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Nazim Sahib
24-04-2010, 11:24 AM
Hello friends,
Due to personal problems i have i am forced to carry a concealed pistol...and i am planning on getting a new small sized 9mm pistol.
What i had decided on is the Sarsilmax Cm9 as it fits my budget and is perfect for my needs.
Is it reliable?I havent been able to find any info about the gun itself....
I would have been happy with a taurus but its way too huge......
Would you guys recommend anything else?
Thanks alot and your comments would be very appreciated.

Shariq
24-04-2010, 02:02 PM
CM9 is not suitable for concealed carry. Its quite hefty.
You have option of PT-145 Taurus in .45. Its suitable for CC. In 9mm you can go for Taurus Millennium Pro series. Its compact and reliable.

Rotorcrafts
24-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Sir Sqnldr_Shariq,

Most respectfully i dont think the Millenium pro series especially the Millenium Pro-111 are not considered to be reliable weapons. maybe now tauras may have rectified the issues but will need confirmation from other expert members aswell.

Dr Zakir
24-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Glock 26

Vik
24-04-2010, 02:14 PM
special circumstances demands a Glock.

Shariq
24-04-2010, 02:17 PM
Bro i have used three different Millennium Pro pistols at the range. One owned by our very own Dear Bullseye fired with ease Failed to fire rounds from a 24/7. I fired POF 2z from them without any issue so i am quite sure there is nothing wrong with it.
Of course expert members can enlighten us more.

Shariq
24-04-2010, 02:20 PM
If budget is not an issue then
As Dr Zakir Sb rightly suggested, best would be Glock 26. HK USP Compact won't be bad either.

Abu Al Hawl
24-04-2010, 03:11 PM
Yes, budget is an issue for him as Nazim Bro already mentioned Sarsimalz fits his budget!

Maximus
24-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Good observation AAH.
I love the way that Doc advocates Glock as a CC pistol . If budget really were`nt an issue than a glock would suffice hands down.
A better option would be a PT-145 as suggested by SS as .45acp has more stopping power and the particular pistol under view is concealable quite well. jump to the .45 club to check it out some more.

Rotorcrafts
24-04-2010, 04:19 PM
i have studied a bit and concluded that the latest Millenium pro models dont have any issues. only the PT-111 had issues with reliability.

Abu Al Hawl
24-04-2010, 04:26 PM
i wish PTs could have been that relaible, but these striker trigger pistols are always a problem, why Glock and S&W and other good brands didn't adopted this double action system becoz it doest'n work on striker based pistols! striker's force is not that powerfull to even ignite a hard primer bullet, i my self swapped so many PTs but at the end of the day :( misfire, looking at the primer it seems a bird has stiked it with its beak.

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:15 PM
I have fired around a 100 rounds from my PT 24/7 pro .45, not a single FTF or and FTE. Its quiet concealable, but a little heavy after you have loaded the mag to its capicity. However if u load up with 8 - 9 rounds i think that would do the trick for you but it would be in vicinity of 55k to 62k depending upon your bargaining skills. But if you fancy a 9mm I would suggest you go for either a stoeger or yavuz compact mc or yavuz bora light. All of them are reliable weapons. Stoegar and the yavuz compact mc are a little heavier than the bora light. These would fall in the vicintiy of 45k - 65k. I recently accompanied a friend to lucky star and he bought the bora light for 46.5k
However if you are under some sort of a threat or whatever your reason for carrying the weapon do refer to the thread Art of double tap and CQC. I think it would come in handy.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4415

Salahuddin Ayubi
24-04-2010, 05:16 PM
i wish PTs could have been that relaible, but these striker trigger pistols are always a problem,......

I beg to disagree. My personal view is that the first generation striker fired PTs did have problems however, the recent generation ones (2nd and 3rd) which are also available in our market, do not have these problems.

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:17 PM
+1 SA sb

Gilani
24-04-2010, 05:19 PM
I am also looking to buy a CC pistol in 9mm. Any information from members who are well aware of the current market would be most welcome. And by CC, I means a weapon small enough to be concealed in summer clothing by an average person. Thanks :)

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:22 PM
@Gillani sb, refering summer clothing, i presume you would be carrying it in an IWB or a ankle holestor right?

Salahuddin Ayubi
24-04-2010, 05:23 PM
Gilani Sb, please take a look at the 145 also.

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:26 PM
good suggestion by SA sb.

Gilani
24-04-2010, 05:37 PM
Fahad sahib, in IWB holster most probably. I find it more convenient there :)

SA sahib, I had a thorough inspection of Denovo sahib's 145 yesterday and to say the least, it's very impressive. I have only one issue with it; the price of ammo. I like to fire my handguns as much as I can. .45 is a bit too heavy on the pocket and this would simply mean, less practice. Otherwise, I have nothing against 145 rather I may still buy it in the next few days if I dont get a robust and reliable option in 9mm.

As per my personal preference, the CC gun should be small enough to be hidden in summer clothing. In that:
- My #1 choice would be a hammer fired 9mm with a steel frame. I understand there is hardly any choice available in this category though there are options available in used small caliber pistols like .32 ACP and .22 LR.

- My #2 preference would be a metal frame striker fired 9mm. I know the choices in even this category are quite limited.

- My #3 preference would be a polymer frame 9mm, preferably a hammer fired one (like H&K SK2000 but its way beyond my range). I know in the end, I may have to be contended with a polymer frame striker fired pistol which is not to my liking but still .............. :(

Regardless of the frame or firing mechanism, if I decide to go to any caliber other than 9x19 parabellum, I would go for .45ACP :)

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:47 PM
@Giilani sb, why dont you go for a cz 83 9x19. there is one availble here at lucky star, if you like i can go on monday and find out the price for you. Its NIB.

Naveed_pk
24-04-2010, 05:49 PM
Very right Gilani Sir .. I am too in the line of Pt 145 .. New shipment is arrived at PARA .. Just 2 pieces of Pt 145 .. Asking price was 65k lower down to 60k .. Meanwhile a little short of Budget .. Will fetch it as soon as possible...

Naveed_pk
24-04-2010, 05:50 PM
@Giilani sb, why dont you go for a cz 83 9x19. there is one availble here at lucky star, if you like i can go on monday and find out the price for you. Its NIB.

Fahad bro whats the price ???

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:53 PM
as i said brother naveed, if any of you is interested i will be going there on monday to buy some bullets, i can confirm the price to you then. the cz 83 in .32 NIB was selling for 40k. this would be a little higher or atleast in the same vicinity, but i can only confirm once i have talked to the dealer.

Naveed_pk
24-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Ok .. plz do take some pics also ... Thanks

fahadkhalid
24-04-2010, 05:55 PM
will do sir. i am not very good at photography but i will try to take them to the best of my skills, i hope a person as skilled as you can forgive me on that :)

Naveed_pk
24-04-2010, 05:59 PM
Yes Sure Bro .. ;) BTW i am also Far behind in the line of photography the title given me is the love by all members :)

Gilani
24-04-2010, 07:08 PM
@Giilani sb, why dont you go for a cz 83 9x19. there is one availble here at lucky star, if you like i can go on monday and find out the price for you. Its NIB.
Fahad bhai, is CZ83 available in 9x19? As per my information, it has been manufactured in .32 ACP, .380 ACP and 9x18 Makarov only. Please do check the price and caliber if it is not inconvenient for you. Would be grateful :)

khurramdool
24-04-2010, 11:00 PM
@Gilani sb.
if u want a cc weapon then try this Taurus PT609 Pro Titanium, I tried 100rds through this and no FTF FTE ect.

http://s2.postimage.org/e5hd9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tse5hd9)

Apalo
24-04-2010, 11:03 PM
nice discussion

AK47
24-04-2010, 11:29 PM
As majority suggests, the PT 145 wins hands down with following considerations:

1) Highly concealable.
2) Stopping power of cal .45
3) Relatively high cap (10+1 rounds)
4) Relatively accurate, despite of 3.25" barrel.
5) Light weight.
6) Relatively economical (Avg. 60K)

7) MODERN LOOKS, BEAUTIFUL, HANDY, "PETIT" and RELIABLE, one dashing "Karishma", a la Denovo! :lol:

I used to carry the cougar, now I alternate sometimes, though mainly carry this one, and I must say, as per Gilani Sb's requirement above, this gun IS concealable beneath traditional summer wear, no bulging shalwaar-kameez, and I carry it in a OWB holster quite with ease, even whilst driving! :)

