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Survivalist
19-04-2010, 05:55 PM
Dear All, last weekend I visited POF Skeet Club (SGC) at Wah. After firing a couple of magazines on target from my 9mm Norinko CF98 I returned to skeet site. Meanwhile, a guy came with KRAL repeater (Made in Turkey), collected a box and started skeet shooting. He was very good at hitting disks but his gun failed to fire every second and subsequent cartridges. When he come back, I conducted a brief chit chat and inspected his weapon. His gun was borrowed and was no properly lublicated. After first fire, bolt was held 1 cm aback and did not cock properly. I highlighted this issue. The guy was son of president of club and director of WIL. Meanwhile, his father arrived and after introduction, revealed that POF is going to launch its 9mm pistol in August 2010. Khalid Pervez was of the openion that this pistol is better than Glock & Beretta, weights around 1 kg, steel, and shall be launched in three flavours including regular, silver slide and third one engraved in gold. Launch price will be nearly PKR 80K. I argued alot on design, price and models. I told him that any price above 50k will be unacceptable to most of buyers. Reliability will be time tested after launch and you can not say anything right now. Weight is on the heavier side. I also suggested that an adjustible site version for target, laser railing, hi cap magazine and concealable layout/design is what market is seeking for in addition to reliability, accuracy and warrenty. I feel that their R & D is based upon misleading input from dealers trying to get distributorship and this is one reason of high pricing. POF/WIL is already known for its high pricing as compared to other markets and this is one cause of other organizations established their own production facilities. On pricing issue, he passed unacceptabel remarks that if people are buying beretta and glock why they will not buy POF. I think their major market focus is on security forces especially police purchases who have no issues wth price as it is from our precious tax money. Thanks

Anthrax
19-04-2010, 06:01 PM
Why didn't you take pictures? :/

Oh and yes, 80k sounds ridiculous!

bazkhan35
19-04-2010, 06:18 PM
The price is too much but if it is like he said better then glock and bretta, people like me (prefer pakistani made things ) will buy.

Even the same quality will do for me.

Survivalist
19-04-2010, 06:21 PM
He did not had a sample there, we were at shooting club and was a coincidance I hit (met with) him.

Kakar
19-04-2010, 06:41 PM
With all due respect POF makes one of the best arms and ammunition, specially in the PB category. They are quite expensive and are in great demand too. If this pistol is also made of the same quality then I am sure 80k would be a fair price.

PsiFactor
19-04-2010, 07:15 PM
better than Glock & Beretta, weights around 1 kg,

but its too heavy for cc.

Survivalist
19-04-2010, 07:16 PM
Dear Sir, I would love to buy if POF make CZ under license at any price. But if they design theirself a pistol and incorporate borrowed (best practices or looks from other manufecturers) design for each element, a "choon choon ka muraba" might not be as good as we think. Designing a weapon from scratch is like an innovation or art and work of creativity and workmanship. The examples are Browning and my favourite SIG P210. What if the production cost is 25,000 (eg), selling to distributor is 50,000 and to end user is 85,000; will it justify the price whatever charm the pistol may have? For export 100k+ is Ok, but for domestic market you know there are Stoeger Cougar and Taurus are biggest competitors in reliability, accuracy and price. The interesting remarks that if one can buy under over or repeater from beretta for around 3-4 lakh why cannot POF 9mm in 80+ is ridiculous as many of us love to get one at that price but could not afford. Having a look at various topics in the forum and reading what ppls are looking for and at what price affirm this idea. I suggest further technical discussion on this topic keeping aside our passion and emotions.

Aquarius
19-04-2010, 07:27 PM
If POF 9mm pistol is as reliable as other products of POF, then I must say even 80K price is fine for this piece..... :)

BulletHog
19-04-2010, 08:07 PM
I agree with the 80 k price proposition considering the [claimed] qualities, but looking at the competition, I doubt that the product is going to even survive the market...we have stoeger cougar and cz-999 in the 50ish range and baikal viking in the 70ish...it would be a hard decision to take for a general buyer when it comes to choosing between this newborn and the proven baikal if he is willing to spend the quoted amount over the purchase...or one might simply take a cougar home and save the 18-20k or just spend them on something else [like ammo]...for me, unless I am struck by a heavy emotion of patriotism and loyalty, baikal would be the choice...

As someone mentioned that 100k might be a right price for exports, I would disagree...most of the glocks and other comparables sell in foreign [read US] markets in the neighborhood of 650 dollars...so what pof needs to do is a thorough market research and futuristic cosmetics [alongside of course, reliability and performance] to make market for its new offering...

Mangloo Ramzani
19-04-2010, 10:10 PM
At the price POF is demanding, I think only the Law Enforcement Agencies will go for it.

I dont think they did a proper market survey for it. I'm not saying that people will not buy it, they will. But mainly by the people (or collectors) who have already Glocks and Berrettas (or the like) in their armouries.

People like me (i.e., Salaried), who require 'a' pistol for SD/HD purpose will go for a cheaper option. I'm not saying that I'll compromise on accuracy or reliability. I'm just saying that if I have to but a gun for which I've been saving for some time there are quite a lot of options before I even consider POF 9MM (like CF98, Couger, CZ999 etc). These guns have been around for some time and have proven their worth.

I think POF should consider firstly competing with these before going (or claiming to go) for the big guns (Glock, Barretta).

Well this is what I think, maybe other senior members can shed more light on it.

Regards.

AK47
19-04-2010, 10:46 PM
1 Kg is perhaps a bit "over", yet the PT-99 and the local clones of it stand at something like 940 Grs, last time I had it weighed on a computerized scale, so 1 kg for a "solid" item is perhaps just about standard. I'd still say, these were general discussions between our member Survivalist and the P.O.F rep, so I'm not quite sure weight AND price will finally stand at such levels! At 80K, it needs to be one "startling" model, apart from being reliable and solid! Otherwise, there'll be less of "survival" for it, at least market-wise. :)

Ilyas
19-04-2010, 11:12 PM
I think POF should consider firstly competing with these before going (or claiming to go) for the big guns (Glock, Barretta).



..As someone mentioned that 100k might be a right price for exports, I would disagree...most of the glocks and other comparables sell in foreign [read US] markets in the neighborhood of 650 dollars...so what pof needs to do is a thorough market research and futuristic cosmetics [alongside of course, reliability and performance] to make market for its new offering...

+1 MR & BH.

