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Ka_Khan
07-09-2009, 09:01 PM
In the Lahore Range Shooting....
One thing you will note in the pics,which i noticed many times and have seen live at the Karachi Range....Abbas has a different style to shoot the Handguns :)
Slightly bent towards his right.As most of the people try it straight,he has unique posture.I think this could improve our results.What you say?the style of shooting helps?

MIdreesTaj
07-09-2009, 09:14 PM
I think abbas is doing Modified version of Weaver..


http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4328/75555457.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)
Omer is doing Isoceles...

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/605/20475467.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

slayerjatt's grip is strange.. sort of what I do when I am tired :)

Isoceles be the best for me ...


http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/2954/51541799.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Omer571
07-09-2009, 09:20 PM
@Midreestaj: Whats Weaver and whats Isoceles, bro? Plz elaborate

HasanJamshad
07-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Just for the sake of discussion,Abbas's dominant elbow isn't locked so i doubt if it is a modified weaver, may be a relaxed modefied weaver. :)

HasanJamshad
07-09-2009, 09:43 PM
@Omer571, these are handgun shooting stance. I leave its defination for the Idreestaj and just give the list that i am aware of.
Isoceles
Modern Isoceles
Weaver
Modefied Weaver

MIdreesTaj
07-09-2009, 09:48 PM
@Midreestaj: Whats Weaver and whats Isoceles, bro? Plz elaborate

Isosceles Stance:

- Stand with legs about shoulder-width apart and the knees slightly bent. Face your target squarely, with feet parallel and pointed at the target.
- Extend both arms out in front of you and lock the elbows. Cup your gun hand with your other hand. Keep your back straight.
- Lean your upper body toward your target. Your shoulders are squared to the target, head is leaned down to line up the gunsight to your target.


Weaver Stance of Shooting:
- Body is BLADED to the target (at an angle) unlike Isoscles
- Your dominant leg(mostly right) is a little backwards, and the less dominant leg stays bit forward
- Legs a little bent at angles to provide cushioning and stability to the gesture, also legs are your shoulder width apart to provide stability against recoiling weapon, body weight is a little leaned forward
- You hold the weapon with your dominant hand(mostly right) with a firm grip, usually with a bit straightened arm(with elbow relaxed in weaver stance/ IF elbow locked it comes to modified weaver), and let the weaker hand cup over the finger's of dominant hand while giving support to the frame of the weapon. Weaker arm is bent and elbow points towards ground
- while your dominant arm stretches forward, it pushes the gun forward, on the same time, weaker hand pulls it back on the instance of firing.. this gives a hydraulic cushion to your shooting stance and is for better stability under repeated shots.

NOTE: These are the two most favored pistol/revolver shooting stances.
@Hassan Jamshad :) Sir I dont believe in Modified versions of weaver or Isosceles as proper STANCES! They are well customized according to ones own requirements or group of people's requirements.
Currently many of the competitor shooters are preferring Isosceles, but that doesn't mean they are not in favor of Weaver. Each one has its own benefits and the one that suits you more, or the one that gives you shooting on the go, better pointability/control/accuracy over repeated shots with yourself moving or still, is the one for you to go with. Try both.

Slayerjatt
07-09-2009, 09:57 PM
@midreestaj

thanks for the information sir. i am a newbie in shooting so don't consider my stance a stance.:p infact omer bhai corrected me and taught me the isosceles stance.:)

HasanJamshad
07-09-2009, 10:04 PM
@midreestaj, you are right there is not much difference in modefied versions except little bit difference in weight distribution and the bending of the arms. We both are concentrating on stance where both hands are used and completely ignoring the single hand shooting or bulls eye.

Omer571
07-09-2009, 10:06 PM
@midreestaj:
I learnt this stance from an Ex SSG instructor. gr8 that I know the name.

I guess weaver was the one they taught us for assault rifles. The right foot is way behind at right angle to the left foot which is pointing at the target. The left leg is bent at the knee, and the back is straight. Am i correct?

Yardie Jutt
07-09-2009, 10:21 PM
thanks to sir idreestaj for discussing the stance types at length here
very beneficial for learners like me:)

Ka_Khan
07-09-2009, 11:04 PM
@midreestaj...very informative.Its helpful for new members so have created a New thread for it.
Feel free to add different styles and why people use it.

