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Taurus
06-04-2010, 01:57 AM
Salams!! I was out this sunday as a normal routine to the firing range ...so saw a friend owning this beauty he is also our member and is less active here thought to take pics and tested some rounds with it well ppl say glock is a glock i would say beretta is also after all beretta really like the balanced of this pistol i would say its a dead accurate pistol it has low felt recoil and the best thing is crispy and extreme smooth trigger ...i Felt its trigger balance weighing like 3.5 lbs... Took snaps from the mobile Sorry for the poor result (i Thought i should have my cam next time to take some more pics of this beauty)
Comparing with Glock 17 ,Stoeger Cougar, Smith and wesson M&P
I would take this as my first choice as its balance is gr8 and according to beauty and performance it wins hands down from all of the above
Why i compared it with cougar because its felt recoil is lower than that of cougar and even more accurate than cougar...the real difference between cougar and px4storm is of trigger its trigger is very smooth compare with cougar plus the fit and finish is excellent and much better than cougar...
Finally its an excellent choice for range use the reason is its accurate and excellent trigger!!
Most of the ppl in range here use Glock 17. i would say to add it up to ur list for the choice between glock and M&P
s its on their hands they would love it!!!
Here you go with the pics
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00181-20100404-1746.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00180-20100404-1745.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00182-20100404-1746.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00183-20100404-1746.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00185-20100404-1747.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00190-20100404-1749.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00187-20100404-1748.jpg
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/Taurus247/IMG00191-20100404-1750.jpg

Oasis
06-04-2010, 02:17 AM
AOA ..

Nice pistol & good review bro. :)

Thx.

Sensei
06-04-2010, 02:29 AM
Indeed an extremely beautiful gun in fifth pic who will not say its a cougar,@Taurus I believe that px4 storm is quite a modified and improved version of cougar and ofcourse it would be more or much better than cougar in some areas no doubt & no direct comparision indeed but keeping time periods of their origin in my mind their price tags etc and now after seen your
review about Strorm Berreta I can say that stoeger cougar is one of the top class handgun in its price tag, very well done Mod and thanks for sharing such a wonderful thing with us
http://s4.postimage.org/ChhBJ.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Yardie Jutt
06-04-2010, 02:39 AM
very nice review...btw does it fall in the same price bracket as that of glock 17??

Sensei
06-04-2010, 02:55 AM
may be above I think so :cool:

PrivateEye
06-04-2010, 03:22 AM
Beautiful gun and a good review.
But keeping in mind the prices tags attached to Couger and PX4 .. Both wins equally in their ranges.
Lets see when does Beretta hands over the production of PX4 to Stoeger :p (i know its not a possibility)

Sensei
06-04-2010, 03:37 AM
Beautiful gun and a good review.
But keeping in mind the prices tags attached to Couger and PX4 .. Both wins equally in their ranges.
Lets see when does Beretta hands over the production of PX4 to Stoeger :p (i know its not a possibility)

+1 PrivateEye it could be done if berreta will think about px thunder storm :lol:

khurramdool
06-04-2010, 06:56 AM
Very nice but is it available here and price tag plz.

Salahuddin Ayubi
06-04-2010, 07:00 AM
Nice share Taurus. Well done.

When's Caracal's review coming up?

Gilani
06-04-2010, 07:56 AM
Very nice review Taurus Sir. A nice handgun indeed. Thanks for sharing the pics. :)
And nice shooting BTW, what was the distance this target was shot from?

Vik
06-04-2010, 08:16 AM
Beauty. If its Italian than must be expensive.I am estimating 300k.

Are the grips adjustable.

Aquarius
06-04-2010, 10:14 AM
The same rotating barrel mechanism as Stoegar Cougar, but in a polymer frame & if you strip it then one can see that both are quite identical to each other... beautiful indeed & very good review...... :)

Shariq
06-04-2010, 10:33 AM
Good work. Any idea about price and availability?

Gunpsycho
06-04-2010, 10:59 AM
@ Shariq Bro Badar & Brothers demanding 325k 15 days back :) :)

Taurus
06-04-2010, 12:33 PM
Well last i checked for the price is Rs.250k which is on a very higher side ...I think the fair price for this weapon should be 80k but u know in pakistan we calculate it 3 times higher so 180k is a fine price to buy!!!!
@Gilani :- Bro this was not my chart it was the chart of the owner of this gun and distance was 15m
@Vik:- Grips are adjustable!!!
@Salahuddin Ayubi:- Inshallah very soon i will get the review for caracal, M&P, HK USP, Sig p226 with a better cam
@All:- Yes the cougar in this price range is an excellent choice whereas i think in the second last pic all of u have seen the barrel...The barrel is exactly the same of cougar no difference, I checked it thoroughly...The difference is of the quality,accuracy,Trigger ,fit and finish which takes it to the higher side

Faheem
06-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Taurus bro very nice review of extreamily perect handgun. After one of the beautyful review of mentioned handgun, we can just pray.

"Kash Beretta Px4 storm bhi Stouger kay hawaley kardey or same gun we can buy in economical price" Ameen......


http://s3.postimage.org/QBhfJ.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Maximus
06-04-2010, 12:52 PM
Awesome pistol and nice share Taurus bro.

it even has a dedicated page.second hit on google.nice info

adapted from http://www.px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=55

-

The new Beretta Px4 Storm pistol is the most advanced expression of technological and aesthetic features in a semiautomatic sidearm.
Built around a modular concept that a pistol can be adapted to different needs and modes of operations, without compromising on ergonomics and the renowned Beretta reliability and performance, the Px4 Storm emphasizes power, ease of handling, performance and reliability.
Initially manufactured in three calibers, the Px4 Storm uses an exclusive Beretta designed innovative locked-breech with rotating barrel system, the strongest action to date.
The light yet durable frame employs modern thermoplastic technology through the use of technopolymer reinforced fiberglass.
Modular structure, ergonomics and interchangeability of parts make the Px4 Storm the ideal firearm for law-enforcement use, as well as personal defense.

http://www.px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=48
technical data included this...

Slide
Steel, sandblasted, phosphatized and Bruniton coated.

Barrel
Steel, sandblasted and blued. Internally chromium-plated.

sounds really reliable.

iffe
06-04-2010, 01:41 PM
great review and nice pistol

Slayerjatt
06-04-2010, 02:26 PM
beautiful gun and excellent review. thanks for sharing.

PrivateEye
06-04-2010, 02:33 PM
lol Sensi :lol:

Aquarius
06-04-2010, 04:09 PM
Comparing with Glock 17 ,Stoeger Cougar, Smith and wesson M&P I would take this as my first choice as its balance is gr8 and according to beauty and performance it wins hands down from all of the above

As far as Stoegar Cougar & S&W MP is concerned, your statement may be rite but as far as Glock 17 is concerned you are rite about the beauty of PX4 storm, but in the performance department, I doubt it......... :)

Vik
06-04-2010, 04:25 PM
Comparing with Glock 17 ,Stoeger Cougar, Smith and wesson M&P I would take this as my first choice as its balance is gr8 and according to beauty and performance it wins hands down from all of the above

As far as Stoegar Cougar & S&W MP is concerned, your statement may be rite but as far as Glock 17 is concerned you are rite about the beauty of PX4 storm, but in the performance department, I doubt it......... :)

That day is not far off, when myth/bubble of Glock will burst. :)

Dr Zakir
06-04-2010, 05:23 PM
Beretta sig glock hk walther , these all are great guns and difference is mostly on personal preference of individual

Aquarius
06-04-2010, 05:26 PM
Beretta sig glock hk walther , these all are great guns and difference is mostly on personal preference of individual

+1 Dr Zakir Sir............. :)

Taurus
06-04-2010, 05:29 PM
+1 Dr.zakir, when i ran some rounds to px4storm i liked it much better than any weapon....My friend Imu10 didnt but i bet its having a better trigger than glock ...

Aquarius
06-04-2010, 05:40 PM
Well a better trigger does'nt mean that its better than Glock in overall performance. There are plenty of other guns in the market having better trigger than Glock...but in the end as Dr Sahib stated........a matter of personal preferance.... :)

PsiFactor
06-04-2010, 07:42 PM
Awesome pistol and nice photography Taurus brother.

Ahsanfurqan
06-04-2010, 11:10 PM
nice pistol nd well reviewd

SPAYPANTHER
07-04-2010, 12:15 AM
Is its mechanism is same as stoger (rotary ) ??

Abbas
07-04-2010, 01:37 AM
http://www.postimage.org/templates/images/smiley/agreement/0.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Budha Khan
07-04-2010, 02:40 AM
Great review by Taurus sb...

Budha Khan
07-04-2010, 02:42 AM
we are fortunate that around 50 k we can get the pistol of almost px 4 standard...paying less getting more...its non other than SC 8000....

