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12GAUGE
18-11-2009, 02:08 PM
AoA Everybody

I was having a conversation with Moeen Bhai and noticed how much he stressed/liked/preferred handguns that have integrated (and polished) feed ramps for reliable feeding of ammo. The discussion mainly revolved around hollow points and reliability issues associated with them. which can be anything from feeding to reliable/stated expansion.

I was having a conversation with Moeen Bhai and noticed how much he stressed/liked/preferred handguns that have integrated (and polished) feed ramps for reliable feeding of ammo. The discussion mainly revolved around hollow points and reliability issues associated with them. which can be anything from feeding to reliable/stated expansion.

after the discussion, I thought why not check the feed ramp of my CF98 cause some users have complained that hollow points do not feed reliably in them. when I looked at the barrel I noticed that a feed ramp is there but upon closer look I noticed that the feed ramp is not integrated and it not part the barrel. the feed ramp is sorta like built into the connection seat (description as per manual, otherwise called rotating lock). I could clearly see that this type of setup would definately cause some sort of resistance to HP rounds as they are not fully rounded from the tip. any edged bullet would definately get some sort of resistance as the bullet has to ride up the feed ramp and hop over the empty space then into the seperate barrel. if the feed ramp would be integrated it would definately be a one smooth (fluid) motion. but then again, in a rotating lock mechanism u just cant have an integrated feed ramp. so I took the gun apart and placed a HP bullet (courtesy of Dr. Zakir) on the feed ramp (mimicking a round feed) and slowly started pushing it towards the barrel. guess what? I clearly felt resistance as the sharp angle of the HP round would get sorta stuck in the space between the feed ramp and barrel.

went to a friend of mine who also own a CF98 and same thing happened in his gun as well. I guess that settles the argument that only my CF98 is incompatible with HP rounds.

now, after all this I thought of stoeger and upon seeing its pictures on internet I believe that a stoeger would also be incompatible with HP rounds as it also has a very similar design and feed ramp is also not integrated into the barrel. its feed ramp is also built into the rotating lock. the images clearly showed same space between the feed ramp and the barrel. I'm assuming that since everything from the design point looks the same I guess it would also pose similar reliability issues with HP. however stoeger owners/users can confirm on that.

now comming to the main point. what can we do to solve this issue. i'm thinking highly polishing the feed ramp to improve feeding. i'll get back with results as soon as I get that donw. but i'm also thinking that there is nothing I can do with the two piece feed ramp and barrel design. so i'm kinda out of ideas there. HELP ANYONE?

Regards.
Starfish
18-11-2009, 02:56 PM
Sir 12 Gauge: all rotating barrel designs have this problem. the feed ramp can not be a part of the barrel / chamber with rotating barrels.
As far as a solution goes, I am as clueless as anyone else :)
AOA
18-11-2009, 03:12 PM
HMM

Well i got my stoeger two weeks ago..............Iv fired about 80 JHP rounds through them and they have fired perfectly. No FTE or FTF problems.
Personally........I thought almost all new pistols including the cf 98 were compatible with hp rounds.
AK47
18-11-2009, 03:26 PM
HMM

Well i got my stoeger two weeks ago..............Iv fired about 80 JHP rounds through them and they have fired perfectly. No FTE or FTF problems.
Personally........I thought almost all new pistols including the cf 98 were compatible with hp rounds.@ 12 Gauge bro........ You're a really "exploring" fellow of ours! Appreciate your observations, as far as the CF-98 is concerned. But Cougar? No way, buddy, as least as far as mine is concerned. You nay have noticed some physical similarities in there, but my personal experience with JHp's has been satisfactory. Have fired about 30-40 rounds so far, no problems. About clues? Sorry bro, as helpless as you yourself!

@AoA......... Brother, which rounds have you fired amongst those 80? Plz reply.
AOA
18-11-2009, 03:30 PM
@AK-47

sir they are magtech jhp's.
AK47
18-11-2009, 03:34 PM
Thanks AOA bro, I got those too, yet haven't used them so far. Have used the Philipino's, the Armscor ones. They were fine, too. Btw, how many did you fire in a spell? Whole mag? And over how long time have you fired those 80, continous or with intervals?
Aamar
18-11-2009, 03:45 PM
Have shot HP's through my CF98 with ZERO issues :D
12GAUGE
18-11-2009, 04:06 PM
@AK47 and AOA

well, I have absolutely no experience with the Stoeger Cougar so cant be sure on that. all my assumptions are based on the fact that from design perspective, CF98 and Stoeger Cougar are very much alike and both share same features such as a seperate feed ramp and barrel. and guess what? search the internet and u'll find Stoegers plagued with raliability issues whenever other than FMJ rounds are used. even here at PG u'll find some users complaining about the unreliability of CF98 with HP rounds.

i'm not saying that every Stoeger or every CF98 out there will not work with HP rounds. all i'm saying is that the locking design in both handguns is what I would call less than ideal for HP rounds.

anyways, the purpose of this post is not to brand CF98 or Stoeger incompatible with HP rounds. the sole purpose is to first recognize if there is a flaw and second, how to fix it.

