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View Full Version : Availability Of Grach ( Yarygin ) Military Version of MP 446



Crazy Shooter
29-06-2010, 12:41 AM
Brothers I invite you all to share your views about the availability of Grach ( Yarigin ) pistol which is a military version of Viking MP 446 as far as I know this pistol was only designed for russian army and handed over in 2003 our senior brother Zubair in some thread said that Grach is coming into lahore market in few days anyone of you know about the availability of this gun in pakistani market ? and one more thing most of us even our senior brother 12 guage thinks that MP 446 is designed to fire AP rounds which is not true only military version Grach can fire such rounds and the quality of civilian version ( MP 446 ) is as good as it is in Grach

Nazim Sahib
29-06-2010, 01:24 AM
Hi Craz,
In my opinion the chances of the original military version coming is quite small.And another point the civilian model will be able to fire a AP round if the military version can.There are no special qualities required in a weapon to fire an AP round if its the same caliber as the chambering of the weapon.The qualities of AP lie in the cartridge not in the weapon.
I`m sure experienced members would be able to guide you properly.Hope i was of help.

Enigmatic Desires
29-06-2010, 01:58 AM
Grach if I recollect correctly is all steel an heavier then the viking.. I dont think I hav seen any grachs with rails though?

Crazy Shooter
29-06-2010, 02:08 AM
Yes brother you are right Grach is the steel and a lil heavier then viking and according to my knowledge the quality of barrel is reduced in viking

Shariq
29-06-2010, 02:13 AM
Crazy Shooter bro can you plz share the source of your knowledge about barrel of 446. Thanks

Enigmatic Desires
29-06-2010, 02:21 AM
Yes brother you are right Grach is the steel and a lil heavier then viking and according to my knowledge the quality of barrel is reduced in viking



Also I dont remember seeing any rails on Grachs

Crazy Shooter
29-06-2010, 02:47 AM
Crazy Shooter bro can you plz share the source of your knowledge about barrel of 446. Thanks

Brother a friend of my late father who is considered an authority over semi automatic handguns told me this and this information is also on worldguns.com

Shariq
29-06-2010, 03:15 AM
I could not find this information on worldguns.ru earlier also. May be you can help me find it.
Thanks

Crazy Shooter
29-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Yes its not there now but brothers you can find information regarding this on the other thread few questions about baikal we are discussing it in great detail there

Dr Zakir
29-06-2010, 06:47 PM
It is a military side arm and not an export version . Only if one can find would be in khyber pakhtoon khaw .

Sensei
30-06-2010, 03:00 PM
@brother shariq here is the link..
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg50-e.htm

Crazy Shooter
30-06-2010, 03:24 PM
Yarygin (MP-443 'Grach') 6P35 9 mm self-loading pistol (Russian Federation), Pistols

Development
The search for a replacement for the low-powered PM Makarov pistol commenced during the early 1980s, although it was not until the late 1980s that final design definitions were agreed. The project was given the cover name Grach ('rook'), with three designs under consideration:The Grach-1 combined blowback operation with gas locking but was not considered worthy of further development.The Grach-2 was eventually selected for Russian armed forces service as the 6P35 Grach, or PYa (Pistolet Yarygin), after the head designer, Vladimir Yarygin.The Grach-3 emerged as the PMM, a modified Makarov with a large capacity magazine and firing an enhanced 9 x 18 mm round . After some public exposure the PMM appears to have been abandoned, possibly because the enhanced cartridge which required a modified chamber to retard ejection until pressure levels had dropped, could also be fired in the standard unmodified Makarov pistol.Considerable attention was paid to the exact type of ammunition the 6P35 Grach was to fire before it was decided to adopt the new 9 × 19 mm 7N21 cartridge with its enhanced armour-penetrating bullet. Although the 7N21 has dimensions almost exactly the same as those for the 9 × 19 mm round, it imparts a higher muzzle velocity. A version of the 6P35 specifically designed to fire standard loadings of 9 × 19 mm ammunition is known as the MP-446 Viking self-loading pistol; it is visually identical to the 6P35 and as of 2008, is intended for export.

AK47
30-06-2010, 03:33 PM
Russian commercial items hardly reach international markets, how to expect their military items!

Chinese army also has different versions of handguns, yet only the CF-98 is available here, rest of the Norinco bunch like all those NP's have not been adopted by their military, I guess. :)

Shariq
30-06-2010, 08:19 PM
Crazy Shooter Bro
Thanks for the effort. Its clear to me now.

Aquarius
30-06-2010, 08:59 PM
@Crazy Shooter.. brother this link is already provided by Coolbox brother in another thread..

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Infantry-Weapons/Yarygin-MP-443-Grach-6P35-9-mm-self-loading-pistol-Russian-Federation.html

But still it not written even in this particular link that Viking is not capable of firing these Russian hot ammunition, so unless and until we don't have an authentic source (Baikal which is the manufacturing plant of both Grach and Viking) we are unable to decide whether Viking is capable of firing these rounds or not.