Denovo87
07-04-2010, 06:02 AM
we are fortunate that around 50 k we can get the pistol of almost px 4 standard...paying less getting more...its non other than SC 8000....

If you are considering pistol for pistol then any local 9mm is a fortunate thing to have if someone cannot afford px 4, otherwise we cannot substitute SC8000 for everything eating 9mm :)

Faheem
07-04-2010, 07:16 AM
Denovo87 sir on last week Me and Glockcholic brother has discussed that point that SC8000 has not a ammo sensetive handgun we can fire any type of 9mm bullet in SC.

He explained me in detail that he has tried FTF rounds from other handguns in SC8000 and got success.

GatlinGun
07-04-2010, 07:19 AM
+1 RTTV (Real Treat to View)

Aamar
07-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Good one :D

BulletHog
07-04-2010, 04:15 PM
has anyone seen the compact model of px4 around...it is also an interesting piece ... tilt locking instead of rotating ... but a nice gun for cc...(although some may think its too fat)

Gilani
07-04-2010, 10:09 PM
we are fortunate that around 50 k we can get the pistol of almost px 4 standard...paying less getting more...its non other than SC 8000....
Sir, I don't think Stoeger Cougar is anywhere near the quality / standard of Beretta PX4 Storm.................. PX4 Storm is a quality gun, Stoeger Cougar is just another gun available in the market. Nothing drastically wrong with it, nothing very special about it. It may be compared with the likes of Canik55, Sarsilmaz, Zigana, Taurus, Norinco handguns but not with Beretta PX4 Storm or other original Beretta guns. It may have been manufactured on an outdated Beretta plant but it has Turkish manufactured parts (more importantly a Turkish MKEK manufactured barrel) and is nowhere equal to Italian / US made Beretta guns in performance. Just my two cents on the issue :)

Dr Zakir
08-04-2010, 12:24 AM
yes i think the same px4 storm should not be compared with cougar . however i will compare it to walther p99

Sensei
08-04-2010, 12:28 AM
Well brothers though it is already discuused in great details and finally concluded as that its a matter of preference of an individual,personal point of view can be put one time or can be repeat in reply of any relevant question,anyway without going in to it here I would say that someone of us may not be very expressive & I dont think it would be nice to start same thing every where thats why here I would only like to say that dont
ever think low about stoeger cougar this is a very high and fine quality handgun ofcourse may not be in wish list of many but it does`t make any difference at all every thing so special to any good gun is already there no question in it, to those who are
considering stoeger cougar as future weapon here I would say
that quality,fininshin,durability,beauty,wise stoeger cougar is ofcourse not the only but one of the best guns available in this price range,to me it is the first best one and ofcourse stoeger cougar can be compare with Px4 storm because of the same linage http://s3.postimage.org/237Hi.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Budha Khan
08-04-2010, 02:03 AM
GILANI SB i agree... i just was alike the 1 who spends around 50,55 for SC 8000 is more reasonable than that who buys PX 4 on above 2 lacs... I think the way Taurus Sab thinks as i read his review somewhere that If we cud get PX 4 for 80 k in pak then its justified... i wud if i cud pick px 4 even on 100 k but i think non of the branded pistols deserve more than 100 k...

Budha Khan
08-04-2010, 02:06 AM
Sensei Sab i agree with u too...i m not a range shooter, neither in my view most of the pistols wud be designed for accuracy on longer distances... outside the forum i din't see any one considering SC 8000 less accurate any way... the same rotating barrel is there in PX 4 and few modifications and improvements wud definitely be made in PX but for SD purpose in this price bracket so far i cudn't see a better HG than SC 8000... my judgement may be clouded but this is my NAQIS raey... :P

Sensei
08-04-2010, 04:13 AM
@Budhakhan brother your point is not Naqis it is very solid ;)
I believe that the only gun we can discuss with Px4 storm that is stoeger couger & ofcourse not every gun is made for same purpose I agreed

Faheem
08-04-2010, 07:31 AM
Well after discussion with some pakguns real collectors of world's most expensive handguns, they advised me that Stouger couger is one of the best handgun available in under 100k and its standard is same like all other top rated handguns.

Even they love to carry Souger Couger on daily basis, on the other hand they have a huge collection of Glock
(pictures are still available in old threads). It deosn't mean that I am prefering SC on Glock :)

Brothers scouger couger is not for targeting purpose :) its a simple compact handgun with short barrel.

Very reliable and most durable handgun and well built on Beretta's CNC plant and locking barrel system is superb.

Recoil has moderate and the frame/slide friction parts are less and recycling process is very smooth.

Atleast I love stouger couger and I cant prefare any other handgun (under 100 k) on Stouger couger.

So if any one wanna get this handgun so just go and very confidently buy this handgun.

Aquarius
08-04-2010, 10:59 AM
True indeed Faheem brother........... :)

Budha Khan
08-04-2010, 08:01 PM
Thanks Sensei bro

Budha Khan
08-04-2010, 08:09 PM
Faheem bro!!! u did make a point... but SC is not an inaccurate HG... if SCs are less accurate then the same wud be the case wid PX 4... IMO if the HG is effective between 7-25 yards it fulfils one's accuracy requirements...

Budha Khan
08-04-2010, 08:30 PM
most of us await for SC's accuracy test on HGs' accuracy thread by Gilani Sab... :P

Faheem
08-04-2010, 08:38 PM
Budha Khan sir How can i say that SC is an inaccurate handgun I think you didn't get ma point.... I strongly prefere you the below mentioned link here you can get my point very easily.

Our very expert member Glockcohlic brother has explained this point in detail...


http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=113400#p113400

Shariq
08-04-2010, 08:42 PM
@Budha Khan
Our Expert panel member Imu10 hits nothing but bulls eye with Stoeger Cougar from 10m and occasional 9 from 15m. Its an accurate gun with low felt recoil. Take my word for it :)
In fact Imu10 shoots accurately from any imported gun he lays his hands on. After seeing his scores i am sure that whatever inaccuracy we experience is due to our faulty technique. Its true that some guns suit our hands better and we fire from them comfortably but it doesn't mean that rest are inaccurate. ( Except for guns which require sight adjustment ).
An example. From 15m, my average score with different handguns is around 143/150. But i could not score even 130/150 from S&W Sigma. I could have concluded that it is little inaccurate but It was the same gun which was used by Imu10 to win the shooting competition at PNS range.

Shariq
08-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Of course range report from an experienced shooter like Gilani Sahib would be true test of this argument.

ACHILLES
08-04-2010, 08:45 PM
@Sqnldr_Shariq

hAVE you checked ths FNP issued to air force, how they shoot?

Shariq
08-04-2010, 08:48 PM
A little off topic but!
Haven't seen them anywhere up till now.

Sensei
09-04-2010, 02:28 AM
@Budha Khan
Our Expert panel member Imu10 hits nothing but bulls eye with Stoeger Cougar from 10m and occasional 9 from 15m. Its an accurate gun with low felt recoil. Take my word for it :)
In fact Imu10 shoots accurately from any imported gun he lays his hands on. After seeing his scores i am sure that whatever inaccuracy we experience is due to our faulty technique. Its true that some guns suit our hands better and we fire from them comfortably but it doesn't mean that rest are inaccurate. ( Except for guns which require sight adjustment ).
An example. From 15m, my average score with different handguns is around 143/150. But i could not score even 130/150 from S&W Sigma. I could have concluded that it is little inaccurate but It was the same gun which was used by Imu10 to win the shooting competition at PNS range.

Amazing Shariq brother really impressive posthttp://s1.postimage.org/mO4xr.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Budha Khan
09-04-2010, 02:33 AM
i knew what u were saying Faheem bro... any way thnx 4 explaining further...its kind of u

Budha Khan
09-04-2010, 02:34 AM
SQNLDR_Shariq SB!!! its so well explained by u, Sir!!!

Imu10
12-04-2010, 12:49 PM
+1 Dr.zakir, when i ran some rounds to px4storm i liked it much better than any weapon....My friend Imu10 didnt but i bet its having a better trigger than glock ...

My Brother Saleem,
as u said in ur post that U FELT IT'S TRIGGER WAS 3.5 LBS no its not true i am sure u liked the weapon when u saw it, i also liked the weapon when i saw it, but that liking was only for its looks not for its range performance.
In short like we say "LAHORE LAHORE HAY" is he tarhaan "GLOCK GLOACK HAY"
Specially one with the Customised trigger of 2.5Lbs
Regards Imu10

Aquarius
12-04-2010, 01:22 PM
+1 Dr.zakir, when i ran some rounds to px4storm i liked it much better than any weapon....My friend Imu10 didnt but i bet its having a better trigger than glock ...

