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Skeeter60
13-08-2010, 01:35 PM
I have often observed that members write about trajectories in a sort of guess- timate way and often say < I THINK THE DROP AT 800 yds is 20 inches >

This has prompted me to initiate a post on trajectories and I am sure the experienced Rifle men will come forward and enlighten the members.

Trajectories are a result of Bullets Ballistic Co-efficient <this takes into account the bullet shape, Caliber and weight > and muzzle velocity, atmospheric conditions and some other factors.

Hunters are basically not concerned with these but having knowledge about all these factors is enlightening.

The trajectory of a rifle also depends at the height of sights above bore line and THE RANGE AT WHICH IT IS ZEROED.

For Example a .308/ 7.62 x 51 bullet is as under; ( it will vary with the MV and the BC of the bullet )
RANGE TRAJECTORY WIND DRIFT IN 10 MPH WIND
100 yds Zeroed 0.6 ins
200 yds (-) 2.87 ins 2.6 ins
300 (-) 11.2 ins 6 ins
400 (-) 25.6 ins 11 ins
500 (-) 46.9 ins 17.8 ins
600 (-) 76 ins 26.5 ins
700 (-) 114.9 ins 37.5 ins
800 (-) 161 ins 50.9

The above figures are taken from the Sniper Manual, the Cartridges of the World and Long Range Rifle Shooting manual.
There will be slight differences due to atmospheric conditions and difference in MV or weapon used but will be very small so let this be the guide line. The 270, and the 30-06 will be very slightly better and the .300 magnums and the 7mm magnum will be significantly flatter.
In the light of the above we will now view the posts of our friends who shoot small targets at very long ranges and should guide our brothers who endeavour to take long shots. Remember a good hunter is the one who gets close by stalking.

Apalo
13-08-2010, 03:06 PM
I am in the process of learing and here I have some more information to understand, I hope some stupid questions ( due to lack of knowledge) will be tolerated :)

ARlover
13-08-2010, 10:36 PM
@skeeter60 sir i read ur post sir few days back im on mallick&sons im for .270 but shop owner asked me .243 is beter then .270 sir im dont know about this Trajectories and drop i want a rifle for allround hunt sir plz give ur opnion wts best 30-06 .270 or 243 or 7mm remor meg

wasifali89
13-08-2010, 10:46 PM
i think that we need a whole book ask skeeter any questions as this post needs to be deciphered for myself and my father is doing that

Skeeter60
14-08-2010, 12:23 AM
@skeeter60 sir i read ur post sir few days back im on mallick&sons im for .270 but shop owner asked me .243 is beter then .270 sir im dont know about this Trajectories and drop i want a rifle for allround hunt sir plz give ur opnion wts best 30-06 .270 or 243 or 7mm remor meg

All calibers are good. They have some advantages and some dis advantages.
There is no BEST rifle and no BEST caliber.
A caliber meets and suits certain requirements depending on the game to be hunted and the terrain where you want to hunt.

If you are going to hunt under 200 meters range and the animal is the size of a Hog deer, a Black buck etc the 243 is good.
If you want to take the same animals and also Urial at real long ranges the 270 and the 30-06 are hard to beat.
If you want Himalayan Ibex and and other mountain game than again the 270, the 30-06 and 7mm Rem Magnum are very good.
The 7mm Rem Mag has more authority and better wind deviation and flatter trajectories , they all recoil the same to me. I have never found any difference in recoil of the three calibers .

It is a matter of personal preference. The 243 should not be used beyond 200 meters on game the size of Urial and bigger animals.

You have a great choice of bullets in the 30-06 ( 55 grain accelerator, 130, 145, 150, 162, 165, 180 190, 200, 220 and a new 250 grainer). These are capable of taking down all game in Pakistan.

In the 270 you have only one 130 grain bullet, although the 150 grain bullet is there but it has a poor trajectory when compared with the 130 and again the 140 is a compromise bullet. How ever the 130 grain bullet performs extremely well on big game with a fairly flat trajectory at long ranges.