Generally, I'd say, Gilani Sb, leaving P.O.F and Chinese 9mm rounds aside, the first one not being reliable enough with many 9mm handguns due to it's +P ammo factor and the latter one being inconsistent in supply, all other 9mm rounds of the imported ones range somewhere between 50-300 Rs/per round, so with that in the mind, I believe Rs. 60 for a .45 round is near to free of cost, you get 230 grains, instead of 115/125 grains! So, I'd say, it's still VERY economical Gilani Sir, have absolutely no scruples in going for this gun, and I know you will, it's my genuine impression, this model is soon gonna replace popularity of the Cougar here on PG, provided it remains easily available! :)

Nazim Sahib
24-04-2010, 11:37 PM
Thanx alot guys for all your messages.Its very kind of you all to give your time for my problem...however i did make up my mind on a Sarsilmaz CM9 and i also would prefer a 9mm to a .45 due to price of rounds.And i can practise much more on a 9mm compared to a .45.
I would prefer a 9mm but if you people insist i would get a .45 since you guys have possibly more experience then I.The problem is i am expecting to use my weapon eventually for defence and with a 9mm I can practise alot more then .45 so when the time comes i`ll have more faster shots being put down compared to a huge blast of a .45.
What is wrong with a Cm9 sarsilmax?isnt it a good reliable weapon?its v v v handy and comfartable to hold....havent used one yet and i havent fired a .45 yet either......thx alot guys

Nazim Sahib
24-04-2010, 11:39 PM
I cant cough up enough money for a glock at the moment and the price range for a sarsilmax is fine for me....and the price of 9mm rounds is also good....also if importation gets banned atleast i can buy wah rounds which are cheap and good quality for practise and such.

Nazim Sahib
24-04-2010, 11:46 PM
oh and guys nothing hammerless i want my peice to have a hammer i dunno why i`m used to it and wouldnt want a gun without a hammer like a glock.And it should be double actions.Otherwise the PT 145 looks awesome.....I have to agree Mr AK47 is absolutelly right about all his comments........but i cant go with a hammerless pistol......

Mitho
24-04-2010, 11:54 PM
yar phir app aik makarov le lain.

Aquarius
25-04-2010, 12:40 AM
yar phir app aik makarov le lain.

+1 Mitho bro: The new Makarov has a magazine capacity of 12 rounds and can be purchased for 55K + its more CC than Sarsilmaz CM9... I know Sarsilmaz CM9 is a good handgun, but I don't know why I am not inclined towards the Turkish handguns. And this new Mak is manufactured by Baikal, whose products are renowed for their reliability and durability... :)

Gilani
25-04-2010, 12:55 AM
AK sahib, I have already registered PT145. No doubt its a nice gun and as I have already said, if I decide to change caliber, PT145 would be my first choice. However, I have now stadardised to 9x19mm due to certain reasons and would prefer a reliable and well concealable handgun in this caliber. Apparently, there are not many choices available and it seems that I may finally have to settle down for a PT145. Thanks for your comments Sir. :)

Faheem
25-04-2010, 12:58 AM
Nazim Sahib if price rage is issue so why dont you purchase CF98 in 32k its also a good handgun.

otherwise CZ999 is another good choice in 44 to 46k.

If you can increase your range Taurus 809, Stouger couger are very Good options.

alll the above handguns are very reliable, most discussed, durable and with hammer option ......

Dr Zakir
25-04-2010, 01:14 AM
For me I would like to agree with ak 47 best sd cc is pt 145 at this moment . It is very accurate considering being a compact size .
If price is consideration then a cf 98 would be next option cz is bigger and not a true cc weapon .

Faheem
25-04-2010, 01:22 AM
Dr Zakir sir you are 100% correct that PT 145 is the best option but Nazim sb likes the hammer option handgun ... thats why I am not suggesting him PT145

Vik
25-04-2010, 01:26 AM
Aoa
45 and that too in a smaller size will give lot of recoil.
For CC in a situation as you have stated earlier will require GLOCK. But since Its expensive
try a good quality .22 pistol. You can fire lots of bullet without much recoil.Much lighter in weight. And If possible keep a 45 large frame.
Drop Taurus from any consideration.

Dr Zakir
25-04-2010, 01:36 AM
Or for a real cc look for a beretta bobcat or tomcat

Faheem
25-04-2010, 01:58 AM
Dr Zakir sir do you have any rough idea about their prices ?

AK47
25-04-2010, 09:01 AM
Aoa
45 and that too in a smaller size will give lot of recoil.
For CC in a situation as you have stated earlier will require GLOCK. But since Its expensive
try a good quality .22 pistol. You can fire lots of bullet without much recoil.Much lighter in weight. And If possible keep a 45 large frame.
Drop Taurus from any consideration.

Absolutely not the case with the 145 Vik bro, the dual spring system reduces recoil to being near to that of a 9mm handgun, despite of the short barrel! Ask Den, SA.

Remember first time trying it out, I too expected a great recoil from it and tried to hold it most firmly, but then right after the fitst shot, I was pretty much amazed, only "sound" of the .45 has a great "recoil"! :lol:

Gilani
25-04-2010, 09:09 AM
hmmm................. too many good things about PT145. Will have to give it a serious thought now :rolleyes:

MIdreesTaj
25-04-2010, 10:24 AM
the dual spring system reduces recoil to being near to that of a 9mm handgun, despite of the short barrel! Ask Den, SA.

AK47 you are right.. Even on my 809 9mm having the same dual captive recoil springs, a 9mm does not feel like 9mm. This particular spring system seems to manage recoil and make it softer. Also makes your slide harder to retract.

Nazim Sahib
25-04-2010, 11:29 AM
from reading all your comments i think getting a 145 would be a good idea.I read all the reviews and it sounds excellent..........I have a few actions to ask you guys.
1:how much does the ammo cost and from where is it imported?
2:does it ONLY run on double action?
Thx alot people.

Shariq
25-04-2010, 11:41 AM
What is wrong with a Cm9 sarsilmax?isnt it a good reliable weapon?its v v v handy and comfartable to hold....havent used one yet and i havent fired a .45 yet either......thx alot guys

Bro a CM9 with sixteen rounds loaded is quite bulky and its dimensions are not suitable for a CC weapon. But if you like it then there are no reliability issues.

Nazim Sahib
25-04-2010, 11:47 AM
the cz999 looks very very nice even though its a bit too big.....but it looks alot like a Sig Sauer......

AK47
25-04-2010, 12:16 PM
@Nazim...........We're not by any means "force driving" you into .45, no, not at all, if you wish to stick to the 9mm, perhaps the PT 609, for your concealment issues, would be a choice/compromise, it still resembles the PT 145 very much, yet the only point of discussing the PT 145 here with relevance to your question is that it "fits" into the role superbly and got quite a "punch" to it, and as far as the ammo is concerned, presently there's "abundance" of Armscor rounds in the market, being sold at at around 60/65 per round, which I deem a fit and favorable price for an imported 230 grains round. Serbian Hp's available at 80/85. It is however still recommendable to take a bit of stock of these, just in case market gets short of these, but then we already have a shortage of economical 9mm rounds these days!

@Midreestaj bro..........You're absolutely right regarding the "racking" issue, quite "tight" with the dual spring mechanism, but heck of difference in felt recoil, indeed! :)

MIdreesTaj
25-04-2010, 02:02 PM
2:does it ONLY run on double action?

Taurus PT-145 Mil standard models are DAO (double action only) and so are 24/7 Standard models.
All later PT145 Mil PRO models (3rd generation) and 24/7 PRO DS are both DA/SA.

same with PT 609 PRO DS, it works like a 24/7 PRO DS or 24/7 OSS DS. First shot can be DA and later SA. Slide when racked activates the trigger in SA mode. When decocked it returns to DA. That is why it has double strike feature unlike any other pistol in striker fired category. Round if failed to ignite primer can be given another firing pin strike by subsequent trigger pull which will work in DA.

Except the "Taurus Black Sheep" concept, Taurus Pistols are more ergonomic than most pistols. They fit you like gloves. That is infact a major PLUS point.

AK47
25-04-2010, 02:25 PM
Well explained Midreestaj bro above on the SA/DA modes of 3rd generation Mil Pro models. :) I forgot to reply Nazim Sb's second question above.

Now, I've a major problem with this issue too, discussed at length with Denovo Sir over the phone, that I, with a habit of carrying a "live" round, somehow do not like the idea of an "activated mechanism" with a chambered round, this with regards to the firing pin/spring being in constant "tension" once you have racked the gun for feeding the live round.

