 PM
Change residence Sir ! I shudder to think of possibility of even one home invasion !

May Allah (swt) save of all from such a time and keep us and our loved one's safe .. ameen

Surg.Ray
20-08-2014, 08:50 PM
bro personaly i owned nothing my grandpa left me a vintage shotgun i experianced my father's cz75 , we have a 7mm hunting rifle at home a gift to my pa a wasted Norinco 7.62x25 just, i usually go out with my friends at one of my friend's farm house and that is my academy my world where i experiace there rifles and they use ours kind of sharing u say, this is from where i got all what i share here, i have no special trainers no particular training just observance and guide from my friends and thats it. my favrouit list is too big to post here, like all gun enthusists but what i love extremly are Macmillian Tac -300 or 7mm versions and HK417
how ever currently i have some money and i am thinking of buying some fancy 7.62x25 pistol and a .223 rifle i am confused on this bcz i hvnt decided it yet wether to go for AR-platform or AK personaly i am leaning towards AK till now for multiple reasons thats totally another topic and considoring molot vepr in .223, unfortunatly i am having some issues with my ears and currently for temporary time i have giveup on shooting but i will be back when i will get some good hearing protection and proper shooting gogles,
i will advice all nvoices here that Guns are not something funny always play safe don't risk your and other people life and go out and practice smthing, but with proper protection as health concerns are always first , get yourself a hearing protection and some nice shooting gogles rather than buying a gun first your ears and eyes are not going to return once lost... on other hand you will have whole life for learning guns, and if somebody is extra health concerning he can also buy "Kevlar gloves" for himself this can protect his hands in case of gun "Kaboom" kaboom is a lay man's word used to define an accidential gun blast due to various reasons related to Gun failures and inapproprate ammo,
thats all my brother,,,,

Sage advice D3AD!, you're doing good!

FA226
20-08-2014, 09:05 PM
This is perfect I also have the same setup instead of Vepr I have Beneli Tactical with SG .

Bro beneli and phantom is good setup as well.

hmd
20-08-2014, 10:59 PM
Bro beneli and phantom is good setup as well.
Thanks bro I love pump action and I am good with it but if ever I want to buy a semi auto shotgun it will be Vepr or Beneli M4 .

Fudgepacker
21-08-2014, 09:56 AM
Sage advice D3AD!, you're doing good!
I must agree, that is a very good attitude.

D3AD!
21-08-2014, 02:34 PM
yes and no... Actually of all the expert members here ,only u had it right but let me phrase it correctly for you .. for out of the living space(meaning in open air like roof .garden or balcony ) in bunglows ,bigger homes and even in small apartments a shotgun is best ........

Brother here are some condiotions if you had watch the SWAT team (american special forces group) , you will notice that they use SMG's like HK mp5s and AR15's which have shorter barrel lenghts like 12inches or maybe less even. the reason is that this allows more mobility in hiding behind the doors , going through narrow places, because expected threat can be any where so you need a small size weapon to go around quickly here range doesnt matters you dont need some thing like big G3s and full length M16's and other bigger guns, yes bullpups are considerable choice since they help to reduce overall gun length while maintaining a sufficent and reasonable barrel lenght which not only increases range but also increases muzzel velocity of fired rounds increasing there lethality, shot guns are also used but in whole team there may be no more than one or hardly 2-3 armed men who are equiped with shot guns reason is that a shot gun is used by them to breach doors they use specialised zinc rounds for breaching locks while ordinary buck shot rounds to breach wooden door, breaching means to broke open something , in short shotguns are not used to engage in a combat situation , they are not a good weapon for Home defence , reasons are big barrels which decrease mobility and aiming difficult while moving, heavy gun makes the carrier tired quickly, big blow (recoil) , and uselessness for rapid fires unless you have semi-auto platforms like saiga 12 and Molot vepr 12's, for HD shotguns are not as suitable as suitable small arms like AR's, Mp5s and short SMG varients of AK's are , 9mm pistols are even good to go in fact they should be carried necessarily as a side arm in case your primary weapon fails or you run out of ammo.
May God protect us all from such condition
I am done ........

shahroze
21-08-2014, 04:27 PM
for inside the house the best option is a bullpup in .22lr rifle with very very good quality hallow point bullets
I agree with everything you said but this, I don't consider .22lr adequate for self defense it's a cartridge developed for target shooting and small game/Varmint hunting and i would like to use it that way. Your opinion may differ but i can't put my faith in the tiny .22lr especially when i have the option of the good old 9mm or .45
I read a post on the forum one member shot and killed robbers with .22lr revolver with head shots, he controlled the situation pretty well and must have a good aim and nerves, I for one don't have steel balls to aim at the head nor i would be able to keep my self calm at the very best i would manage to stop my hands from shaking and this is the story of the average man, Now what i derive from the term Self defense is that to immediately stop a threat .22lr lacks that knock down power or energy to successfully drop/ neutralize the threat in one shot. With all due respect in my opinion 9mm or .45 are more viable in stopping a threat in HD or SD scenario than a .22lr.

Krinkov06
21-08-2014, 10:02 PM
.222 or 5.45x39 mm aks74u is the best SD HD weapon if you are a good shooter if not don't touch it is deadly . a pump action with SG rounds is better for nomal guys or you can say untrained shooters . but remember its a misconception that you don't need to aim a shot gun. Then spreading rate is 1 inch per yard so calculate and aim then fire

Krinkov06
21-08-2014, 10:16 PM
I agree with everything you said but this, I don't consider .22lr adequate for self defense it's a cartridge developed for target shooting and small game/Varmint hunting and i would like to use it that way. Your opinion may differ but i can't put my faith in the tiny .22lr especially when i have the option of the good old 9mm or .45
I read a post on the forum one member shot and killed robbers with .22lr revolver with head shots, he controlled the situation pretty well and must have a good aim and nerves, I for one don't have steel balls to aim at the head nor i would be able to keep my self calm at the very best i would manage to stop my hands from shaking and this is the story of the average man, Now what i derive from the term Self defense is that to immediately stop a threat .22lr lacks that knock down power or energy to successfully drop/ neutralize the threat in one shot. With all due respect in my opinion 9mm or .45 are more viable in stopping a threat in HD or SD scenario than a .22lr.

I respectfully disagree with seeker bro sir shoot me 15 times with a .22lr and I bet I'll stand my ground and I'll shoot on 2 bullets may be one of a SG round or 5.45x 39mm and you will not able to pull the trigger anymore I promise after that I'll go to hospital by driving my own car if Allah willing both will survive bit after two 5.45mm shots my chances will be high then you even after getting shoot 15 times ...why I know that ! I've been through this situation . I'm not putting 9mm or .45 acp in line coz those are hand guns and are talking about lr. If you come to hand guns a hp 9mm in the chest of Pakistani avg.guys is enough to put it on floor or make him stop breathing

seeker
21-08-2014, 10:25 PM
.222 or 5.45x39 mm aks74u is the best SD HD weapon if you are a good shooter if not don't touch it is deadly . a pump action with SG rounds is better for nomal guys or you can say untrained shooters . but remember its a misconception that you don't need to aim a shot gun. Then spreading rate is 1 inch per yard so calculate and aim then fire

Bro u need to read the post again and u need to understand it ,its not about SG ,LG or bug shot :) its about firing a shotgun in closed rooms ,its as deadly as for the one firing it as it is for the mugger .. after world war 2 . a law was passed not to use shotguns in war caz they were so deadly ,its about their over lethal power not under . :) be safe .

Krinkov06
21-08-2014, 10:32 PM
Bro u need to read the post again and u need to understand it ,its not about SG ,LG or bug shot :) its about firing a shotgun in closed rooms ,its as deadly as for the one firing it as it is for the mugger .. after world war 2 . a law was passed not to use shotguns in war caz they were so deadly ,its about their over lethal power not under . :) be safe .

Im sorry I misread it ....I will not support shooting a shot gun indoor in any situation .I'm hunter and a former fire arms dealer and tester .I'm sorry but I'll say wo " Oulu ka patha hai " Jo shot gun indoor use kary jahan range less the 20 yard ho .he will injure others his self and may be the target too if he is inside a 20x 20 room. Indoor you need to have a target shooter gun and any cal.will work but not shot gun that is to dangerous

shahroze
21-08-2014, 10:35 PM
I respectfully disagree with seeker bro sir shoot me 15 times with a .22lr and I bet I'll stand my ground and I'll shoot on 2 bullets may be one of a SG round or 5.45x 39mm and you will not able to pull the trigger anymore

Sir, your approach lacks substance no offense, but with 15 .22lr rounds or even for the sake of argument two properly placed .22lr round the person hit wont be able to stand. I ruled out .22lr because in a SD HD situation you don't have the time to aim properly or may not keep a steady hand and the biggest factor it lacks energy normally .22lr round has around 150-180ft pounds of energy where as the .45 and 9mm have well above 300ft pounds. One has more knock down power one has better penetration.
After all .22lr is a bullet don't underestimate it, It may not be at par with .45 or 9mm but it certainly can kill.

Krinkov06
21-08-2014, 10:42 PM
Bro u need to read the post again and u need to understand it ,its not about SG ,LG or bug shot :) its about firing a shotgun in closed rooms ,its as deadly as for the one firing it as it is for the mugger .. after world war 2 . a law was passed not to use shotguns in war caz they were so deadly ,its about their over lethal power not under . :) be safe .
I don't know you idea of home defense but in my view be lethal if some one break in to you house. In you loan or back yard hit less deadly parts but if someone is inside the house shoot to kill

Krinkov06
21-08-2014, 10:51 PM
Sir, your approach lacks substance no offense, but with 15 .22lr rounds or even for the sake of argument two properly placed .22lr round the person hit wont be able to stand. I ruled out .22lr because in a SD HD situation you don't have the time to aim properly or may not keep a steady hand and the biggest factor it lacks energy normally .22lr round has around 150-180ft pounds of energy where as the .45 and 9mm have well above 300ft pounds. One has more knock down power one has better penetration.
After all .22lr is a bullet don't underestimate it, It may not be at par with .45 or 9mm but it certainly can kill.