In the 7mm Rem Mag again you have a good choice of bullets from 130 to 175 grains ( 120, 130 139, 140, 145, 150, 154, 160 , 162, 170, 175 and even a new 190 grainer) and is very effective and very flat as compared to the 270 and the 30-06 with bullets of comparable weights and meets desired requirements with much more authority at longer ranges.

It is a matter of choice . I have tried to explain very briefly the characteristics of these calibers but there is much more to it and it can only be discussed around a log fire in a hunting camp where each one will debate his favourite caliber is the best.

As I said earlier all calibers have good points . It is a matter of your choice based on the type and size of game you want to take.

I hope I have been of help AR Lover. I think you can now go to sleep dreaming and just as double minded as before as I have only given you unbiased facts

Aquarius
14-08-2010, 12:32 AM
Great information Sir Skeeter.. thanks for sharing.... :)

ARlover
14-08-2010, 12:44 AM
Skeeter60 sir thanks for info sir one more thing is 200 meters is safe distance for bigger animals sir mean whats safe distance for hunt sir this coming winter i plan my first hunt so want info from Expert like u thanks

Apalo
14-08-2010, 12:54 AM
nice information :)
Sir once again a very basic question, may be stupid as well.
as you tell us about different bullets with the grains, my question is what is the purpose of the grains, like 130 grain bullet of a 7mm is best of 100m and 190 is for 500m or other wise or any other purpose.
or correct question, why we have bullets in different grains ?

MianTaimur
14-08-2010, 02:31 AM
@Skeeter60

Thank your sir for a thorough and detailed share !

Though I am more of a shotgun guy, but for the last few months, I have been intreeged by rifles and have been followling up on various informations availible on the net and guidence from a few experienced hunters.
Calculating trajectory on diffrent ranges and then shooting targets is very facinating. I am sure after doing the math and hitting the target must be very satisfying for an individual.

Sir you mentioned above, that the trejectory of a 7mm Mag would be flatter then a 30-06 & 270

1) Does this mean that the drop would be lower at a longer distance ?
2) Is it safe to say that a 7mm Mag , is a alround option for Hunting in Pakistan ?
3) What is the maximum range of effectiveness for a 7mm Mag on a bigger animal ?

Turumti
14-08-2010, 02:32 AM
Col Sahab, Excellent post!! What is your opinion of the 7x64 Brenneke?

Gilani
14-08-2010, 02:36 AM
It's a treat to see a post full of knowledge and experience. Such posts are in quite a short supply nowadays. :)

Thanks for the effort Skeeter60 Sir.



Sir once again a very basic question, may be stupid as well.
as you tell us about different bullets with the grains, my question is what is the purpose of the grains, like 130 grain bullet of a 7mm is best of 100m and 190 is for 500m or other wise or any other purpose.
or correct question, why we have bullets in different grains ?
Apalo brother, IMHO, no question that has been asked with the purpose of enhancing one's knowledge, is a stupid question. :)

I am no expert on the subject but I can share some basic thoughts. I am sure you know that a grain is the smallest unit of measurement for weight in British system. There are 437.5 grain in an ounce. or 1 gram = 15.43 grains

Ammo manufacturers keep experimenting with different shapes, sizes and weights of bullets in a particular caliber, in their quest for achieving optimum performance with regards to factors like accuracy, ballistic performance, range, penetration power, stopping power, weapon functioning etc. Hence bullets of different grainage in the same caliber.

Standard grainage and shape of a bullet in a particular caliber provides a balanced or compromised performance with regard to most of the above mentioned factors. For achieving outstanding performance in any of the above factor (which at the same time may result in a compromised performance in some other factor), one may have to change the bullet weight, shape and even size alongwith the quantity / quality of propellant inside the cartridge. eg, a bullet designed to achieve max range and penetration may fall comparatively short on accuracy and vice versa. Specialist shooters therefore need to have this knowledge that which cartridge in a particular caliber gives optimum performance in events like say long range hunting, long range sniping, precision shooting etc etc. For most of us, standard grainage bullets would do the job :)

The exact details / effect would differ for different grainage ammos in different calibers and would require a comprehensive study on the subject. I am sure experts like Skeeter60 sahib have much more to offer on the subject. Just my two cents on a subject which is as deep as an ocean :)

MianTaimur
14-08-2010, 03:28 AM
It's a treat to see a post full of knowledge and experience. Such posts are in quite a short supply nowadays. :)
[:)

:) ;) :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

Skeeter60
14-08-2010, 07:47 AM
Col Sahab, Excellent post!! What is your opinion of the 7x64 Brenneke?

