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Sensei
30-08-2009, 05:40 AM
Asalam o elekum Brothers

very first post and very first experience all the topics at Pakguns
are wonderful to read,very high class of information infact,is there anyone who could comments on Springfield xdm vs NP34
or Np 22,and thier prises as well Thanks

Regards
Sensei

Denovo87
30-08-2009, 09:17 AM
Welcome Sensei, I don't think we have Springfeild Armoury products available in Pakistan.

Dr Zakir
30-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Right denovo springfield is not available here . More over there is no comparision between the two. Springfield is like a glock

Conceal Carry
30-08-2009, 10:22 AM
XD guns are discussed in detail in this thread.

http://www.pakguns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1687

KageFox
30-08-2009, 10:48 AM
Welcome to the forum, Sensei. Unfortunately, I doubt that we have Springfield Armory guns in Pakistan. Which is a pity, as their 1911s are very good, as well as their XD, which beats Glock in some aspects.

Dr Zakir
30-08-2009, 02:06 PM
oh yess 1911 :P

XMen
30-08-2009, 02:21 PM
No comparision between two of them and offcourse springfield is not available in Pak

KageFox
30-08-2009, 02:25 PM
Some eye-candy for SA fans:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1235/15847577.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9794/47540019.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1962/48069318.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Sensei
30-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Well thanks to all who reply my question ok its fine one product

could not be discussed when not available,so if change it from

the taurus 24/7 pro S.Steel vs np 34 or 22,so which one would

be better choice thanks

KageFox
30-08-2009, 03:31 PM
A slight glitch here. The Taurus 24/7 is available, but strangely enough, it is not reliable with the ammo we use here. Then again, there are people in this forum who absolutely adore the gun. I think it matters of the piece you got was good or bad.

I personally would opt for an NP-34 (exposed hammer, compact version of NP-22).

One more thing: the 24/7 in .45ACP has better reports.

Sensei
30-08-2009, 07:09 PM
thanks Kage can post any pic of np 22 compact??is it differ from

the normal np 22
http://www.postimage.org/gx24CR9J.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx24CR9J)

KageFox
30-08-2009, 07:44 PM
By compact version of NP-22, I meant the NP-34

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/633/90735159.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

Dr Zakir
30-08-2009, 10:20 PM
nice pictures xd looks like a cross between glock and cz 75.
sensi go for a baikal viking and if you are into looks as well a taurus 809 has been recommended by azam sahib yo can check the thread he has posted.

KageFox
30-08-2009, 11:05 PM
Dr. Zakir, the XD does mimic the grip angle of a CZ-75, which makes it more suitable for those who find that the Glock doesn't point naturally for them. The new XD (M) also leaves a provision for a thumb safety. The XD was originally built in Croatia under the name of IM Metal HS 2000. Springfield Armory is the sole US importer, and the pistols they sell have a few improvements over the original. The XD is offered in 3 barrel lengths.

12GAUGE
30-08-2009, 11:26 PM
Asalam o elekum Brothers

very first post and very first experience all the topics at Pakguns
are wonderful to read,very high class of information infact,is there anyone who could comments on Springfield xdm vs NP34
or Np 22,and thier prises as well Thanks

Regards
Sensei


AoA Everybody!

dont want to rain on the parade here but I think that NP22 or NP34 are just to imitate the looks of otherwise top notch handguns. I'm no handgun expert but this is how i see it.

If NP22 or NP34 or NZ75 or NZ85 were that good then why china had to come up with a truly indeginously developed firearm (CF98) for its military? think about it. why spend so much money on research and development, why spend so much time and effort developing a truly original design, why spend time testing and improving it? why not simply adopt an already proven and well respected designs of SIG and CZ, specially when they have the manufacturing experience of cloning those well respected designs. why spend time/money/resources in developing a design when already they are producing copies/clones of SIG or CZ?

hmm.... may be cause those clones are there to imitate the looks, not the performance. may be those clones are made to give the customers satisfaction of owning something similar to a SIG or CZ, the customer which otherwise can not afford an original SIG or CZ.

Regards.

