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Gilani
24-02-2010, 08:08 PM
RANGE REVIEW - NP22

As most of us already know, NP 22 is a Sig P226 clone exported by Norinco (not manufactured by Norinco).
Itís available in the market in 38 k to 43k. Another Chinese variant of Sig P226 clone is HP 77B which is more or less similar to NP22 except it has slightly more weight. NP22 has an alloy frame and steel slide whereas HP77B has a steel frame & slide.
This is an NIB NP22. Comes in plastic box, grease packed. Includes two magazines.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5462.jpg

NIB uncleaned NP22. Accessories include a cleaning rod, a cleaning pin and two spare springs (slide catch lever spring and trigger bar spring)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5466.jpg

Here are the specs
Model - Norinco NP22
Caliber - 9x19 Para
Barrel Length - 112 mm
Overall Length - 196 mm
Height - 140 mm
Width - 37 mm
Weight w/o mag- 780 gm
Weight with mag- 875 gm
Trigger pull DA - 6-7.5 daN
Trigger pull SA - 2-3 daN

After cleaning, this is how NP22 looked like (much prettier I believe, matching the background :))
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5633.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5639.jpg

NP22 disassembled............ Assembly and disassembly of NP22 is a simple affair, nothing complicated about it. Please note that the barrel of NP22 is not chrome plated from outside, though its chrome plated from inside. The machining and finish of handgun parts is of average quality, rather crude in case of some of the parts. But this is something akin to all Chinese handguns.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5469.jpg

I have so far fired 150 rounds with this NP22 and another above 400 rounds with 3 other NP22s belonging to my friends. Itís a fairly accurate handgun. The pics that you see below are the best fire from this gun. On all other occasions, NP22 could not produce that good a result. Distance, ammo and other details are given on every target sheet. On all occasions, I fired with both hands in standing position. Here are some of the results.......

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5505.jpg

These are the first 20 bullets fired from NIB NP22. The accuracy, as you can see, is pretty ok. Except two bullets, remaining 18 bullets making a group of 5.5 inches. The score was 159/200 (79.5%). One bullet in 10, nine in 9, four in 8, three in 7, two in 6 and one in 3 (which is obviously my fault).

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5536.jpg

Fired 20 bullets in four sets of 5 each. The fire was pretty accurate and I scored 181 / 200 (90.50 %) which is a good score from any handgun.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/DSCN5538.jpg

Fired 40 bullets in eight sets of 5 each. Scored 335/400 (83.75%) which, keeping in mind the number of bullets, is not a bad fire at all. You can see the bullets literally pulverizing the bull and #9 circle. The problem is that I have fired a lot with this handgun afterwards and have never been able to achieve such good results. All other results have been fairly good but nowhere close to these three occasions. (Probably I was in good form that day) :)


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5647.jpg
To check long range accuracy of the handgun, fired 10 bullets from 40 meters. 8 bullets hit the 12.5 inches target, 2 bullets missed the target. Out of 8 bullets, 7 were on the right side and 1 on the left (which was firers fault). Just to check, fired 10 bullets on the same target from Taurus PT99 and it did well, scoring 79/100 from 40 meters (PT99 bullets are encircled in black and NP22 bullets are encircled in red. From long distance, NP22 displayed just reasonable accuracy. You can see it for yourself :)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5653.jpg


Observation
- Not even a single stoppage in 150 rounds. A reliable gun.
- The gun is fairly accurate under normal coditions. However, accuracy is affected at longer ranges.
- Trigger is mediocre, has some play and breaks off inconsistently at times. There is surely room for further improvement.
- Reasonably good grip.
- Broad Glock like night sights.
- Strong frame and rugged body parts. A gun designed to last for a reasonably good time.
- The finish of the gun is ok. There is however room for improvement.
- The magazine is well built and easily slides into the gun (unlike CF 98).
- Not a suitable gun for CC during summers. However, can be carried on person during winters.

Overall, I would rate it as a reliable and fairly accurate gun in this price range. HP77B which is an almost identical handgun from China costs less nowadays and offers almost the same quality (so its a good buy nowadays). If one likes Sig P226 shape and is looking for balance of quality, reliability, accuracy and price, NP22 is one of the better options. The fact that its the official sidearm of Pakistan Army also adds to its valuue. Happy reading. :)

Gilani
24-02-2010, 08:10 PM
COMPARATIVE REVIEW - CZ999 Scorpion vs NP22 vs CF98

The other day I was talking to 12guage, our PakGuns expert. He asked me to compare NP22 and CZ999 as both are absolutely similar looking pistols. And although there is not much of similarity between NP22 and CF98, we thought they also merit a comparison because CF98 is the most popular Chinese handgun on the forum.