With the external hammer models, the principal is quite the reverse in DA mode, in that you can "relieve" the hammer from constant "tension" by re-setting the hammer to "uncocked" position and then take a DA shot whenever needed. Here, with the internal firing mechanism that's not possible coz the moment you rack the gun to feed your chamber with the live round you intend to keep there for days/weeks/months the physical "potential energy" behind the firing mechanism stands "activated" from that moment onwards, and I fear, during a longer period of time this may to some extent or another be detrimental to the firing mechanism. :rolleyes:

The DA modes on the these Taurus guns is principally only for a second strike necessity and unworkable for a first DA shot, and I have seriously contemplated for the next time around that I field-strip my gun, to try loading the 'live" round inside the barrel BEFORE I reassemble it, wonder if this trick would undo my problem of the constant "tension" in the firing mechanism, or if it's possible at all, practically, over to you! :rolleyes:

MIdreesTaj
25-04-2010, 03:30 PM
@AK47 bro doesnt Mil PRO series have a decocker? Like 24/7 pro DS and Oss DS? Cuz I always thought MilPro series were with decockers.. You could chamber a round and decock.. Good to go.. Safe with trigger in a non activated form, topped with firing pin block safety assuring it.

Ok I just updated myself, Millenium PROs dont have decockers. But all 'DS' models have one hence 'DS' decocker safety.

AK47 bro you should chamber and put the safety on. Then keep finger out of the trigger gaurd always, thats the best you can do.. Treat it as a Glock. Or the other way is to practice draw, chamber and fire technique. It is the safest of all and will not let you miss decocker in your pistol.

Salahuddin Ayubi
25-04-2010, 03:58 PM
For Gilani Sb, keeping in view 'his' specific circumstances and position, I would suggest that he stick to the 9mm. Round availability/access, price, practice, etc.

For Nazim Sb, the argument AK47 gave w.r.t. the price and availability of .45 armscor rounds is relevant and my suggestion to him would be to go for 145.

@Vik, the double recoil system has already been well explained by AK above.

@ MidreesTaj, no decocker in 145s bro.

MIdreesTaj
25-04-2010, 04:40 PM
@AK47 bro

Fyi

Taurus 24/7 PRO Compact in .45
Taurus 24/7 PRO Compact in 9mm

These two concealment friendly guns have Decockers on them.

Gilani
25-04-2010, 05:14 PM
Good informative discussion. Anymore handguns available? Any good options in used guns other than Makarov?

Topak
25-04-2010, 06:04 PM
Gilani Sir,
i my self did a lot of effort to find a good CCW in 9mm but the results were not in my favor due to budget problem,
so i moved to smaller bore like .32 and .25,though they have less stopping power in compare to 9mm or 45ACP.
i have got a .25 Czech mouse pistol. now i am finding astra cub .25, they can fit in pocket easily.
i know they are less in stopping power and rounds capacity but to me they are G26 of a poor man.
and remember
LESS IS MORE :)

AK47
25-04-2010, 08:25 PM
Thanks SA, Midreestaj for your comments, and no Midreestaj, you're right, the decocker is missed in the MIl Pro series and I really can't think about the 2-4-7, think I'll have to compromise on a "strained" mechanism in order to keep the chambered round live, unless, of course, my above "theory" on loading that round at the time of field stripping and then not racking the slide proves possible, I doubt it, yet perhaps worth a try! ;)

@SA..........I really doubt Gilani Sb wouldn't go for the . 45, you're trying to stop the man from point of no return! :lol:

Gilani
25-04-2010, 08:30 PM
@SA..........I really doubt Gilani Sb wouldn't go for the . 45, you're trying to stop the man from no point of return! :lol:
First nail was dug by Denovo sahib, lets see how many more I can bare to resist this beauty :rolleyes: :D

Gilani
25-04-2010, 08:37 PM
Gilani Sir,
i my self did a lot of effort to find a good CCW in 9mm but the results were not in my favor due to budget problem,
so i moved to smaller bore like .32 and .25,though they have less stopping power in compare to 9mm or 45ACP.
i have got a .25 Czech mouse pistol. now i am finding astra cub .25, they can fit in pocket easily.
i know they are less in stopping power and rounds capacity but to me they are G26 of a poor man.
and remember
LESS IS MORE :)
Topak bhai, I agree. I think I will have to finally settle down with a Makarov or CZ83 (if I could find one in 9x18 Makarov).

Abu Al Hawl
25-04-2010, 10:57 PM
I have fired around a 100 rounds from my PT 24/7 pro .45, not a single FTF or and FTE. Its quiet concealable, but a little heavy after you have loaded the mag to its capicity. However if u load up with 8 - 9 rounds i think that would do the trick for you but it would be in vicinity of 55k to 62k depending upon your bargaining skills. But if you fancy a 9mm I would suggest you go for either a stoeger or yavuz compact mc or yavuz bora light. All of them are reliable weapons. Stoegar and the yavuz compact mc are a little heavier than the bora light. These would fall in the vicintiy of 45k - 65k. I recently accompanied a friend to lucky star and he bought the bora light for 46.5k
However if you are under some sort of a threat or whatever your reason for carrying the weapon do refer to the thread Art of double tap and CQC. I think it would come in handy.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4415

Bro, becoz its your compulsion to use US made ammo!!!

Gilani
25-04-2010, 11:10 PM
I have fired around a 100 rounds from my PT 24/7 pro .45, not a single FTF or and FTE. Its quiet concealable, but a little heavy after you have loaded the mag to its capicity. However if u load up with 8 - 9 rounds i think that would do the trick for you but it would be in vicinity of 55k to 62k depending upon your bargaining skills. But if you fancy a 9mm I would suggest you go for either a stoeger or yavuz compact mc or yavuz bora light. All of them are reliable weapons. Stoegar and the yavuz compact mc are a little heavier than the bora light. These would fall in the vicintiy of 45k - 65k. I recently accompanied a friend to lucky star and he bought the bora light for 46.5k
However if you are under some sort of a threat or whatever your reason for carrying the weapon do refer to the thread Art of double tap and CQC. I think it would come in handy.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4415

Bro, becoz its your compulsion to use US made ammo!!!

+1 Abu Al Hawl sahib :)

Abu Al Hawl
25-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Admi ka Topak aisa howay ke Pather ko bhi fire kare, then it should be called a REAL TOPAK

Gilani
25-04-2010, 11:16 PM
Absolutely agreed. I have always believed that any weapon which is ammo sensitive (specially to local POF ammo) due to any reason, has a serious limitation attached to it :)

MIdreesTaj
25-04-2010, 11:18 PM
on loading that round at the time of field stripping and then not racking the slide proves possible, I doubt it, yet perhaps worth a try! ;)

Sir it is my request that please do not try this. This entirely isnt a safe thing rather very dangerous to feed a round in chamber before assembly of gun. You know any thing could go wrong while doing this. BIG NO Sir!

Abu Al Hawl
25-04-2010, 11:19 PM
that is why i LOVE BARATA, the beretta, i have even fired the rounds which were rejected by any otehr pistols :D

AK47
25-04-2010, 11:44 PM
I know Mid bro, you're being caring in above suggestion, and I shall try avoiding that incident, at the maximum, perhaps, use a fired shell just for curiosity's sake to check out whether if this IS possible or not. :rolleyes: Thanks however for your kind words, heck how to get a decocker on these variants! :mad: :lol:

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 12:59 AM
Thanks alot guys for all your input on the matter...........i have decided to get a PT 145 after thinking about it...i still need to ask a few friends i have but i think it would be the wisest choice....a last few questions I have for you fine gentlemen.....
1:Where could i get a Brand new Pt 145 in islamabad?In the right price.People are telling me to go to the taurus official place in Lahore.......
2:No one answered my question about it being used as double action only.Would this be advisible?I plan on having a round in the chamber which isnt safe because no matter how safe it is i wouldnt feel right having a .45 aimed at my croch with a hollopoint in the barrel ready to blow my nuts off.I wouldnt feel v comfy doing that:/
That is why i prefer external; hammers cuz that way you have complete control and thats why i dont like glocks.....does the pt145 have decocking lever?
3:I heard there are old and new models of pt 145 is that correct?which should i ask for at the store?
Thx alot guys...

AK47
26-04-2010, 01:13 AM
@Nazim Sb...........Wise choice, just secure yourself a basic stock of ammo, and as regards the "decocker", no the Mil Pro series does not come with one, but as suggested above by Midreestaj bro, keep the safety on with a chambered round and relax, nothing wil happen to the "nuts", don't worry! Ha ha ha! :lol:

The gun is both SA and DA, second strike possibility.

Yes, there are both new and old ones out there, but check out the gun and the box, there'll be a manufacture date on the box, and also a few cosmetic differences between the new and old. Check out threads by myself, Denovo Sir and SA about the gun, you'll find out how the new one is supposed to look like. My thread is : "TOYZ" in handguns sector, Denovo Sir's is "TOYS"!

