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Muhammad Musharraf
29-01-2010, 04:31 AM
AsaLam-O-Alaikum to all

I am Starting a new topic called .380/9x17/9mm short correct me if I have made a mistake in cartridge. If there is already a topic about this please post a link or title of that topic.

A friend of mine asked me to post this topic and ask senior members and experts about a cartridge known as .380 , 9x19 mm or 9mm short. As we were going thought some handguns reviews on Youtube and came across this particular cartridge. And didnít find much information about it other then its 9mm shorten cartridge and is used for self defense I have heard that these make great conceal carry and home defense . So I was curious and posted a topic here I want to know as follow:

1. PERFORMANCE / CAPABILITY
Is it really a good home and self-defense cartridge and how capable is it?

2. AVAILABILITY
Availability of this particular cartridge in Pakistan . Are they easy to get a hold of or are they very rare.

3. Firearms
Which firearms are available for this cartridges . I mean models and companies which are available in Pakistan and if possible price range

4. Drawbacks
Are there any drawback to this ?

In simple words I need a full review I hope I didnít brake any rules and regulation of Pak Guns and looking forward to read good reviews and if possible personal experiences I hope I posted it in the right section coz I am a bit confused about it :P

Basharat
29-01-2010, 11:47 AM
compared to 9mm the 9mm short has lower velocity, less penetration, and does less damage in terms of wound area and volume.

the cartridge is available in Pakistan but is almost double the price of 9mm rounds

the 9mm short firearm that is most popular in Pakistan is the Makarov (both Chinese and Russian are available in the market) prices start at around 35k. There is a 9mm short variant of the Taurus PT111 but i have not seen many available.

Drawbacks are that it is less potent than the 9mm and availability and price of ammo can be an issue.

If this is going to be your primary HD/SD weapon then i advice against it, however i strongly believe every collector should own a Makarov.

Aamar
29-01-2010, 12:56 PM
The Makarov served as the official side arm for a long long time for one the longest standing armies in the world ..... it is small , easy to carry and well balanced and is deadly in trained hands ...... I own one and love it ..... cheers :D

Muhammad Musharraf
29-01-2010, 12:59 PM
@ Basharat: Thank you very much :)
But can anyone explain if its lower velocity, less penetration, smaller firearms how come its so expensive. I thought that maybe local gun manufacture make it because it might be less cost and use normal steels and stuff :P
Sorry if i am changing the subject or lets just say adding to the subject what are 9mm subcompact options available in Pakistan 6 or 7 rounds are enough for HD/SD for a small flat the he lives in

Ahmad
29-01-2010, 01:39 PM
it is qualified as minimum calibre for self defense by many experts. Bullets are not available in market at least in lahore. I have my eyes set on a walther but ammo availability is an issue .
Cheers

Gilani
29-01-2010, 02:21 PM
.380 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .380 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .380 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .380 ACP. 9x18 mm Makarov and .380 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

As for the weapons firing .380 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .380 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .380 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

regards

Gilani
29-01-2010, 02:26 PM
As for the higher costs of .380 ACP, I thinks its all supply and demand issue. Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber and we have much smaller handguns available nowadays in 9x19 mm and even .45 ACP which are much potent calibers. (Glock 26, Berreta PX4 Storm, CZ 2025 Rami, HK 2000 SK, STI Rouge, Taurus 145, Keltec, Kahr models etc etc) :)

Slayerjatt
29-01-2010, 03:48 PM
very well explained gilani sb and i couldn't agree more.

Faisji
29-01-2010, 04:32 PM
Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber


In the 1980s and 1990s, gunwriters penned an almost endless litany of articles declaring the .380 everything from useless to dead - and those were just two of the kinder descriptive terms.

However, at the 2009 SHOT Show, five new small .380 ACP semi-automatic pistols intended for unobtrusive, discreet carry. The guns were the Kahr P380, the Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle, the SIG Sauer P238, the Taurus TCP and the Walther PK380.

Gilani
29-01-2010, 04:40 PM
Very few weapons are nowadays being manufactured in this caliber


In the 1980s and 1990s, gunwriters penned an almost endless litany of articles declaring the .380 everything from useless to dead - and those were just two of the kinder descriptive terms.

However, at the 2009 SHOT Show, five new small .380 ACP semi-automatic pistols intended for unobtrusive, discreet carry. The guns were the Kahr P380, the Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle, the SIG Sauer P238, the Taurus TCP and the Walther PK380.

Very correct Sir. However, there was a far bigger number of compact and subcompact models in 9x19 mm also :)

Faisji
29-01-2010, 04:47 PM
Very correct Sir. However, there was a far bigger number of compact and subcompact models in 9x19 mm also :)

Very true but i am just pointing to fact that far from dying out .380 is a resurgent caliber with major manufacturers investing in R&D and marketing for the caliber.