Here are the specs, first NP22, than CZ999 Scorpion and CF98 on the extreme right
Model - Norinco NP22 Zastava CZ999 Scorpion CF98
Caliber - 9x19 Para 9x19 para 9x19 para
Barrel Length - 112 mm 108 mm 110 mm
Overall Length - 196 mm 198 mm 190 mm
Height - 140 mm 140 mm 135 mm
Width - 37 mm 34 mm 35 mm
Weight w/o mag- 780 gm 840 gm 670 gm
Weight with mag- 875 gm 934 gm 760 gm
Trigger pull DA - 6-7.5 daN 4.5 daN Not known, but extremely light trigger
Trigger pull SA - 2-3 daN 2 daN

Here are few pics of all three handguns. Please note that CZ999, apart from having a far better finish, has only one lever working as both slide release lever and decocker whereas NP22 has a separate decocker and slide release lever. NP22 has accessory rails whereas CZ999 and CF98 do not have though accessory rail models are available in both handguns. NP22 shown in the pics below is NIB and has fired 150 rounds. CZ999 has fired over 500 rounds and CF98 shown below has fired over 1500 rounds. All have been fired by me.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5490.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5585.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5588.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5580.jpg


The barrels
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5591.jpg
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5589.jpg
Both barrels have similar mechanism. However, CZ999 has a full chrome lined barrel which is known to have a life of 200,000 bullets (one of the highest claimed by any manufacturer for any handgun). NP22 barrel is chromelined only from inside. Please see the quality of machining in CZ999 barrel and the rough edges / crude machining on NP22 barrel.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5595.jpg
CZ999 slide on top, CF99 in the center and NP22 on the bottom. You can distinctly see that all parts in CZ999 are quality machined and constructed to last a long time. The recoil spring is threaded, much stronger than NP22 and CF98 spring. CZ999 slide is 2.5 mm thick whereas slides of both NP22 & CF98 are 2 mm thick. CF98 has a rotating barrel mechanism.

For me personally, reliability, accuracy and ruggedness are three non-compromisable attributes of a handgun. Other attributes like finish and looks etc are of lesser importance and do not really effect the performance of a handgun. A good handgun must ultimately do what it has been designed for, ie, fire accurately with no stoppages and should do it consistently for a long period of time. Lastly, it should be reasonably priced for a common joe. These have been my basic parameter for comparing these guns. Accordingly, I have given more weightage to these aspects.

ACCURACY (20)
A gun must be accurate and if it is not, it does not qualify to be a good handgun, no matter what its finish, quality or bla bla bla capabilities might be. For being consistent and fair in this most important of the tests, I fired sets of 5 rounds from each gun from same distance with same ammo and under same conditions. The aiming point was kept constant for all handguns and no correction were applied to get closer to the bull. The details are given on each target sheet. Here are the results...........

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5543.jpg

Fired 10 rounds each from CZ999 and NP22 in sets of 5 each. CZ999 bullets have been encircled. NP22 scores 76 / 100. CZ999 scores 81 / 100.


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5541.jpg

NP22 bullets have been encircled and is generally firing on the right but the group is ok. NP22 scores 62/100, CZ999 81/100

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5608.jpg
Five bullets each from NP22 (encircled in black), CZ999 (encircled in red) and CF98. CZ999 is generally close to the bull, Np22 is again shooting on the right but making a tight group and CF98 is way over the top. NP22 35/50 (70%), CZ999 45/50 (90%) and CF98 28/50 (56%)

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5604.jpg
Five bullets each from NP22 (encircled in black), CZ999 (encircled in red) and CF98 (not encircled). CZ999 shoots on slight left but is ok, NP22 is on the right again. CF98, three bullets are very good, one is way on the top and the fourth one missed the target completely. These two bullets were fired while I was still aiming and a very slight pressure on the trigger resulted in gun firing. NP22 29/50 (58%), CZ999 39/50 (78%) and CF98 32/50 (64 %)

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5627.jpg
Cant give the scores here because the target does not have standard measurements. However, you can clearly see that Taurus PT99 is the best closely followed by CZ999, NP22 is just ok and CF98 is quite ordinary. Two of the bullets from CF98 went outside the target and were again fired while I was still aiming. Thanks to extra light airgun like trigger of CF98.
Seeing the above results, I rate CZ999 as the most accurate, followed by NP22 and CF98. My grading would be CZ999 16/20, NP22 14/20 and CF98 12/20.


RELIABILITY (20)
I did not experience a single stoppage of any kind in both CZ999 (500+ rounds) and NP22 (125 rounds). In CF98, there have been around 20 failures to feed in 1500+ rounds which is not really alarming but once compared with CZ and NP, CF98 loses. All stoppages in CF98 have been failures to feed and mostly occurred with POF ammo. However, I have been firing the same ammo with other pistols also and hardly ever had any stoppages. I give 20/20 to CZ999, 19/20 to NP22 (only because it has fired less) and 15/20 to CF98.

PRICE (10)
In this department, CF98 wins all hands up. In my view, you can not find a better gun in 28 k. In this department, CZ999 gets 6/10, NP22 7/10 and CF98 9/10.

BALANCE (10)
CZ999 is the most well balanced out of all three, closely followed by NP22. Both have a nice grip and a good feel. CF98 is also quite well balanced but not equal to the other two. I give 7/10 to CZ999, 6.5/10 to NP22 and 6/10 to CF98.

FIELD STRIPPING (10)
Both CZ999 and NP22 have a very simple and quick field stripping procedure. CF98 is a little tricky and one needs to practice its stripping drills to achieve proficiency. Even after practice, I can field strip, clean and reassemble both CZ999 and NP22 in 1/4th of the time what I take for CF98. In this area, I give 9/10 to both NP22 and CZ999 and 7/10 to CF98.