Finally, I really doubt it's availability in Isb/Rwp, this is a rare item of the newer guns, think you'll have to visit Lahore, ask if Naveed could come to your assistance, he already booked one for himself just yesterday!

Price will be around 60K, a little more, a little less! Good luck, anyhow, Regards. :)

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 01:47 AM
thx Mr AK 47 if you could answer a question
How does the 145 work?its DOUBLE ACTION ONLY????
I havent encountered any such gun before as i am originally a non piustol believer so i am a bit new to handguns.
I have used a Sig sauer and taurus but the thing is that they automatically go into single action after using the first round on double this isnt the case for a 145?
it just stays in double action?as in if i chamber a round it will stay in double action?
And what do you think about the cz 999?it looks fantastic and my budget is 60 k....its also well below my budget but what do you think about it?s it better then a Sarsilmax or any turkish pistol?

AK47
26-04-2010, 07:29 AM
Nazim Sb, the DA/SA modes of the PT 145 have already been exhaustively dealt with above by myself and Midreestaj bro, but O.K let me just clarify for you again since you're relatively new to handguns, the PT 145 dear is both DA/SA.

From the moment you rack the gun the first time with a loaded mag and feed the first round into the chamber, it's in SA mode, facilitating a light trigger pull for your first and subsequent shots. Trigger of this gun is light in this mode, yet very nice and kind of comfortably "crisp", I really like the feeling of it.

And from the very unfortunate moment of a "failure to fire", mostly because of faulty ammo, the gun settles to DA mode, enabling you second/multiple strike possibility.

The CZ 999 you mention, nice gun, just not my cup of tea, yet an adorable item in 9mm. You can't compare these two things, 45 ACP is sheer "knock down" power, only seconded by .357 Mag, that too, marginally only. :)

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 09:41 AM
Thx AK 47 for your patience what i feared is quite true...like you said in a earliar msg i too feel uncomfy having a round in the chamber and the hammer pulled back.....I plan on ALWAYS keeping a round in the chamber and wouldnt feel right doing that with the hammer back it wouldnt be good for the pin or for me if the pin decides its had enough lolz
thx for the assist

Salahuddin Ayubi
26-04-2010, 10:17 AM
@ Nazim Sb,

Your queries have been well explained by AK47 above.

I'd just like to add one more thing here:

There are three generations of PT 145 out there.

The first generation is the one which is to be avoided at all costs. The second and third generation ones are to be considered as they are free from any of the problems which the first generation ones had (misfire, striker issue, frame/slide cracking, etc).

The first generation is not the 'Pro' model. It is simply PT145 Millennium. NOT TO BUY THIS ONE.

The second generation has Millennium Pro written on one side while PT145 written on the other. Second generation ones are "DA only". Check out my pics towards the end of AK47's thread http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4057

The third generation has Millennium written on one side while PT145 Pro written on the other side. Third generation ones are "DS/SA" - as explained by AK47 above. Check out his pics at the beginning of his thread http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4057

I have the second generation one, while Denovo and AK have the third generation.

Based on 'my own' research, I was in favour of a DA only 'compact' handgun which I intended to use for CCW purposes. Safer and more accurate in my personal opinion. It also takes care of your concern of carrying with one in the chamber. DA only is comparatively safer in such conditions. Might I add that the trigger pull of second generation DA only 145s is so light that you may easily refer to it as makhan.

In any case, I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that you buy this piece of art.

It is, without a doubt, a COMPACT CANNON.

Salahuddin Ayubi
26-04-2010, 10:21 AM
@SA..........I really doubt Gilani Sb wouldn't go for the . 45, you're trying to stop the man from point of no return! :lol:

The guy loves to practice and consumes ammo many times more than you and I. Moreover, the price differential for him between a 9mm and .45 is much higher that it is for you and I.

I'm not stopping him bro. It's just that I'm trying to bring things in their right perspective here. ;)

Fikar na karain AK, the 145 club is going to be a hit within a shaaart time :)

Basharat
26-04-2010, 10:31 AM
@ Nazim Sahib

Sir you should also look into the Walther PPS it is the ideal conceal carry weapon.

http://www.walther-pps.com/

ARJ
26-04-2010, 10:32 AM
will do sir. i am not very good at photography but i will try to take them to the best of my skills, i hope a person as skilled as you can forgive me on that :)

@ Fahad Bro,
Since you are going to check out prices can i request you to also check out the availability & price of CZ999 in karachi market, also wats the ongoing price of CF98 (with Logo) :)

fahd.mehmood
26-04-2010, 10:57 AM
MAKAROV

Rs23000-Rs25000 (Used-Russian)
Local Ammo (Rs40 - Rs50)
Commy Ammo (Rs100 - Rs120)

Thats the cheapest and most sensible option for CC if money is an issue.

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW :)

fahadkhalid
26-04-2010, 10:58 AM
I have fired around a 100 rounds from my PT 24/7 pro .45, not a single FTF or and FTE. Its quiet concealable, but a little heavy after you have loaded the mag to its capicity. However if u load up with 8 - 9 rounds i think that would do the trick for you but it would be in vicinity of 55k to 62k depending upon your bargaining skills. But if you fancy a 9mm I would suggest you go for either a stoeger or yavuz compact mc or yavuz bora light. All of them are reliable weapons. Stoegar and the yavuz compact mc are a little heavier than the bora light. These would fall in the vicintiy of 45k - 65k. I recently accompanied a friend to lucky star and he bought the bora light for 46.5k
However if you are under some sort of a threat or whatever your reason for carrying the weapon do refer to the thread Art of double tap and CQC. I think it would come in handy.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4415

Bro, becoz its your compulsion to use US made ammo!!!


where exactly did I say i use US made ammo??? I either use magtech or prvi. Now i dont know for what reason you made that comment, so i will clearify all of them.

1) Yes the 24/7 feels alot heavier after you have loaded the mag to its capcity, no matter you use the magtech (sao paulo, brazil) or prvi (serbia) rounds.
2) Yes the turkish weapons i mentioned are reliable and not ammo sensitive. I myself have had the oppurtunity to fire a combination of magtech, prvi, chinese and local rounds altogather loaded into one mag. we have conducted this test on around a 50 rounds each make. not a single FTF or a single FTE.
so in your words, i do think i own a REAL TOPAK.

fahadkhalid
26-04-2010, 11:01 AM
will do sir. i am not very good at photography but i will try to take them to the best of my skills, i hope a person as skilled as you can forgive me on that :)

@ Fahad Bro,
Since you are going to check out prices can i request you to also check out the availability & price of CZ999 in karachi market, also wats the ongoing price of CF98 (with Logo) :)


I will do that. I am not sure which logo you are asking me to look for on a CF98 because i have never used that gun, but i will try to take a friend with me who owns a CF98. CZ999 i will check out for you.

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 02:53 PM
Thx so much for the info SA it really helped alot and explained things perfectly and neatly to me.

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 03:02 PM
If the second generation is DA only and 3rd gen is DA/SA then why not get a 2nd generation?because it is imparitive i get a handgun which would have a round in the chamber at all times.......accuracy wont matter since my target wouldnt be far.............

Salahuddin Ayubi
26-04-2010, 04:11 PM
That's "your" choice Nazim.

Something to add here regarding 2nd generation DAO only PT145 Pro:

While doing my online research on 145 Pro couple of months back. I found 3 different magazine reviews on it and the listed trigger-pull weight (DAO) range was 6-8 pounds, which was better than the impression I had. The stock Glock trigger is supposed to be 5.5 lbs.

This mean't that the PT145 Pro DAO triggers are only a 0.5 lb to 1.5 lb heavier than Glock's. PT145 Pro's trigger is a beauty compared to several other DAO options within same range. And once I dry fired it couple of times at Al-Haris while I was there to buy it, I was completely sold at the smooooth (makhan) trigger pull I experienced.

For more insight on DAO pistol accuracy, read this
http://teppoudo.org/17-double-action-first-shot-with-a-dasa-pistol

AK47
26-04-2010, 04:49 PM
If the second generation is DA only and 3rd gen is DA/SA then why not get a 2nd generation?because it is imparitive i get a handgun which would have a round in the chamber at all times.......accuracy wont matter since my target wouldnt be far.............

