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OnTarget9
26-07-2009, 03:25 AM
Greetings!

I am looking to acquire a ‘concealed carry’ (for SD and sport) 9mm pistol that is reliable, accurate and safe. I would welcome your views/advice.

I would prefer something that can be carried in an ankle holster. If the Glock 19 were not so obscenely overpriced in Pak, I would have preferred that. At the moment, I am thinking of Stoeger Cougar. Though, I am not sure if it would work with an ankle holster (any views on that?). What would be better alternatives in your opinion?.

I do not want to spend too much over a 100K but can be flexible.

-----------------------

Any views on availability in Karachi (of Stoeger or others that you may recommend) and price would be very welcome, as well.
Also, what ammo would you recommend (Chinese/POF/other?). I anticipate shooting 300-400 rounds a month so nothing too expensive, yet don’t want to damage gun (or lose a finger), either.

-------------------------
PS In 9mm handguns, I only have experience (about 1500 rounds) with a CZ 75 and was happy with its accuracy and recoil.
PPS Just out of curiosity, what is the price of a Glock 19 or 26 in Pak? What is availability like?

Thanks.

MHMalik
26-07-2009, 05:23 AM
Is ankle holster a strong preference or are you open to other suggestions?

IMHO it is wayyy over rated and far from ideal.. like a last resort.. and it is in a dust loving area (especially in our country) and you would certainly not want a semi auto in a position there.. if so go for revolver.. air lite sort of thing.)

Glock 19 is one of the LEAST over priced guns available here.. i would suggest grrab em while you can..

Stoeger Cougar.. dont own one yet.. but am also looking to get one as a beater.. but have heard good things..
However I dont think it would fit easily in the ankle.. ( you may want to see sub compacts for that).. It IS bulky..

Incidentally.. what is your rough body size, height, build, hand size etc? That would help us in helping you out..

Glock 26 I have heard nothing but good things about it..

Glock 19 is a great all rounder and is balanced and reliable.. but you either love it or hate it..

There is a Taurus I saw ... Titanium one.. Millenium something.. It felt nice to hold and light.. but I would let the Taurus experts handle this one.. dont go for this on my advice as I cannot give you a view on its performance.. Though I'm sure our knowledge banks would be sure to help you out..

Also... Norinco TT type things are quite slim.. and the criminals first choice of concealed carry.. and they seem to be doing pretty well with it.. so why not!

Lastly.. The HOLSTER choice is more important than the handgun.. a good holster can conceal even full sized weapons..

Try to find a single stack 9mm compact if you can.. I think thats the best option for total concealed carry..

If you can afford it.. get a glock.. you cant go wrong with it.. but if its not your first handgun, it WILL take time to get used to its weird steep grip angle.. See the market place section on this website for approx price of both the Glocks..

For bullets.. I have always used POF for practice.. and they've always worked.. (except once I tried some sten gun ones made in 1950s.. some of them were duds.. but most still worked!). However my friends at Pakguns got me to try Chinese and They worked equally well and a lot cleaner I must admit..

I would say stay away from local unbranded ones and you'll do just fine.. HOWEVER make sure your gun likes ammo.. Even the best guns dislike particular brands so fire a good number of different ammo to see which suits your jewel the best..

In the end I would say Happy Shopping and Happy Shooting.. (preferably NOT TOGETHER!!!) j/k :D

OnTarget9
26-07-2009, 05:49 AM
Thank you. My answers are in red. Appreciate you help.

Is ankle holster a strong preference or are you open to other suggestions? No. Desirable not mandatory

IMHO it is wayyy over rated and far from ideal.. like a last resort.. and it is in a dust loving area (especially in our country) and you would certainly not want a semi auto in a position there.. if so go for revolver.. air lite sort of thing.)

Glock 19 is one of the LEAST over priced guns available here.. i would suggest grrab em while you can..It appears to be a really good piece of equipment. It is just that the PKR versus the USD price does not stack up, export restrictions notwithstanding

Stoeger Cougar.. dont own one yet.. but am also looking to get one as a beater.. but have heard good things..
However I dont think it would fit easily in the ankle.. ( you may want to see sub compacts for that).. It IS bulky..I don't suppose there is a compact version of the Cougar?

Incidentally.. what is your rough body size, height, build, hand size etc? That would help us in helping you out..6'2"; 90 kilos; hands not disproportionately large or small

Glock 26 I have heard nothing but good things about it..

