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12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 04:43 AM
AoA Everybody

Me and my friends got into a discussion the other day about how we use some of our weapons extensively and how some of our weapons hardly see any use at all. infact i'm sure the situation should be quiet familiar to u guys as well as any guy with more than one firearm knows that some of weapons in our collection just sit in the gun cabinet all the time to collect dirt. the most use they see is in the form of periodical cleaning and re-lubing.

one thing led to another, Micheal Jackson turned white from black and we all got into thinking how to store firearms for extended periods of time.

so lets hear it out guys, how do u think we can store our cabinet queens for extended periods of time, say more than one year at a time without any priodical cleaning or relubing. storage conditions must guarantee rust/dust free retrieval of the firearms when the storage period ends.

Regards.

p.s. I talked to a chemical engineer friend of mine and got an interesting concotion, the concotion guarentees (using complex polymer engineering, moisture transmission rates, moisture retarding requirements and moisture barrier area in consideration) a minimum storage period of 5 years (way beyond the target). but i'll keep quiet for now cause first I gotta hear out your ideas. may be some one can come up with an alot simpler idea. they say: "THE EASIEST SOLUTON TO A PROBLEM IS QUIET OFTEN THE BEST SOLUTION"

hasnaincfa
04-09-2009, 05:36 AM
I think first clean fiream thoroughly, then apply cosmoline to all metal parts. Seperate the wood and metal as much as possible and seal them well.
The most common use of cosmoline is the storage and preservation of firearms. Objects the size of entire vehicles could be preserved for future use with cosmoline.
Chemically, cosmoline is a homogeneous mixture of oily and waxy long-chain, non-polar hydrocarbons. It is always brown in color, and can differ in viscosity and shear strength. Cosmoline melts at 130-150 F (4552 C) and has a flashpoint of 365 F (185 C).
During World War II, US Coast Artillerymen (serving the huge coastal artillery batteries) were known as "Cosmoliners" because they were tasked with the near constant cosmoline application ("greasing down") of the guns.During Pacific island campaigns in World War II, the United States Marines sang a song about Cosmoline. Adapting the popular big-band tune "Tangerine," they would sing "Cosmoline...keeps my rifle clean."
An someone told me that Pakistan Army also use casmoline to clean or preserve their firearms. But he told that the drawback of casmoline is due to its gelatinous nature cosmoline can difficult to remove completely from firearms and some other chemical is used to remove it.

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 12:33 PM
I think first clean fiream thoroughly, then apply cosmoline to all metal parts. Seperate the wood and metal as much as possible and seal them well.
The most common use of cosmoline is the storage and preservation of firearms. Objects the size of entire vehicles could be preserved for future use with cosmoline.
Chemically, cosmoline is a homogeneous mixture of oily and waxy long-chain, non-polar hydrocarbons. It is always brown in color, and can differ in viscosity and shear strength. Cosmoline melts at 130-150 F (4552 C) and has a flashpoint of 365 F (185 C).
During World War II, US Coast Artillerymen (serving the huge coastal artillery batteries) were known as "Cosmoliners" because they were tasked with the near constant cosmoline application ("greasing down") of the guns.During Pacific island campaigns in World War II, the United States Marines sang a song about Cosmoline. Adapting the popular big-band tune "Tangerine," they would sing "Cosmoline...keeps my rifle clean."
An someone told me that Pakistan Army also use casmoline to clean or preserve their firearms. But he told that the drawback of casmoline is due to its gelatinous nature cosmoline can difficult to remove completely from firearms and some other chemical is used to remove it.


yes! brother, cosmoline was one option that we discussed but with cosmoline preservation we run into three problems.

1. not available in the market
2. application is very difficult as the military dips the firearms in a tub of melted cosmoline
3. removal is very difficult and usually a full time job requiring hot water or some kind of solvent in large quanitities.

Regards.

Zubair
04-09-2009, 02:35 PM
My limited expereince has been limlited to just 'mummifying' the gun i-e oil it extensively then wrap it in cloth and tie it up.

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 02:41 PM
My limited expereince has been limlited to just 'mummifying' the gun i-e oil it extensively then wrap it in cloth and tie it up.


it could work, but cloth can soak up moisture from air. that can lead to serious rusting. infact I higly advise against such a treatment. one more problem with such a treatment is that at the end of the storage period the firearm will require proper cleaning and re-lubing, i'm kinda hoping that a member can come up with a more "rapid deployment" type solution.