Bro when it comes to killing a better place stone can kill and the term " knock down power" is totally wrong .every bullet have " stopping power but you can't say a 9mm or 2 or even 10 can knock down someone .I've seen my own cousin taking 9 7.62 rounds and still shooting the attackers and he was standing and shooting .I was there .I took 15 .22lrs 3 very well placed but I was not knocked down ..... There is nothing called knock down power its a wrong term.its stopping power....

seeker
21-08-2014, 11:03 PM
I don't know you idea of home defense but in my view be lethal if some one break in to you house. In you loan or back yard hit less deadly parts but if someone is inside the house shoot to kill

You are very very right ,but u need to stand on ur feet to defend ur home ,, just buy a fire cracker (juji gola) and close ur door and blast it in ur room ,u will get the idea of what i am saying ,the loud bang disorients the brain and 75 to 80 % people will be knocked out for a minute or so ,if there is a child in room he can become deaf from it , so in side the house smaller caliber that u r comfortable with is most suited for .. be safe ,be practical ,, Hd is not about killing the mugger or saving ur valuables ,its about saving ur loved ones,, so if u own a gun for HD,, u need to practice with it .. and if the robbers are armed and serious about their work and it looks like they know what they r doing ,by all means shoot to kill even inlawn or back yard ,but if he or they are noob street robbers with out guns just fire a few warning shoots before u shoot them on less lethal parts.(that is if situation allows you) and believe me only less deadly parts in human body are the two arms and buttocks :) shooting on legs can be as deadly as shooting on chest or tummy. just be safe and pray Allah (SWT) keeps us away from such times . amen

seeker
21-08-2014, 11:12 PM
Im sorry I misread it ....I will not support shooting a shot gun indoor in any situation .I'm hunter and a former fire arms dealer and tester .I'm sorry but I'll say wo " Oulu ka patha hai " Jo shot gun indoor use kary jahan range less the 20 yard ho .he will injure others his self and may be the target too if he is inside a 20x 20 room. Indoor you need to have a target shooter gun and any cal.will work but not shot gun that is to dangerous

++++++1 sir you summed it up ,, end of discussion :)

seeker
21-08-2014, 11:27 PM
I agree with everything you said but this, I don't consider .22lr adequate for self defense it's a cartridge developed for target shooting and small game/Varmint hunting and i would like to use it that way. Your opinion may differ but i can't put my faith in the tiny .22lr especially when i have the option of the good old 9mm or .45
I read a post on the forum one member shot and killed robbers with .22lr revolver with head shots, he controlled the situation pretty well and must have a good aim and nerves, I for one don't have steel balls to aim at the head nor i would be able to keep my self calm at the very best i would manage to stop my hands from shaking and this is the story of the average man, Now what i derive from the term Self defense is that to immediately stop a threat .22lr lacks that knock down power or energy to successfully drop/ neutralize the threat in one shot. With all due respect in my opinion 9mm or .45 are more viable in stopping a threat in HD or SD scenario than a .22lr.

I gave my point of view considering many factors of our Pakistani life style ,and keeping in mind the availability of a weapon and its price.You should never use a weapon for HD witch you do not trust ,and you should also not use a weapon for HD with out break in period or at least a min of 500 rounds through it. I never said a .22lr pistol , i said a bull pup (full barrel length) and HALLOW POINT bullets of good quality ... fired from a rifle at close range they can be more deadly than 9mm..and dead accurate 20 to 30 round capacity ,,,,,,, but if u ask me if i can afford and buy 1 HD rifle or gun what it would be ... my advise for any 1 who can afford and get it in pakistan would be any good 9mm carbine semi auto .. the magazine load should be in this order ,from top to bottom ...2 FMJ. 1HP. 1FMJ .2HP 1 fmj 2 hp and so on :)

seeker
21-08-2014, 11:46 PM
Brother here are some condiotions if you had watch the SWAT team (american special forces group) , you will notice that they use SMG's like HK mp5s and AR15's which have shorter barrel lenghts like 12inches or maybe less even. the reason is that this allows more mobility in hiding behind the doors , going through narrow places, because expected threat can be any where so you need a small size weapon to go around quickly here range doesnt matters you dont need some thing like big G3s and full length M16's and other bigger guns, yes bullpups are considerable choice since they help to reduce overall gun length while maintaining a sufficent and reasonable barrel lenght which not only increases range but also increases muzzel velocity of fired rounds increasing there lethality, shot guns are also used but in whole team there may be no more than one or hardly 2-3 armed men who are equiped with shot guns reason is that a shot gun is used by them to breach doors they use specialised zinc rounds for breaching locks while ordinary buck shot rounds to breach wooden door, breaching means to broke open something , in short shotguns are not used to engage in a combat situation , they are not a good weapon for Home defence , reasons are big barrels which decrease mobility and aiming difficult while moving, heavy gun makes the carrier tired quickly, big blow (recoil) , and uselessness for rapid fires unless you have semi-auto platforms like saiga 12 and Molot vepr 12's, for HD shotguns are not as suitable as suitable small arms like AR's, Mp5s and short SMG varients of AK's are , 9mm pistols are even good to go in fact they should be carried necessarily as a side arm in case your primary weapon fails or you run out of ammo.
May God protect us all from such condition
I am done ........

:) :) :) :) ,thats my view on ur post ...(1) why caz i dont watch swat team, and caz u dont know what SWAT means .. the word SWAT in it self explains every thing u had to write here ,just swat was enough .most of us would have got it. (2) we r not discussing home invasion ,we r discussing home defense by 1 single person or by both parents ,or by any 1 stupid enough to do it ..caz only parents r the fools who will risk their lives for their children.. (3) and the most important is never ever again mention or suggest PB and SMG here caz its against the rules and you could get banned for that.. when ever giving ur views keep in mind full auto is out of question.
As ur elder brother or uncle i shall advise you read a post and try to understand whats in it ,and than give your views on it ,right or wrong don;t matter unless u r on the topic ...understanding and learning is the main reason we are all here .

Krinkov06
22-08-2014, 12:24 AM
You are very very right ,but u need to stand on ur feet to defend ur home ,, just buy a fire cracker (juji gola) and close ur door and blast it in ur room ,u will get the idea of what i am saying ,the loud bang disorients the brain and 75 to 80 % people will be knocked out for a minute or so ,if there is a child in room he can become deaf from it , so in side the house smaller caliber that u r comfortable with is most suited for .. be safe ,be practical ,, Hd is not about killing the mugger or saving ur valuables ,its about saving ur loved ones,, so if u own a gun for HD,, u need to practice with it .. and if the robbers are armed and serious about their work and it looks like they know what they r doing ,by all means shoot to kill even inlawn or back yard ,but if he or they are noob street robbers with out guns just fire a few warning shoots before u shoot them on less lethal parts.(that is if situation allows you) and believe me only less deadly parts in human body are the two arms and buttocks :) shooting on legs can be as deadly as shooting on chest or tummy. just be safe and pray Allah (SWT) keeps us away from such times . amen

This is totally a different matter bro. i said i was a arms dealer and i was not a small scale 1 or two shops guy ...i was a supplier half of my family is in this business now and you know what first thing we arms dealers tell anyone who tell us that i'm buying it for home defense. buy ear protection with it i had few lists back then for my customers need to have and better to have and ear protection flash light and suppressor was a have to kind of thing for home defense... your ear protection must be laying next to your HD gun all the time. even .22 can make you deaf in a 10x10 room for a while and will not be able to listen what is happening around you. ++1 on your point. i was in a tester team of POF back then. they call me some times even now. i was in the team how tested POF eye first time :)

Krinkov06
22-08-2014, 12:34 AM
Brother here are some condiotions if you had watch the SWAT team (american special forces group) , you will notice that they use SMG's like HK mp5s and AR15's which have shorter barrel lenghts like 12inches or maybe less even. the reason is that this allows more mobility in hiding behind the doors , going through narrow places, because expected threat can be any where so you need a small size weapon to go around quickly here range doesnt matters you dont need some thing like big G3s and full length M16's and other bigger guns, yes bullpups are considerable choice since they help to reduce overall gun length while maintaining a sufficent and reasonable barrel lenght which not only increases range but also increases muzzel velocity of fired rounds increasing there lethality, shot guns are also used but in whole team there may be no more than one or hardly 2-3 armed men who are equiped with shot guns reason is that a shot gun is used by them to breach doors they use specialised zinc rounds for breaching locks while ordinary buck shot rounds to breach wooden door, breaching means to broke open something , in short shotguns are not used to engage in a combat situation , they are not a good weapon for Home defence , reasons are big barrels which decrease mobility and aiming difficult while moving, heavy gun makes the carrier tired quickly, big blow (recoil) , and uselessness for rapid fires unless you have semi-auto platforms like saiga 12 and Molot vepr 12's, for HD shotguns are not as suitable as suitable small arms like AR's, Mp5s and short SMG varients of AK's are , 9mm pistols are even good to go in fact they should be carried necessarily as a side arm in case your primary weapon fails or you run out of ammo.
May God protect us all from such condition
I am done ........

SWAT? We are talking about Home defense here not hostage rescue or assault my brother. one more thing SWAT means Special weapons and tactics (TACTICS) this is the main thing what a shooter need to know about the gun he is shooting tell me the percentage of trained shooters around you who know their guns at SWAT level. how they move you know i think but you don't know what is the rate of any SWAT or other SF attack friendly fire hits and most of them caused by .....12 GAG shots .... that's why thy use Slug shots now and SG shoot coz they spread less. indoor use of a 4,6 or 8 number KARTUS is to dangerous for your self and your family too.avoid it or if you need some day and shoot with it without thinking of where and what am i shooting call me from Hospital i'll come to visit you ...we are not mad Seeker and other guys are trying to save you from a big mistake listen to them brother.They talk like experienced people and i know my self .....i can advise .listen to them plz they are right.

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 01:07 AM
Bro u need to read the post again and u need to understand it ,its not about SG ,LG or bug shot :) its about firing a shotgun in closed rooms ,its as deadly as for the one firing it as it is for the mugger .. after world war 2 . a law was passed not to use shotguns in war caz they were so deadly ,its about their over lethal power not under . :) be safe .
That's total bs bro, where do you get your info from? Germans "complained" about Americans shotguns being ruthless, while they were torturing people and throwing them in gas chambers. Bottom line is, they wanted them, but didn't have them. Nonetheless, they never have been nor are they currently banned. Ever heard of the M870 Remington? How about the M1014 Benelli? Both shotguns in active duty with the US Military.

Don't know about you, but I've always been taught that shotguns are the #1 choice for HD. I'm talking short, tactical shotguns that are maneuverable in tight spaces. I'm talking collapsible stocks, rails, and pistol grips, not your Grand Dad's shottie he uses for bird hunting, with a 32" barrel. But regardless, they all have a wide poi, pumps/break actions are as reliable as guns get, and chances of over penetration are greatly reduced.
In other words, when you're scared sh!tless, hands are shaking and the bg's somewhere in your house, would you rather have a gun that shoots a 1/2 inch or less point of impact, or something that fires a 1/2 foot or more poi? When your family is at stake, would you rather have a semi auto that may or may not jam, or a pump that's going to cycle as long as you still have your arms? When someone you love could be hiding in the next room, would you rather fire a round that could go through the wall and kill them, or something that will probably stop at the wall?
The choice should be obvious. What do you think?

hmd
22-08-2014, 03:53 AM
Omg to much information @fudgepacker always like and enjoy your comments .

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 04:27 AM
Thank you hmd bro! I am humbled by your compliment.

seeker
22-08-2014, 04:44 AM
That's total bs bro, where do you get your info from? Germans "complained" about Americans shotguns being ruthless, while they were torturing people and throwing them in gas chambers. Bottom line is, they wanted them, but didn't have them. Nonetheless, they never have been nor are they currently banned. Ever heard of the M870 Remington? How about the M1014 Benelli? Both shotguns in active duty with the US Military.