Glock 19 is a great all rounder and is balanced and reliable.. but you either love it or hate it..

There is a Taurus I saw ... Titanium one.. Millenium something.. It felt nice to hold and light.. but I would let the Taurus experts handle this one.. dont go for this on my advice as I cannot give you a view on its performance.. Though I'm sure our knowledge banks would be sure to help you out..Some Taurus models appear to have reliability issues which has put me off them

Also... Norinco TT type things are quite slim.. and the criminals first choice of concealed carry.. and they seem to be doing pretty well with it.. so why not!Fair enough. Are they reliable and durable (given the reasonable price)?

Lastly.. The HOLSTER choice is more important than the handgun.. a good holster can conceal even full sized weapons..What sort of a holster would you recommend? Given that, in all probability, one would have to order it over the internet without being able to physically check it out it would be a bit of a lucky dip, I suppose.

Try to find a single stack 9mm compact if you can.. I think thats the best option for total concealed carry.. Any suggestions given local availability? What is the number of rounds a single stack compact would normally hold?

If you can afford it.. get a glock.. you cant go wrong with it.. but if its not your first handgun, it WILL take time to get used to its weird steep grip angle.. See the market place section on this website for approx price of both the Glocks..Unlikely....until the EU ban comes off or some 'smart' trader in Dubai figures out a way to bring them in at a reasonable mark-up

For bullets.. I have always used POF for practice.. and they've always worked.. (except once I tried some sten gun ones made in 1950s.. some of them were duds.. but most still worked!). However my friends at Pakguns got me to try Chinese and They worked equally well and a lot cleaner I must admit..

I would say stay away from local unbranded ones and you'll do just fine.. HOWEVER make sure your gun likes ammo.. Even the best guns dislike particular brands so fire a good number of different ammo to see which suits your jewel the best..

In the end I would say Happy Shopping and Happy Shooting.. (preferably NOT TOGETHER!!!) j/k Thanks. And, I will try to fight the temptation :)

Dr Zakir
26-07-2009, 11:57 AM
if money is not a problem then go for a glock 19 . dont compare prices with usa . prices depend upon availability glock 19 are not that common and hence on principle of supply and demand price is more as you see if you are looking for HK or SIG s you have to pay an extra 150k to 200k as they are more uncommon then even glocks . do you know initially when taruses came they were also sold in the range of 250k to 300k now as they are freely available price has dropped

Dr Zakir
26-07-2009, 11:58 AM
you will never regret buying a glock and you can sell it very easily when ever you want to dispose it off

KageFox
26-07-2009, 01:04 PM
Try a compact CZ-75 Clone (eg. Sarsilmaz B6C)

For an ankle holster gun, go for a Taurus snubbie revolver, preferably a .357 mag (can be loaded with .38 Special for lower recoil)

If you're into it, shoulder holsters or inside waistband holsters are good conceal carry options.

CougarMan
26-07-2009, 02:54 PM
you cannot carry a cougar or a glock 19 sized pistol in an ankle. probably the best is one of the 5 shot S&W revolvers. Having said that, ankle carry is very difficult and uncomfortable on a regular basis. Not to mention that you have to bend down to get your weapon. Stick with belt carry.

Glocky
26-07-2009, 03:26 PM
Glock 26 hands down, the only weapon available here that you can easily conceal carry in that calibre. Ankle holsters only look cool but suck in practicality even with a Glock 26. IMO save money and get one weapon you can depend on under any circumstances, rather than getting three which are all compromises. I carry a Glock 26 and its my only carry weapon, alongwith extra mags :)

Rizshu
26-07-2009, 04:23 PM
just go for Taurus 909/911 9mm. in karachi you will get it in between 60k and an excellent piece which worth your money.

Rizshu
26-07-2009, 04:25 PM
Taurus 909/911. fits in ankul holsters, belt holestor, and even all the places between 12'O clock to 6'O clock on you in a CC maner.

KageFox
26-07-2009, 06:14 PM
Isn't the 909/911 a tad too large for ankles? You would need big feet, I suppose :P

Though it is extremely good for belt holsters

OnTarget9
26-07-2009, 09:16 PM
Thank you, all. Appreciate your comments. Where possible, it would be great if you could indicate (even rough) prices and availability in Karachi (more generally in terms of whether it is easy to get hold of rather than specific dealers though that would be really helpful).

@Dr Zakir – Doc, may sound odd but I won’t pay what is, in my view, a wholly unnecessary premium. I understand what you are saying about supply and demand. I can only hope that supply will loosen up, eventually.