Regards

a55kika
04-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Just spray the case(if provided with the gun) with Brunox.That will sufficiently hold it from corroding for atleast a decade.Otherwise wrap the gun around with a cotton cloth.Make sure u spray the gun with an anti-corrosion solvent before you wrap it.

MIdreesTaj
04-09-2009, 04:03 PM
- For storing, a high viscocity fluid is more welcomed, like a grease / gel. It will stay in place for longer periods.
- Wrap the firearm in plastic bag with multiple folds, and seal it with tape.
I ve seen webley mark 3 revolvers of my grand dad stored this way since 1960s. 3 of them. I happened to unpack them to have a look on the old weaponry. I was amazed to see they were in No.1 condition, literally no RUST and no signs of corrosion. They were thoroughly bathed in simple mustard oil.

I would like to add here that these guns were unpacked cleaned and oiled several times during this time period, however using the mustard oil had gunked up guns quite a bit.
So please dont use mustard oil .. :) Last time my Mamu, unpacked them and oiled them, he did it again with mustard oil as it was an instruction of grand dad and its meant to be followed anyway...

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 04:07 PM
Just spray the case(if provided with the gun) with Brunox.That will sufficiently hold it from corroding for atleast a decade.Otherwise wrap the gun around with a cotton cloth.Make sure u spray the gun with an anti-corrosion solvent before you wrap it.


three questions:

1. brunox will eventually evaporate then what? this product was never designed as a long term storage solution.

2. anti corrosion solvent? whats that? one more thing, why would somebody wanna store their firearms in a solvent for extended period of time. knowing that a solvent of any kind can harm firearms if left for long.

3. shouldnt the "anti-corrosion solvent" evaporate over time. leaving the firearm without any kind of protection?

Regards.

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 07:50 PM
- For storing, a high viscocity fluid is more welcomed, like a grease / gel. It will stay in place for longer periods.
- Wrap the firearm in plastic bag with multiple folds, and seal it with tape.
I ve seen webley mark 3 revolvers of my grand dad stored this way since 1960s. 3 of them. I happened to unpack them to have a look on the old weaponry. I was amazed to see they were in No.1 condition, literally no RUST and no signs of corrosion. They were thoroughly bathed in simple mustard oil.

I would like to add here that these guns were unpacked cleaned and oiled several times during this time period, however using the mustard oil had gunked up guns quite a bit.
So please dont use mustard oil .. :) Last time my Mamu, unpacked them and oiled them, he did it again with mustard oil as it was an instruction of grand dad and its meant to be followed anyway...


hmm..... wraping the guns in plastic bags and sealing them. this could work. infact this idea seems like the most workable one. however greasing the gun will mean that at the end of the storage period cleaning would be a difficult task. i'm sorta looking for a storage technique where at the end of the storage period the guns come out fully functional and without mandatory cleaning/dusting necessary.

Regards.

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 07:56 PM
wait a minute!

midreestaj's idea can be expanded a bit. instead using plastic bags (which do transmitt moisture) and bags sealed only by tape (which also transmitts moisture) how about we just oil the gun as it is normally oiled and seal the gun in HIGH DENSITY POLYETHYLENE bag, vaccum sealed. this is ensure the gun stays moisture free till then end of the storage period and when u do need the gun, just tear open the HDPE bag.

now, if i'm not wrong since we want 0% moisture transmission we would have to restrict our choice to HDPE only and with minimum film thickness of 100 microns (0.1mm). this should do the job.

regular plastics, PVC, LDPE are all inferior to HDPE in moisture barrier role. another benefit of HDPE over other types of polymers is that it is relatively stable and not effected by solvents, oils and chemicals. another plus since we'll be storing the firearms all oiled up.

now the other tricky part: where to get custom sized HDPE bags of 100 micron film thickness?

Regards

Skeeter60
04-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Break free is a very good Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative (CLP). It is available and very effective round the year.
Nicely pointed out earlier that packages which do not breath are a major cause of rust. As the temperature falls after the monsoons ( in our part of the world ) a sealed package forces all the moisture to be deposited on the weapon. Equally bad are plastic boxes with sponge in them and flexible case with sponge.
If Break Free is not available. I will dig out a very fine formula of making your own Rifle oil in a day or two

ay_be_why
04-09-2009, 09:45 PM
i guess one could clean, lube and seal one's piece in an HDPE bag WITH maybe a pack of silica gel/any other desiccant taped inside the bag away from the oily metal... and i think such bags might be available at malls like metro...