A most wonderful German Cartridge which was popular long before the 7mm rem mag in Europe. It is slightly slower than the 7mm Rem Magnum but has a great edge over the 270.
The 7 x 64 Brennake is considered to damage less meat in a game animal while dispatching it as efficiently as the 7mm Rem Mag. This is the opinion held by big game hunters in Europe. The Rem is very slightly flatter in trajectory

Skeeter60
14-08-2010, 07:53 AM
Mian Taimur

The answer to your first two questions is YES
The effective range depends on the accuracy of your rifle and , your ability to shoot, and the wind condition, Wind is the biggest enemy of a long range shooter.
I can not lay down the range but I would love to shoot well under 300 yds, prefer ably under 200 and enjoy the art and craft of stalking and getting close to the trophy . That is where the fun is in hunting.
I am capable of very long shots but I avoid them as much as possible and proud of the shots I took at very close range by stalking

Dr Hanif Malik
14-08-2010, 09:35 AM
@sir skeeter,nice info for the long shooter :)

MianTaimur
14-08-2010, 03:26 PM
Mian Taimur

The answer to your first two questions is YES
The effective range depends on the accuracy of your rifle and , your ability to shoot, and the wind condition, Wind is the biggest enemy of a long range shooter.
I can not lay down the range but I would love to shoot well under 300 yds, prefer ably under 200 and enjoy the art and craft of stalking and getting close to the trophy . That is where the fun is in hunting.
I am capable of very long shots but I avoid them as much as possible and proud of the shots I took at very close range by stalking

Sir thank you for your reply, clearing my basic concept and identifying a suitable calibre for all purpose hunting in Pakistan.
Wind surely plays a major role for a long range shooter. If I may ask, incase of unsuitable wind condition, I understand the bullet is going to drop more, If one has to take on a target in such condition, what is the thumb rule for trejectory ? Or is it purely on the basis of judgement, experience, knowing your rifle and calibre ?
You are correct about stalking and getting close to the trophy before shooting it. I have seen it on various hunting videos on youtube aswel. But if I may ask, isnt it more fun to take a calculated shot from a longer distance, checking the trejectory , wind pressure etc ? My question might sound a little lame, as I have never experienced big game hunting , just want to have a clear concept.

Kakar
14-08-2010, 06:46 PM
Sorry for intruding Mian sahab but both the approaches have their own fun. No doubt that longer distance successful shots have a lot of charm but having said that, taking down the animal at a close range through the art of stalking is a lot of fun too. Just try it on a small level. We all know how clever crows are and that they fly away as soon as you point a gun at them. Try to get close to a sitting crow by hiding yourself behind trees or peep from a window at close range and then take a shot.

I personally feel that this approach makes you feel that you have really hunted something because it includes the core essentials of hunting i.e stalking and giving a chance to the animal to run away if it feels threatened.

Skeeter60
14-08-2010, 08:31 PM
MIAN TAIMUR SAHAB

Wind has no effect on TRAJECTORY ,it is mother earth alone , Gravity causes trajectory and it is a constant

Long Range Shooting for Fun should be done on steel plates or large paper targets , you will learn every thing as to where your bullets are going and why. On game you will fire only one or two shots and never know where the bullets are going , on targets you can fire and learn a d practice a lot also you will not have a guilty conscious of wounding ; as often animals are wounded and a die a miserable slow death in bushes due to reckless long range shooting.

MianTaimur
14-08-2010, 11:25 PM
you will not have a guilty conscious of wounding ; as often animals are wounded and a die a miserable slow death in bushes due to reckless long range shooting.

Makes alot of sence ! So it is the ethical dilema , why long range shooting is not opted for hunting.