Don't know about you, but I've always been taught that shotguns are the #1 choice for HD. I'm talking short, tactical shotguns that are maneuverable in tight spaces. I'm talking collapsible stocks, rails, and pistol grips, not your Grand Dad's shottie he uses for bird hunting, with a 32" barrel. But regardless, they all have a wide poi, pumps/break actions are as reliable as guns get, and chances of over penetration are greatly reduced.
In other words, when you're scared sh!tless, hands are shaking and the bg's somewhere in your house, would you rather have a gun that shoots a 1/2 inch or less point of impact, or something that fires a 1/2 foot or more poi? When your family is at stake, would you rather have a semi auto that may or may not jam, or a pump that's going to cycle as long as you still have your arms? When someone you love could be hiding in the next room, would you rather fire a round that could go through the wall and kill them, or something that will probably stop at the wall?
The choice should be obvious. What do you think?
I think its totally one's choice according to his experience and budget ..when ur time is bad that pump will also misfire or you wont be able to takeoff safety ,or before that u might not be able to load or reload that pump action .. but one should have weapon of his choice for HD ,even if its a bad or wrong choice . :) about the ww2 law ,its was a long story cut short ,i saw a documentary very long ago about ww's ,about 20 years ago .i dont remember the facts word by word but it was germans filing a petition in some world court against the use of shotguns by americans ,but the petition was rejected later on because the allegation was not on shotgun it was on the type of ammo used which was not proven by germans (it was lead based or iron based some thing like that). but during the time of hearing of the petition, the use of shotguns was suspended in combat, even after the petition was rejected the US army reduced the use to very minimal ,only marines were using it for some time but after that they could not resist the temptation of a shotgun .. :) thats all from that documentary and i dont know any more details about it nor did i ever tried to get some .
what we hear or what ppl tell us not always 100% true ,the one's who taught u that shotgun is best for HD are the same ones that told the world that sugar is good u need it for your energy ,they r the one's who said GMO foods will end the world hunger crises ,they are the one's who once promoted floride in tooth past . we here in Pakistan have a tendency of not listening to them blindly. :) (may be a few of us ) .. most of the teachings in modern world are industry driven ,they have their pros and cons . we all believe in them in the way we want to ..

and i am soo sorry ,all my sympathies for you may Allah (SWT) helps u recover from ur child hood shock of playing too much with ur grand dad's 32'' shottie .... i am so very sorry for you ... he should have let u play with a 6" water pistol which u had handled easily..

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 05:07 AM
I think its totally one's choice according to his experience and budget ..when ur time is bad that pump will also misfire or you wont be able to takeoff safety ,or before that u might not be able to load or reload* that pump action .. but one should have weapon of his choice for HD ,even if its a bad or wrong choice . :) about the ww2 law ,its was a long story cut short ,i saw a documentary very long ago about ww's ,about 20 years ago .i dont remember the facts** word by word but it was germans filing a petition in some world court against the use of shotguns by americans ,but the petition was rejected later on because the allegation was not on shotgun it was on the type of ammo used which was not proven by germans (it was lead based or iron based some thing like that). but during the time of hearing of the petition, the use of shotguns was suspended in combat, even after the petition was rejected the US army reduced the use to very minimal ,only marines were using it for some time but after that they could not resist the temptation of a shotgun .. :) thats all from that documentary and i dont know any more details about it nor did i ever tried to get some .
*I've never had a pump jam on me, have you? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have a safety? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have to be reloaded?
**Then why did you state it as fact?


what we hear or what ppl tell us not always 100% true ,the one's who taught u* that shotgun is best for HD are the same ones that told the world that sugar is good u need it for your energy ,they r the one's who said GMO foods will end the world hunger crises ,they are the one's who once promoted floride in tooth past . we here in Pakistan have a tendency of not listening to them blindly. :) (may be a few of us ) .. most of the teachings in modern world are industry driven ,they have their pros and cons** . we all believe in them in the way we want to ..
*how do you know who taught me?
**I stated my pros and cons, what are yours?


and i am soo sorry ,all my sympathies for you may Allah (SWT) helps u recover from ur child hood shock of playing too much with ur grand dad's 32'' shottie* .... i am so very sorry for you ... he should have let u play with a 6" water pistol which u had handled easily..
*There you go bull sh!tting everyone again, who told you I had childhood shock from playing with shotguns? Did you speak to my therapist?

D3AD!
22-08-2014, 05:34 AM
:) :) :) :) ,thats my view on ur post ...(1) why caz i dont watch swat team, and caz u dont know what SWAT means .. the word SWAT in it self explains every thing u had to write here ,just swat was enough .most of us would have got it. (2) we r not discussing home invasion ,we r discussing home defense by 1 single person or by both parents ,or by any 1 stupid enough to do it ..caz only parents r the fools who will risk their lives for their children.. (3) and the most important is never ever again mention or suggest PB and SMG here caz its against the rules and you could get banned for that.. when ever giving ur views keep in mind full auto is out of question.
As ur elder brother or uncle i shall advise you read a post and try to understand whats in it ,and than give your views on it ,right or wrong don;t matter unless u r on the topic ...understanding and learning is the main reason we are all here .

Thank you brother for your conserns , well i will keep my future discussions out of Auto weapons, what i was trying to tell others brother was that i was discussing SWAT senerio how do they operate in conditions like home and offices and buildings where rooms and corridors and narrow places are abundant and i was tring to examplify the same condition with Home defence , that what can be the possible best solutions in this matter my intention was with semi auto versions but since i mentioned SWAT Weapons by mistake it is something that i should look for in future discusions,
all in all thank you brother

I am done ..........

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 05:36 AM
Shall I continue?

yes and no... Actually of all the expert members here ,only u had it right but let me phrase it correctly for you .. for out of the living space(meaning in open air like roof .garden or balcony ) in bunglows ,bigger homes and even in small apartments a shotgun is best of the best even better than an ak47:) ,, but for inside the house ,in closed rooms its worst than a knife ,actually a knife is better than a shotgun inside the house* ,,,, for inside the house the best option is a bullpup in .22lr rifle with very very good quality hallow point bullets** ,,, 2nd and last option is any 9mm pistol and not a bit more ........ now i know most of the so called experts here will tell you other wise and give there reasons here ,but let me assure you what i said is practical and very true and not based on information from internet and not even from modern warfare game :) why a shotgun is a bad in side the house ,,, caz the minute u fire it inside it causes the flash bang effect ,the shorter the barrel the louder the band and faster u drop down like a fly*** ... and u need to be on ur feet to defend ur home .. regards and apologies in advance from key board warriors.....
*Someone invading your home will likely be armed right? So you think it's a good idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?
**Why don't you recommend to all of us a good bullpup chambered in 22lr... While you're at it, tell us of a "very very good" hollow point 22's that will expand reliably. Its hard for me to think of any right now... maybe it's my childhood shock affecting my mind again (at least it doesn't cause me to bs everyone on the forum) :bounce:
***LMAO :lol: if you say so bro :lol: Tell you what, the M84 standard issue stun grenade, AKA "flashbang", generates over 5,000,000cd of light and 180db of noise, why don't to educate us of the model of shotgun and type of cartridge that can even come close to that, and "make people drop like flies" :lol:

I'm starting to wonder who the keyboard warrior really is...

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 05:45 AM
Thank you brother for your conserns , well i will keep my future discussions out of Auto weapons, what i was trying to tell others brother was that i was discussing SWAT senerio how do they operate in conditions like home and offices and buildings where rooms and corridors and narrow places are abundant and i was tring to examplify the same condition with Home defence , that what can be the possible best solutions in this matter my intention was with semi auto versions but since i mentioned SWAT Weapons by mistake it is something that i should look for in future discusions,
all in all thank you brother

I am done ..........
Don't worry about it D3, he has no idea what he's talking about. At least you're smart enough to know when you're wrong, and well mannered enough to apologize for your mistakes. Unlike some people, who clearly lack intelligence and are devoid of any semblance of class.

seeker
22-08-2014, 07:22 AM
*I've never had a pump jam on me, have you? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have a safety? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have to be reloaded?
**Then why did you state it as fact?


*how do you know who taught me?
**I stated my pros and cons, what are yours?


*There you go bull sh!tting everyone again, who told you I had childhood shock from playing with shotguns? Did you speak to my therapist?

you were so mad at Grand dad's 32'' shotte ,that it was obvious u had a child hood shock from ur grand dad,other wise you would have chosen ur words respectfully in the first place .. ur no. scoring is good almost perfect ,proves u r a key board warrior,getting ur information from reliable sources to prove some point to ur self ,, ur gun never jammed it good for u ,no 1's should , my point was when ur time is over its over no matter what or how good and reliable it is ,, when its not. a pepper spray will save u ,,,
just 1 question ,how many times u had been shot upon ,or how many times have u been in a combat situation .. or you r just another expert who shoots on paper .... don't take every thing to heart .. learn to respect ppl ,and get respected.. stay safe ,and pray that day never comes when bullets r fired at u ,,just hope the fun stays in the range and never comes on streets.. don't watch too much movies about SHTF :) caz when its gona hit the fan ,the fan would probably be running and its gonna spread on all roof .. :) stay blessed and growup... believe me its time now ...

seeker
22-08-2014, 07:50 AM
*I've never had a pump jam on me, have you? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have a safety? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have to be reloaded?
**Then why did you state it as fact?


*how do you know who taught me?
**I stated my pros and cons, what are yours?


*There you go bull sh!tting everyone again, who told you I had childhood shock from playing with shotguns? Did you speak to my therapist?


Shall I continue?

*Someone invading your home will likely be armed right? So you think it's a good idea to bring a knife to a gunfight?
**Why don't you recommend to all of us a good bullpup chambered in 22lr... While you're at it, tell us of a "very very good" hollow point 22's that will expand reliably. Its hard for me to think of any right now... maybe it's my childhood shock affecting my mind again (at least it doesn't cause me to bs everyone on the forum) :bounce:
***LMAO :lol: if you say so bro :lol: Tell you what, the M84 standard issue stun grenade, AKA "flashbang", generates over 5,000,000cd of light and 180db of noise, why don't to educate us of the model of shotgun and type of cartridge that can even come close to that, and "make people drop like flies" :lol:

I'm starting to wonder who the keyboard warrior really is...

just to inform u 70 to 80% robberies in Pakistan r done by petty choors .. most of the time their priority is to run like hell and not get caught. and God forbids if its an armed robbery 95% chance is u wont get to ur guns if the robbers know their job well ,,you can get away from it only if robbers r new recruits ...... just pray Allah (SWT) keep us and our loved 1's safe ..if not fully trained an average person will have problems with his fire arms. and if u manage to save ur self from an armed robbery and in the process u have injured or killed 1 or more robbers ,you will probably have to leave the city or ur colony ,caz u had made some very dangerous enemies for ur life ,,,,, thats the harsh bitter reality of our Pakistan .. smaller the caliber less lethal for every 1 ,happy ending.... i say be practical ,buy practical and spend money on ammo ,practice with ur gun thats what really counts ,,,, you may differ caz u have a right to ,but HD is very different from other SHTF scenarios. my advise never shoot to kill unless u r sure that u will be killed otherwise .....