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 10:52 PM
i guess one could clean, lube and seal one's piece in an HDPE bag WITH maybe a pack of silica gel/any other desiccant taped inside the bag away from the oily metal... and i think such bags might be available at malls like metro...


thats exactly what i'm trying to say brother.

Regards

12GAUGE
04-09-2009, 11:16 PM
Break free is a very good Cleaner Lubricant and Preservative (CLP). It is available and very effective round the year.
Nicely pointed out earlier that packages which do not breath are a major cause of rust. As the temperature falls after the monsoons ( in our part of the world ) a sealed package forces all the moisture to be deposited on the weapon. Equally bad are plastic boxes with sponge in them and flexible case with sponge.
If Break Free is not available. I will dig out a very fine formula of making your own Rifle oil in a day or two

Sir, CLPs are designed to provide protection against rust for short term only. any CLP (including breakfree) is designed to do three functions at the same time, clean, lubricate and protect. any CLP will eventually evaporate and oxidize over time leaving the firearm without any kind of protection against rust. as far as the effectiveness of breakfree CLP is concerned, Pakguns Lube (my concotion, gained valuable experience in lubrication in the process) out performs it by atleast 3:1 (lubrication data, tests conducted at Scientific Engineering Services-Islamabad, is available against Hoppes and militec and we all know militec is the most respected brand of lubricants). trust me, there is nothing in CLP thats extraordinary. my oil (Pakguns lube) performs much better. it doesnt gum up, it doenst have any solvents in it as well and is full of oxygen inhibitors which we need for extended storage periods.

as far as the moisture migrating to metal surface in a plastic bag is concerned, here you are absolutely right. but i'm thinking we use HDPE polyethylene bags with minimum single side wall thickness of 100 microns (to provide maximum barrier againt outside moisture). the bags will be vaccum sealed (all the air sucked out to remove any inside moisture). the bags will also contain Silica based dessicants to absorb any remaining moisture. i'm betting that such a concotion should guarentee a moisture free environment for the firearms. the firearms will be lubricated as normal. when the storage period expires the bags will be torn open, firearms retrieved, ready to use. no mandatory cleaning, lubing required.

Regards.

p.s. when contacted an HDPE manufacturer in Karachi, he agreed that certain organization inorder to preserve ferrous products (even governemnt when concerned with firearms) do order such bags in open tender. he said I was spot on the with 100 micron film thickness.

Enigmatic Desires
05-09-2009, 04:05 PM
AN HDPE bag seems like hte best bet so far.. but what to do bout the moisture and air that would be already in the bag when it is sealed.

Selica gel seems like a good idea.

MIdreesTaj
05-09-2009, 04:15 PM
AN HDPE bag seems like hte best bet so far.. but what to do bout the moisture and air that would be already in the bag when it is sealed.

Selica gel seems like a good idea.

yes.. Selica Gel pouch + A SUCTION PUMP to be used on the package before sealing it. :)

MUSTANIR
05-09-2009, 11:25 PM
12G I know u will finally disclose the best practicable option so OUT WITH IT SIR:rolleyes:

Enigmatic Desires
06-09-2009, 04:30 AM
AN HDPE bag seems like hte best bet so far.. but what to do bout the moisture and air that would be already in the bag when it is sealed.

Selica gel seems like a good idea.

yes.. Selica Gel pouch + A SUCTION PUMP to be used on the package before sealing it. :)


Yeah if a perfect vaccuam can be achived we dont need anything else. not even the gel..

12GAUGE
06-09-2009, 04:39 AM
so, the final long term storage solution: (in collaboration with esteemed members' input)

1. HDPE bag with 100 micron film thickness
2. silica gel to absorb moisture from inside the bag (no harm, quiet inexpensive, 500 bags of grams silica in 1000 rupees)
3. vaccum sealed to remove any moisture from inside the bag.
4. before all that oil the gun as usuall, when ever storage period expires just tear the bag open, retrieve the gun combat/hunting ready.

NEXT PHASE:

GET IT DONE!

will post back the findings on how to get all this done, economically ofcourse.

Regards.

MHMalik
06-09-2009, 08:39 AM
Is it really worth the effort?

After cleaning and drying I just apply gun grease on the metal parts, in a light coating, use a little synthetic oil in the barrel (low evaporation rate), and put the weapon inside one of those black bags (the garbage ones) with a pouch of silica gel.