Ka_Khan
08-09-2009, 01:29 AM
Benchrest
The word benchrest conjures images of rifle target shooters precisely aiming to achieve a bullet hole in the center of the target -- over and over. Take that concept of benchrest shooting and apply it to handguns, and you automatically throw in a few other factors that affect each shot, in ways different than shooting a rifle. Whereas a benchrest rifle shooter supports the gun on a rest and uses elbows, cheek, and shoulder to maintain the rifle position, a handgun shooter has only the rest and grip to support and maintain the gun position.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4716/81553951.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Modern Isosceles Stance


This two-handed shooting stance is a natural progression from the bench. The Modern Isosceles Stance begins with foot placement: stand with your feet shoulder-width apart and with the body weight distributed evenly. Do not lock your knees. Straighten your back and roll your hips slightly to flatten out the curve of your lower back. This position varies from its predecessor, the Isosceles, because you tilt your upper body forward slightly. Your head is erect and your arms are fully extended, creating an isosceles triangle. Bring the pistol to eye level. Lean forward slightly and make sure the pistol points naturally to the center of the target.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4248/22985429.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Weaver Stance

Named for L.A. county deputy sheriff Jack Weaver who developed the Weaver Stance in the 1950s, the Weaver Stance turns the body in relation to the target and creates a push-pull tension between the shooting and supporting arms and hands.

Stand with the shoulder of your strong (gun) hand back in relation to the shoulder of your supporting (weak) hand. Place your strong foot back, too. Hold the gun toward the target and keep your body at a 45-degree angle in relation to the target with your elbows tucked in. Grip the gun and push forward with your strong hand. Bend that elbow slightly. Pull back on the grip with your weak hand and bend that elbow slightly. This type of grip creates a push-pull stress that causes the gun to return downward in recoil after being fired.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8701/30392345.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)


The Modified Weaver Stance
A stance developed by world champion shooter Ray Chapman, uses the push-pull of the Weaver with an adjustment to the elbows. Instead of both elbows being flexed, the strong side elbow is straight and locked and the weak elbow is bent slightly and turned toward the ground. The Modified Weaver gets support from not only muscle, but also skeletal support. It is an excellent stance for women.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9050/69300045.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

12GAUGE
08-09-2009, 01:52 AM
AoA Everybody

Kindly read this article, it'll help alot.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

Regards

Enigmatic Desires
08-09-2009, 05:21 AM
Gr8 info Baara guage

ay_be_why
08-09-2009, 09:55 AM
@midreestaj:
I learnt this stance from an Ex SSG instructor. gr8 that I know the name.

I guess weaver was the one they taught us for assault rifles. The right foot is way behind at right angle to the left foot which is pointing at the target. The left leg is bent at the knee, and the back is straight. Am i correct?

from the descriptions, i think, yes it's a bit more suited for assault rifle and (maybe) shotgun shooting because the legs in the described stance will provide the much needed stability and cushioning against the large recoil...

LionHeart
08-09-2009, 11:34 AM
AoA Everybody

Kindly read this article, it'll help alot.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

Regards


Thanks Brother its really a useful info and well explained.

regards,

Sohail
08-09-2009, 12:19 PM
ka-Khan & midresstaj: today i have learnt a unique thing from both of you i was totally unaware about these techniques and now i can find that i usually go fo weaver stance. lovely info.

regards

Sohail
08-09-2009, 12:30 PM
how one can pronounce "Isosceles".

esos celes? eso celes?

Glocky
08-09-2009, 01:37 PM
@Sohail, I..saw..celes (as in Hercules)

Ka_Khan
08-09-2009, 01:48 PM
how one can pronounce "Isosceles".

esos celes? eso celes?

It should be 'Aiso-- cailis'... i hope you got it...juts open your mouth a bit for the first part :D

Denovo87
08-09-2009, 02:43 PM
try pronouncing " ahy-sos-uh-leez "

Abbas
08-09-2009, 03:29 PM
Salams guys,

Great thread and discussion Ka_Khan & Midreestaj.

I skipped this thread by mistake earlier. I would recommend not to go too much on descriptions and textbooks stances without first knowing what your 'natural' stance is. Whichever one it is, improve it rather than changing to the others because they look better.

