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a_k
29-09-2009, 11:06 AM
While surfing the internet got across this article, plz read it

http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/19/letted.htm#5



Regards
Abdullah

Basharat
29-09-2009, 11:46 AM
a_k,

the type of weapon used by a security guard should be determined by what type of duty he is doing. for example a personal body guard who is operating in a urban/confined setting would be most effective with a handgun.

Shotguns are typically used because without much training, the user will probably be able to hit targets at close to intermediate range, due to the "spreading" effect of the shot. However in confined space this could prove dangerous to bystanders.

I have also seen situations where guards at sniper positions at some of the hotels in Pakistan are armed with shotguns with short barrels.

The problem with most Pakistani security companies and their guards is the lack of training and the lack of reliable weapons. I have seen several security guards with weapons that simply do not work.

I strongly feel that security companies should be regulated and their training set ups closely monitored. my recommendation to people and companies using private security companies is to be very particular about the personnel they assign to you with regards to their background, training, etc. and that you insist on regular testing and maintenance of the weapons issued to them.

Security in this day and age is a serious issue and must not be take lightly. if your paying for a service that you expect will protect your life then by proactive and insist on the best trained people with the best available weapons for your needs.

MHMalik
29-09-2009, 12:31 PM
What the author fails to realize is the fact that rifle projectiles are much more dangerous at the hands of untrained security guards. A shotgun blast while lethal at close ranges, loses most of its energy at a short range. A .222 (5.45) is no joke compared to a 12 gauge.

Yes IF they are rigorously trained and made to qualify in shooting say every three months in order to keep their jobs, then I suppose I can agree to the idea of them keeping rifles. Otherwise, a shotgun is most probably a safer bet in their hands with their current level of training.

KageFox
29-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Simply speaking, weapons in untrained hands are a major liability... be it handgun, shotgun, rifle or anything else for that matter.

Enigmatic Desires
29-09-2009, 02:34 PM
+1 KF.. How ever I read in dawn htat the security companies have asked the sindh goverment to get em decent guns since htey are out gunned by BGs.. and as such the PG has asked hte Fed govt. to allow em to procure some 80000 PB weapons.. these will be handed over to the sec companies while the govt will monitor their training.

Malik1
29-09-2009, 05:19 PM
What KF has said is agreed upon, however, shotguns are meant for close quarter battle, hence using them for long ranges as anticipated by author of the article does not go by their role. Similarly, using rifles, as suggested by author, for close quarter battle also does not make sense. In cities a threat is only recognized once it shows up, implying that long range weapons are not effective. Take an example of bank. Thousands of people walk in the bank with no intention written on their face and they are from all walks of life. BGs only show up the weapons once they are inside and a shotgun at that range is deadly for the BGs, provided it is in safe hands. Else another story of collateral damage

a_k
30-09-2009, 05:30 PM
so comes down to trained hands as well as reliable weapon, how many times we have heard that Security Personal died or hurt from accidental fire of his own weapon,

Further, have you ppl noticed that when giving hiring advertisment, it is written that "priority will be given to those having own licienced weapon"

KageFox
30-09-2009, 06:21 PM
If personnel are well-trained, the best CQB would be PB sub-gun PB. Even with a pump-shotgun, it will be pretty hard to face multiple, usually heavily armed assailants (keeping banks in mind) at uncomfortably close ranges.

MIdreesTaj
30-09-2009, 10:02 PM
@KF sub guns inside a bank building.. well... might be good but not as good as trained crew on assault/tactical shotguns..

KageFox
30-09-2009, 10:57 PM
Provided that there are multiple guards, armed with shotguns which actually work. A few months ago, the people in my street hired a couple of security guards for night-time duty. Apart from regularly falling asleep, it was also noted that their weapons (apparently pump-actions) were little more than hockey sticks.

Whichever way you see it, training is a must, as untrained personnel are more of a disadvantage then none at all...

a_k
28-04-2010, 01:18 PM
Reviving Old topic bcoz of actual incident,
some two weeks ago, I saw pump action actually went off by security guard of "Ashiana" shopping center (beside The Forum, clifton) he was standing in Ashiana opposite to Forum entry gate, he thought only one cartridge was in, he ejected it and fired as test, another cartridge which he was not aware of fired !

boy giving parking tokens, another security guard were hit directly n still recovering, a charade took full impact with all window broken, few pellets bounced off and hit one of my colleague but nothing serious, police came took security guard into custody, etc etc,

Poor training or no training and poor local made weapon was the cause.

Salahuddin Ayubi
28-04-2010, 01:40 PM
Thanks for sharing.

Saw a security guard at Abbasi Shaheed Hospital's Trauma Center doing almost the same thing this morning with the barrel pointed at an ambulance parked hardly 10 meters away with patient and driver in it. Dryfired without cheching the chamber. Had a five minute chat with him. In the end he was like, Sir aap theek keh rahay hain, ainda aur khyal karoonga.

Vik
30-04-2010, 06:08 AM
SA bhi, app armed guard ke baat kar rahee. Let me tell you about an arms dealer. To make
a sale he put a round in the chamber decocked It and pointed towards his relative and pulled
the trigger. And said see It works.

