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View Full Version : torch/laser for pistols without rail



Topak
25-10-2009, 01:46 PM
hi all,
can i install laser and torch to my kanuni S pistol which is without rails...
is it possible ?
if yes any idea about prices ,brands and availability....

Nabeel
25-10-2009, 04:12 PM
Its possible only for laser. I dont think you can install Tactical Light without rails

Lasermax Guide Rod Laser

http://www.internetguncatalog.com/igc/pics/Large/40036.jpg

KageFox
25-10-2009, 04:55 PM
The laser-in-guide rod and the Crimson Trace laser grip are two methods for getting a laser without a rail. Though I doubt that either is available for the Kanuni.

AK47
25-10-2009, 10:58 PM
Buddy, as KF writes, both Lasermax and Crimson Trace not available for the Kanuni model. Acc to my knowledge, they are still not available for the popular cougar even! Second, non of these two would be available to you here in less than around $300! Don't think it feasible on a sub 50k gun. Perhaps a Universal trigger- guard laser mount would be a cheaper option, with the laser mounted in front of the trigger-guard. However, don't think it a solid connection, capable of holding the set Zero adjustment of the laser. Yet, can't say, haven't tested it. Better go for a railed gun next time, I have the same problem with my Cougar! Hope Ed's "special T-model" arrives soon!

Topak
26-10-2009, 09:24 AM
ok can we any gunsmith make rails on the pistol...is it possible and feasible,any experience with it.... pistol with rails are out of my range and most of them with poly frame which i dont like.
any help ? ? ? :/

Abu Al Hawl
26-10-2009, 09:40 AM
Topak, rails and frames are made accordingly, making rail on a plan frame is a JOGARD which wil not work in terms of accuracy of the laser pointer hence you will not get the laser for your rail because that would not be a standard sized rail.

Enigmatic Desires
26-10-2009, 04:17 PM
Buddy, as KF writes, both Lasermax and Crimson Trace not available for the Kanuni model. Acc to my knowledge, they are still not available for the popular cougar even! Second, non of these two would be available to you here in less than around $300! Don't think it feasible on a sub 50k gun. Perhaps a Universal trigger- guard laser mount would be a cheaper option, with the laser mounted in front of the trigger-guard. However, don't think it a solid connection, capable of holding the set Zero adjustment of the laser. Yet, can't say, haven't tested it. Better go for a railed gun next time, I have the same problem with my Cougar! Hope Ed's "special T-model" arrives soon!


I have seen the trigger guard type chinese lasers.. Forget zero if the darn things even stay on after a shootin session count yourself lucky.. I know of at least 1 user whose cz999 ditched its laser after the 1st rapid fire 20 shot salvo..

God alone knows how they carry their zeros.

Hence my wait for the "T" model Cougher

KageFox
26-10-2009, 04:51 PM
I have seen the trigger guard type chinese lasers.. Forget zero if the darn things even stay on after a shootin session count yourself lucky..


Didn't realize that they were that bad... but then, what would you expect from something without a stable platform to hold it in place....

Enigmatic Desires
27-10-2009, 12:15 AM
Not to mention the fact that they scratch and decrease the value of hte weapon when U try to resell it

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 09:15 AM
ok can we any gunsmith make rails on the pistol...is it possible and feasible,any experience with it.... pistol with rails are out of my range and most of them with poly frame which i dont like.
any help ? ? ? :/


Buddy attaching picatinny rails on handguns is the "IN" thing these days and westerners are almost attaching the rails on to everything even remotely considered a weapon. u can get picatinny rail blanks and cut them to ur size, attach it to the underbody of ur handgun, drill and tap. thats it.

sorta like this:

http://www.combathunting.com/GUNSMITHING_TOOLS-WEAVER_PICATINNY_RAIL_BLANK_12_X_0_31.html

Regards.

Glocky
27-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Yes thats a good idea if Rails are your thing, it would look a little weird but be perfectly usable. The picatanny rails are available in various sizes in khi. Do find yourself a good gunsmith who can do a clean job with the drilling and taping, otherwise you'll ruin a perfectly good looking gun.

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Glock its not a gunsmith's job, its a lathe machinist job

Topak
27-10-2009, 11:01 AM
thanks 12 G for workable idea...no doubt you are going to be good pistol expert too..
thanks for calling,i am much obliged with your nice gestures..

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 11:18 AM
Glock its not a gunsmith's job, its a lathe machinist job


+1 bro. I absolutely agree that a machinist would be more appropriate for this kinda job.