@KageFox – Sarsilmaz B6C is about the same size as Glock 17 which makes it a bit big for CC, does it not?
I like your recommendation of getting a small revolver which can handle both .357 and .38 (for ankle carry). Did you have any particular model in mind? How about availability/price?

@CougarMan – Any specific S&W? Again price/availability indication would be helpful.

@ Glocky – I would be more comfortable with 2 – just in case.

@ rizshu and KageFox – Took a look at Taurus USA website. Couldn’t find 909/911 though it features both 909 and 911. And, these do not appear to be much smaller than a Stoeger. Taurus guns look good but reviews are inconsistent (albeit across different models) whereas I have not come across anything bad about Stoeger Cougar and I value robustness more.


Once again, thank you for your views. Keep them coming. At the moment, I am thinking Stoeger (waist) + small revolver (ankle) capable of shooting both .357 and .38

KageFox
26-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Not really sure about revolver models and prices available in Pakistan, but there are a few Taurus options. All .357 Magnum revolvers can be chambered with .38Specail. Just remember to thoroughly clean the cylinder holes after shooting .38s. Otherwise, there can be a lead buildup which can damage your revolver.

I think you misunderstand "909/911" (there is no such model), which means 909 OR 911. I did a size comparison a few days back with figures quoted from the sites of the respective manufacturers. The PT911 is about the same size as the Cougar. IMHO the safety on the Taurus is better placed than on Cougar, which in itself is a fine pistol.

Sorry, wasn't really sure about the B6C size. I thought it would be "compact"; just checked and I was woefully wrong.

If your heart isn't set on ankle holster carry, you could also consider the Norinco-made Sig clones (NP-34) or the Taurus PT111, 24/7 Compact or PT609, all of which are well in your budget.

Best of luck in your search.

StevenCline
27-07-2009, 02:25 AM
Greetings!

I am looking to acquire a ‘concealed carry’ (for SD and sport) 9mm pistol that is reliable, accurate and safe. I would welcome your views/advice.

I would prefer something that can be carried in an ankle holster. If the Glock 19 were not so obscenely overpriced in Pak, I would have preferred that. At the moment, I am thinking of Stoeger Cougar. Though, I am not sure if it would work with an ankle holster (any views on that?). What would be better alternatives in your opinion?.

I do not want to spend too much over a 100K but can be flexible.

-----------------------

Any views on availability in Karachi (of Stoeger or others that you may recommend) and price would be very welcome, as well.
Also, what ammo would you recommend (Chinese/POF/other?). I anticipate shooting 300-400 rounds a month so nothing too expensive, yet don’t want to damage gun (or lose a finger), either.

-------------------------
PS In 9mm handguns, I only have experience (about 1500 rounds) with a CZ 75 and was happy with its accuracy and recoil.
PPS Just out of curiosity, what is the price of a Glock 19 or 26 in Pak? What is availability like?

Thanks.


I don't know what 100k of your money equals in US dollars. The Kahr CW9 is an option for carry, but may be a bit small for competition. The trigger a bit long and heavy.


It can be purchased for about $425 US.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm.html

Enigmatic Desires
27-07-2009, 02:40 AM
Greetings!

I am looking to acquire a ‘concealed carry’ (for SD and sport) 9mm pistol that is reliable, accurate and safe. I would welcome your views/advice.

I would prefer something that can be carried in an ankle holster. If the Glock 19 were not so obscenely overpriced in Pak, I would have preferred that. At the moment, I am thinking of Stoeger Cougar. Though, I am not sure if it would work with an ankle holster (any views on that?). What would be better alternatives in your opinion?.

I do not want to spend too much over a 100K but can be flexible.

-----------------------

Any views on availability in Karachi (of Stoeger or others that you may recommend) and price would be very welcome, as well.
Also, what ammo would you recommend (Chinese/POF/other?). I anticipate shooting 300-400 rounds a month so nothing too expensive, yet don’t want to damage gun (or lose a finger), either.

-------------------------
PS In 9mm handguns, I only have experience (about 1500 rounds) with a CZ 75 and was happy with its accuracy and recoil.
PPS Just out of curiosity, what is the price of a Glock 19 or 26 in Pak? What is availability like?

Thanks.


I don't know what 100k of your money equals in US dollars. The Kahr CW9 is an option for carry, but may be a bit small for competition. The trigger a bit long and heavy.