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 08:13 AM
You came back for more... That's good, very good :lol:

You are very very right ,but u need to stand on ur feet to defend ur home ,, just buy a fire cracker (juji gola) and close ur door and blast it in ur room ,u will get the idea of what i am saying ,the loud bang disorients the brain and 75 to 80 % people will be knocked out for a minute or so* ,if there is a child in room he can become deaf from it , so in side the house smaller caliber that u r comfortable with is most suited for .. be safe ,be practical ,, Hd is not about killing the mugger or saving ur valuables ,its about saving ur loved ones,, so if u own a gun for HD,, u need to practice with it .. and if the robbers are armed and serious about their work and it looks like they know what they r doing ,by all means shoot to kill even inlawn or back yard ,but if he or they are noob street robbers with out guns just fire a few warning shoots** before u shoot them on less lethal parts.(that is if situation allows you) and believe me only less deadly parts in human body are the two arms and buttocks*** :) shooting on legs can be as deadly as shooting on chest or tummy. just be safe and pray Allah (SWT) keeps us away from such times . amen
*Where did you get this 75-80% from? You've done the research? Did you see it in a movie? Or did you just make it up?
**So when someone breaks into your home, your advice is to first determine how good they are at being criminals, whether they "know what they're doing" or whether they're "noob street robbers" and then shoot them accordingly?
***So you're saying if your brachial artery is severed, that is not a life threatening injury? Are you a medic? Or doctor? Do you have any idea of how the human body works?

I don't need to prove anything to anyone, but I hate it when people propagate misleading ideas, give false information, and strait up lie to people I consider my friends!
So forget the insults, say something with substance, argue with facts, tell me why I'm wrong, give me the pros and cons of your argument. Are you capable of doing that?

Can you forget about my Grandpa's shotgun for one minute, I admit I was traumatized... Ok? Happy? Now, using that minute, tell me what I said that isn't true...

seeker
22-08-2014, 08:48 AM
*I've never had a pump jam on me, have you? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have a safety? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have to be reloaded?
**Then why did you state it as fact?


*how do you know who taught me?
**I stated my pros and cons, what are yours?


*There you go bull sh!tting everyone again, who told you I had childhood shock from playing with shotguns? Did you speak to my therapist?


You came back for more... That's good,mvery good :lol:

*Where did you get this 75-80% from? You've done the research? Did you see it in a movie? Or did you just make it up?
**So when someone breaks into your home, your advice is to first determine how good they are at being criminals, whether they "know what they're doing" or whether they're "noob street robbers" and then shoot them accordingly?
***So you're saying if your brachial artery is severed, that is not a life threatening injury? Are you a medic? Or doctor? Do you have any idea of how the human body works?

I don't need to prove anything to anyone, but I hate it when people propagate misleading ideas, give false information, and strait up lie to people I consider my friends!
So forget the insults, say something with substance, argue with facts, tell me why I'm wrong, give me the pros and cons of your argument. Are you capable of doing that?

Can you forget about my Grandpa's shotgun for one minute, I admit I was traumatized... Ok? Now, using that minute, tell me what I said that isn't true...

just google the sound of a shotgun bang in an open space and in closed rooms ,compare it to an average flash bang which varies from 130 to 180db,, its not always 180db. what i said about it was purely my experience, never googled any thing before posting ,but I did google the sounds in db to compare ur quote ,but i did know that average human comfort level is 160db, above it causes damage to ears and brain ,and i also know for a fact that .22lr makes over 110db in open air ..
i never said what u say is not true ,its very true but when we talk in general we talk about average and not of elite.. very very frankly speaking ,for the price of guns most of us discuss here for HD,,and plus the price of ammo needed for practice,range annual fee and all the tension of it having a security guard is more cheaper and convenient.

why would it matter how i am ,i can be any 1 with experience ,or i can be a no body as rest of us here , no offence but i found 80% of the comments about experience bs.. but i enjoy them ,, i bet there wont be more than 10 members who actually shoots their guns regularly,and even less who have actually shot more than 5000 rounds.. we here have courage to buy an expansive gun but buying bullets in bulk is a no no here , sorry but no offence meant ,that my observation here could be totally wrong. and I know for a fact that .22lr shot from a rifle in closed range is very very dangerous ,, misfire is a different issue .. and i aslo said if u ask me and if any 1 can afford it here in Pakistan my first choice shall a 9mm carbine and not a .22lr ...... hope u had fun tonight :) enjoy and be safe

Fudgepacker
22-08-2014, 09:26 AM
just google the sound of a shotgun bang in an open space and in closed rooms ,compare it to an average flash bang which varies from 130 to 180db,, its not always 180db.* what i said about it was purely my experience, never googled any thing before posting ,but I did google the sounds in db to compare ur quote ,but i did know that average human comfort level is 160db, above it causes damage to ears** and brain ,and i also know for a fact that .22lr makes over 110db in open air ..
i never said what u say is not true ,its very true but when we talk in general we talk about average and not of elite.. very very frankly speaking ,for the price of guns most of us discuss here for HD,,and plus the price of ammo needed for practice,range annual fee and all the tension of it having a security guard is more cheaper and convenient.

why would it matter how i am ,i can be any 1 with experience ,or i can be a no body as rest of us here , no offence but i found 80% of the comments about experience bs..*** but i enjoy them ,, i bet there wont be more than 10 members who actually shoots their guns regularly****,and even less who have actually shot more than 5000 rounds.. we here have courage to buy an expansive gun but buying bullets in bulk is a no no here , sorry but no offence meant ,that my observation here could be totally wrong. and I know for a fact that .22lr shot from a rifle in closed range is very very dangerous***** ,, misfire is a different issue .. and i aslo said if u ask me and if any 1 can afford it here in Pakistan my first choice shall a 9mm carbine and not a .22lr ...... hope u had fun tonight****** :) enjoy and be safe
*The M84 stun grenade will produce a minimum 170dB of sound pressure, anything less and it is rendered ineffective. Mil spec and production standards ensure that it is. A .223 is 155dB loud, and a 12 gauge shotgun is 156dB.
**Human comfort level with sound pressure/volume perception differs from person to person, however, there is no permissible time limit to exposure to sounds exceeding 130dB, at which point hearing damage is immediate. We already had an intelligent conversation about this in another thread. If people actually listened to you, they would go deaf!
***Did you count each one, and then verify which was bs and which was not?
****Ok, I'll bet you... Do you know everyone on PG?
*****Very good! Now name a gun that isn't very very dangerous at close range.
******I did, but I'll have even more fun if you keep talking :lol:

czman
22-08-2014, 11:28 AM
Feh, all you noob greenhorns talking about calibers and self defence like you know something.

Here in MY town, we handle home invader with REAL MANLY STUFF

You little kidders with your .22 lr HP rounds cant do anything against a attacker.

I can see the headline now : ATTACKER INVADES HOME. IS KILLED BY EXTREMELY MACHO HOME OWNER. BLOWS UP HIS OWN HOUSE IN THE PROCESS ALONGSIDE MOST OF THE NEIGHBOURHOOD.

*REAL MEN BUY HOME INSURANCE *AND* 3RD PARTY LIABILITY SONNY!*

czman
22-08-2014, 12:07 PM
Back to real stuff. If i were to be perfectly honest, a small, short bullpup shotgun in semi or pump take your pick, like the KSG loaded with sabot slugs and a rifled barrel would be my top choice. The reason why i choose slugs instead of buckshot, is beauce in the short ranges that HD encounters are made in, the "spread" of buck is nonexistent.

I have a nagging feeling that EVERYBODY who is going for .22 for a HD weapon has never in their life experienced such a situation.

I think, everyone here needs to go play paintball and realize how ******* hard it is to actually shoot someone who is having a go at you. If you are lucky, you can land a chest shot. id rather have more stopping power in that one hit then *hope* that i magically will get a headshot every time. This is real life. not call of duty people. If any of you have played arma, americas army, ISI, delta force, or any realistic shooter you have a inkling of what i am talking about.

Please dont give me any of that optimistic stuff. We are looking for things that can kill reliably, even with less then perfect shots. 22 lr does not fit the bill. It can kill, no doubt about that. But as reliably as a bigger caliber? nope. And please, none of that .22 lr has low recoil and lots of rounds. 9mm weapons have MORE rounds and manageable recoil, enough that greenhorns are given 9mm to start with. And once again, with a less then perfect shot, significant damage will still occur. And once again, please none of that " less lethal" stuff about not wanting to kill the robber. The second you point your weapon at something, YOU WANT IT TO DIE, BE DESTROYED COMPLETELY AND SENT TO THE 7TH LEVEL OF HELL. PERIOD.
be it for the sake of food, defense, or offence.
The only thing a surviving attacker will do is either sue you in court ( and win, if its the western world) or stay there and pop a few more rounds at you.

As for Fudge and seeker, get over your girlish slap-fest. You are making youselves look bad. Both of you are grown, respectable men and members of our PG society. Show it. Give us some real fierce debate, on logic and points rather then this husband and wife quarrel.



@ED
Seriously, 10 yards and you couldent hit it? even with 4 years of practice? The first time i shot i was hitting those ranges repetitively. I think, you need strength training( no kidding, you looked pretty scrawny in your sword vids) + you need to change your gun. try out a few. a target pistol will likely be the best option. It worked absolute wonders for me.

Krinkov06
22-08-2014, 02:03 PM
*I've never had a pump jam on me, have you? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have a safety? Do you have a rifle that doesn't have to be reloaded?
**Then why did you state it as fact?


*how do you know who taught me?
**I stated my pros and cons, what are yours?


*There you go bull sh!tting everyone again, who told you I had childhood shock from playing with shotguns? Did you speak to my therapist?
I need to know and I really want to know how on the planet earth a pump action can jam? If its metained and lubricated well.if it was not then its your fault man not gun's......

D3AD!
22-08-2014, 02:14 PM
Don't worry about it D3, he has no idea what he's talking about. At least you're smart enough to know when you're wrong, and well mannered enough to apologize for your mistakes. Unlike some people, who clearly lack intelligence and are devoid of any semblance of class.

so nice of you, Thanks a lot brother for your support

Tank
22-08-2014, 03:05 PM
As for Fudge and seeker, get over your girlish slap-fest. You are making youselves look bad. Both of you are grown, respectable men and members of our PG society. Show it. Give us some real fierce debate, on logic and points rather then this husband and wife quarrel.

+1 have to agree with CZman here... even though all this was entertaining

Enigmatic Desires
22-08-2014, 03:38 PM
Waitaminute? Stop the presses.. Did i read that some1 here got shot 15 times and some1 else 9 times and they lived happily ever after?

DETAILS PLEASE!!!

And CZman CZman how on earth did u see my Bokkin training katas.. They were suppose to be a closely guarded secret. Since I showed em to my latest and she said they were (shudder) cute

And of course I cant land anything on paper at 10 yards.. I don't want to hurt the paper.

Point being that it is easy to miss.. very easy and it was a no stress situation. No adrenaline and all that rot. Which is why a 12 guage is my choice of HD weapon. Even though i live in a flat. .. And who ever says that pumps don't jam has obviously not owned a Khyber arms Defender clone. I have personally seen 2 of em jam and know bout a few more that did.

