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Malik1
03-11-2009, 10:41 PM
I was / am looking for a 3006 and I came across a Savage .300 rifle. I have not come across this caliber earlier and my internet surfing, though updated me, still left many areas unanswered. I request the worthy members for their valuable input pertaining to this particular rifle / ammo. It may be done in comparison to .270, 3007 and 7 mm. Your turn guys :)

Salahuddin Ayubi
03-11-2009, 10:53 PM
This calls for Sir Skeeter's experienced and knowledgeable input.

SevenMagnum
04-11-2009, 10:20 AM
You want a practical hunting & target / plinking rifle in pakistan go for 7mm Mauser, .30-06 springfield, .270 winchester respectively. Keeping in view issue of ammo availability and cost.

Malik1
04-11-2009, 09:20 PM
@ Skeeter 60
Sir. U there. Need your expert advice :)

Abu Al Hawl
04-11-2009, 09:24 PM
Skeeter sahab aj kal beemar hain yar, let him rest at least, please.

Abu Al Hawl
04-11-2009, 09:27 PM
malik bhai kiya maarna hai or kahan marna hai pehlay yeh batao ????

Malik1
05-11-2009, 06:46 AM
Jo mil jaye :)


I am looking at a caliber to have variety of loads like 30 06 (I have always admired this caliber as it has more loads of ammo than any other known caliber) which can help you shooting small antelopes to a medium game like Blue Bull etc. I had almost finalized this caliber once I came across .300 and I got confused

Skeeter60
05-11-2009, 10:00 AM
Malik Sahab sorry I saw your post only just now. Well a 300 Savage is lovely cartridge it was first introduced in 1920. My late father used to be praising it all the time and took all sorts of big game with it.
Actually the .308 Win/7.62 Nato is derived from it. The .308 has only the case neck about 3/16 inches longer all else is the same
We converted one 300 Savage to a.308 by using a reamer (of course a competent gunsmith did it)
It shoots 150 grain bullets to velocities of around 2500 feet.
The ammo availabilty here is limited and it has the same ballistic properties as a 7x57.
Either have it converted to a .308 or go for a 30-06,270 or a 7x57
Best of luck

Skeeter60
05-11-2009, 10:13 AM
Skeeter sahab aj kal beemar hain yar, let him rest at least, please.
Thanx brother I am fighting fit. Some how missed the post of my interest.
Hoiy Takheer to kuch baisay Takheer bhee tha

Malik1
05-11-2009, 06:36 PM
Malik Sahab sorry I saw your post only just now. Well a 300 Savage is lovely cartridge it was first introduced in 1920. My late father used to be praising it all the time and took all sorts of big game with it.
Actually the .308 Win/7.62 Nato is derived from it. The .308 has only the case neck about 3/16 inches longer all else is the same
We converted one 300 Savage to a.308 by using a reamer (of course a competent gunsmith did it)
It shoots 150 grain bullets to velocities of around 2500 feet.
The ammo availabilty here is limited and it has the same ballistic properties as a 7x57.
Either have it converted to a .308 or go for a 30-06,270 or a 7x57
Best of luck
Many thanks sir. I request clarification of one doubt. Is there any difference in the length of cartridge of .308 and .300 or the difference is just in the diameter. Does the chamber also need alteration? Would the bolt also need an alteration? And finally sir, after the reamer has been used how much accurate this weapon would then remain

Skeeter60
06-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Malik Sahab sorry I saw your post only just now. Well a 300 Savage is lovely cartridge it was first introduced in 1920. My late father used to be praising it all the time and took all sorts of big game with it.
Actually the .308 Win/7.62 Nato is derived from it. The .308 has only the case neck about 3/16 inches longer all else is the same
We converted one 300 Savage to a.308 by using a reamer (of course a competent gunsmith did it)
It shoots 150 grain bullets to velocities of around 2500 feet.
The ammo availabilty here is limited and it has the same ballistic properties as a 7x57.
Either have it converted to a .308 or go for a 30-06,270 or a 7x57
Best of luck
Many thanks sir. I request clarification of one doubt. Is there any difference in the length of cartridge of .308 and .300 or the difference is just in the diameter. Does the chamber also need alteration? Would the bolt also need an alteration? And finally sir, after the reamer has been used how much accurate this weapon would then remain

For God's sake there is no difference in the diameter. The case is also virtually the same only the neck length and shoulder angle of the case is different.