Faisji
19-04-2010, 11:36 PM
80 k is way too high a price for a local brand even POF.
As far as comparison goes to berretta and Glock some of us will like to see external audits and performance demos before we can accept the assertion.

Survivalist
19-04-2010, 11:51 PM
1 Kg is perhaps a bit "over", yet the PT-99 and the local clones of it stand at something like 940 Grs, last time I had it weighed on a computerized scale, so 1 kg for a "solid" item is perhaps just about standard. I'd still say, these were general discussions between our member Survivalist and the P.O.F rep, so I'm not quite sure weight AND price will finally stand at such levels! At 80K, it needs to be one "startling" model, apart from being reliable and solid! Otherwise, there'll be less of "survival" for it, at least market-wise. :) I confirm that the director was not sure of weight although he is heading that department, as well as replyig to my query he first said 1.5 Kg and when I pointed out ''are u talking of an MP5' he corrected "something above 1 kg".

Survivalist
19-04-2010, 11:53 PM
I think POF should consider firstly competing with these before going (or claiming to go) for the big guns (Glock, Barretta).



..As someone mentioned that 100k might be a right price for exports, I would disagree...most of the glocks and other comparables sell in foreign [read US] markets in the neighborhood of 650 dollars...so what pof needs to do is a thorough market research and futuristic cosmetics [alongside of course, reliability and performance] to make market for its new offering...

+1 MR & BH.
I fully agree.

Aquarius
19-04-2010, 11:53 PM
80 k is way too high a price for a local brand even POF.
As far as comparison goes to berretta and Glock some of us will like to see external audits and performance demos before we can accept the assertion.

But Faisji brother if its that reliable as other POF weapons, then 70 to 80K will be a good buy.... POF stuff is very good in performance & if its the same case with this 9mm handgun, then I think its price will be 70 to 80K, provided its performance and reviews should be given by those members who will get it first....... :)

BloodBath
20-04-2010, 12:21 AM
Hello All !

Couldnt resist to write this. The other day was in POF conducting some proof firing of small arms. The pistol we are talking about came to my notice. I was horrified to see it. Here are the details :-

1. The weapon is an exact clone of Beretta 92 FS model. 100 percent same.

2. The weapon is made by POF machinists which are hired from Darra. Its so funny that POF hired a lot may craftsman from Darra to make this pistol. These people were already making the same clones in Darra.

3. The weapon comes with average machining, average finish and very unsatisfactory matellargy and metal treatments. The finish is also awful.

4. POF has never made a pistol. They have either imported P7 M13 / P7 M8 kits fron H&K and assembled them in Pakistan.
They have ordered some pistols from Darra and have sold them to some law enforcement agencies whom have rejected and returned them.

cant say more....


Regards

BloodBath

BloodBath
20-04-2010, 12:23 AM
@ Aquarius


About the POF weapons performance I have to disagree. the performance of their weapons in far below the minimum acceptable level to use some suger coated words.

Mangloo Ramzani
20-04-2010, 12:24 AM
@ BloodBath:

Good to see you back bro ... but these are some very strong comments you just gave !!!!

BloodBath
20-04-2010, 12:30 AM
@ Mangloo ramzani...

would you like to share how many times has a MP5 left you stranded and embarised.

would you like to carry it with you in war.
I will rather go with a sling and an assorted bunch of stones.
Its time for us as a nation to come out of the blanket of misunderstandings we have about ourselves and grade things as they are...
:)

Regards

BloodBath

AK47
20-04-2010, 12:34 AM
@Bloodbath bro............Nice to see some comments from you, but you MUST be speaking from very close personal experience, I hope, and believe! :)

Perhaps with a bit of the MP-5 in mind, about which, without wishing to cross the PB barrier here, I too have heard quite a few complaints about! :rolleyes:

Rotorcrafts
20-04-2010, 01:18 AM
@Bloodbath,
Sir i have to say that one must agree with you on this one. I have also heard some bad repo about the MP-5 but not about other weapons the POF makes. Also there are so many MP-5 fans out there that one cannot say anything bad about it. In my experience whenever i say something bad about the MP-5 infront of someone who is harping about its quality, they immediately go into denial and look at me as if saying "What the hell do you know about guns" :o , So i try to stay quiet when ever someone is admiring the MP-5.

Regarding the POF 9mm pistol..... It is truly a dissappointment to read the truth. Although POF has every sort of CNC machines at their disposal but still they produce something of this quality........ very sad indeed.

BTW ive heard a lot about you form Mangloo bhai :)

Apalo
20-04-2010, 01:43 AM
nice informative discussion

Usama
20-04-2010, 01:53 AM
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9416/pofv.jpg

Usama
20-04-2010, 01:55 AM
BloodBath you were right, its exact copy of 92FS

Aquarius
20-04-2010, 02:52 AM
Its really cool :cool: Usama brother ..... thanks for sharing... :)

khurramdool
20-04-2010, 06:01 AM
A.O.A
Well reading a lot regarding POF pistol I think we must be patient for the launch what r they offering in 80ks if we can get Beretta for 180/200k, Glock 235/265ks y dont we wait n see what beauty unleashes. POF is a name of quality accuracy and reliablity, and our engieers are very much capable of meeting international challenges and procude somewhat similler better than Beretta, Glock or sig what ever.
Here is an examle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmMa2dk7mrE

Denovo87
20-04-2010, 10:56 AM
BloodBath you were right, its exact copy of 92FS

It doesnt look like an exact copy from any side but patheticaly photoshopped 92FS picture, just look at the barrel end :mad:

Usama
20-04-2010, 01:08 PM
BloodBath you were right, its exact copy of 92FS

It doesnt look like an exact copy from any side but patheticaly photoshopped 92FS picture, just look at the barrel end :mad:

Well, i think its shape is like 92FS , grips would look much better if is used walnut .

Aside from the pic being photo-shopped I think majority of us will not even think of it at 80 K when
one can get easily beautifully finished PT 92/99 @ around 55k 60k :rolleyes:


Its really cool :cool: Usama brother ..... thanks for sharing... :)

Thanks for appreciation :cool:

BulletHog
20-04-2010, 01:10 PM
@bloodbath

sir jee kabhi tou let us live in the realm of ignorance :) waise is there any likelihood that the piece you came across might just be a prototype? a hand made one [like the DSA semi auto being discussed on another thread]? ... i ve always been under the impression that pof is totally amazing...but disappointed after reading your first hand opinion ... lets pray and hope for our nation's collective wisdom and betterment ... Ameen

KageFox
20-04-2010, 01:25 PM
If this is the piece POF will be churning out... that too for 80K... I'm starting to lose hope...