Krinkov06
22-08-2014, 06:18 PM
Waitaminute? Stop the presses.. Did i read that some1 here got shot 15 times and some1 else 9 times and they lived happily ever after?

DETAILS PLEASE!!!

And CZman CZman how on earth did u see my Bokkin training katas.. They were suppose to be a closely guarded secret. Since I showed em to my latest and she said they were (shudder) cute

And of course I cant land anything on paper at 10 yards.. I don't want to hurt the paper.

Point being that it is easy to miss.. very easy and it was a no stress situation. No adrenaline and all that rot. Which is why a 12 guage is my choice of HD weapon. Even though i live in a flat. .. And who ever says that pumps don't jam has obviously not owned a Khyber arms Defender clone. I have personally seen 2 of em jam and know bout a few more that did.

Yeah that happened I took 15 and my cousin took 9 of AK we spent 4 and 7 months in hospitals but we both survived he is now in Europe and living happy with his wife and son. Now details: I BELONG TO GUJRRAT PUNJAB AREA KNOWN AS MADINA SYEDIAN. ask some punjabi friend may be they give you better detaild . I never seen a better pump getting jammed till now.yeah I've seen kartos covers breaking and blocking ejector that's was coz of round not the pump. Khyber arms ki asliyat na poncho bhai.buy DSA pumps when ever you wanna buy a local made.

seeker
22-08-2014, 06:44 PM
:) .thanks @ czman and rest of u :) ... I am not the one arguing ,,I gave my opinion on a matter and in with my experience i found it to be very very true and practical ,,, i never advocated the use of a .22lr for HD .though I have 1 in every kids room so they can use it if good forbids needed. I still say from my experience firing a 12 guage in side the house ,in living room is very pain full and for small kids its even more ...
I only answered fudge bro from his post ,as he was abusive in his first post talking to some 1 you don't even know,you dont know hes old or hes young ..And i never tried to insist that he was wrong ,i just offered him to think on what he is saying in his posts,,,. just as in his last post he asked ...*****Very good! Now name a gun that isn't very very dangerous at close range. ,,,,,,, all of you think and tell me if this statement of Fudge bro is right ,than what is this all fuss about .....read my first post and compare it to this statement,, i am advocating of not using a shotgun inside the house if u want to bu all means do ,what is here to fight about .... he advocates use of a pump ,ok its a good choice but why u ppl think that if u had a gun u are going to win ???? what if u get shot at ,what if u hurt ur arm or hand u cant rack the pump any more ,what good this 5 shooter will be for you ...... ???? be honest to answer dont say ur shooting had can get shot in a semi auto ,caz if ur r trained u can shoot a seni with ur other hand ..... :) :) ..... and please remember u r not experienced enough untill u had been shot upon ,,,

@ cz bro ,I was talking about choors man ,,not a full assault on home ,, God forbids :)
Be safe and pray that day never comes when u have to use ur guns to protect ur loved ones... caz thats a very very difficult situation ..

seeker
22-08-2014, 07:17 PM
Yeah that happened I took 15 and my cousin took 9 of AK we spent 4 and 7 months in hospitals but we both survived he is now in Europe and living happy with his wife and son. Now details: I BELONG TO GUJRRAT PUNJAB AREA KNOWN AS MADINA SYEDIAN. ask some punjabi friend may be they give you better detaild . I never seen a better pump getting jammed till now.yeah I've seen kartos covers breaking and blocking ejector that's was coz of round not the pump. Khyber arms ki asliyat na poncho bhai.buy DSA pumps when ever you wanna buy a local made.

if i remember correctly ,before Karachi,, Gujrat was the most dangerous part in pakistan, news papers always had some news of killing from zila gujrat ,, i may be wrong caz that was about 25 to 30 years ago ,, is this MADINA SYEDIAN on road way to head maralla just out side of Gujrat??? if it is than i have heard it a deadly place with losts and lost of ammo and dushmanis ,am i right ? I once stopped there with one of my hunting parties on way to maralla hills ,played tetar hunt there about 10 years back .

seeker
22-08-2014, 07:32 PM
You came back for more... That's good, very good :lol:

*Where did you get this 75-80% from? You've done the research? Did you see it in a movie? Or did you just make it up?
**So when someone breaks into your home, your advice is to first determine how good they are at being criminals, whether they "know what they're doing" or whether they're "noob street robbers" and then shoot them accordingly?
***So you're saying if your brachial artery is severed, that is not a life threatening injury? Are you a medic? Or doctor? Do you have any idea of how the human body works?

I don't need to prove anything to anyone, but I hate it when people propagate misleading ideas, give false information, and strait up lie to people I consider my friends!
So forget the insults, say something with substance, argue with facts, tell me why I'm wrong, give me the pros and cons of your argument. Are you capable of doing that?

Can you forget about my Grandpa's shotgun for one minute, I admit I was traumatized... Ok? Happy? Now, using that minute, tell me what I said that isn't true...


Bro some of us in Pakistan,punjab..have actually knowledge of our surroundings.I have 2 csp officers in my family(my father's children ) and my eldest son will in sha Allah be taking the CSS exams with in next three years ,he has already started the studies for it. .. be safe and pray you never ever have to use your guns,,, any thing except for the game and fun of shooting targets and clay ..

Krinkov06
22-08-2014, 09:52 PM
if i remember correctly ,before Karachi,, Gujrat was the most dangerous part in pakistan, news papers always had some news of killing from zila gujrat ,, i may be wrong caz that was about 25 to 30 years ago ,, is this MADINA SYEDIAN on road way to head maralla just out side of Gujrat??? if it is than i have heard it a deadly place with losts and lost of ammo and dushmanis ,am i right ? I once stopped there with one of my hunting parties on way to maralla hills ,played tetar hunt there about 10 years back .

Yes brother this the exact place you are talking about .its still the most dangerous part of punjab and madiana syedan and moeen-u-din pur syedan is the most deadly kind of place in gujjrat. Some people may be consider it as a joke but morters and RPGs are like mangos for us,I don't wanna go in details but the guns even Karachi gangsters think of impossible to have are laying under our beds all the times. PKMs ' Lmgs( mg 42) m203s . are normal weapons for us . dushmani thing destroyed us but we can't stop it now. Ever home have some murder story .we were 4 brothers I'm the youngest and the only left...... Same goes to ever6 single house in the area, what we learn from all this " ziada paisa with jjhahilat insan KO barbad kar dyta hai" but now most of the youth are in universitis and in govt jobs so peace will come inshallah soon but guns are in our blood lol my son is 4 years old but he can't sleep unless his ( kashnkof) is not sleeping with him lol it looks bad but we need to train our children this way books with guns. Sad but true .

Fudgepacker
23-08-2014, 02:32 AM
Bro some of us in Pakistan,punjab..have actually knowledge of our surroundings.I have 2 csp officers in my family(my father's children ) and my eldest son will in sha Allah be taking the CSS exams with in next three years ,he has already started the studies for it. .. be safe and pray you never ever have to use your guns,,, any thing except for the game and fun of shooting targets and clay ..

I concede, you clearly are the smarter man. I can not refute the arguments you put forth, and all those facts and figures you state are simply indisputable. I don't know what I was thinking... it must have been my childhood experiences clouding my judgement again. We are all grateful to have you speaking on this forum, could you please share more of your knowledge with us?

shahroze
23-08-2014, 12:00 PM
for inside the house the best option is a bullpup in .22lr rifle with very very good quality hallow point bullets ,,, 2nd and last option is any 9mm pistol and not a bit more

i never advocated the use of a .22lr for HD .though I have 1 in every kids room so they can use it if good forbids needed


@seeker, I did not want to crash in but you keep on asking for it man. There is a limit to everything and you just cant say something on an international forum and expect to get away with it, especially when it involves SD HD scenarios.
Well your family members the CSS officers did they recommend a .22lr to you for SD if they did i would like to meet them to improve my knowledge, did they ever use a .22lr in an encounter. The thing is i simply cant digest the fact that you recommended a .22lr with hollow points for SD and whatKrinkov06 said that a person shot 15 times with .22lr will be able to drive to a hospital.
If you don't have any options a rock or a rope can be your best defense option but when you have a variety of 9mm 12gauge and .45 why would you even think of a .22lr............
And come on admit it you are arguing with FudgePacker just for the sake of an argument or you want to score a point but I don't know/have any other way to put this but, you are wrong he is right.
sorry man.

shahroze
23-08-2014, 12:17 PM
no offence but i found 80% of the comments about experience bs.. but i enjoy them ,, i bet there wont be more than 10 members who actually shoots their guns regularly,and even less who have actually shot more than 5000 rounds
How did you come up with this theory now? If that's how you want to play it, I bet you have never experienced a SD situation and you have 0 knowledge in fire arms.
I can tell you for a fact that we have members here who have guns and so many guns that you wont be able to get close to their number in your life time, and they shooting is their food
I may be harsh but that's reality.
To make it easy for you i can name some i hope they don't mind, Abass,Aquarius,skeeter60,Moeen,Achilles,Firepower, Sikandhar Phanwar,Badar janjua,Fasji,FudgePacker,Mianjee These all Senior respected members whom I look up to and sometimes envy them ;) because of their great personalities and collections........
They all have shot Thousands of rounds, I don't know how you can come up with baseless theories all of a sudden.
Sorry if i missed anyone.

Leon
23-08-2014, 12:47 PM
I concede, you clearly are the smarter man. I can not refute the arguments you put forth, and all those facts and figures you state are simply indisputable. I don't know what I was thinking... it must have been my childhood experiences clouding my judgement again. We are all grateful to have you speaking on this forum, could you please share more of your knowledge with us?