It can be purchased for about $425 US.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm.html


(sigh) if only amarican prices were applicable here.. 425 would be around Rs. 35k or so..

100k would be equal to bout $ 1250

Abu Hafs
27-07-2009, 02:45 AM
Can someone let me know if large/medium size frame S&W revolvers are readily/widely available in Pakistan?


If so what would be the going rate for say a .357 with a 4+ inch barrel?

Enigmatic Desires
27-07-2009, 03:17 AM
Taurus .. around 70k onwards. give or take a few k depending on bargaining skills..

S&W. i last saw a .22 meg. It was around 120k . They go on upwards from there..

Abu Hafs
27-07-2009, 04:17 AM
Taurus .. around 70k onwards. give or take a few k depending on bargaining skills..

S&W. i last saw a .22 meg. It was around 120k . They go on upwards from there..


Thanks for the feedback bro






@Dr Zakir – Doc, may sound odd but I won’t pay what is, in my view, a wholly unnecessary premium. I understand what you are saying about supply and demand. I can only hope that supply will loosen up, eventually.





This was the response of one American Glock owner (on the Glock talk forum) upon being told how much a Pakistani guy paid for a Glock.


$4,000 for a Glock? There must be some mistake. Surely you meant something else.

If you did pay $4000 for a Glock, I have one I will sell you, I will even fly over and hand it to you in person.

:lol: :lol:

StevenCline
27-07-2009, 08:27 AM
Greetings!

I am looking to acquire a ‘concealed carry’ (for SD and sport) 9mm pistol that is reliable, accurate and safe. I would welcome your views/advice.

I would prefer something that can be carried in an ankle holster. If the Glock 19 were not so obscenely overpriced in Pak, I would have preferred that. At the moment, I am thinking of Stoeger Cougar. Though, I am not sure if it would work with an ankle holster (any views on that?). What would be better alternatives in your opinion?.

I do not want to spend too much over a 100K but can be flexible.

-----------------------

Any views on availability in Karachi (of Stoeger or others that you may recommend) and price would be very welcome, as well.
Also, what ammo would you recommend (Chinese/POF/other?). I anticipate shooting 300-400 rounds a month so nothing too expensive, yet don’t want to damage gun (or lose a finger), either.

-------------------------
PS In 9mm handguns, I only have experience (about 1500 rounds) with a CZ 75 and was happy with its accuracy and recoil.
PPS Just out of curiosity, what is the price of a Glock 19 or 26 in Pak? What is availability like?

Thanks.


I don't know what 100k of your money equals in US dollars. The Kahr CW9 is an option for carry, but may be a bit small for competition. The trigger a bit long and heavy.


It can be purchased for about $425 US.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm.html


(sigh) if only amarican prices were applicable here.. 425 would be around Rs. 35k or so..

100k would be equal to bout $ 1250

YIKES!

$1250 in US gets you into higher end 1911s and almost every higher end semi-auto.

I suspect it would be illegal so I only say it in jest, but I'd send you my wife's CW9 for $70k Pakistani Rs. I'd double my money and you'd have a great carry gun.

May I deduce that gun guys in Pakistan are... well to do... well off... gainfully employed... rich?

Abu Al Hawl
27-07-2009, 09:43 AM
hey Steven, what is $70k Pakistani Rs. :lol:

Starfish
27-07-2009, 10:06 AM
I don't know what 100k of your money equals in US dollars. The Kahr CW9 is an option for carry, but may be a bit small for competition. The trigger a bit long and heavy.


It can be purchased for about $425 US.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm.html


(sigh) if only amarican prices were applicable here.. 425 would be around Rs. 35k or so..

100k would be equal to bout $ 1250

YIKES!

$1250 in US gets you into higher end 1911s and almost every higher end semi-auto.

I suspect it would be illegal so I only say it in jest, but I'd send you my wife's CW9 for $70k Pakistani Rs. I'd double my money and you'd have a great carry gun.

May I deduce that gun guys in Pakistan are... well to do... well off... gainfully employed... rich?

There are expensive guns, and there are cheap guns :P
Every where in the world, the market finds a way to cater to the weaker buyer as well.
just for a comparison, glocks here are for round 250k average which is 3000 USD :o imagine that. But a Taurus 24/7 goes around 50k which is more like 600 USD. So the parity between prices depends on availability in the market.