Ilyas
30-08-2009, 11:57 PM
@12gauge... woow Bro, really impressive and logically a very good point raised.
Probably our new expert on Chinese Handguns n ammo would be taimikhan... coz he
seems to have sound knowledge about these. Let's see what he says about the point you've raised :)

And BTW I think it's time to change your nick to '12gauge+9mm' now :D

Sensei
31-08-2009, 12:24 AM
make something like Sig or any famouse brand means that,that thing is not for performance??????and just for poor customer`s
satisfaction who could not afford original brands???

Make original chinese brand for their army is maybe not difficult
to understand or is it? it is simple the first is for commercialism
and the second for Nationalism and thats all,this is what I understand,no question of performance or quality etc

Sensei
31-08-2009, 12:27 AM
thanks Kagefox for pix of np 34

Enigmatic Desires
31-08-2009, 04:07 AM
I agree with baara guage .. I had never really seen it from that point of view.

The CF-98 is inexpensive.. accurate and and indigenous developed.. Good enough for me ..

12GAUGE
31-08-2009, 04:55 AM
I agree with baara guage .. I had never really seen it from that point of view.

The CF-98 is inexpensive.. accurate and and indigenous developed.. Good enough for me ..


one more thing buddy, when singapore police, hong kong police and Bangladesh forces were looking for a standard issue sidearm why didnt they look into NP22, NP34, NZ75/85. you know? if u'r gonna import u might as well import a well proven/trusted/respected design instead of choosing a relatively new design (CF98) with no previous/significant track record or history. think about it, if u gonna equip ur forces, u'll always rely on a proven design instead of betting ur money on a new design.

I'm that "follow the military sorta person", if a military decides to adopt a design. there must be a pretty good reason as military spendings are huge and equiping a whole army requires alotta funds and is not something easy to do. similarly military standards firearms are usually adopted for a very long span of time. it never like "lets do this for now, next year we'll adopt something else". therefore such a decision is never taken on a whim. alotta thought process goes into such decisions.

Regards.

p.s. if u look back into the history pages u'll find the most reliable/respected small arms designs were infact born out of military needs. Beretta, glock both got their fame when U.S military/police adopted them. nobody knew SIG before U.S navy seals adopted them, infact SIG was previously introduced by browning but failed to muster any support from the public.

Sensei
31-08-2009, 05:15 AM
so,it means cf 98 is better then np 34 or np 22??as I know that cf 98 is not made by Norinco,the same gun is made by norinco
as NP 42,and its repots are better then CF 98,and what about QSZ 92?

Enigmatic Desires
31-08-2009, 05:19 AM
To the best of my knowledge Norinco outsources its gun making as well as a lot of other industries.. It handles exports the world over.

I like the fit and finish of the norinco . and wiht desi clones getting more an more expensive and chinese cf 98 getting less an less expensive they were goin to overlap sooner or later.

I saw a stoeger cougher for 30K local made. in Karachi. an I saw a cf for the same price..


The cf is going to be my next gun

12GAUGE
31-08-2009, 05:22 AM
so,it means cf 98 is better then np 34 or np 22??as I know that cf 98 is not made by Norinco,the same gun is made by norinco
as NP 42,and its repots are better then CF 98,and what about QSZ 92?

CF98 stands for CHANG-FENG 98, it was designed and produced only by CHONGQING CHANG-FENG MACHINE MANUFACTURING, its a state owned arms factory, the largest pistol and submachine gun making facility in China. almost exclusively, all military CF98 pistols are produced here (under the military designation QSZ92). this company also makes mitsubishi licensed SUVs (pajero) and currently in a bid to buy U.S. HUMMER company. wow! thats what i'm talking about.

most people think that norinco actually produces these weapons. well, no, NORINCO is a state owned company that buys stuff from other chinese state owned companies for export purposes. they can produce an exclusive item under their logo but all production is carried out at the contracted companies. whole scheme is quiet similar to Baikal of Russia, since China to some extent still operates as the old communist USSR.