As for prior subject discussion ofcourse , trajectory is caused by gravitational pull and wind causes the bullet to sway from its target !! Concept clear SIR thankyou

@kakar

Brother you are far more experiecned then me in handling rifles and hunting. Your intrusions are always welcome :)

Apalo
14-08-2010, 11:42 PM
@Gilani Bhi, thank you so much for answering my question, the points are clear now.
@Sir Skeeter, Karkar sab and Mian sab
thank you for your informative discussion as I am learing alot form all of you :)
@Kakar Sab
Your idea to hunt a crow is very fasinating and also very good to learn the hunting tecniches. I love to shoot for a long range but at this time its not possible as i dont have a long rang and money as well, so now i will concentrat on the crows :)

Kakar
15-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Thank you Mian Taimur and Apalo brothers..

Skeeter sahab... No doubt that gravity acts as the main force but what would you say about the role played by crosswinds and vertical winds in changing the direction of the bullet?

someone_001
15-08-2010, 02:17 AM
MIAN TAIMUR SAHAB

Wind has no effect on TRAJECTORY ,it is mother earth alone , Gravity causes trajectory and it is a constant

Long Range Shooting for Fun should be done on steel plates or large paper targets , you will learn every thing as to where your bullets are going and why. On game you will fire only one or two shots and never know where the bullets are going , on targets you can fire and learn a d practice a lot also you will not have a guilty conscious of wounding ; as often animals are wounded and a die a miserable slow death in bushes due to reckless long range shooting.

Skeeter60 is more experienced here on this forum when it comes to rifle shooting at least far more experienced then me. But let me add a little piece of information here too,

He is right " TRAJECTORY ,it is mother earth alone" but wind and temperature cause drag which can change the bullet landing zones.

Wind does have a effect on the TRAJECTORY so do the temperature and barometric pressure for long range shooters. I have add a simple chart where you can calculate bullet deflection from the target by


lets see the chart now and presume that we are 700 yards away from the object and wind is 10 mph from right to left or from 3'O Clock. So by looking on the table wind 4.10 x 10 mph = 41/7 = 5.85 MoA to be adjusted on your scope

I dont remember why to divide by 7 here but i will find answer for you on that.

you can see that as far you are from target the drag will be more effected on your bullet.

Please also note that in the winter you will be looking a small low shot and in summer bit high shot due to different air density but no that much effect.

let say you have target 600 and 10 mph left to right the place you are camped and after 400 yards wind is right to left 15 mph .. with my little experience i will take 5 mph right to left wind count and hope that i will get the target.
http://s3.postimage.org/6E1_J.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

someone_001
15-08-2010, 02:30 AM
Yup to confirm why divide by 7

at 700 yards 7 inches would be around 1 MoA

so we converted inches into minutes :)

MianTaimur
15-08-2010, 02:54 AM
[let say you have target 600 and 10 mph left to right the place you are camped and after 400 yards wind is right to left 15 mph .. with my little experience i will take 5 mph right to left wind count and hope that i will get the target.
http://s3.postimage.org/6E1_J.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Brother I have gone through your post atleast 5 times to understand it, as I am pretty new to the world of rifles and long distance shooting ! :)

So, it is understood that due to wind pressure the bullet could deflect/sway at a longer distance and ofcourse trejectory is caused by gravity.

The chart, which you have shared above shows how to set your scope , when aiming at a certain distance with stronger winds. But I did not understand the last part qouted above, can you please explain !

Turumti
15-08-2010, 03:14 AM
Col Sahab, Excellent post!! What is your opinion of the 7x64 Brenneke?

A most wonderful German Cartridge which was popular long before the 7mm rem mag in Europe. It is slightly slower than the 7mm Rem Magnum but has a great edge over the 270.
The 7 x 64 Brennake is considered to damage less meat in a game animal while dispatching it as efficiently as the 7mm Rem Mag. This is the opinion held by big game hunters in Europe. The Rem is very slightly flatter in trajectory


With that said Col. Sahab, how would you compare the 30-06 to the 7x64 Brenneke, in the Pakistani context? Assuming that either was the only calibre one had to shoot with and if one could get only the 150gr. or the 165gr. bullet in the 30-06, and the 140 gr. bullet in the 7x64, and one wants to shoot wildboar, gazelle, blackbuck, hogdeer, ibex, urial, nilgai, and perhaps markhor as well.