Most people have one of the two discussed above. The picture taken above was when I was getting ready for a shot not taking one. Here's a video taken a few months ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhUP55sxBLc (Modified Weaver)

I would also like to mention that I think of the Isosceles as a range stance and the Weaver as 'real life' stance. I find the Weaver more stable because of the angle.

Slayerjatt
08-09-2009, 04:19 PM
i think i would feel more comfortable in weaver.

Denovo87
08-09-2009, 04:57 PM
@Abbas...I would also like to mention that I think of the Isosceles as a range stance and the Weaver as 'real life' stance. I find the Weaver more stable because of the angle.

Very well said, weaver is more stable, convenient, tactical & more agile in real life action. You can take & break the stance quicker then Isosceles, convenient in hit n hide/run situation.

Moeen
08-09-2009, 05:28 PM
Salam All,
I was taught the Weaver Stance over twenty years ago and though I can shoot isosceles, by default I always shoot Weaver Style.

MIdreesTaj
08-09-2009, 08:42 PM
respect to all the opinions from different members .. Just my thoughts on this please…but to be kept in mind is the Self Defense shooting. No range stuff here.

Weaver differs from Isosceles by the method of hold of the weapon basically.

Weaver includes ‘push and pull’ technique using both arms on the weapon, while Isosceles involves constant alignment (balanced) and straightening out of both arms.

Weaver: your arms cushion the recoiling energy from the weapon
Isosceles: your arms being relatively rigid transfer recoil to body.

Weaver stance is great for holding the gun in controlled environment. Only the correct amount of tension applied to both arms, tends to absorb recoil efficiently. Otherwise it can imbalance you between shot to shot. If you are in a real life situation, who knows how’s it going to be like? It’s hard for you to maintain that super correct and refined posture every time, varying shot to shot. Either the push and pull thingy goes SUPER RELAXED or OVERDONE leading to, not up to the mark shot placement.

Isosceles on the other hand is natural body position. Arms are both triangled to the shoulders. Weapon’s recoiling force moves right through middle of your body every time and is being absorbed by both arms equally. Arms are held as high as shoulders most of the time and its again naturally done posture.

Abrupt un-holstering of the weapon and fired shots on target/s **clearly an SD situation**, in here we see Isosceles as a leader in the stances. You can’t be faster and more accurate on targets than Isosceles.

Same quick shots on delivered to different targets, using Weaver stance with accuracy and speed requires ACCURATE tension build up in your Push (strong arm) and Pull (weak arm) strategy.

I am convinced that, Isosceles allows shooter to concentrate on shooting without worrying about maintaining active tension in the stance. Both halves of the body are doing the same thing and the resulting symmetry is easier to resume, especially under stress.

It is very much believed that, Weaver gives you superior control over ‘shooting on the go’. Being said that, I would say Isosceles also gives you the best pivoting effect. You can move to left or to right in a flick, as compared to Weaver.

And don’t forget not to carry out a stance unless you are about to shoot. Very simple logic behind this. Ofcourse one should not run to take cover or strafe while maintaining a proper stance. No body does that. But when you are about to shoot, resuming an Isosceles stance is quicker, and yet naturally build up, provoking more efficient shooting over all.

Isosceles also tends to be the favorite amongst SD shooters and experts who manage to deliver surgical shots within least time. So to get the maximum out of something concept, I’ll advocate Isosceles. Weaver does cover all aspects well enough though.

So which ever you like, do practice it because without practice it is just crap that will slow down your response in the RED times… :)

MIdreesTaj
08-09-2009, 09:25 PM
@midreestaj:
I learnt this stance from an Ex SSG instructor. gr8 that I know the name.

I guess weaver was the one they taught us for assault rifles. The right foot is way behind at right angle to the left foot which is pointing at the target. The left leg is bent at the knee, and the back is straight. Am i correct?

Omer I think the name Weaver and Isosceles are more applied on handgunning. For assault rifles, component wise, both sort of styles are applied. Legs wide apart than shoulder and body leaned forward to pull the G-force forward out of the body to maintain stability and rifle raised to the line of sight, head in natural postion with whole body squared to the target AND also the other way around with weaver components may be, for firing LMGs or stuff like that.. some military person would better explain it.