POF is a name of quality accuracy and reliablity, and our engieers are very much capable of meeting international challenges and procude somewhat similler better than Beretta, Glock or sig what ever.

Very patriotic, my dear sir, but a look at reality, if you please. POF copies. The guns it makes are not its own original designs, at least to my limited knowledge. No inventions, no new designs, no innovations, nothing! Simply, copies!

Someone stated something about PB MP5 PB. Are we referring to the POF copy, or the original German H&K, by which special ops and SWAT teams across the globe swear their very lives?

Until the engineers and management start thinking out of the box... Well, no hope till then...


Aside from the pic being photo-shopped I think majority of us will not even think of it at 80 K when
one can get easily beautifully finished PT 92/99 @ around 55k 60k.

+1. Even the military, for which POF primarily makes, can find better, cheaper options than the new "PK9"...

Usama
20-04-2010, 01:26 PM
Just send an e-mail to POF guys lets see what will be there reply.. :P

KageFox..NIce to see you back. :)

Survivalist
20-04-2010, 02:09 PM
Just send an e-mail to POF guys lets see what will be there reply.. :P

KageFox..NIce to see you back. :)

I think we need to raise our voices in this regard. I will try to visit POF next weekend with a printout of our whole discussion/topic and will also try to take picture/examin the POF 9mm there as well although not very hopeful in this regard. Lets hope for good.

Rotorcrafts
20-04-2010, 02:47 PM
Just send an e-mail to POF guys lets see what will be there reply.. :P

KageFox..NIce to see you back. :)

I think we need to raise our voices in this regard. I will try to visit POF next weekend with a printout of our whole discussion/topic and will also try to take picture/examin the POF 9mm there as well although not very hopeful in this regard. Lets hope for good.


That is just what is required.

Usama
20-04-2010, 03:55 PM
I hope that raising voices could make it work, but since POF manufactures for Military use,they do not
care of civilians in any way.This is what i think. :|

POF PK-9, was to be launched At Defence Exhibition which was held at Expo center last year and
dont know why it wasn't.

Basharat
20-04-2010, 04:04 PM
80k seems like to much for a 92FS clone specially when there are imported clones available and a similar/cheaper price

AK47
20-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Let me put forth a bewildering "dilemma", I myself find quite strange, inexplicable!

Since it has appeared from above posts by bro Usama and Bloodbath, respectively, it now stands clear that the 80K saga is about a CLONED 92fs, manufactured on average standard machinery, by the same Darra people who've manufactured these clones since long already, so there's virtually nothing new about anything in this news, apart from a P.O.F rail-side engraving!!

Now, the dilemma: Is this a "legalized" manufacturing under license from Beretta? If so, the P.O.F must have invested on the manufacturing rights as well, but why has Beretta then not stipulated any minimum standard of quality upon the P.O.F? :rolleyes:

Second, if this is not a "legalized" manufacturing process, how can the P.O.F then find it morally, ethically right to copy an already existing model by hiring the same people from over there in Darra whom we normally blame for spreading around of illegal weapons into the country, and that different quarters of our political elite so eagerly want to strike down on? :rolleyes:

Finally, as it has appeared now, it's a "traditional" darra pistol, just with a P.O.F stamp to endorse a price hike of some 55K, in my opinion, frankly! :mad:

The P.O.F is massive by itself and has come up with quite a vast variety of indigeneously produced items in the past, really a pity to see they can't come up with a simple handgun, there really wasn't any market vacuum on cloned no good non-starters! :(

EF KAY
20-04-2010, 04:51 PM
It is a good initiative by POF in a sense of manufecturing more types of weapon. I dont think POF will compromise on quality because these weapons are suppose to be used by military.They might fail to made it good in first attempt (like Adam Revo) but there is definitely a hope for improvement.....

I wish they made such thing on which people can rely & trust....
Good luck POF..

(Guys it would be better not to copy please design something new.. our PG experts can help you if you are listening :P )

EF KAY
20-04-2010, 04:59 PM
What about the FORGING & METALLURGY thing..??


2. The weapon is made by POF machinists which are hired from Darra. Its so funny that POF hired a lot may craftsman from Darra to make this pistol. These people were already making the same clones in Darra.



Anybody have any idea about the machinery they are using? because if they have really good paltform than our Darra mechanics can do better than any normal machanic ......

9mm Luger
20-04-2010, 05:16 PM
It is a good initiative by POF in a sense of manufecturing more types of weapon. I dont think POF will compromise on quality because these weapons are suppose to be used by militants.They might fail to made it good in first attempt (like Adam Revo) but there is definitely a hope for improvement.....

I wish they made such thing on which people can rely & trust....
Good luck POF..

(Guys it would be better not to copy please design something new.. our PG experts can help you if you are listening :P )


MILITANTS!!! :P :P :P i guess you meant military!!

Kakar
20-04-2010, 05:17 PM
It is a good initiative by POF in a sense of manufecturing more types of weapon. I dont think POF will compromise on quality because these weapons are suppose to be used by militants.They might fail to made it good in first attempt (like Adam Revo) but there is definitely a hope for improvement.....

I wish they made such thing on which people can rely & trust....
Good luck POF..

(Guys it would be better not to copy please design something new.. our PG experts can help you if you are listening :P )

:D :D

EF KAY
20-04-2010, 05:19 PM
Oops sorry... corrected :)

EF KAY
20-04-2010, 05:21 PM
wesey i wasnt 100% wrong :P

Faisji
20-04-2010, 06:06 PM
Based on what i see i will go for a PT92/99 everytime.This piece offered by POF is nothing to write home about.They should really consider 30-40 k price range if they want a market share.

khurramdool
21-04-2010, 06:00 AM
@BloodBath
My dear u r right but my point was "Amos Golan" the designer of "ShortCorner" was boasting about its design and technological aspects :/ POF adopted same idea and produced somewhat similler or better than the original. I dont think so its copy ;).
For example see vintage cars and new ferrari enzo, spiderf430, with same 4 wheels round steering but the advancment of technology and areodynamics .