Ha ha ha! This is the best answer one can give to that kind of argument.

seeker
24-08-2014, 01:45 AM
How did you come up with this theory now? If that's how you want to play it, I bet you have never experienced a SD situation and you have 0 knowledge in fire arms.
I can tell you for a fact that we have members here who have guns and so many guns that you wont be able to get close to their number in your life time, and they shooting is their food
I may be harsh but that's reality.
To make it easy for you i can name some i hope they don't mind, Abass,Aquarius,skeeter60,Moeen,Achilles,Firepower, Sikandhar Phanwar,Badar janjua,Fasji,FudgePacker,Mianjee These all Senior respected members whom I look up to and sometimes envy them ;) because of their great personalities and collections........
They all have shot Thousands of rounds, I don't know how you can come up with baseless theories all of a sudden.
Sorry if i missed anyone.

thats 13 names u mentioned there and u missed a very important name SAN SYED,about the same number as i said and .. and exactly you elaborated my point.you can add a few more like Denovo and Avais .. :)Actually if you really want to name elite experts,they are in my view from their posts and reviews as i know none of them,names r in random order and not in ranking :) San syed, mooen,denovo,Avais,12 guage, abbas...and a may be a couple more that i dont know yet...mian jee is a charming personality but i think he don't fall in elite experts caz his bullet count is way less than the mentioned above....but he do fall in top of experts category along with 6 or 7 ppl ,, rest are jest like u and me ...
Having guns don't make you an expert of SD..HD .... and bro what i have or who i am is irrelevant ,what matters is an honest advise even if no body likes it or don't understand it . why i mentioned .22lr ...hmmm if u kindly read post no 1,from where the thread started ,,you will have ur answer...
I am out of that age where number scoring matter for ppl ,, i see most of you as younger brothers or as young boys with hot passions and high hopes. my job is to give advise as i also do some dawa work ,, rest is up to you... let me share a few more words ,,,, a home robbery have mostly 2 main scenarios,, 1 you wake up on some noise when some 1 is trying to break in.... for that your trusted shotgun is fine and awesome ,,2nd is that they had already break in and they have some 1 as a hostage ,or they enter the home with a hostage from front door .... now is that shotgun any good at that point ??? or a single bullet rifle have some tiny little chance of use ??????????? and i am or was never talking about an invasion of dushmani type , caz thats a different story and not was the topic of this thread.. and you r very very right i don't have much guns because i am not a gun collector,to me guns are and never were fashion,for me they are tools just tools ,, ... poor me :)

seeker
24-08-2014, 02:02 AM
I concede, you clearly are the smarter man. I can not refute the arguments you put forth, and all those facts and figures you state are simply indisputable. I don't know what I was thinking... it must have been my childhood experiences clouding my judgement again. We are all grateful to have you speaking on this forum, could you please share more of your knowledge with us?

:) :) may Allah (SWT) bless you and give you high status in this life and in next,,, though i can see the point in ur writing what you are actually saying but those how respect elders no matter how wrong they think the elders are ,,, always succeed .

blessed be ,and always open ur mind to new ideas as its the food of brain and first step to knowledge.... always argue wit politeness because filthy language is used by them who don't have the maturity or intelligence to express with better words.. I am also sorry if my words have caused u pain, may Allah (swt)forgive me along with you...just i more advise of dawa not on guns ,,,, in this world we may matter for few,or we may matter for some but in the long run we are irrelevant ........1 example of this is Rt.Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

czman
24-08-2014, 05:05 AM
@ cz bro ,I was talking about choors man ,,not a full assault on home ,, God forbids :)
Be safe and pray that day never comes when u have to use ur guns to protect ur loved ones... caz thats a very very difficult situation .. [/COLOR]

Lol my first post was a joke. My real choice would be , as I said in my second post, a bullpup semi shotgun loaded with slugs and a box ammo storage.in short ranges 12ga really doesn't expand at all, so when you do get a hit at the avg HD scenario the hit will be very similar to a slug/conventional bullet.

As ED has said, hitting targets is hard. Play paintball in a small closed arena and you shall acquire all the knowlage needed for HD and what you would go for.

What I gained was that perfect shots are down right impossible when you are trying not to get shot, and I'd prefer something with more rounds and power compared to the .22 . many a measly squirrel have survived direct hits from .22 HP rounds. Ask any small game hunter. Seeker, your expectations are overblown. You are by far overestimating the power of .22 . getting a single shot on is hard. Why not make it count?

Every single offensive and defense agency , along with LEAs have never used .22lr as their weapon of choice, years of testing and regulations have proved larger calibers to be best. You honestly say just by pulling a theory out of your area you can bend the laws of physics? Might as well use a model rocket to get you to the moon then.

seeker
24-08-2014, 05:51 AM
Lol my first post was a joke. My real choice would be , as I said in my second post, a bullpup semi shotgun loaded with slugs and a box ammo storage.in short ranges 12ga really doesn't expand at all, so when you do get a hit at the avg HD scenario the hit will be very similar to a slug/conventional bullet.

As ED has said, hitting targets is hard. Play paintball in a small closed arena and you shall acquire all the knowlage needed for HD and what you would go for.

What I gained was that perfect shots are down right impossible when you are trying not to get shot, and I'd prefer something with more rounds and power compared to the .22 . many a measly squirrel have survived direct hits from .22 HP rounds. Ask any small game hunter. Seeker, your expectations are overblown. You are by far overestimating the power of .22 . getting a single shot on is hard. Why not make it count?

Every single offensive and defense agency , along with LEAs have never used .22lr as their weapon of choice, years of testing and regulations have proved larger calibers to be best. You honestly say just by pulling a theory out of your area you can bend the laws of physics? Might as well use a model rocket to get you to the moon then.

Ahhhh ,that was a joke ,i thought that was a question between two of them,and i think shooterz asked it a few years back . ,,, so i gave my understanding of it,,, guns r not jokes by the way ........ hmmmm LEA never used .22lr ,,,ever heard of beretta 70 & 71 ??? may be u were too little or not even born than... by all means use a shotgun if you are comfortable with it ,but whats makes you so sure that u would be able to get to ur box of ammo ??? and if you refer to ur 2nd post ,let me please also remind u that i had said that my weapon of choice would be a 9mm carbine and not a .22lr rifle though i have no doubt in its power at close range.. and kindly refer to post no1 of this thread.what i talked about is that .....

czman
24-08-2014, 07:02 AM
Ahhhh ,that was a joke ,i thought that was a question between two of them,and i think shooterz asked it a few years back . ,,, so i gave my understanding of it,,, guns r not jokes by the way ........ hmmmm LEA never used .22lr ,,,ever heard of beretta 70 & 71 ??? may be u were too little or not even born than... by all means use a shotgun if you are comfortable with it ,but whats makes you so sure that u would be able to get to ur box of ammo ??? and if you refer to ur 2nd post ,let me please also remind u that i had said that my weapon of choice would be a 9mm carbine and not a .22lr rifle though i have no doubt in its power at close range.. and kindly refer to post no1 of this thread.what i talked about is that .....

My first post, with the tanks is an obvious joke. Not even one that would scare people , like "Bang bang bang with toys like the big boys at the range" (it was something on the lines of that) that D3AD pulled a while back. Bringing in a tank? How is that realistic in any way? You just seem to be nitpicking at every point you can get your depleted brain cells around.

You never said .22lr was a top choice? Check out shahrozes post, number 209 in this thread. There is your proof. Right there. Take a good look.
The Beretta 70 and 72 ALSO come in 380 and 32 acp.

Now onto your second inquiry. You claim that I cannot find my slugs when I need them. I say, look at the aftermath of the sandy hook and other shootings in North America. As soon as rumors came in that they would be banning guns, guess what the FIRST caliber was that could not be found anymore.; that's right, the famed .22lr was the first to go. More accurately, there were none of it on shelves.and supply could not keep up with demand. Other ammo was available everywhere, albeit at a higher price, so let's ask you buddy.......

What makes you so sure you can find your .22 lr ?

czman
24-08-2014, 07:11 AM
Damn man...I wish I had this for my SD/HD

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dolphin

seeker
24-08-2014, 07:42 AM
My first post, with the tanks is an obvious joke. Not even one that would scare people , like "Bang bang bang with toys like the big boys at the range" (it was something on the lines of that) that D3AD pulled a while back. Bringing in a tank? How is that realistic in any way? You just seem to be nitpicking at every point you can get your depleted brain cells around.

You never said .22lr was a top choice? Check out shahrozes post, number 209 in this thread. There is your proof. Right there. Take a good look.
The Beretta 70 and 72 ALSO come in 380 and 32 acp.

Now onto your second inquiry. You claim that I cannot find my slugs when I need them. I say, look at the aftermath of the sandy hook and other shootings in North America. As soon as rumors came in that they would be banning guns, guess what the FIRST caliber was that could not be found anymore.; that's right, the famed .22lr was the first to go. More accurately, there were none of it on shelves.and supply could not keep up with demand. Other ammo was available everywhere, albeit at a higher price, so let's ask you buddy.......

What makes you so sure you can find your .22 lr ?

:) i thought you were saying that u were shooterz and you started the thread,i missed the tank stuff ,my bad .. but i was talking about the very first post from which this thread started.'Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?''... where in post 209 i say u must use a .22lr ?? did I,, my youngest kid is 13,,what should i put there a rocket launcher :) though i have instructed them to never ever come out of their rooms if some thing like this ever happens God forbids.. and i do trust .22lr shot from a full barrel rifle ,u may not, and no 1 is forcing you.... Bretta 70 and 72 were in .22lr and were used by Musad at some time and also of air police or what ever they called it ... ... oh man and i am not talking about getting ammo from market ,i was putting forth the scenario of not being able to get more rounds than are loaded in a gun :) :frusty: ,... you kids are impossible ,surfing internet and all that blast of written knowledge has messed you up ...... they used to say once , with age comes experience and experience brings wisdom .. now internet brings knowledge at 4G and little brains gets fused :) .. sorry if i offended you but please get ur facts straight before you make big claims....

czman
24-08-2014, 09:50 AM
:) i thought you were saying that u were shooterz and you started the thread,i missed the tank stuff ,my bad .. but i was talking about the very first post from which this thread started.'Which is the best for HD? .22 semiauto rifle or magzine semiauto shotgun?''... where in post 209 i say u must use a .22lr ?? did I,, my youngest kid is 13,,what should i put there a rocket launcher :) though i have instructed them to never ever come out of their rooms if some thing like this ever happens God forbids.. and i do trust .22lr shot from a full barrel rifle ,u may not, and no 1 is forcing you.... Bretta 70 and 72 were in .22lr and were used by Musad at some time and also of air police or what ever they called it ... ... oh man and i am not talking about getting ammo from market ,i was putting forth the scenario of not being able to get more rounds than are loaded in a gun :) :frusty: ,... you kids are impossible ,surfing internet and all that blast of written knowledge has messed you up ...... they used to say once , with age comes experience and experience brings wisdom .. now internet brings knowledge at 4G and little brains gets fused :) .. sorry if i offended you but please get ur facts straight before you make big claims....
You said, as Shah rose has quoted your words in post 209, that he posted that the best choice would be a .22 in a bullpup rifle.

I was about to include your Israeli massad as a user or .22 but decided against it, as it is neither a defence , offence or Lea , it happens to be a INTELLIGENCE agency which is strictly neither a defensive, offensive or LEA agency and hence was not included.They used it in a completely different capacity then the HD situation it is needed in. Stop flinging fecal matter into the argument to try and make your point with irrelevant information.

Okay, fine, assuming .22 is in infinite supply how exactly can you put more ammo then the fixed capacity of the magazine and chamber in a gun? Please tell me, bending the laws of physics is a very useful ability. Loading a box of shells in one weapon is just as simple as loading a magazine into another .

If the event you are flapping your gums over is the non availability of any more magazines, in your home during a robbery, your average .22 lr rifle holds 6 rounds, in the case of the ruger 10/22. Your average .22 pistol, let's take the Walther p 22 as a example, holds 10. Your average 9mm holds 15 rounds. In the case of a very, very common pistol, a glock 17, a max of 18 rounds is possible with the standard magazine.

Nobody is talking about your irritating kids. It's .22 lr vs others right now. My facts are straight buddy, completely bug free, but your argument is full of holes.

The only kid here is you? You think you have the right to call another member a kid when you cannot even muster the time and effort to type properly? Or even research your argument? Your diarrhea of the mouth needs to be taken care of.