Which calibre would you prefer and why?

someone_001
15-08-2010, 03:29 AM
[let say you have target 600 and 10 mph left to right the place you are camped and after 400 yards wind is right to left 15 mph .. with my little experience i will take 5 mph right to left wind count and hope that i will get the target.
http://s3.postimage.org/6E1_J.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Brother I have gone through your post atleast 5 times to understand it, as I am pretty new to the world of rifles and long distance shooting ! :)

So, it is understood that due to wind pressure the bullet could deflect/sway at a longer distance and ofcourse trejectory is caused by gravity.

The chart, which you have shared above shows how to set your scope , when aiming at a certain distance with stronger winds. But I did not understand the last part qouted above, can you please explain !


Ok

Let say from your position either can be bench rested or any other options. ... on your path wind can change or to be simple your path to long range shoot is effected different set of wind with different speed and direction. So before shooting you need to verify that the speed of wind where you are located and next to the target is same. You can do that easily by comparing how much grass is bended in both locations. Or if its a hot weather then do it by mirage waves. :) That only works if you are targeting long range but for 100,200, ...400 yards very little effect. You will see professional sweating if winds are around 20mph or above as mentioned by Skeeter60.

optimal placement relays on sum of all winds if uni directional or subtract if different direction.

and yes if wind are from you towards target then it has very little effect almost none. But for large game hunt you really dont want to have such a position as air will carry smell of yours right to the animal.

Summary of all above ...
Bullet can travel zigzag under different air or you call it turbulence.

I have this software where you can learn all the calculations and shoot with 3 different calibers include .308 , .338 .50 on different ranges to have something on you before you go real times. Offers good quality but in the end of the day it truly comes from knowledge share from expert members like skeeter60 and others and practice and given beneficial time to the sports.

ARlover
15-08-2010, 02:30 PM
great info

Skeeter60
15-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Col Sahab, Excellent post!! What is your opinion of the 7x64 Brenneke?

A most wonderful German Cartridge which was popular long before the 7mm rem mag in Europe. It is slightly slower than the 7mm Rem Magnum but has a great edge over the 270.
The 7 x 64 Brennake is considered to damage less meat in a game animal while dispatching it as efficiently as the 7mm Rem Mag. This is the opinion held by big game hunters in Europe. The Rem is very slightly flatter in trajectory


With that said Col. Sahab, how would you compare the 30-06 to the 7x64 Brenneke, in the Pakistani context? Assuming that either was the only calibre one had to shoot with and if one could get only the 150gr. or the 165gr. bullet in the 30-06, and the 140 gr. bullet in the 7x64, and one wants to shoot wildboar, gazelle, blackbuck, hogdeer, ibex, urial, nilgai, and perhaps markhor as well.

Which calibre would you prefer and why?

At Par. I would personnally prefer an 30-06 because you chose the 165 bullet. If you choose the 160 for the 7x64 then I am with the 7x64. ( these are unbaised views)

Skeeter60
15-08-2010, 03:13 PM
SOMEONE_001

I will answer your question.
The bullet; once out of the barrel is right away under the influence of wind. The bullets flight is effected mostly by the wind it encounters in its initial flight.
As an angular diversion is induced; the angle of diversion keeps increasing with the range and as the bullet slows due to air resistance.
Wind encountered near the terminal phase of a bullets flight does not effect its course as much.
I think we are splitting hairs. I however consider it my moral duty to share what ever I learnt over the years.

MianTaimur
15-08-2010, 06:22 PM
@someone_001

Thank you for your detailed reply. I belive I have a lot of research and learning to do in this field , So I am qualified enough to ask further questions, enabling me to get a better understanding.

Turumti
15-08-2010, 07:09 PM
A most wonderful German Cartridge which was popular long before the 7mm rem mag in Europe. It is slightly slower than the 7mm Rem Magnum but has a great edge over the 270.
The 7 x 64 Brennake is considered to damage less meat in a game animal while dispatching it as efficiently as the 7mm Rem Mag. This is the opinion held by big game hunters in Europe. The Rem is very slightly flatter in trajectory


With that said Col. Sahab, how would you compare the 30-06 to the 7x64 Brenneke, in the Pakistani context? Assuming that either was the only calibre one had to shoot with and if one could get only the 150gr. or the 165gr. bullet in the 30-06, and the 140 gr. bullet in the 7x64, and one wants to shoot wildboar, gazelle, blackbuck, hogdeer, ibex, urial, nilgai, and perhaps markhor as well.