@Nazim Sb.............You're in for an even harder "hunt" by now! That SA bro secured it (the 2.nd Gen), I"m pretty much sure it was more of an unintended coincidence to him! Yet a nice coincidence, anyhow, I like the DA only mode as well, if it's really some form of "makhan" touch! :D Well done, SA, you got something I do miss! ;)

The 3rd Gen is short in the market, whilst you wanna pursue the 2.nd Gen one! Honestly speaking, if available, fine, otherwise try out the PT 609 bro and adjust yourself somewhere with the looks of the 45 ACP, the economy and easy availability of the 9.mm. You're new to the handguns, perhaps .45 is too explosive a start, next option, if this doesn't appeal to you, better go for the Stoeger, it's one of the finest 9mm handguns in terms of reliability and also not very "unconcealable" as such. Something tells me, we're back to square one after +50 posts or so! :)

Nazim Sahib
26-04-2010, 11:46 PM
HAHAHAHAHAH I agree completelly AK 47.....I spoke to my friends who know my situation and they told me NOT to get a handgun which is single action and no external hammer......But still its a fun having money and being able to check out everything in the market but still the advice you had all given me was sound....but everyone has there own choice and preference.....

Nazim Sahib
27-04-2010, 12:09 AM
I know you guys must be sick of me and how i find a new more and more "interesting " pistol ......but what would you guys prefer....a Baikal mp-466 or a cz 999?

thx people

Shariq
27-04-2010, 12:19 AM
Bro both are unsuitable for conceal carry. If CC is a requirement then you have all the info in the thread to take a decision.

Both are excellent weapons and are highly recommended by experts. CZ is better value for money.

AK47
27-04-2010, 12:23 AM
@Nazim bro, you're moving from guns to tanks now! :lol: Both above models are nice tanks!

Look, load yourself with the cash, I'll call Naveed in Lahore to accomodate you, you won't come back empty handed, rest assured! ;)

Aquarius
27-04-2010, 01:04 AM
@Nazim bro, you're moving from guns to tanks now! :lol: Both above models are nice tanks!

:lol: +1 AK47 brother.
BTW Nazim sahib both these guns you mentioned are the best guns in their price range...rough & tough, reliable as hell and quite accurate...but both these are not for conceal carry as per your requirement...other than that they are perfect weapons.... :)

Salahuddin Ayubi
27-04-2010, 09:47 AM
I know you guys must be sick of me and how i find a new more and more "interesting " pistol ......but what would you guys prefer....a Baikal mp-466 or a cz 999?

thx people

I would prefer one of each. :)

MP446 is like a Russian Tank while the CZ999 - a Land Rover. PT145 Pro is like a Mini Cooper with 4500cc engine while a Stoeger Couger - a Toyota Platz.

Take your pick. Each can be had within 65k budget.

AK47
27-04-2010, 10:09 AM
Ha ha ha, SA, agree with the remaining of your comparisons above like Land Rover, 4500 CC engine, etc, but kindly raise the level of the Cougar a bit from Platz to that of at least a "Belta"! It's a bit more "finessed" than a simple flat "Platz"! :lol: :lol:

Salahuddin Ayubi
27-04-2010, 10:12 AM
Ok. Belta it is :lol: Initially I'd thought of Suzuki Swift 2010 model. hehehe. Sirjee, app chahain to Premio banadaytay hain.

(Bro, just that although I know that it is a pretty good pistol, still its an over-rated one here at PG ... my personal view ofcourse and anyone should feel free to disagree.)

AK47
27-04-2010, 10:19 AM
@SA...........Standardized now, thanks. :lol:

About "over rating", well quite an individual opinion indeed, you're right perhaps, it's just that heck it works EVERY time, besides as I talked to Den yesterday, "field-stripping" of a Beretta line gun is one PLEASURE by itself, the feel of heavy "iron" in hands is quite another! You know it, from your 92! ;)

Salahuddin Ayubi
27-04-2010, 10:21 AM
I do. You're right.

Nazim Sahib
27-04-2010, 11:54 AM
acha how can you guys say there tanks????I`m not much into cars,but by the way you guys are going I drive a .22 lr(vitz) lolz
I know there bad for concealed carry but there both absolutelly beautifull peices at very very nice prices......
Mr AK 47 what do you mean by calling Naveed/Is he a arms dealer?I believe in russian weapons alot having been a huge fan of all russian weapons ....besides pistols because i havent been a fan of the TT or makarov.....but still these two peices are absolute beauties that i would want in my hand if i had to chose....i think there even better then taraus 24/7`s.

ARJ
27-04-2010, 11:58 AM
@ AK 47 & SA bros,
Always a delight to go through your conversations of you three (although Denvo missing) :D

Ak47 Bro,
Sir i was in ISloo on saturday tried calling you alot but couldnt get through to you. :( .... but i met two of the most amazing human beings ever, Both experts in their fields and yet so humble it was almost unbelievable. I had always read & heard " ka phal dar darakht jhokay hota hain per milna ka itefaq pheli bar howa ! :) As always PG has yet again showed some more of the gems in its crown, "Dr ZAkir & Moeen Sb" !, It was real pleasure meeting the two of them and i want to thank them from the bottom of my heart for taking out time for me.

" its bye bye stoegar and CZ999 here i come "!

PS: @ Naveed Bro,
The credit goes to you as well sir for being so helpful and making the opportunity to meet the two gentlemen. Now i must meet you too bro ! ;)

ARJ
27-04-2010, 12:01 PM
@ fahadkhalid bro,
Any news of your market venture ?

Salahuddin Ayubi
27-04-2010, 12:27 PM
acha how can you guys say there tanks????I`m not much into cars,but by the way you guys are going I drive a .22 lr(vitz) lolz
I know there bad for concealed carry but there both absolutelly beautifull peices at very very nice prices......
Mr AK 47 what do you mean by calling Naveed/Is he a arms dealer?I believe in russian weapons alot having been a huge fan of all russian weapons ....besides pistols because i havent been a fan of the TT or makarov.....but still these two peices are absolute beauties that i would want in my hand if i had to chose....i think there even better then taraus 24/7`s.

Tanks because these two (446 and 999) are two 'built like a tank' pieces.

Naveed_pk is one of our honorable members whose hospitality and selflessness knows no bounds. He is one of those members of PakGuns who go 'out of the way' to help and facilitate other fellow PG members.

Read about 999 and 446 in our handguns section to learn more about this land rover and tank. Personally speaking, if I plan to expand my handgun collection, these two would be in my top five list.

fahadkhalid
27-04-2010, 12:52 PM
Dear Brethen, I am sorry i could not fulfil my promise for the market visit. ran into an accident yesterday, hurt my leg pretty bad, nothing broken, but bruised very badly. so as soon as i am up and able to walk, i will post my findings over here. i hope you people can forgive me.

AK47
27-04-2010, 01:47 PM
@ AK 47 & SA bros,
Always a delight to go through your conversations of you three (although Denvo missing) :D

Ak47 Bro,
Sir i was in ISloo on saturday tried calling you alot but couldnt get through to you. :( .... but i met two of the most amazing human beings ever, Both experts in their fields and yet so humble it was almost unbelievable. I had always read & heard " ka phal dar darakht jhokay hota hain per milna ka itefaq pheli bar howa ! :) As always PG has yet again showed some more of the gems in its crown, "Dr ZAkir & Moeen Sb" !, It was real pleasure meeting the two of them and i want to thank them from the bottom of my heart for taking out time for me.

" its bye bye stoegar and CZ999 here i come "!

PS: @ Naveed Bro,
The credit goes to you as well sir for being so helpful and making the opportunity to meet the two gentlemen. Now i must meet you too bro ! ;)

@ARJ.............Really sorry about above visit, did not have your contact details, nor checked one of your prior posts in another thread timely, so was expecting a call and an sms from you, unfortunately neither of these were received! :(

If life permits anytime in the future, I owe you some good time around here, pray that opportunity lands down in my fate sometime soon! Regards. :)

@Nazim bro.............Naveed is no arms dealer bro, he's a "jewel" of PG, and rightly pointed out above by SA, one great guy who goes out of the bounds, when hosting visiting PG members in Lahore. I owe him a lot, he's our Lahore strongman whom we can entrust anything, any load. Check below, one of his fresh gestures today, sent directly to me, coz my Lahore visit has been delayed yet needed this item for my weapons:

http://s1.postimage.org/uHDPi.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxuHDPi)

Thanks Naveed for a very friendly gesture, really appreciate it a lot, my weapons were "thirsting" for it! ;)

ay_be_why
27-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Dear Brethen, I am sorry i could not fulfil my promise for the market visit. ran into an accident yesterday, hurt my leg pretty bad, nothing broken, but bruised very badly. so as soon as i am up and able to walk, i will post my findings over here. i hope you people can forgive me.