Adeel Ahmad
27-07-2009, 11:34 AM
@Steven
yes you can deduce that people in Pakistan are willing to spend more money on their Weapons than on anything else. Take me for an example, i had the choice of buying a Raymond Weil Diamond Watch for $2500 or the Glock 19 for the same price. I bought the Glock 19. As mentioned by starFish, Taurus is available in market for same or around the same price as it is available in USA. That is due to the fact there is no Import Ban from Brazil while you need a special License to import Hand Guns from Europe or USA. Dealers get those Licenses and then import according to the given quota while asking for a premium in the end. If you can send send weapons to Pakistan, it would turn out to be great business for you and everything will be sold right on this Forum.

Adeel Ahmad
27-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Ok now to answer your question. Kindly go through my answers in Bold.


Greetings!

I am looking to acquire a ‘concealed carry’ (for SD and sport) 9mm pistol that is reliable, accurate and safe. I would welcome your views/advice.If you are going for SD/Sport then you dont need a weapon that should be CCW. Your location says Dubai so if you are planning to use it in Pakistan then i would recommend you PT92/99 from Taurus. Its a very tried and tested Hand Gun and i have used it with every kind of ammo without any issues. Other Taurus Hand Guns are Ammo Sensitive.

I would prefer something that can be carried in an ankle holster. If the Glock 19 were not so obscenely overpriced in Pak, I would have preferred that. At the moment, I am thinking of Stoeger Cougar. Though, I am not sure if it would work with an ankle holster (any views on that?). What would be better alternatives in your opinion?.If you are thinking about using an Ankle Holster then you better gear up for a dissapointment as they are nothing but Shashka and that is the end of that. No matter how good is the Ankle Holster, you will not be comfortable with it. Stoeger is not good for Ankle stuff. Othe ralternative is Taurus 609 which is readily available in market for around 50 to 60K but do read my Topic Another Taurus Failure before you make up your mind as again its Ammo Sensitive.

I do not want to spend too much over a 100K but can be flexible.Flexibility to another 10 or 20 K will get you no where so you are btter off buying a Taurus which will cost you much less. Flexibility to around another 100K is a different issue as that will open up many possibilities.

-----------------------

Any views on availability in Karachi (of Stoeger or others that you may recommend) and price would be very welcome, as well.Stoeger and almost all models of Taurus are readily available in Karachi and are priced around the point i mentioned above. You should do some searching when you are shopping
Also, what ammo would you recommend (Chinese/POF/other?). I anticipate shooting 300-400 rounds a month so nothing too expensive, yet don’t want to damage gun (or lose a finger), either.Chinese is your best bet in this regard as its cheap and also doesnt hurt your weapon

-------------------------
PS In 9mm handguns, I only have experience (about 1500 rounds) with a CZ 75 and was happy with its accuracy and recoil.
PPS Just out of curiosity, what is the price of a Glock 19 or 26 in Pak? What is availability like?Glock 19 is avilable from 220 to 275K and its avilability is quite a lot at almost all dealers. Glock 26 is aroound 300 to 340K but its not that easily available at dealers.

Now after all is said and done, my personal recomendation to you just like Dr. Zakir and Glocky is to go for a Glock 26. I own it and you can never go wrong with it. Get a 12 Round Magazine with it and it will be great for CC and also your Sports purpose. But hey this is my opinion. If you are hard pressed for money or dont want to spend 300K on a Hand Gun then you already know what to buy.

A.A

MHMalik
27-07-2009, 12:07 PM
Its like saying one wouldnt pay 10k rs. in Pakistan for a haircut.. but ppl happily pay that to get a good haircut in the states.. you can also get a 5$ haircut..

Does that mean if some pakistani goes to the states, he shouldnt get a haircut?

Why do people who go to the US think that everything is like its in the states..

Pakistan is not the US.. lets deal with it..

Enigmatic Desires
28-07-2009, 12:03 AM
I don't know what 100k of your money equals in US dollars. The Kahr CW9 is an option for carry, but may be a bit small for competition. The trigger a bit long and heavy.


It can be purchased for about $425 US.

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm.html


(sigh) if only amarican prices were applicable here.. 425 would be around Rs. 35k or so..

100k would be equal to bout $ 1250

YIKES!

$1250 in US gets you into higher end 1911s and almost every higher end semi-auto.

I suspect it would be illegal so I only say it in jest, but I'd send you my wife's CW9 for $70k Pakistani Rs. I'd double my money and you'd have a great carry gun.