Which calibre would you prefer and why?

At Par. I would personnally prefer an 30-06 because you chose the 165 bullet. If you choose the 160 for the 7x64 then I am with the 7x64. ( these are unbaised views)

Thanks for that. Now let us say the only two bullets available were the 150gr. for the 30-06 and the 140gr. for the 7x64, what would be your choice then?

Skeeter60
15-08-2010, 07:34 PM
With that said Col. Sahab, how would you compare the 30-06 to the 7x64 Brenneke, in the Pakistani context? Assuming that either was the only calibre one had to shoot with and if one could get only the 150gr. or the 165gr. bullet in the 30-06, and the 140 gr. bullet in the 7x64, and one wants to shoot wildboar, gazelle, blackbuck, hogdeer, ibex, urial, nilgai, and perhaps markhor as well.

Which calibre would you prefer and why?

At Par. I would personnally prefer an 30-06 because you chose the 165 bullet. If you choose the 160 for the 7x64 then I am with the 7x64. ( these are unbaised views)

Thanks for that. Now let us say the only two bullets available were the 150gr. for the 30-06 and the 140gr. for the 7x64, what would be your choice then?
In this case these will perform identically. I will go for the better rifle / scope

someone_001
15-08-2010, 07:36 PM
SOMEONE_001

I will answer your question.
The bullet; once out of the barrel is right away under the influence of wind. The bullets flight is effected mostly by the wind it encounters in its initial flight.
As an angular diversion is induced; the angle of diversion keeps increasing with the range and as the bullet slows due to air resistance.
Wind encountered near the terminal phase of a bullets flight does not effect its course as much.
I think we are splitting hairs. I however consider it my moral duty to share what ever I learnt over the years.

@Skeeter60

Thank You for confirming it. Could you please tell us your preference on muzzle crowning.

Skeeter60
15-08-2010, 07:40 PM
SOMEONE_001

I will answer your question.
The bullet; once out of the barrel is right away under the influence of wind. The bullets flight is effected mostly by the wind it encounters in its initial flight.
As an angular diversion is induced; the angle of diversion keeps increasing with the range and as the bullet slows due to air resistance.
Wind encountered near the terminal phase of a bullets flight does not effect its course as much.
I think we are splitting hairs. I however consider it my moral duty to share what ever I learnt over the years.

@Skeeter60

Thank You for confirming it. Could you please tell us your preference on muzzle crowning.

I prefer an 11 degree crown as I mostly use boat tail bullets. I have a tool/cutter and convert my rifle crowns to 11 degree

someone_001
15-08-2010, 07:57 PM
@someone_001

Thank you for your detailed reply. I belive I have a lot of research and learning to do in this field , So I am qualified enough to ask further questions, enabling me to get a better understanding.

The way i am trying to learn the whole process is very simple as follows

1. Minute of Angle (Most of the Math/ Physics )
2. How to use Mil Dot ( will get know how of perfect scope for your rifle)
3. Ballistics (which bullets are good to go with)
4. Windage (Accuracy improvements)
5. How to make your own Range cards (Quick Shooting cheat cards)
6. how to choose caliber (location, location .... location

someone_001
15-08-2010, 07:58 PM
SOMEONE_001

I will answer your question.
The bullet; once out of the barrel is right away under the influence of wind. The bullets flight is effected mostly by the wind it encounters in its initial flight.
As an angular diversion is induced; the angle of diversion keeps increasing with the range and as the bullet slows due to air resistance.
Wind encountered near the terminal phase of a bullets flight does not effect its course as much.
I think we are splitting hairs. I however consider it my moral duty to share what ever I learnt over the years.

@Skeeter60

Thank You for confirming it. Could you please tell us your preference on muzzle crowning.