BloodBath
21-04-2010, 10:16 AM
@ Khurramdool

Sir you are right too. I fully agree that indiginous effort should be made..this saves a lot of precious foreign exchange and also lets in a lot of vitally needed confidence..
I would apologise for anything that came in the discussion and should have been of any discomfort.
POF has a lot of potential and the necessary tools to execute it. They must start thinking and make somthing which they will be known with. I certainly pray and hope that we shall achieve that one day. I was thinking to start a project of that sort but am so stuck in the area of my speciality that at this point in time I cant.

Regards

BloodBath

Salahuddin Ayubi
21-04-2010, 10:21 AM
@ Bloodbath,
This is where the "VISION" part comes it, which unfortunately most of us (including our leadership - political and military) lack. Without a clearly laid down vision, we're like a ship without a captain. We waste resources and opportunities for achieving synergy by building parallel setups with neither of the setup achieving anything worthwhile.

wasifali89
21-04-2010, 10:57 AM
the design would matter

BulletHog
21-04-2010, 12:39 PM
@ Bloodbath,
This is where the "VISION" part comes it, which unfortunately most of us (including our leadership - political and military) lack. Without a clearly laid down vision, we're like a ship without a captain. We waste resources and opportunities for achieving synergy by building parallel setups with neither of the setup achieving anything worthwhile.

the base to all the desolation imho is corruption...i believe if sig or glock or beretta offers a good enough commission to our decision makers today, our forces would be playing with the state of the art from tomorrow...

I think vision is a product of honesty...if we are honest with our cause, we will develop a vision and also find a way to achieve it just like we did in may 1998. we have all the capabilities and could find the necessary knowledge. In these days, cold forging of metals and advance polymers are no secrets, internet is full of information on all these subjects. And i believe we could save the few million dollars by just cutting on the number of foreign visits our leadership is so fond of. but the question is "billi k galay main ghanti kon bandhay"

BulletHog
21-04-2010, 12:53 PM
@BloodBath
My dear u r right but my point was "Amos Golan" the designer of "ShortCorner" was boasting about its design and technological aspects :/ POF adopted same idea and produced somewhat similler or better than the original. I dont think so its copy ;).
For example see vintage cars and new ferrari enzo, spiderf430, with same 4 wheels round steering but the advancment of technology and areodynamics .

I ve watched the Amos Golan interviews and videos...there wasnt enough detail to make a clone [or say an indigenous product] on the basis of that...

@bloodbath

sir please dont designate the pof eye as a 100% clone of the cornershot...theirs could turn 60 degrees only while ours can do 75 degree :D we are better than them ;):D call it a 90% clone lolx

hawkseye
21-04-2010, 02:17 PM
I think we need to raise our voices in this regard. I will try to visit POF next weekend with a printout of our whole discussion/topic and will also try to take picture/examin the POF 9mm there as well although not very hopeful in this regard. Lets hope for good.

That will be really great. If we get the pics at least we will know what the thing looks like then it would be more fun complaining.

But i really think we should wait n see what they offer and comment only when we have the product in front of us.

Mangloo Ramzani
21-04-2010, 02:40 PM
@BloodBath
My dear u r right but my point was "Amos Golan" the designer of "ShortCorner" was boasting about its design and technological aspects :/ POF adopted same idea and produced somewhat similler or better than the original. I dont think so its copy ;).
For example see vintage cars and new ferrari enzo, spiderf430, with same 4 wheels round steering but the advancment of technology and areodynamics .
Just on the lighter side and to cool things a bit .... Khurram bro its Enzo Ferrari not the other way around ;)

khurramdool
21-04-2010, 02:41 PM
I know 1 thing my dears we must support all our talented P.O.F engeerers and designers, back them and encourage them by our beautiful words, but I am not against healthy criticism.. :)

khurramdool
21-04-2010, 02:44 PM
@BloodBath
My dear u r right but my point was "Amos Golan" the designer of "ShortCorner" was boasting about its design and technological aspects :/ POF adopted same idea and produced somewhat similler or better than the original. I dont think so its copy ;).
For example see vintage cars and new ferrari enzo, spiderf430, with same 4 wheels round steering but the advancment of technology and areodynamics .
Just on the lighter side and to cool things a bit .... Khurram bro its Enzo Ferrari not the other way around ;)
My dear Mangloo Ramzani :D here we r not arguing just having fun, we r cool like cucumber :lol: .

Salahuddin Ayubi
21-04-2010, 03:35 PM
I think vision is a product of honesty...if we are honest with our cause, we will develop a vision and also find a way to achieve it

I beg to differ here. Vision is not a product of honesty. Even a dishonest and corrupt person can have a clear vision and chalk out a well-defined and laid-out plan to achieve dishonest ambitions/goals. Even the ideology, on which the vision is based, could be totally screwed up and even then, if the vision itself is clear and the determined efforts are made, the vision can still be achieved, no matter how evil or wrong the results are.

So one doesn't necessarily need to be 'honest' or 'Muslim' to have a 'clear' vision.

Visioning is a different process altogether. But, with the ingredients of 'correctness' and 'loftiness' mixed with the right ideological base, you can not only achieve the desired result here, but also reap the benefits attached to it in the hereafter.

hawkseye
21-04-2010, 05:57 PM
I think vision is a product of honesty...if we are honest with our cause, we will develop a vision and also find a way to achieve it

I beg to differ here. Vision is not a product of honesty. Even a dishonest and corrupt person can have a clear vision and chalk out a well-defined and laid-out plan to achieve dishonest ambitions/goals. Even the ideology, on which the vision is based, could be totally screwed up and even then, if the vision itself is clear and the determined efforts are made, the vision can still be achieved, no matter how evil or wrong the results are.

So one doesn't necessarily need to be 'honest' or 'Muslim' to have a 'clear' vision.

Visioning is a different process altogether. But, with the ingredients of 'correctness' and 'loftiness' mixed with the right ideological base, you can not only achieve the desired result here, but also reap the benefits attached to it in the hereafter.


LOL very well said and 100% true SA sb.

Usama
30-04-2010, 07:07 PM
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8520/212yx.jpg

According to some sources this picture taken was earlier this week..
Had a chance to see Golden ones as-well
and the rest later..

Survivalist
30-04-2010, 07:15 PM
and the rest later..

Thanks dear, this story is going to conclusion, we are anxiously waiting for the rest...

Survivalist
30-04-2010, 07:43 PM
I have done some experiments with photo and result i obvious.