Norinco used to buy CF98 from this company under the designation Norinco NP42 and Norinco CF98 (two versions for export diversification, otherwise absolutely same thing), stamp their logo on it and export it (similar to Baikal, its just an export name). however after the imposition of export embargo on Norinco (its name popped up in an illegal arms deal), many export oriented companies were created (on similar setup such as norinco and baikal) to work around the embargo and Entercon was one of them. just like norinco, its just an export name. the company (CHANG-FENG MACHINE MANUFACTURING) that designed the CF98 is still the only company engaged in its production.

a common perception (appropriate word would be "wrong perception") is that NP42 offers higher barrel life, guys! that just hearsay. standard barrel life (in terms of accuracy) of NP42 and CF98 were both originally calculated around 10,000 as they are both essentially the same weapon system. whereas the manufacturer only guarantees 8,000 rounds to be safe.

Regards

MHMalik
31-08-2009, 05:54 AM
I thought all chinese looked the same?

A clone is a clone is a clone. Its like.. plaigarism.

Even if its claimed to be better than the original.. Chappa is a chappa.. I dont get what one is thinking when opting for one..

I mean, a good firearm is like a jewel for us guys.. you pay for craftsmanship.. finish.. reliability.. and most importantly (for me at least).. appreciation for design originality. why tot a cheap knockoff? Reminds me of that nike swoosh sign that was a fad on everything back in the day.. even cars had them

I'm not saying go buy a 300000 weapon or a glock beretta etc.. lots of original reliable good looking designs are selling for reasonable amount.. (insert your favorite weapon with original design here in the 35-65k range)

Please remember I am not bashing chinese pistols in particular nor their owners.. I just want to know the rationale behind sale of such cloned weapons and then saying they're better than the original..

Conceal Carry
31-08-2009, 06:30 AM
It's a photocopy of Glock.



nice pictures xd looks like a cross between glock and cz 75.
sensi go for a baikal viking and if you are into looks as well a taurus 809 has been recommended by azam sahib yo can check the thread he has posted.

Conceal Carry
31-08-2009, 06:32 AM
Makes sense, does'nt it.




Asalam o elekum Brothers

very first post and very first experience all the topics at Pakguns
are wonderful to read,very high class of information infact,is there anyone who could comments on Springfield xdm vs NP34
or Np 22,and thier prises as well Thanks

Regards
Sensei


AoA Everybody!

dont want to rain on the parade here but I think that NP22 or NP34 are just to imitate the looks of otherwise top notch handguns. I'm no handgun expert but this is how i see it.

If NP22 or NP34 or NZ75 or NZ85 were that good then why china had to come up with a truly indeginously developed firearm (CF98) for its military? think about it. why spend so much money on research and development, why spend so much time and effort developing a truly original design, why spend time testing and improving it? why not simply adopt an already proven and well respected designs of SIG and CZ, specially when they have the manufacturing experience of cloning those well respected designs. why spend time/money/resources in developing a design when already they are producing copies/clones of SIG or CZ?

hmm.... may be cause those clones are there to imitate the looks, not the performance. may be those clones are made to give the customers satisfaction of owning something similar to a SIG or CZ, the customer which otherwise can not afford an original SIG or CZ.

Regards.

Dr Zakir
31-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Clones are usually made of those handguns whose design have been time tested . P226 cz 75 1911 beretta even tt are time tested design and perform well that's why thier clones are made . And if the metallurgy is good clone should perform reasonabley well .

12GAUGE
31-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Clones are usually made of those handguns whose design have been time tested . P226 cz 75 1911 beretta even tt are time tested design and perform well that's why thier clones are made . And if the metallurgy is good clone should perform reasonabley well .


I absolutely agree with you Dr. Sahib that if metallurgy is good a clone can be equally good as the original. however can u explain then why China opted for CF98/NP42/QSZ92 for their armed forces instead of a clone built on a time tested design. may be the clones were not upto standard. may be those clones in question were there to just imitate the looks. may be those clones were not designed to be par with their authentic counterparts. otherwise if they were at par i'm sure China would not have invested heavily in developing a new weapon system. instead would have opted to just improve on the metallurgy on clones and Bingo! cheap and readily available supply of highly reliable and durable clones.

Regards.

Enigmatic Desires
31-08-2009, 02:50 PM
The Russians did the same thing..

If some of the most advanced armies in the world dont want to rely on clones. then why should the civilian player be deprived of hte same technology.