May I deduce that gun guys in Pakistan are... well to do... well off... gainfully employed... rich?


Just for the record.. 1 $ is 82 rupees

OnTarget9
28-07-2009, 12:25 AM
Thanks, gents.

@KageFox - Thanks. Appreciate your advice.

@StevenCline - If we get enough US based members on this forum perhaps we could persuade them to lobby for lifting of the handgun export ban to Pak. Seems a bit disingenuous, in any case, to ban export of handguns to a country because it has got nukes :-) but that's politics for you. Some handguns (Glocks, for e.g.) are obscenely expensive in Pakistan but on the plus side you can employ a chauffeur for about 60 dollars a month. Beat that :-)

@Adeel Ahmad - Thank you. Really useful advice. I was looking to kill two birds but realise that it is a bit of a trade-off. PT92 is bigger than I would prefer but 911 (suggested by KageFox, above) seems doable. Also, I tend to agree with your views on ankle-carry though it could possibly work with a snub revolver (2" or 3" .357) in line with CougarMan's suggestion.

@MHMalik - Some people get $5 haircuts and look like a million dollars while others spend $50 (in Pakistan) but the expense does not appear justified to the casual observer. Personal choice, I suppose.

Any experience with the following or idea about prices/availability of the 9mm below would be very helpful. I have narrowed it down to these in addition to the (Stoeger) Cougar and (Taurus PT) 911:
CZ 75 P-01
Zastava EZ9 Compact

Adios

Wajahat
28-07-2009, 12:48 AM
hey on target, i wouldnt suggest a stouger cougar to you as it is a bit bulky , price for a new cougar right now , till last week was between 53 k to 55 k, i tried fitting it on an ankle hoslter i didnt work, now in my personal opionion spending 100 k on a back up i.e. concealed weapon wouldnt be wise, i would advise you to pick a LLMA it comes in multiple calibres, i have a llama .32 myself an it is an excellent choice as far as concealiment and saftey is concerned, it has a double locking system plus a unique system behind the butt, you need to supress the lock molded within the grip to actually have the gun to discharge, a LLMA also comes in a .40 calibre and is easily availble between the range of 16 k to 30 k, also there's a choice of having a copy of the compaq russian makarov pistol which is made in china by norinco that you can get its small and is only for 27 k to 30 k for a new one , it'll fit into an ankle hoslter plus it is .30 calibre which is by far more powerful then a 9mm, be advised a 9mm wouldnt really be a good choice for a concealed weapon ( as it is very common in karachi for murders) having a verstile weapon as a concealed weapon would be a very wise choice, none the less you should try having a look at the Taurus Model 651 CIA, i have used this personally and let me tell you it had been nothing but sheer pleasure, the Taurus Model 651 Protector is 5 Round 357 Mag, 2" Barrel , and the calibre it self is very powerful, you can get this in a good condition for roughly around 75 k to 80 k and i believe a new one is for 95 k plus

Enigmatic Desires
28-07-2009, 01:10 AM
The mac is .30 ? :o

Wajahat
28-07-2009, 01:18 AM
i saw .30 mak at ALHARIS traders saddar, it was a copy ofcourse

Abbas
28-07-2009, 07:21 PM
Welcome to PakGuns OnTarget9.

+1 to the Taurus 909/911 and the Stoeger Cougar. Both are excellent, ideal for CC and reliable. If I was to choose only one then I would go with the 909. Prices for both in Lahore are around 50k. Since your budget is 100 K, buy both perhaps ? ;)

@ Steven Prices for European and American weapons in Pakistan are insane due to export restrictions. Chinese, South American and Far Eastern weapons are often cheaper than in the U.S though. And yes since guns are an expensive hobby in Pakistan most people on this forum are financially stable.

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2009, 01:16 AM
i saw .30 mak at ALHARIS traders saddar, it was a copy ofcourse


I dunno if a .30 cartridge stuffed into a simple blow back design is a good idea or not..

The original 9mm mac firing the 9mm mac. cartridge is a great lill gun for CCW.. In fact it was the first gun I ever handled in my life...

If CCW is the need an a robust an reliable pistol is the requirement.. The Mac the gun to have. So much so that the red army used it as their standard infantry side arm.

Dr Zakir
29-07-2009, 01:20 AM
glad to see you back on forum Abbas . hope you had pleasent vacations.