Is it demonstration of the pistol in debate?
http://s1.postimage.org/H8s5r.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxH8s5r)

AK47
01-05-2010, 02:32 AM
@GG.............Bro, you kiddin'? :) Plz, whether pictures or not, let's have some details, if you have. :)

GatlinGun
01-05-2010, 03:03 AM
@GG.............Bro, you kiddin'? :) Plz, whether pictures or not, let's have some details, if you have. :)

I am almost always kidding...

Salahuddin Ayubi
02-05-2010, 12:02 PM
@GG.............Bro, you kiddin'? :) Plz, whether pictures or not, let's have some details, if you have. :)

I am almost always kidding...

Was this one also the 'always' one or an 'exception' to the almost always thing.

TT-33
04-05-2010, 10:45 AM
80 K is higher price but if it would be better than Glock & Barreta then definitely we will buy after all we r Pakistani & we should prefer to purchase own production and it will be our humble request to POF authorities plzzzzzzzzzz do reconsider ur price bcz it will not b easy for every one to purchase local gun with this price.

Survivalist
04-05-2010, 10:26 PM
80 K is higher price but if it would be better than Glock & Barreta then definitely we will buy after all we r Pakistani & we should prefer to purchase own production and it will be our humble request to POF authorities plzzzzzzzzzz do reconsider ur price bcz it will not b easy for every one to purchase local gun with this price.
+1 I Agree with you.

KageFox
04-05-2010, 10:57 PM
80K for a POF product that would be better than Glock and/or Beretta (of which it is a clone)...? Sounds like something out of a Utopian world...

wasifali89
05-05-2010, 01:13 AM
hmmmm

now lets see when it comes out and when ppl start getting it on thier liscences

wasi
08-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Dear members all your resevation are well in place. but would like to clarify few things here. POF was previously doing licence manufaturing only. resultantly they would produce things already present in international market. the quality had never been an issue with weapons. it has been with ammo. MP5 and its other version had no technical issues only the 9mm ammo has problems. the quality of brass and propellent had problems. They have improved that alot. they have even changed the shape of 9mm ammo. A need was felt to introduce an R&D branch in POF. which theydid and these guys have done remarkble job. they produced the (pof eye) a corner shot system. a snipper rifle MSG 90. As far as pistol are concern they have produced many design with the help of Darra gunsmith. the latest one is of course copy of Breta 92. But much refined and closer to Breta in all respect. This was done after extensivly working on metalurgy.

KageFox
08-05-2010, 03:59 PM
Dear members all your resevation are well in place. but would like to clarify few things here. POF was previously doing licence manufaturing only. resultantly they would produce things already present in international market. the quality had never been an issue with weapons. it has been with ammo. MP5 and its other version had no technical issues only the 9mm ammo has problems. the quality of brass and propellent had problems. They have improved that alot. they have even changed the shape of 9mm ammo. A need was felt to introduce an R&D branch in POF. which theydid and these guys have done remarkble job. they produced the (pof eye) a corner shot system. a snipper rifle MSG 90. As far as pistol are concern they have produced many design with the help of Darra gunsmith. the latest one is of course copy of Breta 92. But much refined and closer to Breta in all respect. This was done after extensivly working on metalurgy.

Again, the MSG-90 is another original HK product... a cheaper alternative to their premier PSG-1. Apparently, the copying skills of POF are again evident... nothing original in their "production" of the MSG-90

auon
09-05-2010, 01:02 AM
@ BloodBath.
i guess i cant discuss here about automatic weapons but there is no doubt about POF weapon's reliability and efficiency, i have an ak 47 (POF) have shot hundreds of rounds and it never stopped or caused any problem for me,
u may be right but at least my experience with POF is quite good.
i disagree what u say but i respect ur right to say it:d

HafizAhmed
09-05-2010, 02:23 AM
@aoun Ak 47 from POF , i gotta hear about that , Well if the pistol is made by POF it should be a tiny but better than the stuff made in peshawer based factories , the price is ridiculously high , if it was priced something around 25 to 30 k some of us might have decided to try it out , but 80 thousand:o , If i had that kind of dosh lying around i would go get me somehting bigg from the black market , if anyone gets his hands on this let us know everything about it ,

GatlinGun
09-05-2010, 04:17 AM
@ BloodBath.
i guess i cant discuss here about automatic weapons but there is no doubt about POF weapon's reliability and efficiency, i have an ak 47 (POF) have shot hundreds of rounds and it never stopped or caused any problem for me,
u may be right but at least my experience with POF is quite good.
i disagree what u say but i respect ur right to say it:d

POF is making SMG AK, now that is news. Yaar itni gup naa maro kay hazam hee naa ho...

auon
09-05-2010, 05:29 AM
yar i have relatives in army i dont want to disclose this but i guess now i'll have to. i got this gun from army depot way back in 1996. anything else :d i'll try to post pics of it as soon as possible.

Faisji
09-05-2010, 09:53 AM
POF is making SMG AK, now that is news. Yaar itni gup naa maro kay hazam hee naa ho...

Pakistan(POF) has been making copies of AK 47 since mid 90's atleast.

GatlinGun
09-05-2010, 12:24 PM
The AK's that you see in use with the Army come from Norinco. POF does not make AKs. They maybe assembling a kit.
I was in POF last week, and I have seen all the manufacturing lines.

Kindly verify the source of your information, and relatives in the Army does not count.

AK47
09-05-2010, 01:06 PM
The AK's that you see in use with the Army come from Norinco. POF does not make AKs. They maybe assembling a kit.
I was in POF last week, and I have seen all the manufacturing lines.

Kindly verify the source of your information, and relatives in the Army does not count.

No, to the best of my knowledge, I agree with GG, they have not been making AK's so far, were supposed to do so lately, I think the model was named something with the figure "10" or so, to the best of my remembrance! :)

In any case, there's at least one AK within P.O.F Wah, and most of you have already been befriended with that one! ;)

@GG...........Bro, not fair, you should have let me know of your visit there! Let's hear what you observed of interesting things inside P.O.F. :)

Topic crossing the allowed segment by now, let's return to the 9mm! ;)

wasi
09-05-2010, 02:09 PM
my knowledge is authentic. POF used to produce licence copy with transfer of technology but the new entries as MSG and 5.56mm derivates of G 3 are copied and not license production. similarly different versions of MP5 are copy productions. MSG 9 was not accepted in the army because of technicality that is it is a delay blow back which means that the rifle jumps while the bullet is still in muzzle. accuracy is therefore an issue. quite accurate upto 600 m but so is the scoped G3. so why to go for it. Army is already using Stey SSG 69 and dragunov. POF is now working on Draganov. however MSG is ideal for police and other law enforcing agency.
As far as the quality of 9mm para round is concerned it is doubtful until past that is for sure. But strangely this is prominent in MP5 only that to in burst mode. and again no misfire only double feeding. POF is mum about the issue since both are there products. Army prefer to use them as crew served weapon that to in single fire. i have used 9mm ammo in variey of pistols, they pose no problem in breta 92, glock , various models of taurus and noinco. However it is problematic American origin weapons.