KageFox
31-08-2009, 04:09 PM
An independent weapons manufacturing base is a necessity for a country to exist in today's world. Products should be of one's own work and research, and clones should be avoided when equipping armies...

One question: Does Norinco have a license for the clones they make, like POF has a license to manufacture HK weapons (MP5, G3)?

Dr Zakir
31-08-2009, 08:41 PM
Chineese have basically made qsz 92 which is a new calibre 5.8 and chineese army is using this calibre hence was a requirement for a new pistol built around that calibre and later cf 98 a 9mm versioN was made . Mostly now arms coy are devoloping new calibre like FN 5.7 HK 4.7 Chineese 5.8 these are high velocity rounds which are supposed to pierce nomral jackets worn by opponents

MHMalik
31-08-2009, 08:44 PM
Clones are usually made of those handguns whose design have been time tested . P226 cz 75 1911 beretta even tt are time tested design and perform well that's why thier clones are made . And if the metallurgy is good clone should perform reasonabley well .

I see.. and you do have a point..!

12GAUGE
01-09-2009, 12:19 AM
Chineese have basically made qsz 92 which is a new calibre 5.8 and chineese army is using this calibre hence was a requirement for a new pistol built around that calibre and later cf 98 a 9mm versioN was made . Mostly now arms coy are devoloping new calibre like FN 5.7 HK 4.7 Chineese 5.8 these are high velocity rounds which are supposed to pierce nomral jackets worn by opponents


ur right regarding the caliber, but then again think of it this way, its alot easier to convert a clone of a famous design into a caliber of choice then to design a new weapon system altogether.

in other words, it would have been alot easier converting 9mm Norinco NP22/34 or NZ75/85 into 5.8mm NP22/34 or NZ75/85. however china opted for the difficult and more expensive route of developing a new weapon system (QSZ92/NP42/CF98).

its alot easier to convert the caliber of any weapon system rather than developing a new weapon system for the new caliber.

Regards.

Sensei
01-09-2009, 01:42 AM
well,very nice information on Norinco, brothers I am going to

change my local 9mm next month,at first I was intrested in

Taurus 24/7 pro,but now I chaned my mind my range is 50K

Norinco 34 or 22 were also in my wish list,but finally I am in

Stoeger couger`s favour very beautiful gun experts are

requested to suggest thanking you all

12GAUGE
01-09-2009, 01:54 AM
well,very nice information on Norinco, brothers I am going to

change my local 9mm next month,at first I was intrested in

Taurus 24/7 pro,but now I chaned my mind my range is 50K

Norinco 34 or 22 were also in my wish list,but finally I am in

Stoeger couger`s favour very beautiful gun experts are

requested to suggest thanking you all


Stoeger Cougar seems like a good handgun, there are good reviews of the said handgun all over the internet.

Regards

Enigmatic Desires
01-09-2009, 01:59 AM
In fact I would venture to say that I have yet to read or hear anything bad bout this gun anywhere.. Only a few days back I met some1 who had 1 of those. he swore by it.

Sensei
01-09-2009, 03:24 AM
well ED may be you read at firiringline,yes some one has complaint rearding its trigger which not good in D/A but ok in S/A
this is the only thing I have found against couger otherwise the reviewas all over the net are very positive,so you would suggest me to go with Norinco?

12GAUGE
01-09-2009, 03:38 AM
well ED may be you read at firiringline,yes some one has complaint rearding its trigger which not good in D/A but ok in S/A
this is the only thing I have found against couger otherwise the reviewas all over the net are very positive,so you would suggest me to go with Norinco?


dude, u'r basically looking for a budget handgun, one thing I know about budget guns is that u have to sacrifice somewhere. the trick is to find the product that best fullfills ur needs rather than finding a perfect product. up the ante (increase ur budget) and u'll find guns that demand lesser and lesser sacrifice from the purchaser. up the ante alot if u want to have a gun that demands no sacrifice whatsoever.