Dr Zakir
30-06-2010, 10:51 PM
in worldguns ru only difference written is material of frame and sights. no mention of ammo difference . while looking at the barrel and breach of viking , one can feel that u can fire any ammo with it

SPAYPANTHER
30-06-2010, 11:00 PM
in worldguns ru only difference written is material of frame and sights. no mention of ammo difference . while looking at the barrel and breach of viking , one can feel that u can fire any ammo with it
+1 DR zakir

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 12:37 AM
in worldguns ru only difference written is material of frame and sights. no mention of ammo difference . while looking at the barrel and breach of viking , one can feel that u can fire any ammo with it

Brother Zakir 7N21 and 7N31 are the result of a secret experiment to invent most power round in this world famous 9x19 mm caliber this experiment was conducted under the supervision of russian army after the success the task of manufacturing a gun which can fire these hot loads easily was given to baikal special technology and after a hard work of almost one decade Grach was manufactured for russian military and handed over to some units in 2003 if there is no difference between mp 446 and mp 443 why the steel version of mp 446 is not called a grach ? because the engineering and technology used in both handguns is different how can you expect russian military to open the export of some gun in the same year it was given to army ? this topic is undergoing in a detailed discussion in Baikal Viking MP 446 few questions

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 12:46 AM
One can fire slugs from any good quality shotgun but why some shotguns come with an extra slug barrel ? same is the case with MP 446 and MP 443 one is designed to fire hot loads and the other is designed to fire standard rounds and as far as worldguns.ru is related in the details of MP 443 its clearly stated that this gun was manufactured to fire 7N21 and 7N31 rounds this thing is not in the details of MP 446

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 01:00 AM
i did post the Jane web link, but i also said that i hv reserevations on the info there.
@aquarius bro, true, it never says viking cannot fire 7n21/31
@dr zakir sb, +1 on world gun info.
even baikal web says viking and grach hv same basic design! i dont think i need to post tht link, it must hv been stormed by pg members already :)
any conclusion can only be made after comparitive review of both guns.

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 01:06 AM
this means that Russia opened the export of a handgun which is capable of firing thse hot loads 7N21 and 7N31 which were invented only for russian army undergoing a secret experiment ?

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 01:22 AM
any conclusion can only be made after comparitive review of both guns.

if you need my personal opinion, why would one buy a viking over other numerous options in europe atleast?
if weapon is available, but no ammo, how does one fire the ammo?
gsh18 was first weapon, just before grach, for russian army, tht could fire this ammo. it was also available to civillians.
i think alot has been said on the topic, but without a possible end to discussion. then, i would just stick to above quoted words of yours truly.
:)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 01:22 AM
Finally :)))))))))))

I have got some support on my views :)

MP-446 Viking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The MP-446 Viking is a semi-automatic 9mm handgun originating from Russia.[1] It was created by the Izhevsk Mechanical Works, located in Russia. It weighs at around 830 grams when unloaded, and has a magazine capacity of 18 rounds. The pistol is a sport/civilian version of Yarygin PYa pistol which has been used by Russian military since 2003. MP-446 is short recoil-operated, locked breech pistol. The key differences between MP-466 and PYa are the frame material (polyamide) and barrel construction: in MP-446 the barrel was weakened to prevent discharge of high-powered armour-piercing military rounds (7N21 type). For civilian use, the pistol can only be loaded with 10 rounds of 9mm Luger.

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 01:25 AM
gsh18 was designed to fire AP rounds not 7N21 and 7N31 rounds brother

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 01:31 AM
actually, 7n21 is ap round :)
and so is 7n31

and gsh18 was designed to fire them both

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 01:38 AM
Defiantly 7N21/31 are +AP rounds but far more powerful from any other other AP rounds available with any other LEA in world

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 02:05 AM
actually, 7n21 is ap round :)
and so is 7n31

and gsh18 was designed to fire them both

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm
pls read the link crazy shooter bro.

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 02:08 AM
Defiantly 7N21/31 are +AP rounds but far more powerful from any other other AP rounds available with any other LEA in world
pls provide source for this claim.

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 02:09 AM
actually, 7n21 is ap round :)
and so is 7n31

and gsh18 was designed to fire them both

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

s far as I know the only handgun designed to fire these hot loads so far is Grach MP 443

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 02:11 AM
actually, 7n21 is ap round :)
and so is 7n31

and gsh18 was designed to fire them both

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

s far as I know the only handgun designed to fire these hot loads so far is Grach MP 443
then pls extend your knowledhge further :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 02:19 AM
Defiantly 7N21/31 are +AP rounds but far more powerful from any other other AP rounds available with any other LEA in world
pls provide source for this claim.