MAGAZINE
A magazine is a very important part of a handgun. A faulty magazine means problems and lack of confidence in the handgun at the time of need. CZ999 and NP22 both have similar looking magazines which are crude in looks but solidly built (all steel) and I have so far not observed any problems with them. CF98, in my view, has very mediocre magazine. In fact that is one part of the gun which in my view needs definite improvement. First of all, it does not slide in smoothly and one has to either wrestle with it or press the magazine release catch to let it go smoothly. Secondly, I feel CF98 magazine has something to do with its FTF problems which I have experienced with all 5 CF98s that I have fired. Another thing about CF98 is that its extremely hard to take out the round if one wants to. Feeding in and feeding out bullets in CF98 mag is quite tough for the fingers :) For magazine CZ999 and NP22 get 8/10 each and CF98 gets 6/10.

TRIGGER
Bad trigger control is one of the major reasons of inaccurate and inconsistent fire and a good trigger helps improving trigger control. Out of all, CZ999 has the best trigger, followed by NP22 which is not bad at all. CF98 has a very light trigger right from the start and after firing 1000-1500 rounds, it gets extremely light, resulting into un-intended discharge at time. Chances of un-intended discharge are far more if one fires CF98 along with other handguns which certainly would have a trigger heavier than CF98. That is perhaps the time one should change the trigger spring of CF98. You can see in the pics also that on many occasions I fired while I was still aiming and had slightly pressed the trigger while firing five bullets each from CZ999, NP22 and CF98 for comparison sake (And I am no novice in firing with CF98, have already fired over 2000 round with 5 different CF98s). In trigger, CZ999 gets 8/10, NP22 gets 7/10 and CF98 5/10.

FINISH AND LOOKS (10)
Though it has no effect on the performance of a handgun, it does have an effect (of varying degrees) on the owner :). In looks and finish, CZ999 simply stands out. In first look, it looks like a top of the line quality handgun. Comparing between CF98 and NP22, IMO, CF98 has better finish and its parts are comparatively better machined / manufactured. In finish and looks, CZ999 gets 9/10, NP22 6/10 and CF98 7/10.

When I total up the points given in various aspects, the total comes to CZ 999 Scorpion getting 83/100, NP22 scores 75.5/100 and CF98 gets 67/100.

So I can say that CZ999 is like VTI Oriel, NP22 is like Toyota XLI and CF98 is like say, Toyota XLI (but 2006 model). :)

All above opinion is based on my experience of firing and handling these handguns and by no means on some scientific laboratory tests. I am now fed up of writing and I am sure you would be fed up of reading, so please overlook if there are still any deficiencies. :)

Happy reading

Mitho
24-02-2010, 08:28 PM
@gilani
sir jee wanted to known that np22 has a extra lever as compared to zastava cz999.
is it an external safety???????????

Gilani
24-02-2010, 08:36 PM
Mitho bro, in NP22 the right most lever / catch is the slide release catch and the one in the middle is decocker. CZ999 has only one lever which does both the jobs. :)

shahzad awan
24-02-2010, 08:40 PM
nice review Gilani cz999 is a very beautiful gun

Sensei
24-02-2010, 09:06 PM
What a fantastic review so nicely explained very appropriate writeup with so beautiful pics what a photography indeed,it is
a kind of real pleasure to see your incredible hard work I must say this is a true contribution to Pakgunners so impressive & so beautiful very very well done brother Gilani http://s3.postimage.org/HUoEJ.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Abbas
24-02-2010, 09:11 PM
Excellent review and photography Gilani sahib ! I enjoyed it very much.

Faheem
24-02-2010, 09:33 PM
Gilani Brother You explained extreamily beautyfully just like a international magzine's standard & first time I have got, wuts the technical differences between CZ999, NP22 & CF98 and agreed 100%.

HasanJamshad
24-02-2010, 09:37 PM
comprehensive comparison, beautiful pictures and interesting guns. kepp it up brother.

Gilani
24-02-2010, 10:02 PM
@Abbas
@Sensei
@shahzad awan
Thanks for the comments Sir :)

Now Faheem's question which has been debated a lot on this forum already, however, still my bit on it.....:)

But one question just for my knowledge, why Chinese army doesn't accept NP 22 as a side arm....
100% correct reply to this question can only be given by Procurment / Induction Department of Chinese Army. :)

However, we can only base our logic on the available data and past practices that various armies in the world have followed to select a sidearm. The criterion drastically differs from a developed country to a developing country. Few points to consider in my personal view:

- For inducting any weapon etc, an army like any other department lays down its set of requirements called user's requirement. For every requirement, a bottom line is set below which a product will not be acceptable. Requirements for a handgun for example may include aspects like accuracy, reliability, ruggedness in field conditions, availability (specially if it is not a locally manufactured weapon), price etc etc. There could be many political reasons / compulsions as well for selecting a particular weapon which we may not discuss here.
- Each one of the above requirements is in fact a limitation. Developed countries normally have resources to overcome all or most of these limitations. For developing countries, it may be more of a compromise.
- Therefore, a weapon selected by an army may not be the best available weapon in the market but the one that provides best balance between various user requirements, some of which are inversely proportional to each other.
- Moreover, NP22 is a copy of Sig P226 and CF98 is a locally manufactured weapon. There may be certain ego issues in inducting a clone as well. There could be many more reasons.