Second thing is police in mobile they always keep the AK pointed towards the cars. Not by choice but by ignorance.

Salahuddin Ayubi
30-04-2010, 09:26 AM
Quite right vik.

Nazim Sahib
04-05-2010, 12:03 AM
Shotguns are perfect for people who dont train often....anyone can hit a target with one and also incase of panic u cant miss.....so i would prefer a security guard armed with one...

psychiatrist-1
04-05-2010, 08:13 AM
Nazim Sb:
Yes, I agree.
Shot guns are nasty weapons from close range. Click Klash of pump scares the crap of out any intruder. I understand that shot guns were banned in combats by Geneva Convention because a gun shot wound resulting from a shot gun is difficult to manage and I have nít seen many who survived and fully recovered. It is slow agonizing death that I have witnessed it.

psychiatrist-1
04-05-2010, 08:18 AM
SA Bhi:
What is LG and SG stands for shot gun shells? I know they are 5 or 8 shot pallets first intorduced by British
factory Eley Kinoch ( Eli Knuck).

Omkhan
04-05-2010, 09:53 AM
SG here is equal to 00 Buck containing 9 pellets where as LG=000 Buck containing 8 pellets.

PUNJTANI5
24-06-2010, 11:52 AM
if u arm the guards with shots guns make sure they have #6 shot or more like 7,8, 9 etc
even #4 shot for them is dangerous

shot gun should be single/ double barrel only
if repeater/ pumpaction there must be a butt

if u arm, them with rifles the bullets will travel miles and in congested areas will break at least 5 or 6 walls before stopping . during nazi germany soldiers used to make 7 people (jews) in line and kill them with one rifle bullet 2 save on ammo .

so if u arm them with pistols make sure it is either 32 bore or 22 bore other rounds r too hot 4 them

the best way is to arm them with revolvers with wadcutter round either .32 or 38 as per availability as wad cutter is of lesss power and does not exit its victim

and make sur the guards r not armed with more than 6 bullets and in case of revs only one chamber full that is all .

i have armed my guards with .32 local made revolvers with wadcutter rounds
and one has a dbbl shotgun with only 6 rounds that also in the sling not loaded and he is placed on the roof .

PUNJTANI5
11-07-2010, 07:00 PM
has anyone followed the advise ??????

bazkhan35
11-07-2010, 07:20 PM
no offence brother but crossing 5-6 walls,shooting 7 people with one bullet ?? it seems a bit too much, is it not ??

PUNJTANI5
11-07-2010, 11:43 PM
killing jews in the manner i described is in history

6 walls (actually 5 and a half) is seen by my eyes done with my own hands
using black tipped oxo grerman rounds in an 8mm rifle 5 yrs ago
and some furniture was also in the way
it is horrible seen and i still shudder by the thought

luckily no one was in home that day except me that was why i shot at the wall

PUNJTANI5
11-07-2010, 11:53 PM
shot from a distance of 50 ft the 7.62x39mm round can penetrate two cement blocks and still continue its voyage to some distance

source discovery channel

bazkhan35
12-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Brother you have much much more knowledge then me so please dont mind my silly questions or remarks.

In my house we normally use 6 " blocks with inside and ouside wall plaster it comes 7" wall so five walls means 35".

The area in which my house is we had troubles so many time there are more or less 50-70 firing shots on our main wall (got it repaired now) never ever a bullet crossed our main wall.

But in experience you are much more then me so I have to agree with you :) .

PUNJTANI5
24-07-2010, 06:35 PM
the round i am talking about is armoured piercing round which has a hard steel core
i came to know about that a little while ago

then also these were german original rounds
when i fired it i did not knew it was ap and such rounds r still available without any body having any knowledge of what type of rounds they r
even grey tipped tracers r available in the same lot 4 same price
all u have to do is know about which marking denotes what

the local made soft lead rounds r less lethal but they still can penetrate two (02) walls

i once fired a 9mm local round on a cement=brick block and the bullet flattened on impact like a coin but when a wolf (serbian/russian) round was shot it penetrated the block half way in and broken it
the bullet was still intact

Rasal.Saleh
24-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Well IMHO shotguns are effective only if in the hands of competent individuals,
Despite popular belief the spread of the pellets after leaving the barrel increases around one inch after one meter ( the figures are approximate as a lot depends on barrel length chocks and cartridges used) but keeping the rough estimate in mind in a CQB situation a threat would materialise at maximum 5 meters that is around 15 feet the spread of the pellets would be around 5 inches and if wrongly aimed could actually cause collatrel damage but if rightly aimed at the threats "critical mass" ( abdominal reigon) it would have enough force to stop a man.
At the same time to aim true the weapon has to be shouldered and the target sighted without that the chance of collatrel damage increases....

In another incident
A guard shot off his own foot, by resting the gun muzzledown on his foot and then lifting with his hand on the trigger the poor man can barely walk even now after about 6 months...

Thus The competency of the Guard is more important than the gun
An untrained guard is a liabillity a danger to self and others..

regards