Malik1
08-09-2009, 09:46 PM
A highly informative thread. Well done midreestaj

MIdreesTaj
08-09-2009, 09:47 PM
@Ka_Khan and Abbas
thanks for your undertaking and all the way new thread...:)

I myself agree to all the opinions above given by all worthy members. I would say thanks to Ka_Khan for more clarified and pictorial representation of most common shooting stances.
Everyone is welcome to experiment, tailor any stance upto your needs and there you go, practice is must afterwards.

MIdreesTaj
10-09-2009, 06:15 PM
*************** CLOSE RANGE SHOOTING ENCOUNTERS ******************

Well my friends, in the world of handgunning and SD shooting, it has been told that average gun fights have occured at the distance of 2 to 5 meters only.

Why?

Because normally we dont know what sort of conflict we might find ourselves, in a matter of a flick! Seriously you dont know the guy whos crushing his teeth on you might try to dump automatic rounds in you from his concealed .22LR pistol under the surge of aggression...!!!

So its sad but true.... i mean the distance part especially :)

So are you going to use WEAVER! or ISOSCELES?????? What stance do you think will help you to repond quickly and accurately .. and that more quickly and more accurately than the aggressor!

Please think !!!

Denovo87
10-09-2009, 06:32 PM
Shooting stances are to learn, practice, get used to with your weapon n ammu, compete etc. you cannot make a stance when hidding behind a table or lying on the bar floor.
When you are facing a life threat you just have to pull and start shooting as soon as your barrel is out of the holster running backward or side wards to save yourself and do practice this aswell, its the most usefull technique (stance if you call it) in gun brawls.

MIdreesTaj
10-09-2009, 06:40 PM
@Denovo87

you are right denovo, weaver or isosceles wont do a trick in this troubled scenario...After all when we run, duck, or fire from the ground..we do not make any of such STANCES!

Stances do help you to be efficient... i.e FAST and Accurate!

I would definately do isosceles as per my personal natural tendency of stretching my weapon out at the aggressor aligned with my vision of him!
BUT thats at distances greater than 5 meters atleast...

How about point shooting?

HasanJamshad
10-09-2009, 06:55 PM
I think at the distances like 2m upto 5m when the urgency of shooting will fall at once neither Weaver nor Isoceles will be of much use. IMHO, point shooting will be the much useful shooting in this case. In point shooting gun is not aimed at the target but is just pointed at the target. Shooter just rely on his/her instincts to point the gun at the target, keeping his eyes focused at the target strictly no attempt to bring the gun upto the sight plane. In close quarters this is almost impossible to miss a human sized target by even a novice leave aside a properly trained point shooter. As this is an impulsive threat focused technique of shooting strictly based on the insticts of the shooter. So, there are no time delays or fumbles making this an ideal technique for very close quarter threats.

Denovo87
10-09-2009, 07:01 PM
In lif threatening situation quick reaction is required so POINT SHOOTING is only option you have, you dont have time to even look at your sights or worry about the proper grip n alignment, you just have to raise, pull and keep firing at what ever threatening mass you see.

MIdreesTaj
10-09-2009, 07:07 PM
@HasanJamshad
Sir you just completed my idea ! :)

We as shooters must differentiate between the importance of STANCES and their implications in real gunfights.

Weaver or Isosceles have no use here at all... Point shoot!
Instinctual shooting comes with practice...
Gunfight Mind frame and acquisition of closely faced targets with a pointing hand and a sqeezing finger... is it? Forget your gun! think its your hand only...

MIdreesTaj
10-09-2009, 07:11 PM
@Denovo87
Sir Point shooting is what we all agree on?
yes it does seem logical and practical too

Denovo87
10-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Sure Midreestaj, point shooting is practicle approach when in (real life threatening) fight, practical use of stances is in hunting & sport, I think.

MHMalik
11-09-2009, 01:59 AM
I never can remember which is which. But stance should be what comes naturally to you.

Breathing and trigger control are in my opinion more important than trying to copy Mr. Weaver or figuring out whether the elbow is locked or not.

When push comes to shove, All this goes out the window. priority is to present the least amount of profile to the opposition (read = run to COVER) and improvise your stance as per the nature of the cover.

If you are THAT interested shooting for defense or "tactically", may I suggest shooting from prone, crounching, moving turning, and rolling while timing yourself?