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 01:20 AM
agreed enigmatic, i will get some more info on this copy from Haris and may be even post a pic of it soon

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2009, 01:23 AM
agreed enigmatic, i will get some more info on this copy from Haris and may be even post a pic of it soon

Please. I know our artisans have a penchant for stuffing .30 calibre rounds in many popular gun makes. But this is the first time I have heard of a .30 round in the comparatively diminutive mac.

Any idea what is the price of this peice?

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 01:32 AM
he was asking for 27 k from a customer , i have good terms with him through a political affiliatem he was giving me the same thing for 23 K, i ended up buying a different weapon, but yes the Mac did raise my eye brows

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2009, 01:35 AM
he was asking for 27 k from a customer , i have good terms with him through a political affiliatem he was giving me the same thing for 23 K, i ended up buying a different weapon, but yes the Mac did raise my eye brows


Yeah. Al harris have a tendency of over charging from people they dont know. that's why i only go there to check prices...

I assume the weapon has the same capacity as the original mac.

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 01:39 AM
enigmatic u wud be surprised to see what our boyz from the darra have created, i saw 1st copies of beretta, CZ 100, taurus 247 pro, i was shocked to see a copy of the COLT anaconda even and let me tell u some thing more, i met a guy during a wedding, we were all engaged in an ariel firing spree, he had a copy of an uzi machine pistol, and it was completely automatic, now i had a friend who happens to be expert , a real pro with weapons with me and he was dumb struck with the amount of perfection in the design, he couldnt really differentiate between the original and the copy, the only thing that gave it away was a small drawing of a deer on the body of the gun :D the owner of this gun told me had his gun made from some USTAD guy in darra adam khel and he had paid 40 K for it, the mechanism involved inside the gun was actually israeli made components the body and the trigger and the magazine was made out of a metal called SAI or SAAHEE i think.

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 01:48 AM
i didnt actually go in to that much details, as haris's worker shaukat was busy HALALOFYING the bakra, i thought it was best to stay away , coming back to haris traders them self, these guys have a tendency of overcharging just about every one, these guys are actually the lords of war in lucky star arms market, you will not beleive it , but yes HARIS is the guy who actually manipulated the pricings for the stoger cougar, the same gun is available for 45 k in lhr, and in karachi it sells for around 55 k , he offered the same gun to me for 53 after i refered him to a friend, and he sold the same thing to me for 47 after i directed him to one of my political affiliates who happens to be haris's top customer and also his contact in the local governing body. so you see how much over charging he actually does? and here's the fun fact the stoger cougar is actually for 32 K once it is imported, and that is after all the import duties are paid off, the price hike is purely because they weapon is being imported by a whole seller, then it goes to a distributors and then to retailers like small shops, mind you Alharis is both an importer and a distrucbutor

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2009, 02:12 AM
:o an yet he charges the highest!!.

i have seen small shops charging much lesser then he does.. 1st time I ewent to buy a fire arm al Hariss was the one most recommanded to me by jut bout al the political big shots as the "the' place to buy..

But after doin the rounds of hte market. I realized there is no way I was goin to pay 74k for a 24/7 that was available for 51!!

When I haggled. he bought the price down to 73 and that it full stop!!

As regars local weapons. i am a gr8 aficionado of the same.

U can buy unique combination not available else where. as u mentioned the mac available in full power .30!

i bet even Mr. Makarov himself would do a complete double take on that one! :P

The main reason I did'nt like the .30 was cause it was only available in a TT....

But now I think I'l get one as a berreta 92 F. If the open slide reliability of the original is anything to go by.. I think a decent clone should do pretty well..

The question is which clone to go for...

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 02:15 AM
are you online right now brother? may be we could chat or actually talk ?

Enigmatic Desires
29-07-2009, 02:28 AM
are you online right now brother? may be we could chat or actually talk ?


sure
lightyaar@hotmail.com

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 02:37 AM
delete the msg too bro and the # wud vanish

Wajahat
29-07-2009, 02:43 AM
the silver one was a clone we got from peshawer it costs 18 k there


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1160/57240807.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

MOLAjat
29-07-2009, 07:49 AM
If you are interested in compact gun then go for MAKAROV or walther ppk. I own both and both are compact and reliable guns. PPK is so small that you can even carry it in side pocket although it is .32 cal but can be very effective at close range.

StevenCline
29-07-2009, 09:12 AM
hey Steven, what is $70k Pakistani Rs. :lol:
I think I clearly showed my ignorance, but I learned. I went to a web-page to learn both the proper term for the money used in Pakistan (rupee) and the exchange rate.