Aseel khan of Darra Adam khel has the reamer properly honed under my supervision only in 20 minutes he will make the change. No changes are made to the bolt. The Rifle will be as accurate or more after the change. I will send you his phone number and will call him and tell him that you will be contacting him. Send me an email at <jawedu@hotmail.com>

Skeeter60
07-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Malik Sb and Abul Al Hawl Sb

You seem to have really forgotten the 300 savage

Malik1
07-11-2009, 03:18 PM
Malik Sb and Abul Al Hawl Sb

You seem to have really forgotten the 300 savage


Sir, I am a 30-06 man and honestly I saw .300 it for the first time in my life. My father shot the deers with his 7mm (Churchill) so I didn,t see it in earlier times as you were fortunate to see. However, one of my friend's father would admire this weapon a lot as he shot many deers with it.

Sir, sorry for my ignorance :) , but , I always thought them as two different calibers, because if the caliber is same then why all manufacturers list .300s and .308s separately.

I hope sir, it is not the expression of caliber in "groove to groove" and "land to land" terms which is creating problems for me. Sir I,ve mailed you as well.

Skeeter60
07-11-2009, 04:37 PM
The 300 Savage fires the same bullet as a .308 Win/7.62 Nato/7.62x51, and 30-06 and 300 Win Mag etc etc.
The bullet is the same but the cartridge case (khokha) is different. In all cases the caliber mentioned is the bore dia (opposing Lands) which is .300 in
; and the bullet Dia is .308 ins; the 308 is one of the very few cals known with its bullet dia not the bore dia perhaps because there are so many 300 cals that perhaps this made it easier to differentiate

MIdreesTaj
07-11-2009, 06:39 PM
Nice reminiscing Skeeter sb. http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3015

Well its Winchester who decided it to be known as 308, however military calls it 7.62(.300cal) as per bore dia or weapon caliber.

Skeeter60
07-11-2009, 07:36 PM
Nice reminiscing Skeeter sb. http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3015

Well its Winchester who decided it to be known as 308, however military calls it 7.62(.300cal) as per bore dia or weapon caliber.
MIDREES Sb

Winchester also made the .300 Win Magnum and calls it 300 Magnum although it is also .308, so is the 300 H&H magnum, so is the 30-30, so is the 300 Savage, so is the 300 Weatherby magnum, so is the 30-40 Krag,, so is the 30-06,so is the 30 Win short Magnum.
All above cartridges have bullet dia of .308. It has nothing to do with civil or military nomenclature, also both the mm and inches are precise as decimals of both are used and calibers are given in both systems of measurement.

MIdreesTaj
07-11-2009, 08:07 PM
@Skeeter60, Sir I agree with your point, but my point was: Like .300 Win Mag/.300 WSM/.300 WSSM (all from same manufacturer) denotes the title caliber/Name of the ammo which coincides with that of the weapon(Weapon has it stamped on), why not in the case of .308. Does it not come down to nomenclature as per given to ammo by inventor/manufacturer. Even if there is 1 or 2 occurance of such(.308) type, the whole dealing with Per Inch calculation of caliber loses the scientific logic and comes down to nomenclature. Here 2+2 is not always DEAD 4.
I personally think it goes on and on, i.e when we move from Small arms to Big arms. In artillery the term caliber also relates to the length of the barrel e.g 5 Inch/50 Caliber, which says a 5inch dia shell thrown out of a barrel 50 times of its Dia. that is the barrel length here is 5x50 = 250 inches.

MIdreesTaj
07-11-2009, 08:20 PM
Malik Sb and Abul Al Hawl Sb

You seem to have really forgotten the 300 savage


Sir, I am a 30-06 man and honestly I saw .300 it for the first time in my life. My father shot the deers with his 7mm (Churchill) so I didn,t see it in earlier times as you were fortunate to see. However, one of my friend's father would admire this weapon a lot as he shot many deers with it.

Sir, sorry for my ignorance :) , but , I always thought them as two different calibers, because if the caliber is same then why all manufacturers list .300s and .308s separately.

I hope sir, it is not the expression of caliber in "groove to groove" and "land to land" terms which is creating problems for me. Sir I,ve mailed you as well.

To my understanding, since the projectile are of same caliber, and groove depth is also approximate same for both platforms. 300 Savage rifle only needs what we call Re-Chambering. Rest of the barrel is well approprite for the passage of a .308(actual Dia) bullet.