Regards

Sensei
01-09-2009, 03:39 AM
Dear ED and 12 Gauge plz see this link if intrested,I become intrested when I have seen ED post at market place/prices at karachi market and I really like this compact berreta type

http://hueysgunsight.blogspot.com/2008/05/stoeger-cougar-8000-9mm-beretta-on.html

MHMalik
01-09-2009, 04:25 AM
Most top end handguns have a perceived bad D/A pull because the best Double Action cannot compare to a Single Action pull. Double Action is for safety more than anything in a stressful situation when adrenaline comes to play. That is why most Police Departments prefer Double Action only or similar type of pull for their service weapons, i.e to prevent accidental discharge in stressful situation OR where keeping a weapon on safe is not a viable/ feasible option.

A bad first Double Action should not be THE deciding factor when purchasing a D/A S/A firearm since the first shot will most probably go awry in the first place as you are engaging the threat. Its the subsequent single action shots that count. Now if it has a horrible Single Action trigger than I would humbly suggest you look elsewhere.

Also dont believe everything you read on the internet because as they say.. Net is a place where women are men and teenage boys are FBI agents.. hehe.

I recommend you go and try out all the firearms that you are considering.. preferably at the range. I'm sure one of our esteemed PAKGUNS members in your area would be happy to oblige. See which one you shoot better.

On a non serious note.. Do buy a good looking firearm from your list. Because triggers can get a trigger job.. feeding ramps can be machined/polished. Not much you can do with ugly. :)

May you get the firearm that you will enjoy using and may it give you years of shooting pleasure.

Stay safe

Sensei
01-09-2009, 04:51 AM
I would like to ask all friends but specially to Abbas bhai and ED

that what is the pricing criteria in Pakistan? ED told us after his

market survey that stoeger couger is available at Khi for 50k as

it costs 370 US dollars every where,it is fine but Glock 17 costs

for 530 US and Berreta storm for 550 US so why these 2 are so

expensive here no less then 3 lacks?the difference in US dollars

are not as big as their prices in our market .

KageFox
01-09-2009, 05:01 AM
Sir, Pakistan in under an arms embargo from US and most of Europe. Which makes brands like Glock, S&W, Beretta, H&K, Walther, etc pretty expensive. On the other hand, Stoeger Cougar is made in Turkey, and Taurus originates from Brazil, hence they are a cheaper price compared to American and European brands.

Sensei
01-09-2009, 05:07 AM
Dear 12 gauge and MHMalik sahib,very nice to read your wise

advise,thank you very much for telling me the best to do,I am

really greatful to you both gentlemen,by the way you both and

me too on the Net??hope word gentlemen is correctly used LOL

Sensei
01-09-2009, 05:15 AM
Thanks alots Kagefox

MHMalik
01-09-2009, 06:04 AM
Glad to be of service kind sir!

12GAUGE
01-09-2009, 01:46 PM
your are welcome buddy!

Enigmatic Desires
01-09-2009, 03:33 PM
well ED may be you read at firiringline,yes some one has complaint rearding its trigger which not good in D/A but ok in S/A
this is the only thing I have found against couger otherwise the reviewas all over the net are very positive,so you would suggest me to go with Norinco?


No quite frankly I have no expereince wiht the N series of norrinco weaponry .. I do know that the N34 is regarded as an excellent CZ 75 clone. but I subscribe to 12 Guage's idea that an original gun spacificaly made for the PLA (people's liberation Army) would be far better then any clone.

I have handled the CF 98. It also has the same rotating barrel as the cougher. highly accurate and controllable.. same capacity. And small enough for CC. If budget is tight its a gr8 gun to buy. other wise the cougher has better grips.

The DA shot is only hte 1st one anyway.. I don't remember (there been so many guns at the shop) But I think I dry fired it and found the DA trigger as sweet as the SA one.

U can always check in the shop if the piece U buy has the trigger U like

Enigmatic Desires
01-09-2009, 03:42 PM
Dear ED and 12 Gauge plz see this link if intrested,I become intrested when I have seen ED post at market place/prices at karachi market and I really like this compact berreta type

http://hueysgunsight.blogspot.com/2008/05/stoeger-cougar-8000-9mm-beretta-on.html


i read the review.. my an large this is what the gun is al about. I am waiting for the "tactical" version to hit our shores. that 1 has a picattinny rail for lasers and other accessories