Little, immature child, age is not a guarantee of wisdom just as age is no proof of wealth ,good character , knowledge and conformation of a well tempered personality. That quote was written and said in the old times, when men were expected to prove their salt, and lived up to be great because the harsh realities of life forced them to. With modern luxuries, a man is no longer tempered in that manner. This is the internet. Your worth here is judged by knowledge , and your character along with how it stands up to the test of time..

Fudgepacker
24-08-2014, 01:14 PM
...Stop flinging fecal matter into the argument to try and make your point with irrelevant information...

Nobody is talking about your irritating kids. It's .22 lr vs others right now. My facts are straight buddy, completely bug free, but your argument is full of holes.

The only kid here is you? You think you have the right to call another member a kid when you cannot even muster the time and effort to type properly? Or even research your argument? Your diarrhea of the mouth needs to be taken care of.

Little, immature child, age is not a guarantee of wisdom just as age is no proof of wealth ,good character , knowledge and conformation of a well tempered personality. That quote was written and said in the old times, when men were expected to prove their salt, and lived up to be great because the harsh realities of life forced them to. With modern luxuries, a man is no longer tempered in that manner. This is the internet. Your worth here is judged by knowledge , and your character along with how it stands up to the test of time..
:lol: LMAO! I've washed my hands of this matter so I will not dirty them again, and czman, although I don't exactly agree with everything you say either; damn, that was a good come back!

A wise man once said: "Never argue with idiots... They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience"

seeker
24-08-2014, 07:43 PM
:lol: LMAO! I've washed my hands of this matter so I will not dirty them again, and czman, although I don't exactly agree with everything you say either; damn, that was a good come back!

A wise man once said: "Never argue with idiots... They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience"


very well said fude, and i think if some 1 cant understand the post no 1 of this thread ,he did fall under the category of stupid even if it is me ,,,, I thought more of you,but any ways its internet,,talks can be very deceiving . :) be safe be happy..

seeker
24-08-2014, 08:36 PM
You said, as Shah rose has quoted your words in post 209, that he posted that the best choice would be a .22 in a bullpup rifle.

I was about to include your Israeli massad as a user or .22 but decided against it, as it is neither a defence , offence or Lea , it happens to be a INTELLIGENCE agency which is strictly neither a defensive, offensive or LEA agency and hence was not included.They used it in a completely different capacity then the HD situation it is needed in. Stop flinging fecal matter into the argument to try and make your point with irrelevant information.

Okay, fine, assuming .22 is in infinite supply how exactly can you put more ammo then the fixed capacity of the magazine and chamber in a gun? Please tell me, bending the laws of physics is a very useful ability. Loading a box of shells in one weapon is just as simple as loading a magazine into another .

If the event you are flapping your gums over is the non availability of any more magazines, in your home during a robbery, your average .22 lr rifle holds 6 rounds, in the case of the ruger 10/22. Your average .22 pistol, let's take the Walther p 22 as a example, holds 10. Your average 9mm holds 15 rounds. In the case of a very, very common pistol, a glock 17, a max of 18 rounds is possible with the standard magazine.

Nobody is talking about your irritating kids. It's .22 lr vs others right now. My facts are straight buddy, completely bug free, but your argument is full of holes.

The only kid here is you? You think you have the right to call another member a kid when you cannot even muster the time and effort to type properly? Or even research your argument? Your diarrhea of the mouth needs to be taken care of.

Little, immature child, age is not a guarantee of wisdom just as age is no proof of wealth ,good character , knowledge and conformation of a well tempered personality. That quote was written and said in the old times, when men were expected to prove their salt, and lived up to be great because the harsh realities of life forced them to. With modern luxuries, a man is no longer tempered in that manner. This is the internet. Your worth here is judged by knowledge , and your character along with how it stands up to the test of time..

"Little, immature child", yes you r very right ,what i was thinking of giving my advise to some 1 who don't need it ,and than i was giving it with out researching my argument ,stupid me , my bad i should have researched my experience first .... so i should not have posted wrong facts .. my bad ,very very sorry ... next time i certainly will google my lifes experiences .. :) thanks for your kind guidance .....about yourself

Aquarius
24-08-2014, 09:53 PM
lolz.. now is the time to post your own pictures instead of weapon & lets see who is mature or immature.

The picture should be Passport sized with blue background.. and should be attested with 1st class officer.

1stranger
24-08-2014, 10:08 PM
lolz.. now is the time to post your own pictures instead of weapon & lets see who is mature or immature.

The picture should be Passport sized with blue background.. and should be attested with 1st class officer.

Aquarius brother, ....Lolz....

@ all the three parties... comon guys... let this be over...

Which gun is best for HD is a subjective question, for some scenarios may be a rifle will be better... while for others a shotgun may proves more appropriate, and for some situations even a simple kitchen knife may helps one in defending his home... So the best is which works for one at the right time.

So keep whatever you feel comfortable with. And remember every defensive gun or weapon is merely a tool... real and true protector is Alllah SWT... so only rely on Him and always ask for His protection.

May Allah SWT keep.us all.safe, blessed and on the right path. Aameen

czman
24-08-2014, 10:45 PM
Going any further is a waste of my time.
I'll take the route that fudge, shahroze and others have has adopted and leave.

For the record, this was not a "presentation" of opinions. It was a argument in the guise of a debate. How can one expect to have a good one with a entity not even fluent in the language?
Your constant calling out of irrelevant points has withered my patience to the thickness of a atom.

You take care of your....tribe in your own way, and we shall tend to ourselves.

But once again, for the record, here is the falsified (either by yourself or by not knowing ) facts that you have laid down up till now.

1.) Shotguns are banned in war.
Proved wrong by fudgepacker, the internet , and every single ww2 history book. I personally have a few which state explicitly the falsehood of this info. Shotguns were used in vietmam, and are part of many armies small arms today.

2.) Fudgepacker and his supposed childhood trauma. I can imagine if he has any, ED and Sand have had sonething to do with it, but no where did he state anything about a bad experience with a shotgun. In fact he was asking you to prove your points, which you failed to do.

3.) When asked to prove your with you became defensive and hid behind d a wall of "proper language" and "reapect" which you wouldn't need to, had your points be true and prove able.

4.) You apply information where is it irrelevant. I said defence, offence or Lea, yet you think just because the mossad uses .22lr it somehow falls into that category.

sadatpk
24-08-2014, 11:20 PM
Going any further is a waste of my time.
I'


You take care of your....tribe in your own way o my dear ,,,r u leaving us just because u consider us bit Weak in linguistics ,,,,,,,ok goood bye for ever,,,,,,I can expect from ur
Syntax ,u r man of words and shall leave us

czman
24-08-2014, 11:59 PM
o my dear ,,,r u leaving us just because u consider us bit Weak in linguistics ,,,,,,,ok goood bye for ever,,,,,,I can expect from ur
Syntax ,u r man of words and shall leave us

I was talking about seeker brother, I have no issue with you.
The linguistics in itself do not bother me, it's just that someone who claims to be a know it all and everyone else is a child yet cannot even communicate with elegance bothers me....rather ironic is it not?

seeker
25-08-2014, 12:16 AM
lolz.. now is the time to post your own pictures instead of weapon & lets see who is mature or immature.

The picture should be Passport sized with blue background.. and should be attested with 1st class officer.

:) :) no need man ,,though I am over 50 ,but i shall from now call all of you as UNCLES,,, i did not knew ppl here have age issues ...

seeker
25-08-2014, 12:23 AM
Aquarius brother, ....Lolz....

@ all the three parties... comon guys... let this be over...

Which gun is best for HD is a subjective question, for some scenarios may be a rifle will be better... while for others a shotgun may proves more appropriate, and for some situations even a simple kitchen knife may helps one in defending his home... So the best is which works for one at the right time.

So keep whatever you feel comfortable with. And remember every defensive gun or weapon is merely a tool... real and true protector is Alllah SWT... so only rely on Him and always ask for His protection.

May Allah SWT keep.us all.safe, blessed and on the right path. Aameen

Jazak Allah,, for your nice effort ,,,our words show who we are and from where we belong,,, may Allah (SWT) bless you and your parents.. :)

Krinkov06
25-08-2014, 02:33 AM
Oye bas kar do larna myry bhaio........stop fighting ....jis k pass jitny pysy hain mujy btao main home defense k liay achi gun ly dun ga ous main .lol goli chalani hai na ??? har gun say chal jay gi .....daran hota hai maarna nai parta ziada tar.....plz .....

seeker
25-08-2014, 02:38 AM
Going any further is a waste of my time.
I'll take the route that fudge, shahroze and others have has adopted and leave.

For the record, this was not a "presentation" of opinions. It was a argument in the guise of a debate. How can one expect to have a good one with a entity not even fluent in the language?
Your constant calling out of irrelevant points has withered my patience to the thickness of a atom.

You take care of your....tribe in your own way, and we shall tend to ourselves.

But once again, for the record, here is the falsified (either by yourself or by not knowing ) facts that you have laid down up till now.

1.) Shotguns are banned in war.
Proved wrong by fudgepacker, the internet , and every single ww2 history book. I personally have a few which state explicitly the falsehood of this info. Shotguns were used in vietmam, and are part of many armies small arms today.

2.) Fudgepacker and his supposed childhood trauma. I can imagine if he has any, ED and Sand have had sonething to do with it, but no where did he state anything about a bad experience with a shotgun. In fact he was asking you to prove your points, which you failed to do.

3.) When asked to prove your with you became defensive and hid behind d a wall of "proper language" and "reapect" which you wouldn't need to, had your points be true and prove able.

4.) You apply information where is it irrelevant. I said defence, offence or Lea, yet you think just because the mossad uses .22lr it somehow falls into that category.

Sorry to Aquarius,and 1 stranger bro ,but this clarification is not for CZ,, its just need to be done ,caz accused need to answer,, its for any 1 new to thread ,,,,,

"to the thickness of a atom" very good linguistics... well done........ yes there r errors in my typing caz i am not a computer or note pad expert ,I type with 1 finger after finding the letters on key board.. about ur raised points...
1) I never said shotguns are banned in war,, nothing is if u can fire a nuke,u certainly can use a shotgun .... i used past tense in my quote ,and i explained it as i remembered ,fudge had better and fresh knowledge of it than me ,but its not false ,i just don't remember the word by word facts ,as i said fudge said it .
2) its none of ur concern ,nor did u understood the underlined meaning ,nor its repeatable ,nor i want to explain it .it was between him and me ,and thing of past
3) again signs of ur great linguistics....... ''when asked to prove your with you'' and "reapect" ???? i must say my english is pretty bad because i dont understand what is ur point... i assume u r saying when asked to prove my point i became defensive .. when was i aggressive bro ,i was just explaining my point nor proving it or i was forcing it on any 1... i shall try to explain with best words that i could find...... '' I am saying that i think a shotgun is too powerful to be used inside a home with kids, a less lethal gun in my opinion is a better choice in side the house'' and i said time and aging with all my heart that you can use a shotgun if you are comfortable with it ,,,and i think a semi auto is better for both shotgun or a rifle for HD... and i still say with all my heart that this is the most honest advise i can give with my experience . your experiences may be different ,because i cant risk a slug bouncing back from a wall or floor ( ricochet)..
4) if you consider Mossad don't falls in the category ,its ok ,u said no 1 uses a .22lr. I gave you a name ...