Its the most economical and practical thing I have thought of. But then again I dont own hollands or stuff like that and dont put them away for more than 3 months. (not a collector). So I dont need to pamper them.

One more thing, once I bought a spray can of Hoppes dry lube. When sprayed, it would leave a slippery white opaque film on the metal which was impenetratable and provided sufficient lubrication so that the weapon could be used just like that. Also it did not attract dirt or moisture. Never found it again though. ANy thoughts on possibly using it for protection purposes?

12GAUGE
06-09-2009, 12:35 PM
.............and dont put them away for more than 3 months............


bro, upto three months i'm sure most of us do the same thing but here our objective is 1 to two years and perhaps upto three years at a time. our solution might look over kill to u but if u look at what we are trying to achieve u'll understand that it absolutely makes sense.

Objective: store the firearms in a battle ready (hunting ready) state for a period no less than one year.

Regards.

MIdreesTaj
06-09-2009, 03:53 PM
@12gauge

I was thinking about your idea of HDPE bags. Lets us think from another angle.

What we want to achieve is an "air tight seal"!

So lets take sealing machine attached with a pump, you run the pump n suck all air out, as much as possible, while the pump is maintaining on sucked/collapsed state, the sealing machine just seals it right there...
Sealing that we see on food products or other plastic packed products.. and lets put a selica inside too for better efficiency inside the sealed bag...

Dr Zakir
06-09-2009, 04:39 PM
as discussed count me in for the bags.

Dr Zakir
06-09-2009, 04:40 PM
i think it will be great for long term storage

12GAUGE
06-09-2009, 07:49 PM
@12gauge

I was thinking about your idea of HDPE bags. Lets us think from another angle.

What we want to achieve is an "air tight seal"!

So lets take sealing machine attached with a pump, you run the pump n suck all air out, as much as possible, while the pump is maintaining on sucked/collapsed state, the sealing machine just seals it right there...
Sealing that we see on food products or other plastic packed products.. and lets put a selica inside too for better efficiency inside the sealed bag...


very good point bro, the idea did came under discussion during my meeting with a chemical engineer friend of mine, he says, food storage (shrink wrap or stretch wrap) is not HDPE or LDPE, its basically PET, which can easily transmitt moisture over a long period. since food storage is done for a very short shelf life hence its a non-issue but for firearm storage of say 2-3 years, its a big issue. if we want outside moisture to remain outside, we must use HDPE (lowest moisture transmission rate) and a film thickness of no less than 100 micron to ensure 0% transmission of moisture. shrink type plastic wrap comes in a thickness of around 5 micron and ur regular plastic shopping bags are of 10-15 micron (both sides) whereas we are talking about a minimum thickness of 100 micron (single side). now thats pretty heavy stuff.

one more thing: we need that bag to withstand rigors of shipping and handling as well. food storage bags will completey vanish in solvents, specially hydrocarbons. whereas HDPE is unaffected by solvent, chemicals and hydrocarbons.

Regards.

Enigmatic Desires
08-09-2009, 05:22 AM
Any idea bout costs

Enigmatic Desires
09-09-2009, 04:20 AM
I would love to get my hand on a few of those..

12GAUGE
09-09-2009, 12:59 PM
for the time being the cost that i'm getting for a HDPE bag of 200 micron thickness and size 10inch * 60inch is around 200 rupees per bag. I think its pretty inexpensive considering the use. a single bag considering the size can be used to store long guns and can be cut into smaller bags for storing pistols and stuff like that.

@ED

ofcourse buddy, as soon i'll get some, i'll make sure u get some too. :)

Regards

p.s.

now it all depends on wether Denovo arranges the bags for me or i'll have to order the "minimum quantity order" from HDPE manufacturer. cause i'm thinking what the hell am I gonna do with 30KG of HDPE bags?

Denovo87
09-09-2009, 01:32 PM
Dont worry 12gauge, I will send you a small swatch of currenly available tickness HDPE tomorrow, please SMS me your complete adress + land line # + contact name, to send that through TCS.
Will get the bags made & sent next week once you approve the material, no cost or price invloved, a gift for my PG brothers.

AMaliks
09-09-2009, 06:56 PM
@Denovo87 a true warm gesture towards PG brother !

12GAUGE
09-09-2009, 07:08 PM
Dont worry 12gauge, I will send you a small swatch of currenly available tickness HDPE tomorrow, please SMS me your complete adress + land line # + contact name, to send that through TCS.
Will get the bags made & sent next week once you approve the material, no cost or price invloved, a gift for my PG brothers.