wasi
09-05-2010, 02:17 PM
As far as AK 47 is concerned POF has been producing strange and different weapons over the history. finding no market would result in abunduning of such weapon. Chinese small arm industries have grown considerably and they are quite cheap especially for our armed forces. POF is on the other hand expensive.Army prefers them if there are no quality issue. that is why Army has procured NP22. Army does not have POF made Ak 47. they have chinese type 56. An excellent weapon.

wasi
09-05-2010, 02:36 PM
showing some image you can see ak47 in one pic
http://s2.postimage.org/ckdE0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsckdE0)

wasi
09-05-2010, 02:38 PM
http://s1.postimage.org/h1q9r.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxh1q9r)

wasi
09-05-2010, 02:40 PM
http://s3.postimage.org/ItgCr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqItgCr)

wasi
10-05-2010, 12:30 AM
http://s2.postimage.org/eg_z0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tseg_z0)

wasi
10-05-2010, 12:32 AM
gentlemen what are your remarks about the last pic. interesting is,t it. this has been taken from offical web site of POF.

Survivalist
10-05-2010, 12:41 AM
gentlemen what are your remarks about the last pic. interesting is,t it. this has been taken from offical web site of POF.
This dirty looking thing is by no means a POF.

KageFox
10-05-2010, 12:48 AM
If that is a POF, I'm ashamed.... No need to say anymore...

Looks like someone left a TT in the sun for a while too long...

ARlover
10-05-2010, 12:49 AM
http://s2.postimage.org/eg_z0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tseg_z0)


availbility and price info about this hand gun

auon
10-05-2010, 07:41 AM
so u mean pak army is using Chinese ak 47? or assembling it here after importing parts frm china? if it is so my apologies for lack of knowledge but i thought pof made it for army:d

Faisji
10-05-2010, 09:55 AM
The mobile phone picture from defence show in turkey(2009) defence show displaying a ak47 not a norinco 56
http://s1.postimage.org/jrnoJ.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxjrnoJ)




BTW is this another picture of the POF 9mm from same show??


http://s2.postimage.org/f3kv0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Tsf3kv0)

Faisji
10-05-2010, 10:08 AM
There was a minor diplomatic incident last month at the IDEF ‘09 defense expo when the Russian delegation discovered that Pakistan Ordnance Factories had AK-47 clones on display. When confronted the Pakistan stated owned defense manufacture refused to remove the display.

Anatoly Aksenov, a senior advisor to the director general of Rosoboronexport (Russia’s sole export intermediary), said in a press release “Russia will ask IDEF-2009’s administration to impose sanctions on Pakistan’s delegation if the counterfeit weapon is not removed from the booth by tomorrow … is piracy and we will struggle against it.”. The Turkish Ministry of Defense, who organized the expo, acted swiftly and the following day the rifles were removed from display.

According to Mr. Aksenov Turkey is looking to purchase Russian short and medium range anti-aircraft systems, which no doubt gave the Russians much leverage with the Turkish Ministry officials.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tag/ak-47/page/4/

Mangloo Ramzani
10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
If that is a POF, I'm ashamed.... No need to say anymore...

Looks like someone left a TT in the sun for a while too long...

+1
I was thinking the exact same thing! :D

@ Faisji:

Sir I think the POF guys have been spending too much time with Darra gunsmiths, and it is time that they come to know that the rule of the jungle does not apply everywhere in the world!

In exibitions like these they should know that they are representing Pakistan (not how good the Darra walas are!) it once again speaks of their unprofessionalism. :mad:

GatlinGun
10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
There was a minor diplomatic incident last month at the IDEF ‘09 defense expo when the Russian delegation discovered that Pakistan Ordnance Factories had AK-47 clones on display. When confronted the Pakistan stated owned defense manufacture refused to remove the display.

Anatoly Aksenov, a senior advisor to the director general of Rosoboronexport (Russia’s sole export intermediary), said in a press release “Russia will ask IDEF-2009’s administration to impose sanctions on Pakistan’s delegation if the counterfeit weapon is not removed from the booth by tomorrow … is piracy and we will struggle against it.”. The Turkish Ministry of Defense, who organized the expo, acted swiftly and the following day the rifles were removed from display.

According to Mr. Aksenov Turkey is looking to purchase Russian short and medium range anti-aircraft systems, which no doubt gave the Russians much leverage with the Turkish Ministry officials.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/tag/ak-47/page/4/

Interesting segment and a true one. Nothing happened since POF doesn't make a AK, and was only reselling the Chinese Norinco weapon on its stall.

All the pictures that you show are an effort for POF to pick an order from somwhere, then buy components all over the tribal north under their QC. They do not have a production line, and CANNOT compete with the Norinco price.

Back to 9MM, it is still a POS, and I would not pay 80K for it, maybe 18...

GatlinGun
10-05-2010, 11:16 AM
http://s1.postimage.org/h1q9r.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxh1q9r)

That is a Norinco produced AK clone, stamped hardware..

GatlinGun
10-05-2010, 11:18 AM
The AK's that you see in use with the Army come from Norinco. POF does not make AKs. They maybe assembling a kit.
I was in POF last week, and I have seen all the manufacturing lines.

Kindly verify the source of your information, and relatives in the Army does not count.

No, to the best of my knowledge, I agree with GG, they have not been making AK's so far, were supposed to do so lately, I think the model was named something with the figure "10" or so, to the best of my remembrance! :)

In any case, there's at least one AK within P.O.F Wah, and most of you have already been befriended with that one! ;)

@GG...........Bro, not fair, you should have let me know of your visit there! Let's hear what you observed of interesting things inside P.O.F. :)

Topic crossing the allowed segment by now, let's return to the 9mm! ;)

AK I don't go there in private capacity...I could take you along on one of the trips but usually with me as a tour guide, you will not be happy...lol...

Mangloo Ramzani
10-05-2010, 11:19 AM
Interesting segment and a true one. Nothing happened since POF doesn't make a AK, and was only reselling the Chinese Norinco weapon on its stall.