My Brother Saleem,
as u said in ur post that U FELT IT'S TRIGGER WAS 3.5 LBS no its not true i am sure u liked the weapon when u saw it, i also liked the weapon when i saw it, but that liking was only for its looks not for its range performance.
In short like we say "LAHORE LAHORE HAY" is he tarhaan "GLOCK GLOACK HAY"
Specially one with the Customised trigger of 2.5Lbs
Regards Imu10

+1 Imu10 bro: "GLOCK GLOCK HAY".. very correct ...... :)

oumayer
22-04-2010, 03:35 AM
Lovely handgun, an improvised version of the cougar I think.

Good review...

Taurus
22-04-2010, 04:01 AM
Dear Imu,
i know glock glock hay but beretta beretta hain...its abt the fit of the gun i also know when u tested cougar they dont fit on ur hand properly ...

superkoolguy
10-11-2010, 12:20 AM
Its a good pistol, but man its damn expensive!

mhrehman
11-11-2010, 12:07 AM
thanks for sharing bro

RazaRajpoot
11-11-2010, 10:13 AM
very nice gun

AK47
11-11-2010, 10:21 AM
In my opinion, a "souped up" Cougar, with better ergonomics. :)

Naseer
27-09-2011, 11:57 PM
Please let me know if I post pictures of my PX4 INOX here.

Denovo87
28-09-2011, 12:22 AM
Please let me know if I post pictures of my PX4 INOX here.

Why not; specially if you have to say something about your px4, good or bad what ever your experience is with it.

Sorry forgot to welcome you; Welcome aboard brother, enjoy the place & share your experience of NPB firearms, legal hunts, range sessions etc.

M.ASIF KHAN
28-09-2011, 12:47 AM
Please let me know if I post pictures of my PX4 INOX here.



welcome NASEER bro waiting for your px4 review

Naseer
28-09-2011, 07:18 AM
AssalamOalaikum,
Thank you very much indeed for nice greetings and the welcome in the forum. Sorry, I don't have my PX4 yet, but expecting it in a few days. I did fire my PHP-MV9 in range the gun my cousin (who also introduced pakguns to me) disapproved and led me to trade it in for PX4. I am new to guns, as apparent on attached range card that I did with my revolver. I would post PX4 pics in future, but for now I can show you the LMS-MICRO that I bought for my awaited gun.

Naseer
30-09-2011, 08:11 AM
I finally got my "Beretta Px4 Storm-F INOX". Here are some pics.

Trigger_happy78
30-09-2011, 10:12 AM
Nice pics and awsome gun naseer bro

HussainAli
30-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Dear Naseer Bro, Very nice & wounderful Weapon Congrat !!!!!!

Hope to have range review soon !!!

Regards

s.cheema
30-09-2011, 12:59 PM
congrats, beautiful gun. how much did you get it for

Glock5
30-09-2011, 01:16 PM
yes gun indeed.....is its "subcompact" version also available ?

Glock5
30-09-2011, 01:17 PM
Nice i meant !!

Naseer
01-10-2011, 06:08 AM
@ Trigger_happy78
@ HussainAli

Thanks.

Naseer
01-10-2011, 06:11 AM
yes gun indeed.....is its "subcompact" version also available ?

I had to specially order the INOX (stainless steal slide) version in the Storm-F, I'm not sure if it is available in subcompact.

Naseer
01-10-2011, 06:22 AM
congrats, beautiful gun. how much did you get it for
I learned from the Beretta Warranty that for Pakistan (also for Singapore, Malaysia & Thailand) the distributor is ARMS RINDT, Ingle Road, Quetta, Tel: +43 -66 4430 6451, fax +43 6462 4214. Here I spent ~$650.00 for it.

Naseer
01-10-2011, 07:43 AM
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=288891211121667

Here is my range video with the pistol @ 10m. I need forum expert opinion on my aim, recoil handling, sight adjustment, laser adjustment. Should I be happy with my group?

Aquarius
01-10-2011, 09:48 AM
I had to specially order the INOX (stainless steal slide) version in the Storm-F, I'm not sure if it is available in subcompact.

Its available in compact as well as subcompact versions.. the compacts doesn't have the rotatory barrel system as do the full sized version.

@Naseer beautiful item you got there.

Naseer
03-10-2011, 12:03 AM
Its available in compact as well as subcompact versions.. the compacts doesn't have the rotatory barrel system as do the full sized version.

@Naseer beautiful item you got there.

Thanks. Is my range video available? I didn't find option to upload the video from my computer.

AHMEDPG
03-10-2011, 12:23 AM
Naseer,
congrats, beautiful gun. how much did you get it for ?

Regards
Ahmed

Naseer
03-10-2011, 07:37 AM
Naseer,
congrats, beautiful gun. how much did you get it for ?

Regards
Ahmed

Thanks again, I traded my PHP-MV9 for it. Including all those costs I spent ~US$650.00 for Px4 INOX.

GUNFREAK
03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
I once had the pleasure to test px4 compact at the range, indeed a solid weapon, though the recoile was a bit more than the g26.

regards

Sturmgewehr
03-10-2011, 01:56 PM
beautiful gun I hope barreta does consider giving it over to stoeger arms...

Naseer
04-10-2011, 08:00 AM
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=288891211121667

Here is my range video with the pistol @ 10m. I need forum expert opinion on my aim, recoil handling, sight adjustment, laser adjustment. Should I be happy with my group?

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=288891211121667

Naseer
16-10-2011, 05:55 AM
4867Here is my range pictures with the pistol @ 10m. On top is the laser position and on the bottom is corresponding position of the shot. There are thus five laser dots and corresponding shots. I need forum expert opinion on my aim, recoil handling, sight adjustment, laser adjustment. Should I be happy with my group?

AK47
16-10-2011, 10:06 AM
4867Here is my range pictures with the pistol @ 10m. On top is the laser position and on the bottom is corresponding position of the shot. There are thus five laser dots and corresponding shots. I need forum expert opinion on my aim, recoil handling, sight adjustment, laser adjustment. Should I be happy with my group?

Thanks for a nice share.

I think your laser needs either no more adjustment, or at the most, a click or two upwards on the elevation scale.

Reason why I'm saying there may be no need for further adjustment is due to shot No. 1. Excellent.

Your shots are generally an inch or or 2 to the lower of the POA. Hence, could be due to a slight jerk downwards at trigger release, or what's also called flinching/anticipation.

I'm not an expert with shooting diagnosis, so let's see what the seniors have to say.

Yet, just an idea, if you can't get past this low shooting tendency, how about adjusting the laser elevation an inch higher, so that you'd be pointing an inch higher but still getting the bull??

Overall, I must say, this is pretty impressive. Further efficiency of the laser would be clear, if you do a group of 5 consecutive shots in rapid. Just shoot again as soon as you find the beam back on the bull, would be pretty interesting to see that sequence.

Also, kindly share your stance with these shots, were you still aiming naturally, means, checking the beam through the iron sights, or was it purely point shooting ? That's a new habit one has to adjust to, since checking it through the iron sights kind of offsets the very need of the laser as a whole, lolz!


Let's see more, and the vid above is not working, for your info!


Regards.

Naseer
20-10-2011, 06:44 AM
Thanks for a nice share.
I think your laser needs either no more adjustment, or at the most, a click or two upwards on the elevation scale.
Reason why I'm saying there may be no need for further adjustment is due to shot No. 1. Excellent.
Your shots are generally an inch or or 2 to the lower of the POA. Hence, could be due to a slight jerk downwards at trigger release, or what's also called flinching/anticipation.
I'm not an expert with shooting diagnosis, so let's see what the seniors have to say.
Yet, just an idea, if you can't get past this low shooting tendency, how about adjusting the laser elevation an inch higher, so that you'd be pointing an inch higher but still getting the bull??
Overall, I must say, this is pretty impressive. Further efficiency of the laser would be clear, if you do a group of 5 consecutive shots in rapid. Just shoot again as soon as you find the beam back on the bull, would be pretty interesting to see that sequence.
Also, kindly share your stance with these shots, were you still aiming naturally, means, checking the beam through the iron sights, or was it purely point shooting ? That's a new habit one has to adjust to, since checking it through the iron sights kind of offsets the very need of the laser as a whole, lolz!
Let's see more, and the vid above is not working, for your info!
Regards.
Thanks bro, I really appreciate your advice and time. I solely depended upon the laser for aiming my pistol. I'll try to adjust laser with sight (I may use a light through barrel for zeroing). Do you think the laser shakes due to the recoil and needs adjustment after every shot? I guess I need another range visit to check if I improve flinching/anticipation (jerk downwards at trigger release).
With best wishes
Naseer

AK47
20-10-2011, 09:21 AM
Thanks bro, I really appreciate your advice and time. I solely depended upon the laser for aiming my pistol. I'll try to adjust laser with sight (I may use a light through barrel for zeroing). Do you think the laser shakes due to the recoil and needs adjustment after every shot? I guess I need another range visit to check if I improve flinching/anticipation (jerk downwards at trigger release).
With best wishes
Naseer

Thanks. You're welcome.