When bullets are airborne, deciding and deciphering whether to adopt weaver or isoceles WILL have a less than desireable consequence.

adopt a natural stance, the one you shoot accurately with. Speed comes with time and practice. Its really that simple. But then again I am just an amateur, so feel free to correct me :)

HasanJamshad
11-09-2009, 10:49 AM
But then again I am just an amateur, so feel free to correct me :)

Sir, there is absolutely no need to correct you as neither you are amateur nor you have said anything wrong or illogical. As, i am also an advocate of a practical, useful and effective shooting stance. There is nothing more annoying when we focus more on subtle detais while completely overlooking the objective acheivement. Hence in other than sports shooting the objective is threat elimination. If one can do that without immitating Mr Weaver or forming an isoceles with shoulders and arms, it is perfectly fine. :)

Sir, when it comes to the knowledge of more stable and comfortable body positions that are being practiced by top sports and LE (Law enforcement) shooters there is nothing wrong in discussing in detail. A new shooter can practice these stances and can adopt something that is closest to one's natural comfortable position. Wish one's natural stance does not differ too much from the proven best, if it does, even then there is no harm in adopting one's own until and unless it is effective. There is completely no need to learn the history of these stances or the names for good shooting.

Starfish
11-09-2009, 11:06 AM
i read a very interesting article in a magazine regarding the stance mumbo jumbo. let me look for it. The guy had a very funny take on it.
i think it was a law enforcement magazine, probably the american cop.

Starfish
11-09-2009, 11:35 AM
LOL: The hidden drunken praying mantis of doom and harbinger of painfully slow death stance :d

you can read the magazine online here http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanCop/ACSO08/ scroll to page 46 for the said article. I have also attached images of the first 2 pages.


http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/766/70032614.th.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxSk6Xi)

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6991/90772705.th.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxSkbWA)

Zubair
11-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Good find STARFISH & I agree with both HASSANJAMSHED & MH MALIK. I think trigger control & grip are far more important then stances. GOD forbids when we are in a 'situation' one normally finds the best stance instinctively :)
No matter how many articles we read or how much we practice , and how hard we find it to maintain our arms extended & grip firm at range, in real life scene we will automatically find our arms extended & in a perfect stance. Its like by default your body is for 'rapid fire'

MIdreesTaj
11-09-2009, 06:57 PM
Breathing and trigger control are in my opinion more important than trying to copy Mr. Weaver or figuring out whether the elbow is locked or not.

When push comes to shove, All this goes out the window. priority is to present the least amount of profile to the opposition (read = run to COVER) and improvise your stance as per the nature of the cover.

If you are THAT interested shooting for defense or "tactically", may I suggest shooting from prone, crounching, moving turning, and rolling while timing yourself?

When bullets are airborne, deciding and deciphering whether to adopt weaver or isoceles WILL have a less than desireable consequence.

adopt a natural stance, the one you shoot accurately with. Speed comes with time and practice. Its really that simple. But then again I am just an amateur, so feel free to correct me :)

Sir I'll say... shooting from the cover, from the ground or shooting while straffing are all different stances.. one has to make them up according to the need of situation.

Weaver or Isosceles are 2 of such stances... made when you are faced to your target or when you come out of cover to fire...

Its better if you contemplate your shooting style ... and keep on doing that.. to make a better 'prone to gunfight' mind...

Firing a weapon is a mechanical thing in nature.. If you dont see importance in working out cutting edge moves.. your efficeincy is down.

and after all shooting is not a haywire or ninja thing, like we see in movies...

MIdreesTaj
11-09-2009, 07:12 PM
As, i am also an advocate of a practical, useful and effective shooting stance. There is nothing more annoying when we focus more on subtle detais while completely overlooking the objective acheivement. Hence in other than sports shooting the objective is threat elimination. If one can do that without immitating Mr Weaver or forming an isoceles with shoulders and arms, it is perfectly fine. :)

Practical shooting and its effectiveness...Sir i'll again ponder on making a gunfight oriented mindset.. and work on cuttin edge tits and bits to gain a command on it. I'll say, what you are doing, you must know what it is.. and hence you should train yourself with the best ideas..

In marshal arts, if you fight in a haywire style, you usually end up in broken limbs and teeth... why? because you acting out off the course, that gives often chances to the other contestant to kick you hard wherever you present yourself wrongly...