All the pictures that you show are an effort for POF to pick an order from somwhere, then buy components all over the tribal north under their QC. They do not have a production line, and CANNOT compete with the Norinco price.

Back to 9MM, it is still a POS, and I would not pay 80K for it, maybe 18...

I was writing my reply when this came up!!!

Again I would ask; why were they selling a Chinese weapon on their stall, and where were the Chinese when this was happening ??? :D

Survivalist
10-05-2010, 11:25 AM
I would suggest that voice should be raised in decision making circles. Although I started this debate, inspite of discussing these facts on open forum, some or any of our worthy and resourceful member/s should contact POF/MoD and communicate our reservations. Afterall this is our tax money that finally go waste.

Salahuddin Ayubi
10-05-2010, 11:35 AM
IMHO, we should also give due consideration to the fact that POF is a state owned ordnance factory and not a commercial weapon and ammo manufacturer. It's purpose is to meet the weapon and ordnance requirements of Armed Forces of Pakistan which it is doing with fair degree of efficiency since the last six decades. It produces what Armed Forces want it to produce and not something which is selling well in the market. It has a long time affiliation with H&K only because a long time back, Army decided to adopt weapons manufactured by H&K. Should Army decide to change its weapons, POF will also accordingly develop the expertise to develop those weapons, regardless of their commercial value / status.

As for the low efficiency and foresight as an organisation, this ill is peculiar to most state owned organizations; POF being no exception is certainly not the most efficient organization around. Off course there are many areas where POF can and should improve, most important being modernising itself as per the requirements of time. However, with all said and done, it's not that kind of a junk and crap organization as it has been portrayed to be, IMHO. Similarly, an open internet forum may not be an appropriate forum to discuss inside working flaws of POF, which some of the members seem to know, perhaps in their official capacities. And if some members from forces have complains about the quality of POF products being supplied to their outfits, this certainly is not the forum to raise this issue.


I 100% agree with what you've written (in bold) above.

Just that when one pays a tax amount each month (as a tax-paying patriotic citizen) which can get him a CZ999 every month, it really hurts to see our money being spent / used ineffectively or unwisely.

wasi
10-05-2010, 11:49 AM
The R&D department is doing a fine job. Actually all these weapon except for POF eye ,MSG, derivates of HK. are manufactured with the help of Darra gunsmiths. The input of POF is that they do it on CNC machines and works on metallurgy. Resultantly with the collaboration of darra gunsmiths and expertise of POF they can produce virtually anything of world class. The accident that occurred in turkey was that they produced an exact copy of Russian AK 47. After the incident they will bring a little bit change in the design. This they are very much capable. And they would do it with the rest of weapons as well to cater for the issue of piracy.

Survivalist
10-05-2010, 11:50 AM
I would suggest MODS to remove/filter sensetive feedback from knowledgeable friends.

Salahuddin Ayubi
10-05-2010, 02:19 PM
@ Survivalist,

Noted and under deliberation.

@ AK47,

He's now on the watchlist and if he continues posting his nonsensical one-liners, he'll be sent an email warning and then maybe banned. Btw, help us by using the report button. It's more effective ;)

AK47
10-05-2010, 03:19 PM
@ Survivalist,

Noted and under deliberation.

@ AK47,

He's now on the watchlist and if he continues posting his nonsensical one-liners, he'll be sent an email warning and then maybe banned. Btw, help us by using the report button. It's more effective ;)

@SA...?????

I hope you are/are not referring to my son who finally has found out how to "SUBMIT" a post! :lol:

While lunching and leaving my PC on, I found out the 6 years old had managed submitting 2 posts before I had completed my lunch, and right at the moment I took control over my PC again to delete the one-liners, IESCO could-shouldered me, lights out! :lol:

Anyhow, if that was the incidence above, I'll for sure take the chap in control, but he just can't somehow keep his eyes off PG while I'm on-line!

He managed posting something like: "My gun's name is 45 ACP"! :lol: Thanks for taking the action timely! :lol:

Salahuddin Ayubi
10-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Oh yaar, it is 'Engineer' I was talking about. He wrote a silly one-liner and then it was followed by two posts from your ID like,

Me:)::gun::.45

And I thought you were pulling Engineer's leg..... hence my post above.

Hope this clears it. :)

AK47
10-05-2010, 03:25 PM
@SA.............Ha ha ha, boy this is fun indeed, look how the "minnie" got you "onto" Engineer! :lol: :lol: :lol:

In any case, I forward my humble apologies to both bros, the chap need's a separate ID soon, "Reshma Jawaan ho gai ha"! :lol:

Salahuddin Ayubi
10-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Let's have a new ID for him 'AK47Compact' (just a suggestion) and open him up a thread in our Members' Introduction Section. His uncles will give him a nice, simple but warm welcome there.

Same thing I suggest for Zain..... Gilani Sb's son.

AK47
10-05-2010, 03:37 PM
Let's have a new ID for him 'AK47Compact' (just a suggestion) and open him up a thread in our Members' Introduction Section. His uncles will give him a nice, simple but warm welcome there.

Same thing I suggest for Zain..... Gilani Sb's son.

Lolz SA on the "Compact" suggestion and thanks a lot, these guyz are the future "flag- carriers" of PG, I even tried to have him identified as AK-74, but an email address was necessary, couldn't find the time to subscribe to one! Will do so soon, also gift him a B.B/soft airgun soon, he's craving for it! :lol:

Survivalist
10-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Let's have a new ID for him 'AK47Compact' (just a suggestion) and open him up a thread in our Members' Introduction Section. His uncles will give him a nice, simple but warm welcome there.

Same thing I suggest for Zain..... Gilani Sb's son.

Lolz SA on the "Compact" suggestion and thanks a lot, these guyz are the future "flag- carriers" of PG, I even tried to have him identified as AK-74, but an email address was necessary, couldn't find the time to subscribe to one! Will do so soon, also gift him a B.B/soft airgun soon, he's craving for it! :lol:

I suggest "AK 47 Pistol" as there are such variants exist. But it would be better to have a KIDS CORNER as well. Many western serious sites have such kids corner even NSA or CIA site had one, lately I saw. They can discuss water pistols, air guns, replicas, CO2s => all kind of Airsoft. I remember I started Airgun hunting when I was 9 year old and had a BSA Scorpion pistol.


http://s4.postimage.org/zdFJS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVzdFJS)
"WEB PHOTO"

coolbox18
10-05-2010, 05:04 PM
Let's have a new ID for him 'AK47Compact' (just a suggestion) and open him up a thread in our Members' Introduction Section. His uncles will give him a nice, simple but warm welcome there.