Gilani
29-01-2010, 04:50 PM
I agree. :)

Faisji
29-01-2010, 04:52 PM
I hope some these weapons make it here.I handled a LCP (carried by UN official here) and that guns a beauty.very manageable recoil and extremely concealable.
The guy was carrying it his shirt pocket.

Gilani
29-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Absolutely right. And same is the case of Keltec and Kahr models. But again, Glock 26 and STI Rouge etc, though slightly bigger in size, are also very well concealable and provide a far potent firepower. I think at the end it boils down to one's personal liking and satisfaction. :)

Ahmad
29-01-2010, 09:13 PM
.38 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .38 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .38 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .38 ACP. Makarov and .38 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

As for the weapons firing .38 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .38 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .38 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

regards
very nicely put sir but you mixed .38 ACP &.380 ACP, both are two very different cartridges. .38 ACP is 9x23 while .380 is 9x17
cheers

Denovo87
29-01-2010, 09:31 PM
Was waiting you since morning Ahmed bro, how a 9mm variant can be discussed without you been a part of it :)

Ahmad
29-01-2010, 09:49 PM
Was waiting you since morning Ahmed bro, how a 9mm variant can be discussed without you been a part of it :)
well denovo bhai, 9 mms are very confusing as there are many of them. so i like all calibers which start with 4.
cheers

Gilani
29-01-2010, 10:04 PM
.38 ACP or 9x17 Browning Short or 9mm Kurz or 9mm Short or 9mm Corto are all names of the same cartridge. It is one of the least potent of all 9mm caliber ammo (there are so many of them). A normal .38 ACP FMJ bullet has an average weight of 6.16 grams and average muzzle velocity of 290 m/s. Bullets weight and muzzle velocities can vary with change in manufacturer and the type of handgun from which the bullet is fired. Just for comparison, a 9x19 mm Parabellum or Lugar has an average bullet weight of 7.45 grams (FMJ) and average velocity of 352 to 427 m/s. (Special ammo like 7N21 and 7N31 have much higher mvs, like 500-600 m/s). Therefore, .38 can be termed as one of the weakest of all 9 mm caliber ammo hence a limited effectiveness for HD/SD. The usefulness of .38 ACP, however, lies in its suitability for use in small size CC handguns.

Makarov fires 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge which is different in size and weight from .38 ACP. Makarov and .38 ammo is therefore NOT interchangeable.

As for the weapons firing .38 ACP, famous ones are Walther PPS/PPk (the legendary 007 pistol), CZ 83 (aval in both .38 ACP and 9mm Makarov), and many other old European small frame handguns. Infact .38 ACP has been quite a popular caliber in Europe sometime back due to suitability for use in CC handguns.

regards
very nicely put sir but you mixed .38 ACP &.380 ACP, both are two very different cartridges. .38 ACP is 9x23 while .380 is 9x17
cheers

Thanks for the correction Ahmad Sir, you are right. I meant .380 ACP, ie, 9x17mm Short and not .38 ACP.:). And accordingly, I have made corrections in my original post.

However, 9x23 mm cartridge that you are mentioning is also not called .38 ACP. There are two variants of 9x23 mm available; one is .38 Super Automatic or 9x23SR, commonly known as .38 Super which was originally developed by Colt for use in Colt M1911 Government Model pistols.
The other one is 9x23 Largo, also called 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. Basically developed in Germany, this cartridge was more commonly used in Spanish made pistols.
regards

Munir
29-01-2010, 10:51 PM
Beretta also made a beautiful pistol in 380 ACP. It was probably called model 83, not sure. I think .380 ACP is the most potent of fixed barrels type pistols.

Ammo is just not available. If it is than please let me know the source as a friend of mine is looking for some as he owns a Beretta in this caliber.

Why opt for it as a SD gun? When compared with a 9mm, there could be two reasons, one its easier to control and the other one I can't really think of! But ofcourse, one must opt for a weapon one feels comfortable and confident with. It produces the best results. If Dirty Harry feels ok with a .44 magnum I personally don't. By all means go for a .380 ACP but do double check the availability of ammo.

Ahmad
29-01-2010, 11:17 PM
@ gilani the dimensions of 38 acp is 9x23 sr,you may check it, to make things more clear or more confusing there is a modern 9x23 which is 9x23 winchester which is entirely different .

Muhammad Musharraf
30-01-2010, 01:11 PM
@ : Gilani Thanks that was realy informative :) but are Glock 26, Berreta PX4 Storm, CZ 2025 Rami, HK 2000 SK, STI Rouge, Taurus 145, Keltec, Kahr models avaiabale in pakistan i mean sure he cant afored glock,Sig and Berreatta models how about the price cheepest and the or somthing in between finest
and Aamar,Ahmad,Faisji,Munir thank you very much

one more thing is there a topic where price and models of CC handguns avaiabale in pakistan are beeing disscused