Hence this argument that so and so army has selected so and so weapon as its official side arms so that weapon is top of the line weapon, may not be true in all cases. Certainly that weapon will not be a trash because it does meet the bottom line of all requirements laid down by that army but may not be the best available weapon either. I hope I have not further confused the issue :)

Shariq
24-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Comprehensive comparison, beautiful pictures and interesting guns. Keep it up brother.
+1

Faheem
24-02-2010, 10:27 PM
Gilani brother thanks for your explaination


http://www.pic4ever.com/images/SEVeyesB08_th.gif
http://www.pic4ever.com/images/SEVeyesC08_th.gif

Denovo87
24-02-2010, 10:29 PM
Excellent comparative review Gilani bro, covering all the aspects that make a handgun winner or looser and explained in a very practical way. Write up is one of the best reviews on Pakguns which I thank you for Gilano bro :)

Gilani
24-02-2010, 10:36 PM
@Hassan Jamshed
@Sqnldr_Shariq
@Faheem
@Denovo87
Thanks a lot for the comments :)

Usama
24-02-2010, 10:52 PM
Gilani Sahab, very well and briefly explained review. And above all Chief Sahab has praised it... :) :)

Faisji
24-02-2010, 10:53 PM
One of the best reviews to date.Helped me a long way towards putting CZ999 on my must have list.

Ilyas
24-02-2010, 11:03 PM
A very detailed and interesting review. Fun to read from start to the very end.
Thanks for sharing and cheers for the efforts and the time you put into it :)

Omkhan
25-02-2010, 12:12 AM
May be its just me but I find the magazine of CF98 better than some other double stack magazines that i have seen. In CF98 ones doesnt have to slide the round inside rather then just press them from top which IMO makes reloading faster. However, I agree that a fully loaded magazine of CF98 requires a very hard tap.

Moreover, what model of CF98 do you have.? Its the 1st one that I am seeing w/o rails. Virtually every CF98 that I have seen has accessory rail.

Great & interesting write up. Appreciate your efforts.

Anthrax
25-02-2010, 12:55 AM
Great comparison and review Gilani saab! :) Keep em coming!

Zubair
25-02-2010, 01:39 AM
Excellent contributions to the forum GILLANI Sb.

12GAUGE
25-02-2010, 01:57 AM
Excellent Review Gilani Sb. I really enjoyed reading it. Infact this is probably the best review i've seen written on any forum. the way I see it, it is always easier to say that a particular gun is good or bad, to me it is a useless approach often taken by gun reviewers and gun magazine editors.

the hardest thing to do (what u just did) and probably the most fruitful is the cross comparison between products by keeping their benefits and the associated costs in mind and then giving them appropriate scores on the basis of all major characteristics.

so, in conclusion I would say an excellent job. this comparative review would definitely help members and visitors in making an informed and wise decision while choosing a handgun. keep up the good work.

Regards.

p.s. so a quick benefit-cost ratio analysis would reveal:

CF98 = 67/30 = 2.23
CZ999 = 83.37/46 = 1.81
NP42 = 75.23/42 = 1.79

Conclusion: CF98 = Best Value Buy and CZ999 = second best and NP42 = last of the bunch

Taurus
25-02-2010, 02:04 AM
Excellent Review Gilani, I believe u r taking the best of the handguns as i see u r fond of rugged weapons and quite consistent abt the accuracy and reliablity well keep it up and one thing i would request u to take is the pics of barrel from the the front ..also of cf 98 ,np22 and cz999..i would like to see the thickness of the barrels

DUST
25-02-2010, 02:51 AM
i just have one question brother, where did you get a model with and accessory rails and on how much. i have not seen any yet coz i wanted to have one and could not find it so i had to compromise with the simple version.

by the way a really nice review. keep up the good work. very nicely done, the pictures and the data. much appreciated.

take care
regards
DUST

Muhammad Musharraf
25-02-2010, 03:56 AM
@ Gilani : very interesting review but i really enjoyed the comparison review very informative.
what are the magazine capacity between these the pistols that come with NIB

Gilani
25-02-2010, 07:42 AM
@everyone
Thanks a lot for the comments Sir :) Will post detailed replies and pics in the evening :)

LionHeart
25-02-2010, 09:33 AM
@Gilani Sb:

First of all Many Congrats for the NIB NP22. Mashallah you done a great review and comparison b/w all these 3 handguns which are very common and wildly used by most of our members so reading and watching about their performance and reliability in indeed very useful and interesting as well.

Thanks for sharing this comprehensive review ... Nicely Done Gilani Sb.

regards,

Kamranwali
25-02-2010, 10:56 AM
Hats Off, Gilani Sahib. :)

Skeeter60
25-02-2010, 11:24 AM
Gillani sahab excellant reviews and photography, I learnt about these pistols from your review.
I personally would not touch a pistol which has 20 stoppages in 1500 rds with even a barge pole ( Bairy de wanj ) the military tests of the Beretta vs Sig had a single stoppage in perhaps 3000 rds if I am not wrong that also ammo related.
A reliable pistol should have as few stoppages as possible and 1 or 2 in about 3000 rds is acceptable but nothing more . Of course cleaning after every 300 to 500 rds in between

Starfish
25-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Very nice review Gillani sb. The amount of detail exhibits the effort you have put in. Normally when I am at the range, I really dont care about shooting with the camera :)
Thank you for the detailed review. It was a very interesting read.