Same thing I suggest for Zain..... Gilani Sb's son.

can't help laughing in admiration.

GatlinGun
10-05-2010, 07:00 PM
Let's have a new ID for him 'AK47Compact' (just a suggestion) and open him up a thread in our Members' Introduction Section. His uncles will give him a nice, simple but warm welcome there.

Same thing I suggest for Zain..... Gilani Sb's son.

How about a AK74?

GatlinGun
10-05-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Survivalist
10-05-2010, 08:05 PM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Sir ji, with due respect weshould understand that like a knife can be used for cutting throught as well as apple, these posts can also be used eitherway, so long we are discussing but no actual effort could be performed, so in these media days such discussion can be misused by our enemies as well for propaganda. Proper way to raise our voices is to professionally document these concerns and send to COAS, PM etc. If such a doc is prepared with mutual effort, I take the responsibility that it will reach the decision makers and to those who really care for our defense and freedom.

HafizAhmed
11-05-2010, 02:49 AM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Sir ji, with due respect weshould understand that like a knife can be used for cutting throught as well as apple, these posts can also be used eitherway, so long we are discussing but no actual effort could be performed, so in these media days such discussion can be misused by our enemies as well for propaganda. Proper way to raise our voices is to professionally document these concerns and send to COAS, PM etc. If such a doc is prepared with mutual effort, I take the responsibility that it will reach the decision makers and to those who really care for our defense and freedom.

The survivalist does have a point there we r just P**ing in the wind when we talk about this stuff , we can sit here and cry about how theyr not making proper stuff and this and that and in the end it dosnt count for nothing because stuff like this just fall on deaf ears , this is how all government organizations are , ......

Gilani
11-05-2010, 06:53 AM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Well if that be the logic than there may be many other departments and organisations that need to be taken to task publically and there may be many more individuals that deserve to be rebuked. Are we going to do all that? Is this the purpose of this site? One may list many other places where tax payer's money is being waisted more than this? Are we than going to carryout the online live trial of all those departments / persons because we see the tax payers money being wasted?
Instead of challenging each other's patriotism, I would strongly suggest we restrict ourselves to discussion about guns...............

Survivalist
11-05-2010, 08:09 AM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Well if that be the logic than there may be many other departments and organisations that need to be taken to task publically and there may be many more individuals that deserve to be rebuked. Are we going to do all that? Is this the purpose of this site? One may list many other places where tax payer's money is being waisted more than this? Are we than going to carryout the online live trial of all those departments / persons because we see the tax payers money being wasted?
Instead of challenging each other's patriotism, I would strongly suggest we restrict ourselves to discussion about guns...............

+1

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 11:01 AM
I don't think the posts should be edited. I would like the PoS, I mean POF should read some of the comments here. Why would you want to waste our effort?

I would also want MoDP to read, but what can they really do?

In an organization where all the bosses come in for a 2 year posting, this is bound to happen. Like I said earlier, please be glad that the crap we produce is slightly better than other people's crap that would be pointed at us.

No to Censorship, if you are really patriotic...

Well if that be the logic than there may be many other departments and organisations that need to be taken to task publically and there may be many more individuals that deserve to be rebuked. Are we going to do all that? Is this the purpose of this site? One may list many other places where tax payer's money is being waisted more than this? Are we than going to carryout the online live trial of all those departments / persons because we see the tax payers money being wasted?
Instead of challenging each other's patriotism, I would strongly suggest we restrict ourselves to discussion about guns...............

+1

I agree with you, and regret that these discussions become political.

Coming back to the "gun discussion," I warn everyone against it for a 80,000 buy, and recommend anything POF will come up with, clone or not, at 18,000 only.

best wishes to the all gunners, GG

AK-86
11-05-2010, 11:51 AM
one question from my side too, the pk9 is of 2tone so it can not be used by military because these guys use full black weapons as the are stealthy, so why a 2tone?

Gilani
11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
GG, thanks for your understanding brother :)

AK-86 sahib, I think a solid reason about this and many other aspects being discussed can only be given when the gun reaches the market or is supplied to some department. If it has already been done than it's not to my knowledge :)

Survivalist
11-05-2010, 06:37 PM
one question from my side too, the pk9 is of 2tone so it can not be used by military because these guys use full black weapons as the are stealthy, so why a 2tone?

It is for civilian markets.

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 08:49 PM
one question from my side too, the pk9 is of 2tone so it can not be used by military because these guys use full black weapons as the are stealthy, so why a 2tone?

Just copying a trend of what may appeal to market trends, so two tone, all blued, and all chrome...

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 08:54 PM
GG, thanks for your understanding brother :)

AK-86 sahib, I think a solid reason about this and many other aspects being discussed can only be given when the gun reaches the market or is supplied to some department. If it has already been done than it's not to my knowledge :)

Yar I have already fired it. It's a Duretta with a thong on...I cannot go give a complete review since they are about to launch in the current DG's regime...

It is not bad, but it is not 80,000 worth. What can you get in and under 80,000?

A CF-98 (Maybe three)
All taurus models
Baikal beauties
Zastava CZ 1000 minus 01
Akdal Bhoot
Maybe many other sexy Pistolas we don't know about in Kurrachee...The point is, why are you spending something on something, when you can get something better for something less?

No, I am not drunk...

best wishes,

GG

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 08:56 PM
GG, thanks for your understanding brother :)

AK-86 sahib, I think a solid reason about this and many other aspects being discussed can only be given when the gun reaches the market or is supplied to some department. If it has already been done than it's not to my knowledge :)

Dont embarrass me sir, everyone's opinion here is valuable and considered. This is a forum of contributors, and all contributions are positive ones, with some exceptions, and Unless of course you are on the left of His Excellency...

Sparticas
11-05-2010, 09:15 PM
SO, where are we heading with this thread, and why is still lingering on in the forum, either it should be closed or some positive inputs should be added, and i don't think its possible till the time the gun doesn't come to the market. SO lets some body neutral summarize the thread and Mods to close it .............

Salahuddin Ayubi
11-05-2010, 09:18 PM
I have already fired it.

It is not bad, but it is not 80,000 worth.

No, I am not drunk...


That pretty much sums it up.

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 09:21 PM
Please close the thread before someone else's target gets perforated...