I agree when you said... "A new shooter can practice these stances and can adopt something that is closest to one's natural comfortable position. Wish one's natural stance does not differ too much from the proven best"... very well said, it is actually the esence of knowing the proper stances..

but i dont agree with you when you said.. "There is completely no need to learn the history of these stances or the names for good shooting".. Sir what a shooter! who never passed his knowledge to his son, friends or shared it with colleagues?? You must know what you are doing... move per move and step by step, so that you can contemplate it and well traverse your knowledge to your allies..

Whatever the crazy styles... cannot be effective... neither can you proove it effective if only and only you yourself can shoot good with that style. :)

MIdreesTaj
11-09-2009, 07:47 PM
I think trigger control & grip are far more important then stances.

in real life scene we will automatically find our arms extended & in a perfect stance. Its like by default your body is for 'rapid fire'

Sir.. having a gun is most important.. then trigger / sight alignment / and breath conrol.
Stances are way after all these..
...and yes you clearly mention how your moves could be...in a real life situation.. see when we discuss and propagate knowledge... we need proper names.. in a literal sense you may say... ;) just my two cents..

HasanJamshad
11-09-2009, 07:59 PM
midreestaj wrote:

Whatever the crazy styles... cannot be effective... neither can you proove it effective if only and only you yourself can shoot good with that style. :)

I am not against learning the techniques that are developed, tested, improved and adopted by the top shooters. Neither i think these techniques can harm one's natural shooting capabilities :) As superior techniques are the ones those complement the natural talent instead of undermining it. Learning in detail saves us from reinventing the history. Not knowing the name and development history is seprate from the technique itself so they are not mendatory.

At the same time if one can put bullets in the bull consistently and can eliminate threats without getting hurt i will not insist that guy to change his/her proven technique. May be there is another top shooter in the making. ;)

MIdreesTaj
12-09-2009, 08:08 PM
Continuing the discussion...

*************** CLOSE RANGE SHOOTING ENCOUNTERS ******************

We have discussed some 'NOT VERY CLOSE RANGE' shooting stances:
- Weaver & Isosceles (please refer to older posts in this thread for details regarding these)
- We figured "Point Shooting" as the best natural response to close quarter encounters AND bad lighting conditions – Too dim light OR Darkness…

***Now some issues about close range? Like 2-5 meters?***
- You don’t have time to make a proper gesture with Arms, Torso and legs...
- Don’t have time to align pistol sights or to make a Flash Sight picture...
- Don’t have enough space to carry out these moves...
- You are clearing a building/house type of scenario…