Sorry to hear about the accident. Bro hope you get well soon. Prices and market surveys CAN wait. :)

fahadkhalid
27-04-2010, 02:21 PM
Thank you for your prayers. But i dont like to miss out on committments i make. but i guess its as the saying goes "Man purposes, God disposes"

Naveed_pk
27-04-2010, 02:22 PM
@SA,@Ak47,@ARJ, Thanks a lot guyz for ure comments :) .. But Plz Plz Dont take me so High .. I am just an ordinary person having precious brothers like u .. The Hospitality i do is in every Pakguns members blood .. You all guyz are so nice i cant stop my self being going "out of the way" ... Thanks once again brother's
@Ak47 welcome sir anytime ... Hope u have used this on ure guns ..Its an excellent lubricant

Naveed_pk
27-04-2010, 02:23 PM
@Fahad Sorry to hear about the accident Bro ... Get well soon :)

AK47
27-04-2010, 04:47 PM
@fahad, sorry about your accident bro, get well soon. :)

@ Naveed..........Sure bro, next full week will be pre-summer cleaning period, one thing at a time to be bursted/cleaned with this item. Pre-cleaning has already been done with WD-40, but it doesn't have the "evaporating" effect to the the extent of Brunox, nor the "fragrance", "non-stickiness", thank a lots again, no closet complete without Brunox! :)

Shariq
27-04-2010, 05:03 PM
Get well soon Fahad.

Gilani
27-04-2010, 07:14 PM
Fahad sahib get well soon :)

Aquarius
27-04-2010, 09:06 PM
fahad brother sorry to hear that... get well soon.... :)

Gilani
27-04-2010, 11:27 PM
OK, coming back to the topic of this thread, ie, cocneal carry handguns.

One thing which I am sure is understood by all, is the purpose of a conceal carry gun. That is to say when a person wants to carry a gun for self defence yet does not want anyone to know that he is carrying a gun (unless he is physically searched or closely inspected), would carry a gun which is small enough to be concealed. If this statement is true than IMHO, it implies that in CC, size of foremost importance. Equally important is the reliability, accuracy (up to 7-10 m only) and potency.

Lets take them one by one.

Size. What should be the ideal size for CC. Well, that might differ from man to man. Obviously, a gun which would be too large to be concealed by a 5'6" man of skinny built might be a very concealable gun for a man of say 6'5" height and a heavy built. Also, during winters, even a large gun can be concealed but during summers in warm areas, it may be difficult to conceal a much smaller gun. However, in our part of the world where the weather is mostly warm rather hot and average built is not very large, we would need a comparatively smaller gun for CC. IMHO, a gun of less than 6.5 inches length (163 mm) and 1.2 inches width (30 mm) is bare minimum for conceal carry. Any thing smaller would be a bonus. Moreover, the gun should not be too heavy also. Max of 750 gm weight may be taken as standard, lesser the better.

Reliability. A CC gun, which would mostly be used at closer ranges under life threatening environment, has to be absolutely reliable. No compromise on this. Any gun that is ammo sensitive is strongly not recommended, no matter how small it may be.

Accuracy. General understanding is that since a CC gun is to be used in self defence at very short ranges, it does not need to be a very accurate one and even a less accurate gun would do. I disagree with this line of thinking. IMHO, a CC gun is to be used for a very very serious business, ie, saving ones life. It has to be dead accurate at 7-10 M at least. That is why we see that all good CC guns like Sig P239, Glock 26, Kahr K9, Kahr MK9, HK 2000sk, Ruger SR9, Walther PPK etc are dead accurate at 7m, capable of making a 2-3 inches group from this distance. If a gun makes say 7-8 inches group away from the bull from 7-10 m distance, it cant be trusted at a time when the heartbeat is likely to be 120 and hands might be trembling. In such conditions, most normal human beings would not be able to fire as accurately as they do during routine range practices. So one can't relegate accuracy at any cost. IMHO, the only difference in the accuracy expected of a range gun and of a CC gun is of distance. A good range gun makes a 2-3 inch group at 25-30 M, a good CC gun does the same up to say 10 M, that's it. With an inaccurate range gun, one is likely to loose a match. With an inaccurate CC gun, one may end up losing his life :(

Potency. A CC gun must have good stopping power. It is said that shot placement is what matters. Agreed. However, preferably one should be using such ammo that even if he misses the vitals, the target is neautralised to a great extent. I would therefore not recommend a caliber smaller than .380 ACP or 9x18mm Makarov for CC. 9x19 parabellum would be better. .45 ACP would have a very potent stopping power but would also increase the overall weight and decrease the overall capacity. However, 9x19 and .45 ACP, both would be appropriate, having their own advantages and disadvantages.

I can't say about other members who may have different requirements for CC or may have a different idea of CC. But in my personal manner of thinking, these are the traits that one should look into while selecting a CC gun.

Unfortunately, we don't find many affordable guns in Pakistani markets that fulfill the above mentioned criteria. :(

Denovo87
27-04-2010, 11:54 PM
Very nicely put Gilani bro, onething I am not that much on agreement, that is reliability with regards to the ammo sensitivety of a handgun. First of all one should never use I repeat NEVER use a substandard ammo for CC or SD/HD, secondly one only can trust (to the level you mentioned above) a gun for CC once he has fired atleast 300 rounds from that particular gun, with this much ammo fired through you easily can pick the best ammo which your gun cycles with 100% reliability :)

My humble advise is test your gun (you want to assign the duty of life saving weapon) for atleast 300 rounds before putting it on, it will help you to understand your gun more for accuracy and reliability :)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 12:10 AM
Fully agreed Sir, actually one should not trust any gun for any purpose unless he has fired 200-300 rounds from it. As for sensitivity to a particular ammo, I am talking of the handguns which do well with one type of branded ammo and do not do well with other. In my personal manner of thinking, I would like to stay away from such handguns which fire well with few brands of ammo and do not fire well with few other well reputed brands (by brands, I mean ammo manufactured by proper ammo factories, both local as well as foreign and not darra made non standard ammo ). To be more precise, any handgun (in 9x19 mm) that can not fire POF or Chinese ammo well would not be my choice as an individual (because these are perhaps two brands whose supply is mostly guaranteed). A reliable gun in my view should fire all types of branded ammo without any problems. But everyone has his own preferences and experiences............. :)

Denovo87
28-04-2010, 12:38 AM
That right Gilani bro, the actual purpose of putting 300+ round through is to check what is the best way (ammo in other sense) to get the BEST OUT OF YOUR GUN.

Incase a gun having all the required characters except the ammo digestion, we easily can find & feed it with what she cycles reliably as you know we dont have much available in our market to choose from, for CC :) and trust me any ammo sensitive handgun can take ORIGINAL POF 2Z without a hitch ;)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 12:41 AM
OK Sir, this one is solved. :D

Now solve the other problem also, the CC gun itself ;)

Denovo87
28-04-2010, 12:52 AM
OK Sir, this one is solved. :D

Now solve the other problem also, the CC gun itself ;)


Its already been found; PT145 ;)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 12:58 AM
OK, done :)

AK47
28-04-2010, 02:02 AM
O.K done here too! Ha ha ha, may I just intervene with you two senior gurus, one more benefit of putting through those 2-3 hundreds rounds you suggest above for ammo/gun reliabilty/compatability, is SHOT PLACEMENT, which by then for sure should have improved considerably! Unless of course, they went off vertically only! ;)

fahadkhalid
28-04-2010, 10:49 AM
Thank you all for your prayers.

Salahuddin Ayubi
28-04-2010, 11:35 AM
BRAVO! Gilani Sb. As always, your comprehensive analysis are a great treat to read.


O.K done here too! Ha ha ha, may I just intervene with you two senior gurus, one more benefit of putting through those 2-3 hundreds rounds you suggest above for ammo/gun reliabilty/compatability, is SHOT PLACEMENT, which by then for sure should have improved considerably! Unless of course, they went off vertically only! ;)

Yaar I need .45 armscor ammo @ cheaper rate. This 80/- rate is quite high for this 300 test period (24k). :(

ARJ
28-04-2010, 11:54 AM
@ Gilani & Denvo and other senior knowledgeable Members
Looking at the excellent piece of explaination by Gilani bro, what would be an ideal choice for the following price range for CCW then ?

1. Less than Rs : 30,000
2. Less than Rs: 40,000
3. Less than Rs: 50,000
4. Less than Rs: 60,000
5. Less than Rs 100,000

PS:
i know most ideal weapons would be above this range but lets see what comes up in the above budget range considering the average pakistani afforadbility range (Which again i think can be debatable :P)

fahadkhalid
28-04-2010, 12:01 PM
@Brother ARJ what calibre are you talking about??? you will have to specify the calibre. or else the list would go on and on and on.

ARJ
28-04-2010, 12:14 PM
Well i thought 9 mm was an ideal choice for CCW for the weight issue

Gilani
28-04-2010, 04:41 PM
Looking at the excellent piece of explaination by Gilani bro, what would be an ideal choice for the following price range for CCW then ?