Regards.

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 11:20 AM
The picatanny rails are available in various sizes in khi.

dude, help us out here. where? and how much? and what do u mean by various sizes? do u mean length?

Regards.

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 11:27 AM
but again, who would allow the machinist to squeeze our beloved pistols into the jaws of a lathe, well i will never, but on a local clone worth 8k could experiment this

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 11:39 AM
but again, who would allow the machinist to squeeze our beloved pistols into the jaws of a lathe, well i will never, but on a local clone worth 8k could experiment this


bro, we dont need a lathe machine here. what we need is a vertical drill machine with a wise not a chuck. and believe me this job is not that big of deal. any machinist can do it.

proceedure as per my little knowledge:

1. position and cut the rail to desired length
2. mark the dilling points with a carbide bit, the bit will make a small dent on the metal surface so that the actuall drill bit doent slip while drilling
3. position the point on the wise, covering all metal surface with paper masking tape to prevent any scratches. also tape the area that comes into direct contact with the wise. wise doesnt necessarily scratch but it can.
4. while drilling put a few drops of hydrolic oil/light machine oil onto the drilling point. u dont want heat to damage nearby bluing.
5. then its just plain on taping (rivoting), remember flat head. if not then the rivots round heads need to me machined/ground flat.

Regards.

Glocky
27-10-2009, 11:47 AM
I would rather trust a machinist than a gunsmith for this in Pakistan, the machinist will be more precise in his work due to his experience in similar jobs.

The rails i have seen are similar to the following ones, don't know the prices but can check on my next visit. They were available with Tayabally in Khi

http://www.centuriontactical.com/images/short-rail.jpg
http://www.centuriontactical.com/images/long-rail.jpg

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 11:51 AM
The rails i have seen are similar to the following ones, don't know the prices but can check on my next visit. They were available with Tayabally in Khi



Thanks bro, I really appreciate this cause i'm seriously considering doing this:

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo309/connor9000/Doubledefensepicatinnyrails.jpg

HOW COOL IS THAT?

Regards.

Glocky
27-10-2009, 11:53 AM
i like it :)
better start looking for good mounts as well, equally difficult to find

Naveed_pk
27-10-2009, 11:56 AM
The rails i have seen are similar to the following ones, don't know the prices but can check on my next visit. They were available with Tayabally in Khi



Thanks bro, I really appreciate this cause i'm seriously considering doing this:

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo309/connor9000/Doubledefensepicatinnyrails.jpg

HOW COOL IS THAT?

Regards.


These mounts we saw yesterday...at Qadri traders...

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 12:24 PM
but again, who would allow the machinist to squeeze our beloved pistols into the jaws of a lathe, well i will never, but on a local clone worth 8k could experiment this


bro, we dont need a lathe machine here. what we need is a vertical drill machine with a wise not a chuck. and believe me this job is not that big of deal. any machinist can do it.

proceedure as per my little knowledge:

1. position and cut the rail to desired length
2. mark the dilling points with a carbide bit, the bit will make a small dent on the metal surface so that the actuall drill bit doent slip while drilling
3. position the point on the wise, covering all metal surface with paper masking tape to prevent any scratches. also tape the area that comes into direct contact with the wise. wise doesnt necessarily scratch but it can.
4. while drilling put a few drops of hydrolic oil/light machine oil onto the drilling point. u dont want heat to damage nearby bluing.
5. then its just plain on taping (rivoting), remember flat head. if not then the rivots round heads need to me machined/ground flat.

Regards.

12g bro, sorry i dont agree with you, over here we are talking about milling slits on both sides of pistol frame, and my bad i quoted lathe machine above the correct instrument is a milling machine.

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 12:35 PM
12g bro, sorry i dont agree with you, over here we are talking about milling slits on both sides of pistol frame, and my bad i quoted lathe machine above the correct instrument is a milling machine.


hmm..... a milling machine might work but its like unnecessarily complicating an otherwise a very job. besides, why would u need a milling machines? we are not talking about milling a groove onto the sides of handgun frame for the rail to fit.

although I must say if that is ur reason then it would definately look very cool. we can use a milling machine and make a reverse groove in the underbelly of rail instead of handgun and mate it with the frame.

but then again, we are talking about an aluminum picatinny rail which I believe would be like sacrificing the strength if we mill a coutour/groove onto it. I would recommend a simple dill and tap operation. its alot easier, anybody can do it and vertical drill machines are almost available at every machine shop. milling machines are not available with every machinist.

Regards.