I prefer an 11 degree crown as I mostly use boat tail bullets. I have a tool/cutter and convert my rifle crowns to 11 degree

Thats gives me a idea that you are a re-loader too :)

Apalo
15-08-2010, 11:29 PM
@someone_001

Thank you for your detailed reply. I belive I have a lot of research and learning to do in this field , So I am qualified enough to ask further questions, enabling me to get a better understanding.
I am also with the Mian sab. :)

MianTaimur
16-08-2010, 01:00 AM
The way i am trying to learn the whole process is very simple as follows

1. Minute of Angle (Most of the Math/ Physics )
2. How to use Mil Dot ( will get know how of perfect scope for your rifle)
3. Ballistics (which bullets are good to go with)
4. Windage (Accuracy improvements)
5. How to make your own Range cards (Quick Shooting cheat cards)
6. how to choose caliber (location, location .... location

Sir , I am good with Pt 1,3, 5 & 6. Have a general idea and my concept is pretty clear.

Pt 2 & 4 is something which I need to have a grip on and have a clear understanding.

I would probably do some research on google.

Thank you for your time and patience.

someone_001
16-08-2010, 01:44 AM
The way i am trying to learn the whole process is very simple as follows

1. Minute of Angle (Most of the Math/ Physics )
2. How to use Mil Dot ( will get know how of perfect scope for your rifle)
3. Ballistics (which bullets are good to go with)
4. Windage (Accuracy improvements)
5. How to make your own Range cards (Quick Shooting cheat cards)
6. how to choose caliber (location, location .... location

Sir , I am good with Pt 1,3, 5 & 6. Have a general idea and my concept is pretty clear.

Pt 2 & 4 is something which I need to have a grip on and have a clear understanding.

I would probably do some research on google.

Thank you for your time and patience.


let me know if you need help in calculations ... or i can share the soft where you can do learning on your own

MianTaimur
16-08-2010, 01:51 AM
@someone_001

Thank you for the offer.

When the stage comes, I would be bothering you :)

Turumti
16-08-2010, 03:26 AM
At Par. I would personnally prefer an 30-06 because you chose the 165 bullet. If you choose the 160 for the 7x64 then I am with the 7x64. ( these are unbaised views)

Thanks for that. Now let us say the only two bullets available were the 150gr. for the 30-06 and the 140gr. for the 7x64, what would be your choice then?
In this case these will perform identically. I will go for the better rifle / scope

From what I have read on the internet, the 7x64 shoots flatter and further with a 140 grain bullet than a 30-06 does with a 150 grain bullet. Do you believe that? Are the additional 12 yards of MPBR worth it?

Skeeter60
16-08-2010, 09:33 AM
Thanks for that. Now let us say the only two bullets available were the 150gr. for the 30-06 and the 140gr. for the 7x64, what would be your choice then?
In this case these will perform identically. I will go for the better rifle / scope

From what I have read on the internet, the 7x64 shoots flatter and further with a 140 grain bullet than a 30-06 does with a 150 grain bullet. Do you believe that? Are the additional 12 yards of MPBR worth it?

It is true, but changing parameters changes the whole equation.
I thought you earlier said a 165 for 30-06. A 165 from a 30-06 will give excellent ballistics and so does a 160 from the 7x64.

The most important thing is RANGE TIME, spend time on the range and shoot on Paper targets to see what your particular Rifle is doing. Each one is different from the other and there is nothing to beat marksmanship training and practical experience

Amjad Ali
16-08-2010, 03:49 PM
thanks for your shairing sir skeeter60

MIdreesTaj
16-08-2010, 07:41 PM
@Skeeter60 great topic Sir!

Sir say your likes and dislikes on Zeroing at a particular distance VS. Zeroing at MPBR range.

It is practically the same as the POINT BLANK RANGE.
One does not want the trajectory to rise above or fall below the the diameter of the Vital zone of a game animal.
In case of an Urial the vital area is a circle of 12 inches, so one is aiming in the centre of the shoulder the bullet can rise six inches or fall six inches from point of aim and one could still get a vital hit.