1. Less than Rs : 30,000
2. Less than Rs: 40,000
3. Less than Rs: 50,000
4. Less than Rs: 60,000
5. Less than Rs 100,000


Brother, you ask about the ideal choice. I don't even find one gun each to fill in all the five columns that you have mentioned. :D

Can any market guru help ???????

Kamranwali
28-04-2010, 04:56 PM
hey there guys.

How abt a S&W 6906.

calibre: 9mm Luger
weight: 26.5ounces, ~750grams
Overall Length: 6 7/8"
Barrel Length: 3.5"
Magazine capacity: 12

Gilani
28-04-2010, 05:20 PM
Kamran sahib
What I know, S&W 6906 is a very fine handgun though a little too big and fat for CC. Its basically a duty pistol. But are they available in Pakistan???
If yes, from where and at what price:?

Kamranwali
28-04-2010, 05:31 PM
Dear Gilani Sahib,

Dunno abt availability nowadays, got mine abt 8 years ago NIB. Still have it, around 300 rounds fired, no issue with it as yet. Has Novak sights. Abt big, I dont think so. Abt fat, well slightly. But makes a very good CC weapon, no issue wearing it under clothes due to bobbed hammer and rounded off surfaces for snag free drawing.

Have been thinking abt doing a review on it, but honestly with my work schedule nowadays, can hardly find the time for it.

ARJ
28-04-2010, 05:39 PM
Dear Gilani Sahib,

Dunno abt availability nowadays, got mine abt 8 years ago NIB. Still have it, around 300 rounds fired, no issue with it as yet. Has Novak sights. Abt big, I dont think so. Abt fat, well slightly. But makes a very good CC weapon, no issue wearing it under clothes due to bobbed hammer and rounded off surfaces for snag free drawing.

Have been thinking abt doing a review on it, but honestly with my work schedule nowadays, can hardly find the time for it.

Kamran bro,
how much did you buy your S&W 6906 for 8 years ago?

Kamranwali
28-04-2010, 05:48 PM
@ARJ Bro,

Got it as a gift from my dad. :) still wont tell me the price.

ARJ
28-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Kamran Bro,

its a priceless gift man! :cool:

Kamranwali
28-04-2010, 06:37 PM
@ARJ Bro,

Thanks a lot. Will give your msg to my Dad. :)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 07:21 PM
Kamran sahib, it's lovely to have such a nice handgun. :)

Aquarius
28-04-2010, 08:27 PM
Great gun your dad has gifted you... take good care of it kamran brother....... :)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 09:09 PM
.................what would be an ideal choice for the following price range for CCW then ?

1. Less than Rs : 30,000
2. Less than Rs: 40,000
3. Less than Rs: 50,000
4. Less than Rs: 60,000
5. Less than Rs 100,000

PS:
i know most ideal weapons would be above this range but lets see what comes up in the above budget range considering the average pakistani afforadbility range (Which again i think can be debatable :P)

Any input on this gentlemen :)

Ilyas
28-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Nice gun Kamran... would love to see few pics :)

Coming back to the question of best available guns for CC in the various price ranges mentioned by ARJ,
I would like to recommend the following two:

Upto 30k... .30 cal TT (though it's not bacically a CC design, but among the available choices and the given price,
it's easier to conceal due to its slim shape. Finding a good quality 9mm for CC in this price, is not possible.
Upto 60k... Makarov (9x18mm)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 09:45 PM
Ilyas sahib, how much a good condition Makarov costs in Peshawar? Any idea?

Ilyas
28-04-2010, 09:55 PM
It should be 45-60k, depending upon the condition. Personally haven't seen the new Baikal one which was
available few weeks ago, but that seemed great, in the pics. Acquarius must have seen it and can give a
better opinion about that.

Gilani
28-04-2010, 10:13 PM
Thanks Ilyas bhai :)

Ilyas
28-04-2010, 10:24 PM
@Gillani bhai... No problem at all! if ever need any help when you want to get one,
it will be a pleasure to help you find it :)

Gilani
28-04-2010, 10:25 PM
So grateful Ilyas bhai. :)

AK47
28-04-2010, 10:27 PM
@Salaams Ilyas bro........... :) Well, which is the "Baikal" above Sir that you refer to, some sort of NIB Makarov, or what?

Ilyas
28-04-2010, 10:41 PM
@AK... Salams Bro! Hope all is fine at home :) Yes refering to the Baikal 442 Mak. Just found the thread where
Acquarius had posted some pics.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=108462#p108462

Dr Zakir
28-04-2010, 11:44 PM
I am thinking of buying a beretta tomcat or bobcat , they are real conceal carry guns

ARJ
28-04-2010, 11:50 PM
Nice choice Dr sb, but then what kind of price range are we taking about for these beauties?

Gilani
29-04-2010, 12:19 AM
I am thinking of buying a beretta tomcat or bobcat , they are real conceal carry guns
Very concealable guns Dr sahib but the caliber.......... How about Kahr K9 or Kahr MK9 in 9x19 parabellum, if you can get one :)

Aquarius
29-04-2010, 12:30 AM
I am thinking of buying a beretta tomcat or bobcat , they are real conceal carry guns
Very concealable guns Dr sahib but the caliber.......... How about Kahr K9 or Kahr MK9 in 9x19 parabellum, if you can get one :)

Or a Keltec PF9 and a Rohrbaugh R9..... true mouse guns with a 9mm punch........ :)

Gilani
29-04-2010, 12:34 AM
yes........ all nice guns. But we can just talk about them :(

Aquarius
29-04-2010, 12:43 AM
@Gilani & AK47: Brothers tomorrow I will inform you about the price of this new Baikal 442 Makarov Inshallah.... last time I checked was about 2 weeks before & its price has dropped from 70k to 60K...hope this time it will be further down...its a very good piece for concealed carry, but its price should be not more than 50K..... :)

Aquarius
29-04-2010, 11:57 AM
@Gilani & AK47: Brothers tomorrow I will inform you about the price of this new Baikal 442 Makarov Inshallah.... last time I checked was about 2 weeks before & its price has dropped from 70k to 60K...hope this time it will be further down...its a very good piece for concealed carry, but its price should be not more than 50K..... :)

Called the dealer today... its short in stock rite now... said that all the peices sold out like hot cakes... new stock will be coming in 3 weeks to a month time...price tag is still 60K, but can be negotiable....... :)

Gilani
29-04-2010, 04:02 PM
Aquarius brother, thanks for the trouble :)

Aquarius
29-04-2010, 04:54 PM
No trouble at all Gilani Sir... would like to serve you whenever you want..... :)

Gilani
29-04-2010, 05:24 PM
Very grateful Sir. You and Faisji sahib are old Makarov users. What is your experience about Makarov ammo with regard to its potency in comparison with 9x19. How about its availability in future?

Gilani
29-04-2010, 05:41 PM
And one more thing Aquarius brother. I have noticed that MP442 is a little thicker at the grip portion than the traditional Makarov. Since you have seen this MP442 version, what is your view about its concealability as compared to a traditional Makarov.

Aquarius
29-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Very grateful Sir. You and Faisji sahib are old Makarov users. What is your experience about Makarov ammo with regard to its potency in comparison with 9x19. How about its availability in future?

Gilani Sir I am not that experienced with Maks as Faisji brother because I have not used it much, so he is the rite person to give his comments regarding this handgun ... as per my case I had only & only fired 100 to 150 rounds through mine, and it was very good...no problem of any kind with those number of rounds so far.. Quite reliable and accurate too and has a very nice trigger.. the main issue is the lack of variety of ammo for it.. but when these new models arrives in the market, then I dont think the ammo problem will be there because, no dealer will import only handguns without ammunition.... :)

As far as the grip of these new Maks is concerned, yes ofcourse as its a double stack magazine so the grips are a little wider than the older ones, but not that much.. I dont think its a big deal & can be manage easily.. one other difference is that the magazine release is situated above the trigger guard (as with other guns in the market) as compared to the older ones whose magazine release is at the bottom of magazine well.. personally I feel comfortable with this newly located magazine release than the older one which is a PIA..... ;)

Faisji
29-04-2010, 08:58 PM
I personally found 9 maks to be adequate rounds for SD and HD use.As far stopping ability myt experience is that a single mass shot was not enough to drop a man but using double taps was quite effective.A frined of mine whose a policeman once during a encounter fataly stopped a BG at about 45 meters with double tap.Russian OMON and spetnaz troops swear by it potency and still prefer these guns.

Ammo is in short supply at the moment but will apppear in market more and more once MP442 is estalished in the market.

AK47
29-04-2010, 09:45 PM
Perhaps a bit of ballistics on the 9mm short would have been appreciated here.