Naveed_pk
25-02-2010, 01:09 PM
Excellent comparative review Gilani bro :) .. I really enjoyed rhe pics reading it ... and the pics are awesome ;)

Engineeer
25-02-2010, 03:56 PM
very informative comments

Gilani
25-02-2010, 05:21 PM
@everyone
Thanks a lot for the comments :)

@Omkhan
Its good that you feel comfortable with CF98 magazine but many other people (including myself) find it a little difficult to load and specially unload rounds. Moreover, I have hardly seen a CF98 magazine sliding in smoothly. One has to either apply some force or press the magazine release catch at the time of inserting the magazine. I really feel Cheng Feng need to improve the quality of magazine.
As for the model, I think there is only one model of CF98 available in the market. It comes with or without accessory rails. Are there any other models of CF98 also available? Please do share the information with us. (I hope you are not referring to NP42 and QSZ92?)

@Muhammad Musharraf
Sir, all three pistols come with a 15 round magazine. Just forgot to mention this in the review :)

Gilani
25-02-2010, 05:28 PM
Gillani sahab excellant reviews and photography, I learnt about these pistols from your review.
I personally would not touch a pistol which has 20 stoppages in 1500 rds with even a barge pole ( Bairy de wanj ) the military tests of the Beretta vs Sig had a single stoppage in perhaps 3000 rds if I am not wrong that also ammo related.
A reliable pistol should have as few stoppages as possible and 1 or 2 in about 3000 rds is acceptable but nothing more . Of course cleaning after every 300 to 500 rds in between
Absolutely agreed Sir. And that is one reason that I have stopped carrying CF98. The stoppage problem was more initially, it reduced considerably after firing 300-400 rounds but its still there. After every 100-200 bullets, there is one odd stoppage. And every time the nature of stoppage is same. The bullet is not fed straight into the chamber and resultantly, the slide does not complete its movement and gets jammed. One has to take out the magazine, clear the bullet and then continue. There has however never been any misfire or failure to eject. In my reckoning, it is a magazine flaw. I would welcome any expert views on it :)

Sensei
25-02-2010, 05:41 PM
Sir, all three pistols come with a 15 round magazine. Just forgot to mention this in the review :)

But it does`nt make any difference over all you did a marvelous job indeed you really deserves so many congratulations, and what about the cost ratio of three guns as it is given by our
Guru 12 gauge ?http://s1.postimage.org/S8m0.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Gilani
25-02-2010, 06:46 PM
....... and what about the cost ratio of three guns as it is given by our
Guru 12 gauge ?http://s1.postimage.org/S8m0.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)
First of all, again a wonderful similie.
Second, about the cost comparison, my view on this is, " If I have money, I will go for CZ 999 ten out of ten times. If I am on a budget, I will buy CF98 without a single thought (but if its the only gun I am going to have than I will give it a serious second thought in view of its consistent stoppage problem and trigger). I will however use CF98 for range practice. I am told that NP22 now costs 42 k. If that be the case I will pay a few thousand more and buy CZ999. But if NP22 costs something like 35 or 36 k (HP77B is selling in 31-34 k nowadays) and I cant afford CZ999, I will go for a NP22 ten out of ten times and prefer it over CF98 which costs around 30 k". If the decision is between buying a CF98 or a local clone (costing 20-22 k) or even a Taurus 24/7 (and all other Taurus striker fired pistols), I will always go for a CF98.

This is my personal view on the issue. :)

BaderJanjua
25-02-2010, 07:04 PM
well done, I will be with you tomorrow to give you a pat!

Gilani
25-02-2010, 07:19 PM
That's great. Will have a range session after the office. Please don't forget to bring Baikal, Styer M9 and 92fs. Looking forward to your visit Sir :)

Gilani
25-02-2010, 07:29 PM
@Taurus
Sir, here are the barrel pics of all three pistols :)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5665.jpg
Front view. Left most is CZ999, NP22 center and CF98 on right

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb136/sualeh/Guns/DSCN5667.jpg
Chamber view. CZ999 left, CF98 center and NP22 right.

Sensei
25-02-2010, 07:47 PM
@Gilani brother you are simply the great we are so proud to have a brother member like you what a touch of class really enjoying alots and alots every thing from you lush pics indeed
http://s2.postimage.org/17BzJ.gif (http://www.postimage.org/)

Omkhan
25-02-2010, 08:01 PM
@Gilani
By model I meant the year it was produce. Have a look @ this:
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww259/omkhan_2009/My%20Guns/P7310402.jpg?t=1231768882
You can see that it comes with accessory rail.
Regarding FTF, May be you need to test ur CF 98 with some extra mag. I have fired about 300 rounds without any FTF that I could attribute to this pistol.