I came across a new stance suitable for above conditions:
(BUT DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME) :lol:

~~~ C.A.R - Center Axis Relock ~~~
- Invented by Paul Castle of SabreTactical Security Systems.
- Invented for close quarter encounters and low light conditions.
- Better recoil absorption mechanism.
- Natural instinctive stance as per natural stress response in humans.
- Tends to provide you a better position to retain your weapon.
- The need for speed.
- Optimum use of cover.

NOTE: The development of CAR was based on the requirements of close-range combat with a handgun. But it can be usefully deployed on long guns as well.

* CAR shooting system works in harmony with the body when under stress and is particularly reliable in close quarter situations. The system was developed to improve marksmanship by focusing on natural visual focal points and gross motor movements. The stability of the shooter is improved by creating a lower center of gravity and a secure base.

*Please Watch Paul Castle demonstrating CAR with Pistols, SMG and a Pump-action Shotgun:
http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/car.html

The Center Axis Relock Method of Gunfighting utilizes two main positions or stances as bases for action...

The High Position:
The first position is called the High position. It is used for working within confined spaces, from cover, and while moving.
It is a very strong and flexible base for using both short and long weapons such as a handgun, shotgun, sub-machine gun, and other weapons.
In the High position, the operator is in a semi-bladed stance, with the weapon held or cradled next to the chest.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2049/27643616.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)
- The position is achieved by blading towards the threat while also drawing and bringing the gun up to the chest. When the gun is drawn, it should be directed to the threat for firing if needed. Also, as the gun is being brought up, the other hand should be moving to grasp and support it.
- This base position reduces the Operator's silhouette, employs a balanced and stable, yet flexible body stance, and works in harmony with gross muscle movements, gross motor skills, and our natural reactions to extreme stress, one of which, is to bring the arms and hands back to the body, not away from it.
- The stance with elbows extended, makes up a natural cradle from which the gun can be fired with both hands or with just the gun hand.
Its framework sets up a circle of control and defense that makes it very difficult for an Aggressor to grab or take possession of the Operators handgun
- The circle of control and defense is maintained by rotating towards a threat. In a contact situation, strikes with the elbows and the gun can be made, or the gun can be fired.
- The stability and ease of movement gained by using a bladed stance, along with keeping the gun at the operator's natural focal point, allows for fast acquisition of multiple targets.
Also, the weak hand is up and ready for use in opening doors, clearing the way, and other tasks.
- The thumbs can be placed anywhere, as long as their placement does not interfere with the workings of the gun.
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8508/52890087.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)


The Extended Position:
-The second CAR position is called the extended position. It is used for entry, combat, and assault. It also can be used effectively when seated inside a vehicle.
- The Extended position or stance, allows for high levels of accuracy, as well as very rapid shooting while moving.
- The gun is held naturally and close to the Operators true focus point (normal reading distance).
- That is an enhancement over stances that employ full arm extension, as doing that takes the sights out of the Operator's natural focus point.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6439/34262385.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Zubair
12-09-2009, 11:37 PM
Regarding this CAR I tried this at range...also communicated with one US instructer. The cost is very high...you require around 5K rounds for this course. The POINT shootiing method is more achivable & interesting where you use your middle finger to fire & no usage of sights.

Ilyas
12-09-2009, 11:44 PM
Very informative... thanks for sharing :) As the gurus have repeatedly mentioned, practice n more practice
is the only way to perfect any of these stances and for achieving the impulsive/instinctive stage, that is needed
in any demanding situation.

MIdreesTaj
13-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Regarding this CAR I tried this at range...also communicated with one US instructer. The cost is very high...you require around 5K rounds for this course. The POINT shootiing method is more achivable & interesting where you use your middle finger to fire & no usage of sights.

Sir point shooting doesnt involve usage of middle finger for triggering, rather this style is already known to be one wacko style... done by punks and cowboys :) more specifically..
5k rounds cost is nothing for such an elite form of shooting there if get it done n train rightly Sir!
CAR system is a form of Point shooting instead where one once trained can be faster AND dead accurate at the same time.. saves your body from wrong exposures.. absorbs recoil up to 70% of actual recoil.. did u not feel it does absorb recoil and serves as best body posture for gunfight cuz u tried it at range?
plz share your experience ...

Skeeter60
13-09-2009, 08:36 PM
When you have to shoot in SD you 'll probably be shooting one handed, chances are sitting in a car seat, lying/sitting up in bed or jumping out a car door.

It is no doubt important and good to learn the Kamasutra of handgunning; but these stances are for Special Forces or SWAT Teams used for aggressive action not for SD.
The SF will have surprise on their side while in SD you will be the one surprised and off balance.
The SF will prepare,rehearse and launch offensive action making sure the BG are caught imbalanced.
Just trying to put a smile on your lips guys, Pl spend more time on the range and lesser and lesser on the computer

MIdreesTaj
13-09-2009, 10:10 PM
@Skeeter60
Sir! our wait and determination has led us not to defend but to offense now :)
Its my brotherly message to all criminal brothers out there, once seen in act will be shot..

TAREEN
14-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Just trying to put a smile on your lips guys, Pl spend more time on the range and lesser and lesser on the computer
Now thats a real piece of advice.

MIdreesTaj
14-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Seeing a range is much up to one's resources and opportunities...and thats a separate issue... :)
so any hands on experience or information regarding shooting stances is much awaited...
anyone?

Skeeter60
15-09-2009, 10:02 AM
midreestaj
Lahore is not far. Kindly contact me <jawedu@hotmail.com> we will spend a day at the range togather.
Would love to exchange gun talk and do some shooting and meet a number of other brothers at the range. Pl give your availabilty

MIdreesTaj
15-09-2009, 08:34 PM
midreestaj
Lahore is not far. Kindly contact me <jawedu@hotmail.com> we will spend a day at the range togather.
Would love to exchange gun talk and do some shooting and meet a number of other brothers at the range. Pl give your availabilty

Sir I feel honoured to spend a day with a professional like you. I have noted your mail id. I shoot on our family's land near sadhoke(a small town on GT-road between Lahore and Gujranwala). Feels much like a private range :)
But as soon as I get some time spared from my relentless job, i'll let you know Sir and then wait for what you decide, and surely I would love it and feel much obliged...