No, I do not think so, since you've a relatively class laser attached to your gun and this would render it useless as such.

I think you should not make any changes to it so far, just visit the range again and try to control your own would-be faults first, like flinching, etc.

If you still find it out of zero, then change upon anything.

Actually, I remember when a fellow bro came over to me to check out his sight-adjustable 608 revolver. It was shooting perfectly fine but he wanted more from it and adjusted a few clicks up/down/left/right only to find it worsening out and we never got it back to stock settings again.

Personal errors should be corrected first before correction on the gadgets, especially since your laser is already very close to perfect zero.

As for the laser boresighter, well, I think it may have been useful for the beginning to get you onto the paper, yet experiment with the adjustment only after another good session.

This make of laser should be able to hold zero retention, yet i agree, you do have to adjust every time, had it been a Chinese one!!


Regards.

Naseer
30-10-2011, 09:15 PM
Appreciate bro AK47: I have to wait until December to find time for the range, so any shooting improvement has to be delayed until then. I learned about the bore-laser (http://www.laserlyte.com/products/mbs-1) that could have been used for my 9mm. However, I bought US$10 laser that I can put through the barrel to align with main laser dot. I'll try to post pictures when this experiment gets conducted.

Naseer
20-11-2011, 10:14 PM
I used US$10 laser that I put through the barrel to align with main laser dot. But the cheep laser never stayed straight when tried to be aligned in the middle of the barrel. I could have used the bore-laser http://www.laserlyte.com/products/mbs-1. May be I should have contentment with my sight and "LaserMax LMS-MICRO" pica-tinny rail laser.

malik160
26-11-2011, 02:06 AM
excellent weapon, and great review, any price idea?
regards

basal_ch
30-11-2011, 05:31 PM
Congrates Naseer
dats an Excellent piece of Beauty

Naseer
19-12-2011, 10:48 PM
excellent weapon, and great review, any price idea?
regards
Thanks, I learned from the Beretta Warranty that for Pakistan (also for Singapore, Malaysia & Thailand) the distributor is ARMS RINDT, Ingle Road, Quetta, Tel: +43 -66 4430 6451, fax +43 6462 4214. I hope these are valid info., here I spent ~$650.00 for this Px4 INOX.

Naseer
19-12-2011, 10:54 PM
Congrates Naseer
dats an Excellent piece of Beauty

Thanks, here is the pic of full kit of the gun and Russian appetite for this Italian Lady.
6719

Naseer
23-05-2013, 02:00 AM
2143521436
Two Lasers for Cold Target Adjustment

Fudgepacker
23-05-2013, 11:22 AM
I see no reason why a Beretta can not be compared against a Stoeger, or a Sig against a Taurus. We should all keep in mind that just because a pistol is "branded", that does not make it a good or better product by default. In my home market, a Glock is priced within $150 of a Norinco (which are often valued as a platform for building competition guns, due to their quality forging and superior metallurgy). So a gun's "cost" and "worth" are two different things. But what's really important to form an objective and informed opinion, is to specify parameters of comparison. Instead of saying a PX4 is better than gun "x" just because it's a Beretta, one must consider whether that's because it has an advantage in accuracy, reliability, comfort, capacity, materials, fit, finish... or does just being more exclusive make it "better"?

raohadi
23-05-2013, 11:56 AM
I see no reason why a Beretta can not be compared against a Stoeger, or a Sig against a Taurus. We should all keep in mind that just because a pistol is "branded", that does not make it a good or better product by default. In my home market, a Glock is priced within $150 of a Norinco (which are often valued as a platform for building competition guns, due to their quality forging and superior metallurgy). So a gun's "cost" and "worth" are two different things. But what's really important to form an objective and informed opinion, is to specify parameters of comparison. Instead of saying a PX4 is better than gun "x" just because it's a Beretta, one must consider whether that's because it has an advantage in accuracy, reliability, comfort, capacity, materials, fit, finish... or does just being more exclusive make it "better"?
+11111111....................:) my thoughts exactly!!

Enigmatic Desires
23-05-2013, 12:01 PM
I see no reason why a Beretta can not be compared against a Stoeger, or a Sig against a Taurus. We should all keep in mind that just because a pistol is "branded", that does not make it a good or better product by default. In my home market, a Glock is priced within $150 of a Norinco (which are often valued as a platform for building competition guns, due to their quality forging and superior metallurgy). So a gun's "cost" and "worth" are two different things. But what's really important to form an objective and informed opinion, is to specify parameters of comparison. Instead of saying a PX4 is better than gun "x" just because it's a Beretta, one must consider whether that's because it has an advantage in accuracy, reliability, comfort, capacity, materials, fit, finish... or does just being more exclusive make it "better"?


Here people buy on the basis of Status Symbols. I.e a PX Storm that costs a horrendous 450k here ($ 4500) approx. Would be in a league of its own simply by virtue of its price alone. if u dare tell the owner that his Storm is more or less the same as a Norinco which is worht around 10% of the price he has paid for his Storm.

He is liable to shoot U on principle!

I harbour much the same sentiment for Glockoholics as well! But again not to their face... I am tooo chicken!

Aquarius
23-05-2013, 01:48 PM
@Naseesr.. are those lasers specifically made for PX4.. and can you ellaborate a little about the bullet shaped laser where in the gun it should be fixed..

Dr Zakir
23-05-2013, 03:46 PM
For me it is exactly like stoeger so considering price difference in Pakistan I will pick a stoeger rather then paying 2500$ for storm

Aquarius
23-05-2013, 07:12 PM
For me it is exactly like stoeger so considering price difference in Pakistan I will pick a stoeger rather then paying 2500$ for storm
+1 Dr sahib.. its the pedigree that PX4 is so expensive.

Naseer
24-05-2013, 12:33 AM
For me it is exactly like stoeger so considering price difference in Pakistan I will pick a stoeger rather then paying 2500$ for storm

Here people buy on the basis of Status Symbols. I.e a PX Storm that costs a horrendous 450k here ($ 4500) approx. Would be in a league of its own simply by virtue of its price alone. if u dare tell the owner that his Storm is more or less the same as a Norinco which is worht around 10% of the price he has paid for his Storm.
He is liable to shoot U on principle!
I harbour much the same sentiment for Glockoholics as well! But again not to their face... I am tooo chicken!
Wow! $2500 or $4500 is a real rip-off. My gun cost was ~$650 and if I had opted for regular slide instead of INOX (stainless steel) the price would been lower. So who is taking away about $2000-$4000 from Px4 lovers in Pakistan?

Naseer
24-05-2013, 12:59 AM
I see no reason why a Beretta can not be compared against a Stoeger, or a Sig against a Taurus. We should all keep in mind that just because a pistol is "branded", that does not make it a good or better product by default. In my home market, a Glock is priced within $150 of a Norinco (which are often valued as a platform for building competition guns, due to their quality forging and superior metallurgy). So a gun's "cost" and "worth" are two different things. But what's really important to form an objective and informed opinion, is to specify parameters of comparison. Instead of saying a PX4 is better than gun "x" just because it's a Beretta, one must consider whether that's because it has an advantage in accuracy, reliability, comfort, capacity, materials, fit, finish... or does just being more exclusive make it "better"?
My first gun PHP-MV9 was battle tested military gun. It was not 100% accurate though but I was sure that it won't burst in my hand. That gun was inspired by Beretta and P38, and my natural liking was the Italian touch. When my cousin disapproved the looks of my PHP-MV9 I had to shut him up by trading in my older gun for Px4 inox.

Naseer
24-05-2013, 01:21 AM
@Naseesr.. are those lasers specifically made for PX4.. and can you ellaborate a little about the bullet shaped laser where in the gun it should be fixed..
The laser-max have a Px4 or its like as a model-gun on their page.
https://www.lasermax.com/ProductDetails/tabid/127/ProductID/490/Default.aspx I bought it since it didn't increase in the bulk of this fat-gun. I'll try to post pictures here when I do the cold test. The barrel-laser should be straight dot (double check through sight) and I would adjust the rail-laser dot with it.

SMNAP
24-05-2013, 02:10 AM
When a person pays such a high amount for any particular weapon then obviously he will and mostly the other people will also claim that its much better then the cheaper weapons which are available in the market. Even though they might be more rugged and durable as compared to the pricy models...

In the end its all about consumer's perceptions and product positioning...

Aquarius
24-05-2013, 10:10 AM
The laser-max have a Px4 or its like as a model-gun on their page.
https://www.lasermax.com/ProductDetails/tabid/127/ProductID/490/Default.aspx I bought it since it didn't increase in the bulk of this fat-gun. I'll try to post pictures here when I do the cold test. The barrel-laser should be straight dot (double check through sight) and I would adjust the rail-laser dot with it.
Thanks for the information Naseer bro.