Personally, I find the new version as one handy gun, suitable for concealment, and Gilani Sir, the newer version is manufactured with both 8/12 rounds capability, the latter one's grip being somewhat longer. I feel the picture above is of the 12 shots one, and furthermore for shooters of your routine, the sight on the newer one is adjustable for windage/ elevation with "clicks"! :)

Gilani
29-04-2010, 10:52 PM
Thanks for the input Aquarius brother. Now waiting for Faisji sahib's input :)

Kamranwali
29-04-2010, 11:35 PM
Hey there guys.
Here are a few pics i promised. Please excuse the inferior photography.

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/kamranwali10/hg/DSCF4623e.jpg

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/kamranwali10/hg/DSCF4621e.jpg

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/kamranwali10/hg/DSCF4617.jpg

for size comaparison

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/kamranwali10/hg/DSCF4626.jpg

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/kamranwali10/hg/DSCF4627.jpg

Gilani
29-04-2010, 11:48 PM
Very nice pics Kamran sahib. Thanks for sharing.

Kamranwali
29-04-2010, 11:54 PM
@Gilani Sahib, thanks a lot sir.

Sir abt the makarov. I have used a makraov extensively. More than a 1000 rounds fired. Belonged to my uncle. The ammo at that time was very very cheap. 50 rupees for a pack of 16. No issues, very rugged, very accurate(on behalf of the fixed barrel). But considering the price of ammo nowadays, I think the new Baikal is a bit pricy.

Aquarius
30-04-2010, 12:03 AM
Beautiful guns and nice pictures Kamran brother......... :)

Faheem
30-04-2010, 12:03 AM
Kamranwali brother very nice handguns Mashallah and specially smith is looking outstanding.....

AK47
30-04-2010, 12:13 AM
@Kamranwali...........What a babe, bro, thanks for sharing! Now plz share full details as well, specifications, price etc. Thanks, I may have overlooked something. :)

Ilyas
30-04-2010, 02:01 AM
Salamoona Kamran Rora! Having 12 shots capacity and very compact size, surely makes it a real nice gun for CC.
It's quite rare and a very precious gift to cherish for the years to come... take care of it :)
Regards!

Gilani
30-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Faisji sahib, thanks for the input Sir. I wanted to have input from someone who has fired extensively with a Makarov over the years :)

AK47 Sir, now, I am quite interested in Makarov too. So its now between PT145 and Baikal MP442 :). Both seem to have their own peculiar advantages. Makarov has steel frame which has always been my preference. Its mechanism is very simple and time tested for its reliability, however, difficult availability and potency of ammo is the downside. PT145 has the advantage of a potent caliber but somehow, I dont feel very comfortable with a polymer frame, that too with a .45 ACP round. Something like Kahr K9 or MK9 or T9 would be very interesting. The search and research goes on........... :)

As for ballistics, for FMJ cartridge, it goes like.................... (data taken from internet)

9x17 Short / .380 ACP / 9mm Browning Short / 9mm Kurz / 9mm Corto
Bullet weight.......... 6.16 grams (95 grains)
Muzzle velocity.......290 meter / sec (951 ft/sec)
Muzzle energy........260 Joules

9x18 Makarov
Bullet weight.......... 6.1 grams (95 grains)
Muzzle velocity.......310 meter / sec (1017 ft/sec)
Muzzle energy........302 Joules
Note; 9x18 Makarov is a different cartridge from 9x18 Ultra / 9x18 Police. Both are not interchangeable.

9x19 Luger / Parabellum
Bullet weight.......... 7.45 grams (115 grains)
Muzzle velocity.......352 meter / sec (1155 ft/sec)
Muzzle energy........461 Joules
Note: These are specs for normal commercial FMJ round. There is a huge variety of ammo available in 9x19 with much higher muzzle velocities and muzzle energies in a variety of bullet types.

.45 ACP / 11.43x25 mm
Bullet weight.......... 14.9 grams (230 grains)
Muzzle velocity.......255 meter / sec (837 ft/sec)
Muzzle energy........484 Joules
Note; Above specs are for commercial FMJ loads. Like 9x19, many hotter loads are also available in .45 ACP which have higher muzzle velocities and muzzle energies.

I wanted to get chamber pressure data also for the above cartridges but could not.

From above specs, one may conclude that 9x17 or .380 ACP does not seem to have enough stopping power that one would need for SD. 9x18 Makarov is just ok. 9x19 para and .45ACP, both are potent rounds with enough stopping power. Variety of hotter loads available in these cartridges makes them much more versatile and lethal. However, this must be remembered that ammo is fired from a gun and if the gun is not reliable and accurate, ammo wont make much of difference anyway. :)

Kamranwali
30-04-2010, 10:27 AM
@Aquarius, Faheem and Ilyas. Thanks a lot brothers.

Both these guns mean a lot to me. I bought the Beretta first, then got the Smithy. The Beretta is a 92FS with Trijicon Night Sights. It is my main gun, I have 4 mags with it. The Smithy is my CC weapon. Cannot find mags for it. But i'll keep on trying. :)

@AK47 Thanks a lot brother. Overlooked something???

Denovo87
30-04-2010, 11:01 AM
Nice guns kqmran bro, smith is one beautiful toy Mashallah would you please share the detailed specs (+price if its not an issue) and your experience regarding its reliability & accuracy.

Kamranwali
30-04-2010, 11:23 AM
@Denovo87. Thanks a lot bro.

Sir I've already given the specs in post 121, but here it goes

calibre: 9mm Luger
weight: 26.5ounces, ~750grams
Overall Length: 6 7/8"
Barrel Length: 3.5"
Magazine capacity: 12

Sir, my dad bought it for me around 8 years ago. Still dont know the price.
Have tried all kinds of ammo with it, no issues. Have shot POF 2z and winchester ranger ammo jes for checking, but i tend not to shoot the +p or +p+ ammo with it. I plan jes to shoot the standard pressure Luger rounds with it. Its pretty accurate too. I plan to do an accuracy test with it(as soon as i find the time). Will post the results as soon as I do.

Denovo87
30-04-2010, 11:32 AM
Thanks Kamran bro, pay my regards to your Dad and I will try my best to be the Dad like yours :)

Kamranwali
30-04-2010, 11:35 AM
@Denovo87. Hehehe. Will give your msg to my dad. :)

AK47
30-04-2010, 11:40 AM
Gilani Sir, thanks a lot for above info, as regards chamber pressure, whether right or wrong, but to the best of my remembrance, the 9X19 Luger heck gives more pressure within the chamber than the .45 cal! If I'm not very wrong, something like 21000 psi! :rolleyes:

Finally about the polymer body, well, had this thing in my mind too at the time of purchase, and Ilyas bro also wasn't satisfied about this factor when I had discussed with him before I went for it, but the "dual recoil spring mechanism" takes care of this quite well, heck you can't even think of "racking" this gun comfortably in a haste! :)

Furthermore, did an exhaustive "review check" throughout Google and all major U.S gun forums, nowhere did I come across any such defects/misadventures, in fact, I was surprised to see the quantum of positive reviews on a Taurus original! :)

Those types of cases (frame cracks/slide derailments,kabooms, etc) usually occur as you know with "home-loaded" ammo, and then they happen even to non-polymer models!

Still, best of luck with your choice, both guns fulfill your criteria well, yet the pound and punch of "452 joules", still in my opinion, is somewhat different from 300 joules or so, giving a much better "hydrostatic shock" capability upon anything hit, which requires somewhat 500 joules or more, still variable according to the distance shot from.

In any case, however, the "trajectory" of the ammo, flat or curved, I believe matters little at CQB situations, so never mind a few hundred feet less/per second in velocity, the "cavity" at the "rear" of any fleshy target, MAY GOD FORBID IT, speaks somewhat quite a dangerous language overall!

I'd say, however, with a .45 in hands already, I certainly wouldn't mind the Mak, anyway! They should be had BOTH, which one first, which one later, that's the choice! :lol:

Gilani
30-04-2010, 11:56 AM
Agreed AK Sahib. The search however continues. I am getting more inclined towards something like Kahr K9 which fulfills all my requirements. Alas it is not available in Pakistan and even if it is available, would probably be out of my reach. So I may wait for a trip to US. In the meanwhile, my contacts are in search of an appropriate CC gun for me :)

BTW, 461 J from 9x19 and 484 J from .45 ACP is almost the minimum that you get with these ammo. JHPs and other hotter loads go up to the range of 600-700 Joules :). Its a great stopping power no doubt. On the other hand, options are very very limited in 9x18 Makarov and .380 ACP :(

Skeeter60
30-04-2010, 12:49 PM
Chamber Pressure
9 x 19 Max pressure is 35700 CUP

Colt .45 Max pressure is 19900 CUP