Brother GSH 18 uses 9mm PBP round 7N21/31 is more powerful then 9mm PBP round and 9mm PBP round is available around the world and also for civilians in black market

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 09:53 AM
brother, pls provide source. the link i have provided mentions what i have stated. would appreciate if you could contribute to extend knowledge of all members on forum with source to back your claims :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:00 AM
brother, pls provide source. the link i have provided mentions what i have stated. would appreciate if you could contribute to extend knowledge of all members on forum with source to back your claims :)

I have also provided the links to prove that MP 446 barrel's is weaker then MP 443 the discussion going on here about MP 446 not GSH 18 and if you want to discuss GSH I'll post some pages of a book about russian military small arms in which it is stated that GSH 18 was not fit for service with 7N21 and 7N31 cartridges even in worldguns.ru you wont be able to find in the details of GSH 18 that this gun can fire 7N21 or 7N31 cartridges

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:09 AM
what most of us doing here is to rely on the information provided on worldguns.ru my effort is to bring all the information from different sources either from internet or from books about small arms to give this discussion a fruitful end we just can not stick to one internet web site to make some final conclusions even if you are discussing GSH 18 on world guns its clearly mentioned that the performance of this pistol was controversial the feedback was even disappointing

coolbox18
01-07-2010, 10:14 AM
bro, pls do not think that i m challenging you. we are all here for sharing and gaining knowledge, while respecting each others opinion. i ask for source as we are not designers of those weapons. i can post several links backing my claim of gsh18. but i think this is getting a bit personal here, so i would rather stop my part of discussion now :)
if u r still interested, google does give plenty about gsh18 :)
PS:
pbp is 7n31 round :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:20 AM
The pistol will fire any NATO-spec 9mm Parabellum ammo (9×19mm), but it’s designed specifically to utilize the 9mm PBP cartridge, which is a very hot AP (armor-piercing/armor-penetrating) version of the 9×19mm Parabellum in order to defeat body armor. This is inline with the Russians’…


overall focus on body armor penetration capability, even with pistol and submachine gun ammo. This movement towards AP capability for subguns and even pistols seems to now be common with militaries and police forces around the world.

The KBP GSh-18 pistol is recoil-operated and operates via rotating barrel, which provides the lock-up.The pistol actually utilizes 10 locking lugs to accomplish this with a rotation angle of roughly 18 degrees
GSH is designed to fire PBP cartridges not 7N21 or 7N31 cartridges
http://www.defensereview.com/russian-kbp-gsh-18-pistol-and-9mm-pbp-ap-ammo-for-special-applications/

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:23 AM
PBP and 7N21/31 are both AP rounds but 7N21/31 cartridges are more powerful then PBP rounds brother and I am not taking it personal brother

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:38 AM
Unless the firearm is explicitly marked as being +P rated or it is clearly stated in the gun's manual, +P ammunition should not be used. If in doubt, a check by a gunsmith or a phone call to the gun's manufacturer will verify the safety of +P ammunition in a particular firearm. Ammunition that is loaded to +P pressures is clearly marked on the headstamp as such, for example a 9mm would be marked "9mm Luger +P".

The use of +P or +P+ ammunition does accelerate wear and reduces the service life on the component parts on any pistol.[11]

In addition to questions of safety and durability are issues of reliability and usability. Since +P cartridges may generate a significantly different quality of recoil, this can impact firearm function. For example, recoil operated firearms may fail to function if the velocity of the recoiling parts is too high; in lightweight revolvers, the cartridge case may recoil away from the bullet with sufficient force to overcome the crimp, allowing the bullet to move forward in the cylinder and causing the cylinder to bind.[12] The increased velocities and pressures of a +P loading will increase muzzle blast and recoil, and may prove difficult to handle for many shooters; these problems are exacerbated by compact, lightweight guns with short barrels.

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Cartridge Standard pressure +P pressure Notes
9 × 19 mm 35,000 38,500 10% increase

In 7N21 and 7N31 the pressure is increased about 40%

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 10:53 AM
Yarygin (MP-443 'Grach') 6P35 9 mm self-loading pistol (Russian Federation), Pistols

Development
The search for a replacement for the low-powered PM Makarov pistol commenced during the early 1980s, although it was not until the late 1980s that final design definitions were agreed. The project was given the cover name Grach ('rook'), with three designs under consideration:The Grach-1 combined blowback operation with gas locking but was not considered worthy of further development.The Grach-2 was eventually selected for Russian armed forces service as the 6P35 Grach, or PYa (Pistolet Yarygin), after the head designer, Vladimir Yarygin.The Grach-3 emerged as the PMM, a modified Makarov with a large capacity magazine and firing an enhanced 9 x 18 mm round . After some public exposure the PMM appears to have been abandoned, possibly because the enhanced cartridge which required a modified chamber to retard ejection until pressure levels had dropped, could also be fired in the standard unmodified Makarov pistol.Considerable attention was paid to the exact type of ammunition the 6P35 Grach was to fire before it was decided to adopt the new 9 × 19 mm 7N21 cartridge with its enhanced armour-penetrating bullet. Although the 7N21 has dimensions almost exactly the same as those for the 9 × 19 mm round, it imparts a higher muzzle velocity. A version of the 6P35 specifically designed to fire standard loadings of 9 × 19 mm ammunition is known as the MP-446 Viking self-loading pistol; it is visually identical to the 6P35 and as of 2008, is intended for export.