The PBR in practice will only help those hunters who fully understand the trajectory, and do not zero at extended ranges; once a rifle is zeroed to shoot at the Max PBR it s Midrange trajectory or the Maximum Ordinate will occur at slightly further than the Midrange point.

Without an intimate knowledge of the trajectory for the particular caliber, bullet, velocity and the accuracy potential of the rifle shots beyond 300 yards without range compensating scopes or adjustable open sights should be avoided

...........................once a rifle is zeroed to shoot at the Max PBR it s Midrange trajectory or the Maximum Ordinate will occur at slightly further than the Midrange point.

Sir I want to ask you is, does that matter because we are concerned to the Size of the Target (Vital Area)? as at the mid range the bullet will fall out of the range of "Vital circle" as rifle is already zeroed at Max PBR.
Or please clear this point a bit more.

Gilani
17-08-2010, 02:07 AM
A very informative discussion indeed. Thanks everyone, specially Skeeter60 sahib :)


Though off the topic, I would like to mention about the bullet drop in pistols. Today, I shot my MP446 Viking at 100 M and noticed a bullet drop of little more than 2 ft approx. I fired 10 bullets on a target, aiming on top of the head (the target resembled a human figure). All 10 bullet hit on the target in the belly area in a spread of around 18 inches. Would measure the bullet drops at 75 and 50 Ms also. This gives me confidence that a target can be engaged at 100 M with reasonable accuracy, if one is mindful of the bullet drop at that range from his handgun. I am sure the data would drastically differ from handgun to handgun. Many handguns may not have the capability to hit a target at 100 M, come what may :)

Sorry again for being off the topic :)

coolbox18
17-08-2010, 02:16 AM
@gilani sb,
thats amazing. would ammo type (normal vs +p) would also have an impact on such high distances?

Gilani
17-08-2010, 02:19 AM
coolbox brother, I think it would. But haven't tried it yet. :)

coolbox18
17-08-2010, 02:36 AM
Thankyou for your feedback Gilani sb.

Skeeter60
17-08-2010, 02:25 PM
@Skeeter60 great topic Sir!

Sir say your likes and dislikes on Zeroing at a particular distance VS. Zeroing at MPBR range.

It is practically the same as the POINT BLANK RANGE.
One does not want the trajectory to rise above or fall below the the diameter of the Vital zone of a game animal.
In case of an Urial the vital area is a circle of 12 inches, so one is aiming in the centre of the shoulder the bullet can rise six inches or fall six inches from point of aim and one could still get a vital hit.

The PBR in practice will only help those hunters who fully understand the trajectory, and do not zero at extended ranges; once a rifle is zeroed to shoot at the Max PBR it s Midrange trajectory or the Maximum Ordinate will occur at slightly further than the Midrange point.

Without an intimate knowledge of the trajectory for the particular caliber, bullet, velocity and the accuracy potential of the rifle shots beyond 300 yards without range compensating scopes or adjustable open sights should be avoided

...........................once a rifle is zeroed to shoot at the Max PBR it s Midrange trajectory or the Maximum Ordinate will occur at slightly further than the Midrange point.

Sir I want to ask you is, does that matter because we are concerned to the Size of the Target (Vital Area)? as at the mid range the bullet will fall out of the range of "Vital circle" as rifle is already zeroed at Max PBR.
Or please clear this point a bit more.

MIT
No it doesn't
Like a 7mm Rem Mag has an PBR of 351 yards when zeroed at 297 or (300) yards. The Vital are ia 12 inches for an Urial. We also deduct the accuracy potential or let us say a Rifle /ammo combo that you are using is giving you MOA accuracy so you will deduct 3.5 inches from the Vital Area which means your rifle will be within a a circle of 8.5 inches with tha aiming point at its centre whether you shoot at 100 yards or 350 yds without having to worry about any hold over or holding low but you should not be shooting at more than 350 yds.
Now if you want to take shots on targets ( not game ) at longer ranges; then your MPBR systems gets you into a night mare of calculations. I simply use a range finder (laser RF in my Geovid Lieca Bino ) and I have range compensation scopes and I know the trajectories of each of my Rifles/Reloads like the back of my hand. When not using the range compensating scopes I zeroe my high velocity rifles using bullets of high BC at 300 yds