Thank you Sir, this kind genture of urs is highly appreciated. I've emailed u my complete information.

Regards.

Enigmatic Desires
10-09-2009, 03:25 AM
@Den & 12 guage.. U are both very kind and considerate people!!

12GAUGE
10-09-2009, 04:35 AM
@Den & 12 guage.. U are both very kind and considerate people!!


thanks buddy for the kind words.

Regards.

Denovo87
10-09-2009, 11:46 AM
@Den & 12 guage.. U are both very kind and considerate people!!

Thaks ED, love to hear, talk & interact with my PG brothers.

12GAUGE
19-09-2009, 09:08 PM
AoA Everybody

As promised, Denovo Bhai has sent me the bags absolutely true to the required specifications and here comes the best part, THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE, A GIFT TO PAKGUNNERS FROM DENOVO

After telephonic consultation with Abbas Bhai, the best option is:

25 bags will be delivered to Peshawar Chapter (ka_khan)
50 bags will be delivered to Karachi Chapter (taurus)
remaining bags will be delivered to Lahore Chapter (Abbass Bhai)

from there, representatives of the respective chapters will deliver/distribute to the the bags to Pakgunners according to the demand.

Description of the bag:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3054/42101544.jpg

Each bag is 60inch long tube of Polyethylene (250micron film thickness, wow!) with width of 12inch. they can be used to store firearms/ammo for a period ranging between 1-5 years. the bags are absolutely safe from solvents/oil/chemicals. the bags are heat sealable (just tried it moments ago). each bag can easily be cut into smaller bags for pistols/handguns/ammo storage otherwise each bag (12*60inch) has been designed to accommodate large hunting rifles/shotguns with scopes mounted.

DIRECTIONS:

First: check the weapon and ensure that the weapon is empty/safe. turn the safety on. decock the hammer (to release the spring of any tension).

Second: clean and lubricate the weapon, put a good coat of oil on all metal surfaces.

Third: vaccum seal if possible, otherwise just put a few dessicant packs inside the bag along with the weapon (preferably few near the barrel and few near the trigger) and heat seal the bag.

This setup will ensure that the weapon stays moisture free (rust free) and dust free for a period ranging between 1-5 years. the bags are thick/strong enough to be handled roughly and will cushion the weapon incase of a fall. another plus, the bags can be sealed (used) multiple times.


Regards.

ay_be_why
19-09-2009, 09:18 PM
thumbs up to 12G for the idea and Denovo for rising to the occasion. that's what PG is all about...

12GAUGE
19-09-2009, 09:31 PM
thumbs up to 12G for the idea and Denovo for rising to the occasion. that's what PG is all about...


Thanks bro, all the credit goes to Denovo Bhai for his generosity.

Regards.

saudghaus
02-11-2009, 10:17 AM
i have a question. whats the best method to store a gun if its taken out for use every six months or so. if its well oiled n stored wrapped in cellophane or something similar, then it takes some time to get it cleaned before it can be used. is'nt there a better way to store it. like which parts are vital to oil and exactly how much oil is good enough.

also, my shotgun seems to have gotten some rust on the end of the barrel. i've tried scrubbing it with an oil soaked cloth, and with wd40. it doesnt come off. is there any way to get rid of the rust? and any way to keep the same part from rusting again?

any help would be appreciated guys.

Jillanik
21-01-2010, 11:18 AM
I have been using "Browning" long storage lubricating oil without any problem. Purchased one from Orient Traders Lahore for Rs. 1200.

Pashasahab
10-04-2010, 01:23 AM
Sir... can you guide me how can i get these bags in islamabad.

I need at least 5. 10 would be just great!

And I am willing to pay the price!

Nazim Sahib
16-06-2010, 12:14 PM
most effective thing is grease.I travel abroad often most often in the summers.the most effective thing is grease when you unpack it and clean it it would be as good as new.a good cobination of ordinary gun oil and grease should make it last for years for storage.

PUNJTANI5
11-07-2010, 07:31 PM
very nice and effective way to keep guns for long term storage

do u know that u can use 3 - 5 layers of this tube put gun and silica gel with some ammo in this tube and then seal then another tube then seal making atleast five seals individually and then bury the gun for long time and after even 10 yrs the guns will be as good as new

an uncle did this in 2000 and last month he dug out the gun and it was still fresh when it was unearthed and pulled out of the bag
i am witness to all this proceedure