Enigmatic Desires
24-05-2013, 11:06 AM
Wow! $2500 or $4500 is a real rip-off. My gun cost was ~$650 and if I had opted for regular slide instead of INOX (stainless steel) the price would been lower. So who is taking away about $2000-$4000 from Px4 lovers in Pakistan?

No one. They happily give the amount away! If people stop buying at these insane prices either the weapon will disappear from teh market or the prices will come down.

I saw a local knock off copy of the storm in Karachi. No idea about reliability, durability, accuracy or that most important factor with local knock offs "kaboomability"

Asking price 125k Which comes to around $ 1250 for the weapon cause it simply looks quite like the real thing.

alirablm
25-05-2013, 12:33 AM
Salaam everybody,

Please correct me if wrong!

Outside Pakistan, PX-4 gets compared also with Cougar (Stoeger).

Difference, besides ergonomics & switchable grip piece (PX4); is of polymer (PX4) & Metal (alloy - Cougar).

Having the same rotary barrel, recoil gets further dampened in Cougar due to density.

So many websites quote that if one prefers metal over polymer, he/she should choose Cougar over PX4.

The size of thick butt remains on both Cougar / PX4; which is a problem for people with normal to small hands. Indeed this remains common on all barreta models. Barreta tried to overcome this with a specially slim butt profiled gun call VERTEC. But for some reason did not pursue it:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/vertec.htm

The switching of grips (PX4) work a little towards it but does not curtail it effectively.

The latest product development philosphy of barreta is to make an extremely customizable hand gun (PICO); which is currently in compact or sub compact. But more sizes will be offered once it catches on.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/03/beretta-unveils-newest-pistol-the-pico/

The market in West is currently being driven by compacts / subcompact CCW. Most of the innovation is taking place here.

I replace / traded my Cougar for Shadow due to the small / medium hand issue. Given the choice, as i do not like polymer frame guns - I would choose Cougar over PX4.

Regards,

AliRabLM

Fudgepacker
25-05-2013, 06:30 PM
Here people buy on the basis of Status Symbols. I.e a PX Storm that costs a horrendous 450k here ($ 4500) approx. Would be in a league of its own simply by virtue of its price alone. if u dare tell the owner that his Storm is more or less the same as a Norinco which is worht around 10% of the price he has paid for his Storm.

He is liable to shoot U on principle!

I harbour much the same sentiment for Glockoholics as well! But again not to their face... I am tooo chicken!
I know what you mean ED Bro, so sad, but so true :) I guess that mentality exists everywhere... be it with guns, clothes, watches, or cars. But this particular situation just bothers me. With most things, its universal that certain brands cost more than others (usually for a good reason), a Rolex always costs more than a Timex, like a Ferrari is always more than a Mitsubishi, everybody knows the relation. Just like everyone knows the REAL cost of Glocks and Berettas, and their real position in the gun world when compared to other brands. Yet, quadruple their price, and their respect and desirability goes up accordingly. BUT, what if all of a sudden Toyota started pricing their cars in the range of Rolls Royce. Would their prestige and demand go up along with their price? Would people still buy them?
Probably not.

I just don't get it! Maybe Glock should start selling cars!

Aquarius
25-05-2013, 11:52 PM
Very well said.

GUNFREAK
26-05-2013, 02:25 AM
I agree with you Fudgepacker. We are amazed also here in Pakistan that a pack of nicotine in the West cost $6-8 whereas we pay around $1. That's more than six hundred percent the price, insane for us. Wow! Point being, Every country has its own way of things thru taxes, availability of a certain product and other means.

Regards

Fudgepacker
26-05-2013, 08:38 AM
$20 cartons (10 packs) are available, the more expensive nicotine is for name brands like Dunhill, Davidoff, DuMaurier, etc. That being said, I realize different items cost different amounts in different parts of the world, that was not my point.

I apologize for dragging this on, but this subject involving economics and world markets is of particular interest to me. So I just want to make clear what I was trying to say... that is, the hierarchy of brands and their price ratios are what should remain consistent. For example, in many parts of Asia, the tax on new vehicles is at least 100% so in the best case, price for a new car will be double that in the west. BUT the pricing differences among the brands remains the same as in the west... that is, a Honda is still an economy car no matter where you go, whether it starts at 20, 40, or 60k. Mercedes remains a premium brand that will cost 5 times as much, and a Ferrari is still a luxury that costs 10 times as much. Alternatively, in Italy, a Ferrari is STILL a luxury that costs 10 times as much as a Honda, with Mercedes in the middle... the price ratio does not change much. The brand structure does not get turned upside down, the Honda doesnt become a luxury just because it is now an import and the Ferrari is a domestic product. No matter where you are, economy products are mass produced to a set cost, and luxury products are assembled with care using the best technology and materials... and their price differences should reflect that. When a product's status changes, with no material difference (as Glock's brand status and price position should be in line with Taurus, Caracal, Zigana, even Stoeger, but in Pakistan it has been promoted to luxury status, yet they remain physically the same as other Glocks) that is an interesting situation, that I feel is worthy of further insight.

kkhan8
26-05-2013, 10:34 AM
Mr. fudge packer(interesting choice of name) let me take a crack at this particular economic problem you are trying to tackle with my rudimentary understanding.
You mention a perfect market where there is no scarcity or/and all players have equal information but alas there is no such thing.
For example I know for a fact(worked as an assembly engineer in York) that Harley Davidsons are less powerful and reliable then a Japanese bike but are consistently more expensive. In Japan 2 times more so but consistent sellers nonetheless. Price is not always indicative of quality.
Average buyer in pakistan(just like rest of the world) does not have all information to make the best educated decision. someone tells them Glocks are best or they see them in movies and they buy. Mac computers are another example where a product of equal specs priced much higher then competition consistently sell for more. Their advertising is just that good.
Secondly the issue of scarcity plays a large role in determining the price of a product. In a completely free market dee beers would not be able to artificially control the production of diamonds. They do; In turn inject artificial scarcity and elevate prices of carbon molecules not much different then coal.
Glocks are expensive not because they are 5 times better, but because they are 10 times harder to come by. This is bound to increase their value compared to a place where they are readily available. I can find a personal chauffeur for no more the 150 dollars per month because 20 gentleman in my immediate vicinity are without a job and readily available, unlike New York City where one will cost u no less then 3000 dollars a month
The market does not behave logically because all things are not equal. If suddenly all tayota Camrys vanish from the world and you are lucky enough to have one. I can assure you, it will sell for more then a Ferrari.

Naseer
28-05-2013, 02:06 AM
I agree with you Fudgepacker. We are amazed also here in Pakistan that a pack of nicotine in the West cost $6-8 whereas we pay around $1. That's more than six hundred percent the price, insane for us. Wow! Point being, Every country has its own way of things thru taxes, availability of a certain product and other means.

Regards
Coming back to Px4, I took the close-up of the rotating barrel. It may be not enough for 3-D printing :)
2148221483214842148521486

Naseer
28-05-2013, 02:50 AM
The blocking device that prevents forward movement of the firing pin, unless the trigger is completely pulled.

Naseer
28-05-2013, 02:52 AM
Firing Pin

Naseer
28-05-2013, 02:56 AM
Frame2149121492

Naseer
28-05-2013, 03:02 AM
Laser Cold Range Aiming Adjustment
21493214942149521496

Naseer
28-05-2013, 10:38 PM
No one. They happily give the amount away! If people stop buying at these insane prices either the weapon will disappear from teh market or the prices will come down.

I saw a local knock off copy of the storm in Karachi. No idea about reliability, durability, accuracy or that most important factor with local knock offs "kaboomability"

Asking price 125k Which comes to around $ 1250 for the weapon cause it simply looks quite like the real thing.

The US price for Cougar (Stoeger) is $469 which is $200 less than that of Px4. On that basis Cougar(Stoeger)Price+ Rs. 20,000 should be the price of Px4 in Pakistan, am I wrong? If Beretta is overpriced than I am sure it is not only the middleman taking all the profit.

alirablm
28-05-2013, 11:41 PM
Harley Davidsons are less powerful and reliable then a Japanese bike but are consistently more expensive.

Dear kkhan8 (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?5322-kkhan8) - Basically what you are talking about is "brand premium".
The premium brand will always command a higher price in a normal world. For e.g. Sony vs Panasonic (non gun example) & (Baretta 92 vs Taurus PT 92).
Irrespective of what the fanboys of either brand will say.

Dear Fudgepacker (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?15152-Fudgepacker) - Basically what are you referring to is "Purchasing Price Parity" & its obvious conclusion of price consistency across brand set (hierarchy).

To analyze the Pakistani situation of gun pricing, consider these variables:

Almost all the imported guns here have different landing prices (for instance US & European) imports are the most expensive - hence Baretta (read CX-4) & others get jacked up.

Whereas Turk imports are cheaper (read Stoeger Cougar). Central Asian countries landing price are also cheaper.