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 12:43 PM
12g, but those after market rail i dont think so meant for a pistol becasue front bottom of frame of a non-railed pistol is always round so how can one be 100% precise to align the rail

Topak
27-10-2009, 01:29 PM
12g, but those after market rail i dont think so meant for a pistol becasue front bottom of frame of a non-railed pistol is always round so how can one be 100% precise to align the rail
nice question..
+1

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 03:00 PM
12g, but those after market rail i dont think so meant for a pistol becasue front bottom of frame of a non-railed pistol is always round so how can one be 100% precise to align the rail


first of all, picatinny rails are never meant to be 100% aligned. why? cause most picatinny mounted devices are supplied with zero setting options and that option is precisely there for the very same reason that even company manufacturered picatinny rails are never 100% aligned.

now comming to the question about the round contour of pistol frame. well, getting this question from a guy who just recommended a milling machines is mind bogling to me. dude, did u even consider to stop and think about the actual function of a milling machine before u recommended it for this kinda job. dont tell me? u thought milling machine is for drilling a hole? ;)

ok! it could be that u wanted to mill grooves/slits onto the sides of the pistol frame but I would never recommend it cause u know, why temper with the frame design as it would lower the resale value considerably. second, we have to consider the wall thickness too, if the wall thickness it not much then this way we might endup in severely compromising the structural integrity of the frame, something i'm not comfortable with. u know as Moeen Bhai once said, the best solution to customize a firearm is to customize the accessory to fit the firearm not the other way around.

anyways, here we precisely need a milling machine to carve out a groove (or call it a channel for ease of understanding). the round bottom side of the pistol frame will ride inside the channel carved inside the bottom of picatinny rail for a snuggly fit. remember! this is why I appreciated earlier ur idea of a milling machine.

however I feel that this step though will enhance looks and make the job look alot professional and will add some stability to the whole structure, is redundant and hence not required here.

why? cause we are talking about picatinny rail length of not more than 2 inches therefore such extreme measures are not required. just cut to length, drill and tap that should be sufficient (i'm assuming two drills/taps).

Regards.

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 03:22 PM
12g, pls read my posts above i have never ever advised to drill a hole in a pistol or use a vertical drill sir it was you, and since begining i am advising to use a lathe machine and then i apologized and made a correction to use milling machine to cut a channel for laser (a milling machine is more versatile than a standard lathe machine (well sir now you have to give an example where did you see your type of DRILLS & TAPS technology to fix a rail and the pistol was ready to carry a laser on it and which make of pistol was that ??

12GAUGE
27-10-2009, 03:45 PM
to use milling machine to cut a channel for laser

bro, thats why i'm saying that cutting a channel (groove/slit) in the pistol frame would severely compromise the structural integrity of the pistol. thats why i'm recommending drilling and tapping. a vertical drill press is perfect for that sorta job.


a milling machine is more versatile than a standard lathe machine

correction! u can drill with a lathe, u can mill with a lathe but can u lathe with a mill or drill with a mill. so.... which one do u think is more versatile. anyways, in actuality both are totally different machines and from versatility standpoint lathe machine is prefered but if u want a master milling job then it has to be done with a dedicated milling machine (hori or veri)



well sir now you have to give an example where did you see your type of DRILLS & TAPS technology to fix a rail and the pistol was ready to carry a laser on it and which make of pistol was that ??

for that u'll have to wait as me and Moeen bhai are thinking of totally customizing a piece. and displaying pictures of it without getting it finished (nickle plate) would be cruelty to the project. so u'll have to wait for the pictures. and yes! its electroless nickle plating. yea! baby yea!

and about how to attach the rail, well, its pretty simple, (singing the same song over and over here) cut the rail to length, attach, mark, drill and tap. now attach the laser to the rail. lasers are provided with mounts that grip onto the curved edge of the picatinny rail. its that simple. no rocket science here.

Regards.

Abu Al Hawl
27-10-2009, 04:02 PM
12g i'll wait for your prototype

Topak
28-10-2009, 03:21 PM
yes waiting for 12g project....then i will make my move

KageFox
28-10-2009, 04:09 PM
Mr 12Gauge sure is a cool innovator of many interesting projects... Looking forward to this one....

Wajahat
28-10-2009, 05:20 PM
yaar i had a Cz999 scorpion mounted with a universal laser, the laser fell off, when i tried firing a salvo of 15 , and the gun's body was damaged due to the fact the universal grip has screws to hold on to the trigger guard, i will not recommend this to any one, who has a gun without the rails