Bro no bodies knowledge is perfect ,, learn to chill ,learn to take opposition even if its so called or ur own made ... for general viewing ,you said .22lr mags are of short capacity ,i shall try to upload my mags ,which is a 20 bullet each,making them 40 in total..... i hope it gets load :) caz i dont know how though i had uploaded before but they uploaded accidently 32029

seeker
25-08-2014, 03:11 AM
Oye bas kar do larna myry bhaio........stop fighting ....jis k pass jitny pysy hain mujy btao main home defense k liay achi gun ly dun ga ous main .lol goli chalani hai na ??? har gun say chal jay gi .....daran hota hai maarna nai parta ziada tar.....plz .....

++1 ,, i been saying this too ,,pray it never comes to it .. but my respected brothers are so eager to kill the intruder that it makes me shiver by even thinking about it . may Allah (SWT) keep us and our loved ones safe and sound. Aameen
aur ker diya bus :) thx

Krinkov06
25-08-2014, 03:24 AM
++1 ,, i been saying this too ,,pray it never comes to it .. but my respected brothers are so eager to kill the intruder that it makes me shiver by even thinking about it . may Allah (SWT) keep us and our loved ones safe and sound. Aameen
aur ker diya bus :) thx
Ameen ...bro its very easy to say " thok dun ga mar dun ga" muj say poucho jis ka samny mary hain jis ki goli say mary hain....Allah mujy wo time phir kabi na dikhay ... let me give you an example its in urdu for better understanding " Jab ap gun aim karty ho to ap k damag main sirf ek baat chal rahi hoti hai " es ny myri gari py firing ki hai myry sath ka banda mar dia hai" then you shoot first bullet and that hits the human body infront of you and you know that i hit him jab wo banda girta hai or ap gusy main 5 6 fire ouper nichy karty ho or dekhy ho ous ko lagyty huy or ous ki body ki movement and voices coming out of his mouth on every hit then you realize ye main kya kar raha hun ....kabi note karna koi b insan ho goli marty marty rukta lazmi hai ek dafa or wohi time hota ho jab ap sochty ho k yaaar banda mar dia????? os k baad jab ap k samny wo banda hilta khoshish karta ek jaga py ruk k thanda ho jata hai wo time kisi kayamat say kam nai hota insan py ....road py jata hua ous ka blood ap ko sony nai dyta kafi din tak jab tak court ya wo family ap ko maaf na kar dy ..... ye sirf suna raha hun apny dekha nai Allah na kary ap kabi kisi apny ki body outha k roty huy gari main dalo or sary rasty sochty huy ghar ki taraf jao k es ka ghar walun ko kysy btaun ga k wo nai raha ....Maan baap mar jaty hain jawan beyta mara hua dekh k .es liay koi chor b ho to yar puri koshish karo k dara k bhaga do kiun k chor aksar jawan bety hoty hain kisi k or chor majboor hota hia professional nai ..han daku ho to mat choro kiun k tum choro gy to wo kisi or ko luty ga...i have killed 7 robbers with my own hands .mujy koi afsos nai kiun k wo khud b katil thy....afsos ek bandy ka tha but ous ki family or bachun ka sara kharcha main outha raha hun for last 3 years and agy b outhaun ga inshallah....... goli chalana bohot asan hai but ous ko chala k apny zameer ki adalt bhugatna bohooooooot mushkil hai ...ye court kacheri to banda bhugat he lyta hai ........zameer mar dyta hai bandy ko......

1stranger
25-08-2014, 05:57 AM
@ Krinkov06

You are right... killing an innocent is a big big No... there is a Hadith of Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W. of the meaning that whoever kills (an innocent) man kills whole mankind....!! (Or as stated by Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W.)
Look what we have been tought by our beautiful religion...

Actually its a moment's anger or mistake that ruins the life of killer... I agree in a sense that one can go through with these courts and police etc... but conscience and most importantly the fear of answering your act on the day of judgement haunts you and makes you sleepless...

May Allah SWT keep us all safe and on the right path. Aameen

Krinkov06
25-08-2014, 07:51 AM
@ Krinkov06

You are right... killing an innocent is a big big No... there is a Hadith of Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W. of the meaning that whoever kills (an innocent) man kills whole mankind....!! (Or as stated by Holy Prophet Muhammad S.A.W.W.)
Look what we have been tought by our beautiful religion...

Actually its a moment's anger or mistake that ruins the life of killer... I agree in a sense that one can go through with these courts and police etc... but conscience and most importantly the fear of answering your act on the day of judgement haunts you and makes you sleepless...

May Allah SWT keep us all safe and on the right path. Aameen

Ameen bro he was not innocent he shot my first cousin and he died at the spot we were coming back from a wedding party and he and his friends started firing at our jeep with open Automatic weapons. 3 of them got killed in cross fire but he was about to surrender in a split second he was about to rise his hand but at the same moment i squeezed the trigger and bam bam bam ...all left 11 bullets went of my AK 6 hit him and you know the rest....i always thought " he was put his hands up i had to control my anger i had to capture him and put him in jail but time was gone. but Allah J.S.H said if the family forgive you and you pay Qasas your clean i paid 50 Lac to his mother and still taking care of his children by paying school fees giving them free coaching and taking care of their food and everything untill they start doing their own jobs or business. he was a poor man and used by a rich bastard of village against us.i don't want his children do the same. i cried alot when i came to know he took only 15K from that man to attack us and got killed coz he didn't had anything to eat at his home( we rich guys don't understand this trust me we can't) we are born in homes having millions of dollars in account we never faced those conditions.after his mother forgave me my dad took that very AK and put inside a bhati and melted that down and throw the iron in a river by saying " this iron have human blood on it i don't want it inside my home or in you hands" he is a very religious person he never even shot a bird he was and he is still against my hunting too :)
About islam and Prophet mohammad S.A.W.W ...no doubt about it whatever he said is not questionable at all i prefer death before questing a Mqbool hadees.. May Allah forgive me .Pray for me. i left everything bad i was doing in my early youth now i'm doing my own business of Cloth and sugar left weapon business and running to free schools for poor children...i want to change the mentality of youth of my area so we syeds gain our respect back we are not suppose to do what we are doing...fighting ,killings , dushmani for generations.No we are not made for this we are generation of teachers preachers, and that is our way......

1stranger
25-08-2014, 08:20 AM
@ krinkov06

May Allah SWT grant you success in your nobel efforts... and may we become a true Islamic welfare society as a whole. Aameen

1stranger
25-08-2014, 08:27 AM
o my dear ,,,r u leaving us just because u consider us bit Weak in linguistics ,,,,,,,ok goood bye for ever,,,,,,I can expect from ur
Syntax ,u r man of words and shall leave us

:D Lolzz.... Sadatpk brother :thumb:

Denovo87
25-08-2014, 10:09 AM
HELLLOOOOOO ......... whats going on here ? Dont have energy to read all posts but it looks mature people are fighting without giving a damn to what other is saying ;)

Krinkov06
25-08-2014, 10:17 AM
@ krinkov06

May Allah SWT grant you success in your nobel efforts... and may we become a true Islamic welfare society as a whole. Aameen

Ameen :) Thanks brother.

Krinkov06
25-08-2014, 10:17 AM
HELLLOOOOOO ......... whats going on here ? Dont have energy to read all posts but it looks mature people are fighting without giving a damn to what other is saying ;)

now its stopped . May Allah help us .LOL

1stranger
25-08-2014, 12:55 PM
HELLLOOOOOO ......... whats going on here ? Dont have energy to read all posts but it looks mature people are fighting without giving a damn to what other is saying ;)

Barri daer ke maharbaan aatay aatay... :);)

It seems '3rd umpire' intervened quite late..... :) :)

mohsin.mashhadi
25-08-2014, 01:02 PM
Danny bro. Bohet maza aa rha tha, it was veruly entertaining.(Bohet dair kr di meherban aty aty) u r too late Danny sir g. :lol: hehehe.
Salam krinkov shah geee:p

mohsin.mashhadi
25-08-2014, 01:04 PM
Sorry 1st-ranger bro. I read ur post after posting mine. Didnt mean to copy u .

czman
25-08-2014, 01:24 PM
*Yawn*
I said ive washed my hands of the matter. No point fighting when neither side will concede. Im not going back to the same dark pit over and over.

@Krinkov06

Could you more accurately describe what happened?

From what i make of it, a man was taken advantage of and make to attack you. You killed him, and took care of his family ( a extraordinarily noble thing to do. I commend you. Not many people have it in them to do so. )
But in your first line,
"bro he was not innocent she shot my first cousin"
Who is she? Was their a woman who was against you, killed your cousin and sent that man after you?
Or was it just a typo?

1stranger
25-08-2014, 01:47 PM
Sorry 1st-ranger bro. I read ur post after posting mine. Didnt mean to copy u .

No problem brother :)

sadatpk
26-08-2014, 12:04 AM
:D Lolzz.... Sadatpk brother :thumb:
Thanx 1stranger,

Krinkov06
26-08-2014, 12:30 AM
Barri daer ke maharbaan aatay aatay... :);)

It seems '3rd umpire' intervened quite late..... :) :)
hahahahahahahahaahahahahahhahahahaahhahahaahahahah ahahahhaha:hail:

Krinkov06
26-08-2014, 12:32 AM
*Yawn*
I said ive washed my hands of the matter. No point fighting when neither side will concede. Im not going back to the same dark pit over and over.

@Krinkov06

Could you more accurately describe what happened?

From what i make of it, a man was taken advantage of and make to attack you. You killed him, and took care of his family ( a extraordinarily noble thing to do. I commend you. Not many people have it in them to do so. )
But in your first line,
"bro he was not innocent she shot my first cousin"
Who is she? Was their a woman who was against you, killed your cousin and sent that man after you?
Or was it just a typo?

Oh sorry ..its he shot. not she LOL sorry .. and i wrote whole story of bro. down there. Thanks for appriciating bro that incedent chaged me and my whole life .....i was bad bad bad guy back then....

Krinkov06
26-08-2014, 12:37 AM
Danny bro. Bohet maza aa rha tha, it was veruly entertaining.(Bohet dair kr di meherban aty aty) u r too late Danny sir g. :lol: hehehe.
Salam krinkov shah geee:p

Walikum-salam Kazmi saab :)

Enigmatic Desires
26-08-2014, 02:48 PM
Oh sorry ..its he shot. not she LOL sorry .. and i wrote whole story of bro. down there. Thanks for appriciating bro that incedent chaged me and my whole life .....i was bad bad bad guy back then....

U seem like a decent individual. What I am interested in in the whole debate is what it felt like being shot 15 times. Where were u hit? How did U cope wiht the resulting panic blood loss. How long did U get to the hospital etc etc. How did U make a full recovery.. etc etc.