Visavis Taurus as their international strategy keep the prices low here. And so on. Now add to this recipe a + little known brand + demand + look of the gun => Total PK market price.

I hope this analysis helps!

Regards,

AliRABLM

Naseer
29-05-2013, 01:00 AM
Dear kkhan8 (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?5322-kkhan8) - Basically what you are talking about is "brand premium".
The premium brand will always command a higher price in a normal world. For e.g. Sony vs Panasonic (non gun example) & (Baretta 92 vs Taurus PT 92).
Irrespective of what the fanboys of either brand will say.

Dear Fudgepacker (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?15152-Fudgepacker) - Basically what are you referring to is "Purchasing Price Parity" & its obvious conclusion of price consistency across brand set (hierarchy).

To analyze the Pakistani situation of gun pricing, consider these variables:

Almost all the imported guns here have different landing prices (for instance US & European) imports are the most expensive - hence Baretta (read CX-4) & others get jacked up.

Whereas Turk imports are cheaper (read Stoeger Cougar). Central Asian countries landing price are also cheaper.

Visavis Taurus as their international strategy keep the prices low here. And so on. Now add to this recipe a + little known brand + demand + look of the gun => Total PK market price.

I hope this analysis helps!

Regards,

AliRABLM
That's a great economic analysis Ali bro. If I try to understand it in Px4 terms, then government is adding $1000 import duty and $1000 is added by marketers in the price of this gun?

alirablm
29-05-2013, 01:22 AM
Welcome Naseer Bhai!

"If I try to understand it in Px4 terms, then government is adding $1000 import duty and $1000 is added by marketers in the price of this gun?"

Actually I do not have numbers to back this up! Maybe some members who are on pal terms with dealers can comment!

Also it seems that the gun market is controlled by relatively few large dealers / importers.

Though almost all the dealers claim that they import directly, guns in Karachi market follow a specific supply pattern.
It can't be so clockwork, in case of independent imports (also not viable financially for dealers).

But now as this thing has sparked - let us do a bit of investigative journalism. I will try to get some inside info.

I am sure many seniors on the forum are aware of this phenomenon; but as it rarely gets discussed across the forum, they don't express it!

Regards,

Alirablm

Fudgepacker
29-05-2013, 08:32 AM
Naseer Bro, your analysis makes perfect sense, what's interesting however is that people still buy, with all the extraneous charges and excessive mark ups. Not only do people still buy, but they are bought in numbers that make it worthwhile for the dealers to continue their efforts in importing them.
Khan Bro however, your explanation of supply and demand would only apply in a situation where there is a total shortage of a particular resource. It would not apply in this discussion of a particular brand however, because there isn't a shortage of all guns. In the example you gave, indeed people would pay Ferarri prices for a Camry if there was an extremely limited supply of CARS. However, let's say there was just an extremely limited supply of Toyotas, but, other brands of cars are freely available at regular prices... would it still make sense to pay Ferrari price for a Camry?

kkhan8
29-05-2013, 09:09 AM
Mr Fudgepacker, happens all the time. When a new iPhone or play station is released due to short supply in the beginning, they are going for 3 or 4 times the price on eBay. Even though other phones(older iPhones, competing samsungs) which provide the same function are available. if the buyers wait a couple of weeks they will get the exact same product at a fraction of a cost but they don't. Good money can be made by preordering and selling on ebay hyped tech stuff.

Fudgepacker
29-05-2013, 09:50 AM
It does happen all the time, but what you are describing is "time value". People are only paying a premium just to get a product sooner, and it's perfectly legal and/or moral. Also, when you speak of ebay, you are talking about the secondary market. Manufacturers are still required to publish and sell at their MSRP by law. Price fixing on the other hand, where the price of the product is clearly artificially inflated, is considered illegal in N America, and that's why im having such a hard time wrapping my head around the "accepted pricing strategy" of Glocks in Pakstan.

kkhan8
29-05-2013, 09:59 AM
What I am describing to you is a shortage of a product that has alternatives in the market but the consumer willing to pay a premium nonetheless and market players taking advantage of that.
pakistan is a secondary market with no direct glock dealership per say.
glocks are 500 dollars in Usa not because price fixing is illegal but because of competition. If I wanted to make a competitor of glock and price it at 3000 dollars in USA I could. It wouldn't do to we'll but there is no law stopping me from doing that.

GUNFREAK
29-05-2013, 01:57 PM
To my understanding, there is an embargo of arms sales of particular calibers for individual/ sports from USA and majority of European countries to Pakistan. These weapons find our market through other means. For example I read even in the USA, when there was an embargo for the government from a particular country; that particular country's weapon would cost 2/3 times price in US. There no other science to best of my knowledge.

Regards

alirablm
29-05-2013, 07:25 PM
To my understanding, there is an embargo of arms sales of particular calibers for individual/ sports from USA and majority of European countries to Pakistan.
Regards


Dear GUNFREAK, This makes sense!


However Glock is from Austria whereas CZ are from Chezch Republic. CZs are comparatively better (lower) priced than their US counterparts. I am referring to plain jane CZ shadow and such (not the customized job ones from the CZUSA shop). Also SIGs have non US origin.


Dear KKHAN8
"It wouldn't do to we'll but there is no law stopping me from doing that".


Totally agree! If the GLOCK learns about PK market; they will fly down a rep by next week. The way they have dented market share of Colt & Berreta from US LEA - speaks volume for their aggression.


Dear Fudgepacker


"People are only paying a premium just to get a product sooner, and it's perfectly legal and/or moral"


It maybe correct morally (?) but it is completely illegal (from the Supplier to Direct Consumer).


Just for recollection, remember the premium (OWN, as it was called) we (Pakistanis) had to pay about 5 years ago on various "Zero Meter Cars".


Dear Fudgepacker
"Price fixing on the other hand, where the price of the product is clearly artificially inflated, is considered illegal in N America"


This is illegal in Pakistan too.


However in case of Glock (or any other commodity/brand that has various subsitutes available readily in the same market) it won't apply.


WHY


1. because the supply of GLOCK is extremely inelastic (Favours the Seller) -
2. substitues are readily available (Favours the Buyer).
3. Last condition, buyer is informed (or atleast legally informed).


Hence Law, Economics & Common Sense stays out of the equation.


Then why people buy GLOCK (in PK), in one opinion:


a). because they love the gun in for itself as manifestaton of form and function.
b) they always fantasized about having it.
c) They know & believe for certain that it is world standard of proven excellence & reliability.
d) They can flash it as a status symbol.
e) Other Psychological reason.

Since these are all subjective to buyers mindset, these can not be completely rationalized (meaning, keep your head wrapped).

Alternatively post a poll on GLOCK boards and ask the GLOCK fans if they will pay Pakistani price for GLOCK - please do share their reaction!




Regards,


AliRABLM

Naseer
29-05-2013, 09:02 PM
Welcome Naseer Bhai!
"If I try to understand it in Px4 terms, then government is adding $1000 import duty and $1000 is added by marketers in the price of this gun?"
Actually I do not have numbers to back this up! Maybe some members who are on pal terms with dealers can comment!
Also it seems that the gun market is controlled by relatively few large dealers / importers.
Though almost all the dealers claim that they import directly, guns in Karachi market follow a specific supply pattern.
It can't be so clockwork, in case of independent imports (also not viable financially for dealers).
But now as this thing has sparked - let us do a bit of investigative journalism. I will try to get some inside info.
I am sure many seniors on the forum are aware of this phenomenon; but as it rarely gets discussed across the forum, they don't express it!
Regards,
Alirablm

Naseer Bro, your analysis makes perfect sense, what's interesting however is that people still buy, with all the extraneous charges and excessive mark ups. Not only do people still buy, but they are bought in numbers that make it worthwhile for the dealers to continue their efforts in importing them.

Thanks bhai Ali and Fudgepacker.
Being a consumer myself I wish to accept people's right to appreciate guns of their choice and their will to pay premium price. As per USA prices, Cougar (Stoeger) should cost ~Rs. 70,000 and Px4 (Beretta) should be available at ~Rs.90,000. I don't know the real prices of these two 9mm guns in Pakistan, but what I am hearing on this thread is over-valuing for Px4. I agree with you that "investigation" is needed to identify the "source" of price-manipulation. People like what they want and if import is allowed equally then all foreign guns would have competition. Expensive buyers will just shift to something else if fair price tactics are observed. Need to identify money-making party who is keeping Cougar (Stoeger) at international price while over-inflating Px4 (Beretta) in Pakistan?

Naseer
30-05-2013, 12:48 AM
My first 9mm was PHP-MV9 (inspired by Beretta and P38) and for looks the Italian touch would be appreciated. Beretta can also compete with German guns on other standards. Exchanging that gun with Px4 gave me the "rotating barrel accuracy" and "blocking device saftey" beside others.
21530

Fudgepacker
30-05-2013, 06:52 AM
?..pakistan is a secondary market with no direct glock dealership per say.
That would explain the scenario perfectly. However, the way it perpetuates itself is as Alirabim Bro said, a phenomenon.