Skeeter60
25-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Gillani what you described is a Failure to feed; this could be because of a bad magazine with lips damaged in some way, but then this would cause a very large No of Fs to F, this to my mind is because of a lack of a Feed Ramp on the CF barrel which may be the culprit. In case it has a Ramp on the Frame then polishing it with extremely fine emery could help.
Does the round which is not fed into the chamber get a long oval dent on the case body ? if it does then the magazine spring needs replacement; a weak or over loaded spring is slow to present the next round to the forward moving slide. This a reasonable guess only because we need to see it. Do the stoppages vanish when there are only 5 or 6 rds in the magazine? If the answer is a yes then the mag spring is it.
Never trust a pistol for SD unless you have fired about 3-400 rds through it, this way one finds out any flaws and best of all all moving parts get polished and work better after running in

Sensei
25-02-2010, 08:58 PM
Brother Omkhan plz elaborate is there CF 98 mentioned some where on your gun as I could not see it is there,its not a big deal my friend kindly have a detail look of this link hope things will be clear enjoy :)

www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=75 (http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=75)

Mohammad
25-02-2010, 09:51 PM
excellent review posted +1

Gilani
25-02-2010, 11:14 PM
@Omkhan
Nice looking gun. But I dont see a difference between this CF98 and mine except the colour of slide (I am not sure if it is a stainless steel slide or chromed slide but it looks beautiful). And as I said, the same model comes with accessory rails and also without accessory rails. I chose the one without accessory rails though the one with accessory rails was also available with the same dealer in the same price. What I meant was that presence or absence of an accessory rail does not make it a different model in my view. However, a SS slide surely does.

As for the experience of failures to feed, I have fired over 2000 bullets with 5 different CF98, around 1500 of them have been fired from this CF98 alone that you see in the pics. With all five, I experienced failures to feed though the number was not really alarming. Mostly the failures to feed were with POF ammo though there were a very few with Chinese ammo as well. The same POF ammo I have been firing with other guns like Beretta 92fs, CZ999 Scorpion, Taurus PT99, NP22, HP77B, Llama M82, Walther P38 and never had any problems, in fact not even a single FTF or FTE in well over 1000 bullets. So I cant say that there was a problem with the ammo. The only other guns with which I faced FTF and FTEs with POF ammo were Akdal Ghost and Taurus 24/7. May be there was a problem with the lot of CF98s that I fired !!
regards

Gilani
25-02-2010, 11:37 PM
Gillani what you described is a Failure to feed; this could be because of a bad magazine with lips damaged in some way, but then this would cause a very large No of Fs to F, this to my mind is because of a lack of a Feed Ramp on the CF barrel which may be the culprit. In case it has a Ramp on the Frame then polishing it with extremely fine emery could help.
Does the round which is not fed into the chamber get a long oval dent on the case body ? if it does then the magazine spring needs replacement; a weak or over loaded spring is slow to present the next round to the forward moving slide. This a reasonable guess only because we need to see it. Do the stoppages vanish when there are only 5 or 6 rds in the magazine? If the answer is a yes then the mag spring is it.
Never trust a pistol for SD unless you have fired about 3-400 rds through it, this way one finds out any flaws and best of all all moving parts get polished and work better after running in
Thanks for the comments Sir. Absence of feed ramp on the barrel is an interesting observation. I can, however, see CF98's feed ramp located on the connector seat (it houses the recoil spring guide and recoil spring and also connects with the rotating barrel). Though I am not an expert but as a layman, I can see that feed ramps of NP22 and CZ999 are far better made than CF98.
As for the magazine, I have always suspected that failures to feed in my CF98 have been due to magazine, may it be the magazine lips or the quality of follower spring. This is my guess as a layman. :)

A.Abbas
25-02-2010, 11:52 PM
Very comprehensive and excellent review, thumbs up Gilani Sb. :)

Sami
25-02-2010, 11:58 PM
A.S.A, Simply Marvelous. Your report took us from target groups to the minute details of feed ramp.Appreciate the effort. Allah-Hafiz

Skeeter60
26-02-2010, 12:02 AM
I frankly learnt about these three pistols from your comprehensive and objective review. Please keep up your good work

A.Abbas
26-02-2010, 12:29 AM
The problem with CF98 FTF in my opinion is due to the mag design, I'll try to give the technical detail as much as I learned in a day or 2, I am also working on a new mag design for CF (It may take some time as I am a bit busy for few weeks).

12GAUGE
26-02-2010, 01:14 AM
The problem with CF98 FTF in my opinion is due to the mag design, I'll try to give the technical detail as much as I learned in a day or 2, I am also working on a new mag design for CF (It may take some time as I am a bit busy for few weeks).


the way I've seen it, the problem with CF98's mag is not a faulty design, its basically faulty fabrication. mags provided with my CF98 were also plagued with the FTF incidents however one day while unloading a fully topped up magazine one cartridge at a time, I noticed that the magazine follower got stuck and didn't push the remaining cartridges out of the magazine body when i took out the cartridges very gently (one by one).

so I took the magazine apart and immediately picked up the problems:

1. the magazine follower was poorly fabricated. too many rough edges that resist inside the metal mag body. solution: a dremel tool and grind away all the rough spots.

2. the top backside of the magazine where lips make a "U" type shape, the sheet metal was slightly bent inside. this was typical of a metal sheet which was cut using a punch. this bent side occasionally caught on with the rim of the second/fourth/sixth..... cartridge causing a FTF. solution: grind away the bent edges with a dremel.

now, after these quick 2 min surgeries, the CF98 mags works flawless.


as far as the feed ramp thingy is concerned, i've been saying all along that a two part feed ramp solution employed in CF98 is not ideal. one can clearly see that the two parts (partial feed ramp on barrel and partial feed ramp on connector seat) of the feed ramp do not mate completely, there is some gap between the two.