Let's face it gentlemen, the Yarygin (MP-443 'Grach') 6P35 9 mm self-loading pistol is not available in the market, and chances are it won't (ever) be available. Neither will AP ammo be (ever) available, at least to the commoner. So better stick to the next best thing, the MP446 and buy it while its still cheap because of being kinda under-rated :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 12:13 PM
ay_be_why brother thats exactly what I am saying but most of us think that there is no diff between these two handguns I strongly believe there is MP 446 is one of the best gun in the market not only in its price range but also wins from most of the famous and world known guns as far as I think

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 01:04 PM
ay_be_why brother thats exactly what I am saying but most of us think that there is no diff between these two handguns I strongly believe there is MP 446 is one of the best gun in the market not only in its price range but also wins from most of the famous and world known guns as far as I think

Sir g the only difference I see is the difference of polymer vs. metal frame. To be honest, for me, the ability/inability to shoot AP ammo or a barrel-life of 20K/50K/100K is all the same, because frankly, a typical shooter doesn't even approach this round-count or get his hands on AP or other bling bling ammo :). Pro-shooters like Sir Skeeter or Sir Gilani must have even higher round-counts for sure but I'm sure they too switch to another gun for any reason (performance/liking/availability/"I have to buy it :)" etc), long before they have put this much rounds though one piece.

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 02:39 PM
ay_be_why thats not the question :) question is about the technology used in these both guns for me too its goes exactly the way you explained but whats the harm in knowing our guns better ?

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 03:00 PM
essentially the same gun (with a different frame)= essentially the same technology (with a different process to make the frame) IMHO :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 03:15 PM
I believe the technology used in the military version MP 443 the Russians will try to keep it secret as far as they can atleast handing over the handgun designed for a special purpose to army in 2003 and opening the export in the same year to civilian market not logical

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Doesn't sound like a secret, build a metal(=stronger, longer lasting) frame and treat/construct the barrel with better/advanced processing(=stronger, longer lasting barrel). The technology (cold forging, hammer forging etc. etc.) used to create such parts aren't exactly secrets...

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 03:38 PM
I was referring to 7N21/31

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 04:02 PM
I was referring to 7N21/31

My bad, I missed it.. But even the AP ammo technology is no secret. Had it been a secret, we couldn't possibly be discussing it, right? :)

A projectile of extremely dense/hard material, covered with a jacket of soft metal to prevent damage to the shooting barrel... That's about it... :) Wanna penetrate some real big and thick armor? No problem, just slap on lil' bit explosive on the nose of a big (to efficiently create an "entry wound") and plug the shell with some delayed-action/fused etc. explosive to go bam only when the projectile has penetrated the armor... There you have it bro :)

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 04:20 PM
AP ammo technology is not a secret but when there were other AP rounds available why russian needed another in the same caliber ? the process of making these rounds was secret

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Why do we keep seeing new cars being announced every now and then by automotive manufacturers all over the world?? Or new medicine or new TVs and computers??

Crazy Shooter
01-07-2010, 04:29 PM
there is a diff between cars medicines and weapons :)

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 04:38 PM
Just what I was expecting :) The reason for developing anything new is the same, meeting a new requirement (as in case of cars), solving a new problem (as in case of medicine and weapons :) )...

Maybe the Russians just decided to make the baddest AP round? Maybe their metallurgical engineers discovered a new alloy as tough as DU but not as toxic and they decided to put it to good use ;) ? Maybe they want their AP arsenal to keep abreast of the advances in personal/vehicular armor?? Whether it's a car, an AP shell or a children's toy, its development is governed by the same principle, the search for a better car/AP munitions/ kids' toy, to keep abreast or even ahead of the time...

Denovo87
01-07-2010, 04:38 PM
Why do we keep seeing new cars being announced every now and then by automotive manufacturers all over the world?? Or new medicine or new TVs and computers??

Because these made to sell in open market :)

ay_be_why
01-07-2010, 04:43 PM
Why do we keep seeing new cars being announced every now and then by automotive manufacturers all over the world?? Or new medicine or new TVs and computers??

Because these made to sell in open market :)

Sir g you shouldn't have let that secret out ;)