What I dont understand then is... How is the import/export being done, and who is doing it; moreover, why is there no competition? If Glock GesmbH does not officially sell to this market, that must mean they are purchased at retail somewhere else and then resold, making them "pre owned", or they are directly supplied by Glock dealers in other countries. If that's the case, wouldn't that make them gray market firearms, since such practices of selling outside your market are strictly against Glock dealer contracts. How would the originating dealer/importer in Pakistan get them on licenses in the first place then?

alirablm
30-05-2013, 06:29 PM
That would explain the scenario perfectly. However, the way it perpetuates itself is as Alirabim Bro said, a phenomenon.

1. How is the import/export being done, and who is doing it; moreover, why is there no competition?

2. If Glock GesmbH does not officially sell to this market, that must mean they are purchased at retail somewhere else and then resold, making them "pre owned", or they are directly supplied by Glock dealers in other countries.

3. If that's the case, wouldn't that make them gray market firearms, since such practices of selling outside your market are strictly against Glock dealer contracts.
How would the originating dealer/importer in Pakistan get them on licenses in the first place then?


Precise summation by Fudgepacker (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?15152-Fudgepacker) - this is the essence indeed - wish someone can shed some light here!

Regards,

AliRAblm

Naseer
30-05-2013, 08:39 PM
Precise summation by Fudgepacker (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?15152-Fudgepacker) - this is the essence indeed - wish someone can shed some light here!
Regards,
AliRAblm

I am also joined in this hope and wish since it is puzzling situation for me. If more west-European guns like Px4 are sold, the marketers profit would be more; so why they would inflate price? How can regulators be hurdle if they are allowing imports from east-European countries?

alirablm
09-06-2013, 10:30 PM
I am also joined in this hope and wish since it is puzzling situation for me. If more west-European guns like Px4 are sold, the marketers profit would be more; so why they would inflate price? How can regulators be hurdle if they are allowing imports from east-European countries?


Seniors are requested to comment; in case convenient and time available: especially , jagga (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?3408-jagga), Aquarius (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?2223-Aquarius), Trigger_happy78 (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?4053-Trigger_happy78), SilverFish, starfish, Abbas sahiban;!

Regards,

AliRablm

Safdar Mahmood Khan
17-06-2013, 12:30 PM
Nice share,The px4 is a good looking gun.

eminentpk
19-07-2013, 02:10 PM
A beauty with a big pricetag

irfan ali
25-07-2013, 05:23 AM
wats the prize in khi for dis Px4 Storm Inox

Enigmatic Desires
26-07-2013, 11:51 AM
wats the prize in khi for dis Px4 Storm Inox

well above 400k. And have never even seen the Inox version.

Even the local copy is around 80k+

SMNAP
26-07-2013, 04:44 PM
I have seen a black one at Tactical Arms

Verve
29-07-2013, 04:16 AM
My 2p...

Weapons from any country with a ban on export to Pakistan come through a re-routing and more middlemen or 'handlers' involved, they take their margins because they are taking risk. And then the big importers of these specific weapons (people in real power - not the puppet governments - usually etc) come in play and they take a big chunk of their margin because people are willing to pay a premium to own such weapons.

Turkish, CZ and Brazilian weapons are on import quota and come through normal channels where customs clearance charges (taxes and duties) AND bribes are added and usually a few importers take orders from normal dealers to place one large order. 1 order can be placed from one country at a time only so sometimes you see shortage of Turk guns or Taurus or CZ etc. Then the importer(s) delivers to dealers their orders. A normal dealer shop makes up to 8k max for a sub 100k pistol/shotgun. Dealers all claim to be importers but handful are actual but with low quantity, even in this channel the big guns are controlling and they don't sell direct to public (unless you are a best buddy of one).

Some or many of you know this already and I won't post the link of the site ... from there you can source any (and I mean ANY) type of weapon and ammo and it is delivered to your doorstep without you doing anything other than paying and opening your door to collect the package, and to any part of the world. But price is minimum 3 times or more (than it would cost in their native manufacturing countries) and these guys only deal in gold as money!!!! And they use state of the art encrypted portal for quotations, orders and payments system.

Verve
29-07-2013, 04:36 AM
well above 400k. And have never even seen the Inox version.

Even the local copy is around 80k+

I saw a local one (Peshawar made) PX4 and the quality of polymer was poor - I say that because it was bulging outwards in only one place on the lower frame rail. Stamping was weak, not crisp clear as it should be so didn't bother opening it to see the internals. Overall it looked as good as pictures and very nice to hold and low weight - asking was 45k.

Also fully inspected a Zafar Alam made 92fs Beretta clone in Black as well - very well machined and finished gun inside and out, for 22k. That was tempting!

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2013, 01:19 PM
I saw a local one (Peshawar made) PX4 and the quality of polymer was poor - I say that because it was bulging outwards in only one place on the lower frame rail. Stamping was weak, not crisp clear as it should be so didn't bother opening it to see the internals. Overall it looked as good as pictures and very nice to hold and low weight - asking was 45k.

Also fully inspected a Zafar Alam made 92fs Beretta clone in Black as well - very well machined and finished gun inside and out, for 22k. That was tempting!

i like Zafars myself. But the thing is people claim that their clones are Zafar alam but most of em are not.. In fact here in karachi they use the term "alam" As good as "zafar alam"

Verve
29-07-2013, 05:10 PM
Bro, where is Zafar Alam factory based? If not too far, then I wouldnt mind paying them a visit. I'm sure some senior members know someone there.

colt 1911
29-07-2013, 05:31 PM
My 2p...

Weapons from any country with a ban on export to Pakistan come through a re-routing and more middlemen or 'handlers' involved, they take their margins because they are taking risk. And then the big importers of these specific weapons (people in real power - not the puppet governments - usually etc) come in play and they take a big chunk of their margin because people are willing to pay a premium to own such weapons.

Turkish, CZ and Brazilian weapons are on import quota and come through normal channels where customs clearance charges (taxes and duties) AND bribes are added and usually a few importers take orders from normal dealers to place one large order. 1 order can be placed from one country at a time only so sometimes you see shortage of Turk guns or Taurus or CZ etc. Then the importer(s) delivers to dealers their orders. A normal dealer shop makes up to 8k max for a sub 100k pistol/shotgun. Dealers all claim to be importers but handful are actual but with low quantity, even in this channel the big guns are controlling and they don't sell direct to public (unless you are a best buddy of one).

Some or many of you know this already and I won't post the link of the site ... from there you can source any (and I mean ANY) type of weapon and ammo and it is delivered to your doorstep without you doing anything other than paying and opening your door to collect the package, and to any part of the world. But price is minimum 3 times or more (than it would cost in their native manufacturing countries) and these guys only deal in gold as money!!!! And they use state of the art encrypted portal for quotations, orders and payments system.

Paying 3 times the price is better than paying 6 or 7 times the original price. a glock can be purchased for 150k or something if paid three times the price

Verve
29-07-2013, 05:52 PM
Found Gul Arms (owner is Haji Zafar Alam) and spoke with him direct about customisation and they can source and fit original beretta barrel and firing pin mechanisms etc. Going to visit after Eid, see the factory and then place the order. Btw, their standard barrel is made of 4140 steel as informed by him. Custom pistol with original berrel etc is made in 15 days due to sourcing of parts.

They are making Stoeger and Zigana F copies too. Will pick up a few Stoeger mags while there and test them in my Stoeger for any ftf etc issuest.

shahroze
29-07-2013, 07:01 PM
All the hassle u are going through wont it be better just to save up and get an original

Verve
29-07-2013, 10:09 PM
It's a personal choice. I'd rather pay 40k+ to a local manufacturer (who employs people in our country and pays them) to get a near enough spec than pay 2lakhs+ that includes over 1lakh+ going in the pockets of highly corrupt and greedy in the import channel. In PK it works out cheaper putting together a beretta with original grip, pins, screws, barrel, complete firing and safety mechanism. Outer shell production is near perfect here now as they have original dies for cloning. I'll request Abbas bhai and other experts here to put this clone through a stress and accuracy test. If it passes the stress and accuracy tests then changes will come.

Reason for above, I didn't move back to PK to feed these import channel blood suckers but instead to create as many new jobs by moving my overseas business's back office operations here and bringing money in to PK than taking it out.

Would people pay 50K (than 2.5lakhs) for a near perfect 92fs clone with all critical parts being original with near accuracy of an original 92fs? I'm willing to test it by spending 50k plus ammo cost and if it is successful, It'll catch on pretty quickly here.