Solution: assuming there is one, cause removing the "gap" between the barrel feed ramp and connector seat's feed ramp is definitely a difficult task to accomplish. a quick solution would be to take the connector seat to a metal polisher and get it buffed to a mirror shine. however care must be employed as the buffer must be instructed to use a light polishing (not grinding or sanding) wheel and a light polishing compound (more like the final polishing compound that brings out the luster in metal buffing process). we only want to polish it. any harsh surface preparation technique such as grinding or sanding could remove enough metal to make the gap even larger.

Regards.

Dr Zakir
26-02-2010, 01:22 AM
gillani sahib kindly tell me why did u buy np22 when u already have a cz 999 . or u have borrowed one for posting review.

Taurus
26-02-2010, 01:46 AM
Thanx gilani very nice close to know the inside of the barrels ..very very well done

A.Abbas
26-02-2010, 01:51 AM
12gauge, yes you are right, it is follower problem and poor sheet work on the mag, sure the grinding will solve the problem but I think the problem can happen again as the fins on the follower also acts as follower guides and with the increased space around, there is always a chance that it can stuck again .
On the feeding ramp, yes the polishing can ease the problem, if you look at the width of the feeding ramp and mag design, the bullet feeds from both sides (corners) of the ramp not from the ramp centre and slightly tilts inward while in process and bullet on the top of mag just change sides, while in the most other hand guns, the round feeds from the centre and in the mag, the top round always remain center.

I am feeling a bit off topic here and I think we can take the CF discussion to CF98 thread.

Gilani
26-02-2010, 05:13 PM
@12guage and A.Abbas. Thanks for a very useful information. I also had the same hunch but off course, could not establish the fault in such precise detail as you have done. Now we understand that CF98 can any time have a stoppage due to these reasons.
@Dr Zakir, Sir its a gift from someone. Obviously, i could not have a choice :)

@Taurus, you are welcome Sir :)

BaderJanjua
26-02-2010, 06:38 PM
Though I was in a hurry today, I must appreciate your CZ999 and liked its finish. PARA Lahore is still holding on my piece

Gilani
26-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Sir, go get it ASAP :)

Abbas
26-02-2010, 11:52 PM
@Dr Zakir, Sir its a gift from someone. Obviously, i could not have a choice :)


Gilani Sahib, I need to have more friends like yours ;)

Dr Zakir
27-02-2010, 01:18 AM
mee too. must say your friend has a good choice.

DUST
27-02-2010, 05:57 AM
i just have one question brother, where did you get a model with and accessory rails and on how much. i have not seen any yet coz i wanted to have one and could not find it so i had to compromise with the simple version.

by the way a really nice review. keep up the good work. very nicely done, the pictures and the data. much appreciated.

take care
regards
DUST



still waiting for your anser bro. :)

Gilani
27-02-2010, 06:39 PM
Dust bro, it was bought from China, not from any dealer in Pakistan :)

DUST
27-02-2010, 11:21 PM
thank you very much for answering. i was amaized to see this model as i had searched every big dealer in PAKISTAN for this model. anyways, enjoy your toys, its definitely a beautiful gun.

BTW just want to add that all norinco handguns have a chrome lined barrels. as far as i know, and have searched and checked. its strange again why this model does not have one. :/

anyways, take care
regards.

A.Abbas
28-02-2010, 01:57 AM
Galini, I have checked after your review about CF trigger problem, the spare spring come with CF is harder than the installed one, got some time today and replaced it, trigger become a bit stronger but not too much, but the actual performance can only be told after field testing, let you know soon.

Gilani
28-02-2010, 02:23 PM
BTW just want to add that all norinco handguns have a chrome lined barrels. as far as i know, and have searched and checked. its strange again why this model does not have one. :/
regards.

Absolutely right. And I mentioned this in my review as well that surprisingly, this NP22 does not have a chrome lined barrel.




Galini, I have checked after your review about CF trigger problem, the spare spring come with CF is harder than the installed one, got some time today and replaced it, trigger become a bit stronger but not too much, but the actual performance can only be told after field testing, let you know soon.
Great job A.Abbas sahib. I will also get it replaced and check the performance :)

HafizAhmed
11-05-2010, 03:20 PM
gilani bhai , thats a very good comparative review you did up there , can any trigger spring be used on the CF or do i have to order something specially for that , and does the soft trigger pose a threat , i mean will it go off if the gun falls or something .

Gilani
11-05-2010, 04:56 PM
Hafiz sahib, a spare trigger spring comes with the handgun. And a very light trigger can certainly cause an accident. :)

Moeen
11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Salam All,
@ Gilani - Bhai, Well done, +++1 from me.

Gilani
11-05-2010, 05:03 PM
Moeen bhai, thanks a lot. Still waiting for your's, Dr sahib's and 12guage's visit :)

GatlinGun
11-05-2010, 09:37 PM
Perhaps one of the best reviews of our forum. Bravo and Congrats for the insight...and most importantly, for sharing your knowledge with us..

KageFox
11-05-2010, 10:48 PM
@Gilani Sahib: An excellent review and comparison, sir, worthy of GUNS magazine (perhaps even better :D). Someone looking for a gun within the budget range specified by these guns can easily make a decision after reading your superb review. Plus, great photography to accent the review.

A question while on the topic of the NP22: Can the NP22 be outfitted with original SIG parts, provided they are available? Or are the parts of the two guns non-compatible?