Regards.
AOA
18-11-2009, 04:25 PM
@ak-47

Iv used the Philipino HP's, they worked nicely.......I felt tho they left a little bit more residue once fired and the magtech fire alot more smoothly. I used up about 4 mags last weekend and another 3 before that. So there was an interval between both the shooting sessions, but the 4 mags or the 3 mags I used up were kinda continuous. SO that would be about 40 magtech JHPs in one session.
AOA
18-11-2009, 04:29 PM
@12 Gauge
Brother I think you should have your firearm checked out. I know quite a few people who own a cf 98 and they have never had an FTF or FTE problem.
Glocky
18-11-2009, 04:33 PM
I've tried all sorts of JHP ammo from a Stoeger, no problems yet. Cannot comment on the CF98. YMMV
The way i look at it if it ain't broken don't fix it. :)
Mitho
18-11-2009, 04:57 PM
@'12gauge
have fired around 50 serbian jhp through cf98 no issues.
thing is i do feel there is a difference if u chammber a jhp in comparsion fmj.it sitcks a bit but thing is when firing the slide is returning with such a force that its not a issue.but if ur racking the slide it may not chamber properly.its better to use slide release.
12GAUGE
18-11-2009, 04:57 PM
@All

just got the word from my dealer who says that HPs are a big time "MAY BE" with both CF98 and Stoeger cougar. his explaination exactly mirrors my observation. rotating barrel design does not have a good enough feed ramp.

Regards.
Mitho
18-11-2009, 05:27 PM
@12gauge
why dont you try out it urself.trust me cf98 wont give u any problem.
SevenMagnum
18-11-2009, 05:59 PM
@12gauge
Sir if you are not satisfied with CF 98/ STOEGER with hollowpoint feeding. Than do not take risk of carrying HP in both these weapons. I agree in principle with your idea of feed ramp polish and integeral part of the barrel Ass. improves HP feeding.
AOA
18-11-2009, 06:06 PM
True, but theres a reason why the cougar has this forums blessing, its been tried and tested.
CougarMan
18-11-2009, 08:00 PM
never had any issues with my cougars. have tried the armscor and the magtechs and no issues.
AK47
18-11-2009, 08:53 PM
@12 Gauge bro......... I fully understand you do not intend to "label" these guns, and that you're only speaking on this issue from a pure 'theoretical" point of view. Yet, the practical experience amongst forum members, so far, seems positive, at least as far as the Cougar is concerned. I think it would be good if all reporting members, having used HP's in these guns, also do report the brand of ammo they have used. Could be the problem relates to some specific brands. Magtech and Armscor so far seem to be going fine in the Cougar.

As regards internet surfing, well, as you know, facts from there are rather "search-related". Type " mouth ulcer", and you'll end up pretty much convinced beyond any doubts that you have some kind of "mouth cancer", requiring "immediate treatment"! I personally do not care much for net diagnostics! What I do know, however, about the Cougar is that it will not take the HEAVIER loads of HP's easily, like 147grs rounds or rounds which have a +p or +p+ factor added to them. Yet, standard 115grs or 124grs HP's should be swallowed by this gun like any cup of tea! I still value, however, your insight into this matter, and now let's see what more users have to say on this issue. Regards.
12GAUGE
18-11-2009, 10:33 PM
@'12gauge
have fired around 50 serbian jhp through cf98 no issues.
thing is i do feel there is a difference if u chammber a jhp in comparsion fmj.it sitcks a bit but thing is when firing the slide is returning with such a force that its not a issue.but if ur racking the slide it may not chamber properly.its better to use slide release.

ur on to something there my friend. now I'm thinking that may be the force of the returning slide is powerful enough to overcome the feed resistance. if that indeed is the case then we might be able to reduce of chances of feed failure by polishing the feed ramp. its a no brainer. i'm thinking a quick stop to any metal polisher, a little buff and Viola! mirror shine.

Regards.
Omkhan
18-11-2009, 10:55 PM
I believe that there is a small resistance with such designs for FMJs too. I have never used JHPs in my CF98 but I dont think there will be any issues with it.
Mitho
18-11-2009, 11:07 PM
@12gauge
leave the polishing.just let go around 100 rounds and the ramp will be polished.
and for u 12gauge fired 10 serbian jhp's individually loading tham and racking the slide one at a time still no issue.
9mm Luger
19-11-2009, 11:24 AM
courtesy of hamdgunsmag.com remarks for Stoeger cougar

This rotating design keeps the barrel in alignment with the target, potentially creating a more intrinsically accurate firearm. The barrel is throated and the frame relieved so that the chamber will accept a wide variety of bullet styles, reliably keeping feed malfunctions to a minimum.

the whole article is available at http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/cougarb_071807/index1.html

Regards,