Naseer
30-07-2013, 11:08 PM
Seniors are requested to comment; in case convenient and time available: especially ,jagga (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?3408-jagga), Aquarius (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?2223-Aquarius), Trigger_happy78 (http://www.pakguns.com/member.php?4053-Trigger_happy78), SilverFish, starfish, Abbas sahiban;!
Regards,
AliRablm

My 2p...
Weapons from any country with a ban on export to Pakistan come through a re-routing and more middlemen or 'handlers' involved, they take their margins because they are taking risk. And then the big importers of these specific weapons (people in real power - not the puppet governments - usually etc) come in play and they take a big chunk of their margin because people are willing to pay a premium to own such weapons.
Turkish, CZ and Brazilian weapons are on import quota and come through normal channels where customs clearance charges (taxes and duties) AND bribes are added and usually a few importers take orders from normal dealers to place one large order. 1 order can be placed from one country at a time only so sometimes you see shortage of Turk guns or Taurus or CZ etc. Then the importer(s) delivers to dealers their orders. A normal dealer shop makes up to 8k max for a sub 100k pistol/shotgun. Dealers all claim to be importers but handful are actual but with low quantity, even in this channel the big guns are controlling and they don't sell direct to public (unless you are a best buddy of one).
Some or many of you know this already and I won't post the link of the site ... from there you can source any (and I mean ANY) type of weapon and ammo and it is delivered to your doorstep without you doing anything other than paying and opening your door to collect the package, and to any part of the world. But price is minimum 3 times or more (than it would cost in their native manufacturing countries) and these guys only deal in gold as money!!!! And they use state of the art encrypted portal for quotations, orders and payments system.

Ali Bro, I think after Verve's explanation now I understand that other countries are responsible for that price hike. I didn't know that US and western-Europe ban small-arms' export to Pakistan.

Verve
31-07-2013, 04:57 AM
Naseer bro, I've worked for a few blue-chip technology companies and there are export bans of their high end hardware and software products to Pakistan, Iran and so on. For lower tech hardware & software, they need permissions too. Another company's revolutionary software is not allowed to be sold to Pakistani owned companies. Obviously I can't put names of these companies here as every forum is tracked by the powers who control the likes of google and so on. Heard of google being banned for a while in China and reasons? Heard of how much private data was stolen in europe by google vans that provide google map down to 360 street level images - and EU reacts with a gentle slap on the hand. And youtube ban in PK is benefiting who really - PK media owners and anchors are ecstatic because of youtube ban and so is the establishment along with many others. I digress.

However a lot of banned hardware and goods do get in through indirect channels, especially routing through various ports (container changes etc etc) and countries around the globe hence making it very difficult for such goods to be tracked. This pushes the prices up a lot as there are a lot of cash-in-hand payments made in the process. There are serious players who do all this channelling work.

Back to topic .... PX4: by professionals the range, accuracy and endurance/torture testing required (as a genuine 92FS has been through hence it is a highly respected pistol warranting a very high price due to very low supply). Until then, in my view, it's just a fancy version of Stoeger with Beretta logo on it and a show off price tag of 350k+. Galaxy S4 and S3 are much better phones than iPhone5 in every department yet iPhone is 25%+ more expensive. Samsung 10.1 Note Tablet is better than current iPad and people continue to buy iPhone5 and iPad even when they are infested with issues that make them inferior products for the price tags, why .... status symbol! Same status syndrome applies to PX4 until it is really tried and tested - even then it wouldn't be worth it's current price tag. No offence to those who own PX4. Zigana T (LEA) is a way sexier pistol, and it is LEA designed to operate full auto and PX4 is not even LEA grade. Price difference ....

Glock17
31-07-2013, 07:32 PM
Dear all,
I maybe a newbie here but my career has seen "actually using" quite a bit of 9mm handguns (most of them purchased out of my own pocket). PX4 is lovely weapon. Like a singer whose every song is not an ultimate hit, same goes for virtually every brand in every category possible out there. Every product has its own pros and cons. Most of the cons are re-worked after post trial usage at the hands of actual real world users. Hand guns are no exception.

Before I proceed further, please check out the following link:
http://www.berettausa.com/products/stoeger-cougar-8000f/

Okay, now, as far as comparison goes, while working "mostly" on the same principals, PX4 and Stoeger Cougar are both different guns aimed at different markets. The Cougar has evolved. Quality control is also dictated by the brand or company responsible for overseeing their original product produced at the hands of a subsidiary company. In this case Beretta (Parent Company) and Stoeger (Subsidiary). Metallurgy DOES matter here (Italian vs Turkish) and while I fully support the fact that Stoeger Cougar passes and meets the stringent quality control tests laid down by Beretta while reducing the price tag just for marketing and sale purpose (blah blah) I can't guarantee if both companies cut few corners in the manufacturing process. Still, in this case, the Cougar must be meeting the standards of Beretta if not exceeding like the PX4. Either way, its your budget and "want vs need" that matters while choosing both which are equally capable guns. Testimony needed? I've owned a PX4 and three S/Cougars. Never, ever encountered a single problem with either. Consistency wise (Not Accuracy which is debatable) both give you best bang for the buck. But one "has to be" slightly better than the other in any category, may it be finishing, mag capacity, accessories, customizable etc. Having said that, the PX4 has been intentionally priced higher to S/Cougar due to advanced design and few improvements. You may also consider this marketing tactics. Like a BMW 7 Series has to outperform BMW 5 Series. Both get the job done but you mostly get what you pay for.

Glock17
31-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Personally? Having owned and used PX4 and S/Cougar both, for an average guy like me in Pakistan, I'd go with the Stoeger Cougar and I know I won't go wrong with it.

BTW, even the Cougar is not in mass service with a law enforcing agency or military. It is meant to be a gun for Defense purpose.

Naseer
31-07-2013, 11:39 PM
Thanks for the info bro Verve. Being PX4 customer I appreciate your analysis. I agree that in Pakistan a comparable Turkish gun should be fine. I came to know that in US the PX4 has been seen in the police Trade-ins. The "blocking device safety" feature may prevent this gun to be favorite in the combat situation and bulkier holster is needed to carry it. I believe in some European countries LEAs would be using Beretta.

Naseer
31-07-2013, 11:45 PM
Personally? Having owned and used PX4 and S/Cougar both, for an average guy like me in Pakistan, I'd go with the Stoeger Cougar and I know I won't go wrong with it.
I used battle-field tested 9mm PHP-MV9 (inspired by Beretta and P38) but for looks it was hard to find Italian touch. Exchanging that gun with Px4 gave me the "rotating barrel accuracy" and competitive edge on German guns on other standards.

Glock17
01-08-2013, 01:05 AM
I used battle-field tested 9mm PHP-MV9 (inspired by Beretta and P38) but for looks it was hard to find Italian touch. Exchanging that gun with Px4 gave me the "rotating barrel accuracy" and competitive edge on German guns on other standards.

Very true! The more you use hand guns, the more the choice becomes clearer and it becomes a matter of personal taste and experience also. Personal taste may include common factors such as brand preference, looks, recoil, grip and affordability etc. I know first time buyers with almost no knowledge of hand guns simply insisting to buy a Glock just because they heard about it in such and such way.

Verve
01-08-2013, 01:14 AM
Naseer and Glock17 bros - I agree with both your comments. If I was in USA then I wouldn't mind spending spending $700 on PX4 (instead of appx $400 for SC - that comes with 4 mags versus 2 mags here) as it is lighter and probably performs as well as Stoeger. But $3,500+ in PK versus 700+ ...

Also, if you look at the 2013 models of Stoegers T6429-13AXXXX) in the market now, the finishing is different and more refined than 2012 and prior models. 2013 models have the brushed type bluing to it versus flat bluing on previous years. Also earlier Stoegers were exactly like the Beretta Cougar with polymer guide rod with different fitment inside, and that was changed to metal along with change in inside (I have both models - polymer and metals guide rods). In my view Stoeger is making improvements as well. It could do with night vision sights :)

saad-dlr
01-08-2013, 09:15 PM
My 2p...


Some or many of you know this already and I won't post the link of the site ... from there you can source any (and I mean ANY) type of weapon and ammo and it is delivered to your doorstep without you doing anything other than paying and opening your door to collect the package, and to any part of the world. But price is minimum 3 times or more (than it would cost in their native manufacturing countries) and these guys only deal in gold as money!!!! And they use state of the art encrypted portal for quotations, orders and payments system.

Sir, is it possible if you can share the link. . . or PM if not munasib to share on the forum.

Glock17
03-08-2013, 03:41 AM
Where are all the Pak Gunners??

Verve
03-08-2013, 03:35 PM
Where are all the Pak Gunners??

Resting ... or 'wapas gaoon gay hoay hai' .... common line here even if gaoon (village) is a big city.

Glock17
05-08-2013, 05:27 PM
Resting ... or 'wapas gaoon gay hoay hai' .... common line here even if gaoon (village) is a big city.
Lolzz +1 +1