The point of my question is simple: buy the Chinese NP22. When time and money allow, replace parts which improve the gun's performance, such as magazines, barrel, trigger assembly, etc. Just an idea, but can this actually work out?

Gilani
11-05-2010, 11:05 PM
GatlinGun, KageFox brothers, thanks for your comments.

As for the compatibility of NP22 with Sig P226, as per my knowledge NP22 is the exact copy of Sig P226 whereas CZ999 is not. It would be worth trying but seeing the pics, construction of inner parts and specifications, it appears to me that most Sig P226 parts should fit in NP22 but not in CZ999. However, unless one tries, nothing can be said for sure. Conversely, almost everything in CZ999 is slightly different from Sig P226 hence not compatible. :)

MIdreesTaj
11-05-2010, 11:37 PM
The only part that could be suspected to fit in NP22 is 226 magazine. Because barrel and slide requires dropping in and fitting respectively. If only the NP22 was CNC copy of 226 which is less likely as differences can be felt by looking at both, this could have been possible.

KageFox
11-05-2010, 11:57 PM
Because barrel and slide requires dropping in and fitting respectively.

Could you please elaborate? Couldn't an expert gunsmith do the fitting part, or is my idea more of a wild goose chase?

MIdreesTaj
12-05-2010, 12:23 AM
Because barrel and slide requires dropping in and fitting respectively.

Could you please elaborate? Couldn't an expert gunsmith do the fitting part, or is my idea more of a wild goose chase?

KageFox bro you think logically and you'll see both pistols are not exact copies of each other. Lets for an example take barrel and its CAM/breech sections are different in structure altogether, the frame inserts will automatically be different due to this. Same with the slide rails and internal dimensions they not exact copies like out of same dye.
An expert gunsmith can drop in a barrel which requires slight milling and re-touch, where barrel is already been made for that particular gun. Subject barrels are different species and cannot be dropped in by a gun smith as far as I have gathered simply by looking at pics of their breeches.

Sparticas
12-05-2010, 12:48 AM
Gr8 reviews, Sir hats off 2 you.....

TT-33
12-05-2010, 09:51 PM
Gelani shb you have written

"CZ999 has a chrome lined barrel which is known to have a life of 200,000 bullets (one of the highest claimed by any manufacturer for any handgun)"

Where they have claimed, can u explain plz & refrence plz?

Gilani
12-05-2010, 10:12 PM
TT-33 bro, as I wrote, its a claim. There is no scientific evidence to prove this argument. Seeing the performance of this barrel however, I have no doubt in saying that it's a very high quality barrel. May see this site

http://www.cz99.org/index.php?page=cz999

Gilani
13-05-2010, 07:20 PM
The only part that could be suspected to fit in NP22 is 226 magazine. Because barrel and slide requires dropping in and fitting respectively. If only the NP22 was CNC copy of 226 which is less likely as differences can be felt by looking at both, this could have been possible.



KageFox bro you think logically and you'll see both pistols are not exact copies of each other. Lets for an example take barrel and its CAM/breech sections are different in structure altogether, the frame inserts will automatically be different due to this. Same with the slide rails and internal dimensions they not exact copies like out of same dye.
An expert gunsmith can drop in a barrel which requires slight milling and re-touch, where barrel is already been made for that particular gun. Subject barrels are different species and cannot be dropped in by a gun smith as far as I have gathered simply by looking at pics of their breeches.

Idrees sahib, are you comparing the barrel and parts of NP22 with Sig P226 or with CZ999?

12GAUGE
13-05-2010, 09:53 PM
AoA Everybody

It is rather easy to think that since NP22 is a Sig clone, one can buy the inexpensive Chinese clone as a base and build a fine pistol using after SIG P226 parts. truth of the matter is that its a pretty long shot if not next to impossible.

here is why:

1. the locking mechanism on both guns is totally different as Norinco modified the locking block to include a portion of the rails as well.

2. drop in barrels are precisely machined and tolerances can cause serious problems if both guns do not come out of same manufacturing plant/machinery

3. SIG P226 has undergone several modifications over the years (not visible to the operator at first glance) whereas NP22 is based on old/early Sig design.

4. importing gun parts (key parts atleast such as barrels and mags) is next to impossible without proper documentation.

5. if one can import SIG parts, surely he has the ability to import the whole gun. so, might as well import a complete SIG.

as far as CZ999 is concerned:

it is not a SIG clone, it merely looks like one. to be honest if you take a closer look, you'll see that even from external appearances there are minor differences that can compromise the whole "dropping in SIG parts" dream. as far as internals go, the similarity they share is like Apples and Oranges.

My humble opinion:

anything that looks like a SIG does not mean that it will function like a SIG. the only benefit to owning a NP22 in my opinion is that it makes CF98 look like a classy high-end handgun.

Regards.

Gilani
13-05-2010, 11:17 PM
+1 12guage sahib on everything except following :)


the only benefit to owning a NP22 in my opinion is that it makes CF98 look like a classy high-end handgun.
Sir, I own both. NP22 is not that bad after all ;)

KageFox
14-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Thanks for the clarification, 12Gauge, sir

hawkseye
14-05-2010, 12:16 PM
I knew 12gauge was being modest when he said he does not know much about handguns :P