Malik1
07-11-2009, 08:20 PM
@Skeeter60
Got it sir but does it mean that the chamber of all these rifles can not accommodate each others cartridges despite the fact that their calibers are same (which ever way they are expressed) and it also implies that ammo of 30-06 can not be fired from the others and vice versa (I am talking of complete cartridge which is first to be accommodated in magazine, then in chamber and then fired).

Now if that be the case sir, then how come the alteration in barrel only makes a .300 to .308. It essentially requires alteration in chamber also to accommodate the complete cartridge (as you said that projectile is same the difference is in the cartridge case). Hope I,m not proving to be a bad student sir :)

Nabeel
07-11-2009, 08:27 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/riflelist3.htm

MIdreesTaj
07-11-2009, 08:37 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/riflelist3.htm

great caliber chart Nabeel. Btw it states that .300 Savage has .311 bullet dia. That means a 300 Savage barrel must have groove depth of .011 inches. Hence the idea of re-chambering ONLY sounds good. .308 will easily be passed through this barrel.

Skeeter sb. please help. Would this not entail to a weak gas seal behind the bullet?

Malik1
07-11-2009, 09:43 PM
@midreestaj
Bro, I didn,t see .300 Savage having a bullet dia of .311, rather all .300 had .308 as dia of bullet. You may like to see the table again. .311 was for .303 only. It is only the length of cartridge case which varies for these two calibers. In case of .300 Savage it is 1.87inches while for .308 (NATO 7.62) it is 2.02 inches. This supports your and mine point of altering the chamber to accommodate the other cartridge

Malik1
07-11-2009, 10:03 PM
An Interesting Article about Military 7.62 and .308

7.62x51mm NATO or 308 Winchester? What's the Difference?

copyright 2001 - Stephen Redgwell

Military surplus cases

Do you have a military surplus rifle chambered in 7.62 x 51mm? If so, you probably bought it to get a "308 Winchester" at a really low price. Well, you messed up. It's like looking at a rabbit and a hare. They're close, but each is distinctive, and you have to understand what you're looking at.

Early in my military career, I worked on the FNC1 rifle (7.62 NATO). For someone that had only handled civilian shotguns and rifles, this was going to be a real treat! It was only natural that curiosity would generate questions and comparisons about what I thought was the same cartridge - 308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm NATO.

One of my personal rifles was a Midland 2100 chambered for 308 Winchester. It was made in England by a small company - Midland Rifle Co - but owned by Parker Hale. Since there was a lot of military 7.62x51mm available, I shot them from my 2100 from time to time. There was never a problem chambering or firing the military stuff. It was a pleasant diversion over the long (read boring) periods spent at the range for base small arms qualifications.

Around this time, I discovered that shooting reloaded cases fired from an FN was virtually impossible. They didn't want to chamber. My frustration led me to ask an older armourer what was wrong. In a nutshell, he told me that they probably didn't fit because they stretched. I was using a Lee Loader in 308 Winchester and didn't know that they only resized the neck, leaving the rest of the case untouched. The shoulders were blown forward on initial firing, so the case was simply too long to fit my rifle's chamber! Hmmm...

I tried the gauges from work in my own rifle and was surprised to discover that none of them would fit! The corporal brought a set in from home and explained the difference. Here's what I discovered.

308 Winchester (SAAMI) Gauges

GO - 1.6300"
NOGO - 1.6340"
FIELD - 1.6380"
Shop (Military) Gauges

GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6455"

Rest of the Article at

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

Skeeter60
08-11-2009, 06:45 PM
Malik Sb
As you are already aware the difference in the case length is 2.015 ins or 51.18 mm vs 1.871 ins or 47.52mm of the Savage. The difference is about 3mm and lengthening the chamber accomodates the .308 properly the magazine etc does not have to be touched as there are built in lee ways to accomodate longer bullets. Go ahead and do it .It is a recognised practice. It does not mean you can convert other calibers these two are regularly done.

Malik1
09-11-2009, 01:20 AM
Many thanks sir

Denovo87
09-11-2009, 09:07 AM
Many thanks sir

I dont think thanks is enough, you are going to take a test tomorrow, its never been a pleasant scene to see a MURGHA in the classroom so prepare yourself well ;) am I right sir Skeeter ?