I am less ignorant now.

StevenCline
29-07-2009, 09:17 AM
@Steven
yes you can deduce that people in Pakistan are willing to spend more money on their Weapons than on anything else. Take me for an example, i had the choice of buying a Raymond Weil Diamond Watch for $2500 or the Glock 19 for the same price. I bought the Glock 19. As mentioned by starFish, Taurus is available in market for same or around the same price as it is available in USA. That is due to the fact there is no Import Ban from Brazil while you need a special License to import Hand Guns from Europe or USA. Dealers get those Licenses and then import according to the given quota while asking for a premium in the end. If you can send send weapons to Pakistan, it would turn out to be great business for you and everything will be sold right on this Forum.

Import ban!?!? That stinks! Everyone should be able to buy a Glock for about $600 US.

That also makes my suggestion on the Kahr almost silly- are Kahr's also very expensive?

StevenCline
29-07-2009, 09:22 AM
@StevenCline - If we get enough US based members on this forum perhaps we could persuade them to lobby for lifting of the handgun export ban to Pak. Seems a bit disingenuous, in any case, to ban export of handguns to a country because it has got nukes :-) but that's politics for you. Some handguns (Glocks, for e.g.) are obscenely expensive in Pakistan but on the plus side you can employ a chauffeur for about 60 dollars a month. Beat that :-)

I was not aware of the reason why the US banned export of firearms to Pakistan. I would have guessed it was driven by anti-gun persons looking for just another way to restrict gun ownership. Many are not satisfied with simply disarming their neighbors in the US, but want to inflict that helplessness on the world.

$60 a month... good price! :lol:

StevenCline
29-07-2009, 09:30 AM
Any experience with the following or idea about prices/availability of the 9mm below would be very helpful. I have narrowed it down to these in addition to the (Stoeger) Cougar and (Taurus PT) 911:
CZ 75 P-01
Zastava EZ9 Compact


I have shot both the CZ 75 SP-01 and the Taurus PT 1911. I live the CZ better. Both were good, but I believe the CZ was probably a little better built.

Adeel Ahmad
29-07-2009, 10:25 AM
@Steven
yes you can deduce that people in Pakistan are willing to spend more money on their Weapons than on anything else. Take me for an example, i had the choice of buying a Raymond Weil Diamond Watch for $2500 or the Glock 19 for the same price. I bought the Glock 19. As mentioned by starFish, Taurus is available in market for same or around the same price as it is available in USA. That is due to the fact there is no Import Ban from Brazil while you need a special License to import Hand Guns from Europe or USA. Dealers get those Licenses and then import according to the given quota while asking for a premium in the end. If you can send send weapons to Pakistan, it would turn out to be great business for you and everything will be sold right on this Forum.

Import ban!?!? That stinks! Everyone should be able to buy a Glock for about $600 US.

That also makes my suggestion on the Kahr almost silly- are Kahr's also very expensive?

Steven being expensive is another thing i believe they are not even available here. I think to give you an idea i would quote the price of Beretta PX4 Storm $5000 and i am willing to buy it if dealer can bring it down to $3500. So now you can see that this Import Ban thing is really hurting general public and all becasue we posses Nuclear capabilities.

Enigmatic Desires
30-07-2009, 01:37 AM
Import ban!?!? That stinks! Everyone should be able to buy a Glock for about $600 US.

That also makes my suggestion on the Kahr almost silly- are Kahr's also very expensive?

Amen to that brother...

But then We have Turkish an Brazilian weapons such as Stoeger an Taurus in the $600 range.. Not to mention excellent Chinese an Serbian offerings at even cheaper rates...

Then there are our own local gunsmiths who can make just bout any gun on God's green earth (No exaggeration).

A good weapon made by a skilled artisan can last a life time. As U can see.. Wajahat's Taurus clone is a dead ringer for the real thing.. in a caliber that U wont find in any real Taurus. all for around $ 220 a piece.

By an large the people being hurt by the ban are American an European manufacturers an exporters..

They could have tapped into such a lucrative market here.

Wajahat
30-07-2009, 01:44 AM
Amen to that!!!

Dr Zakir
30-07-2009, 01:47 AM
a close inspection does give away the clone because although quite good but still clones tell on close inspection although from a distance would be difficult to tell . there was a px storm for 350k in islamabad

Wajahat
30-07-2009, 01:51 AM
Zakir sahab i have noticed that imported weapons are a lot cheapers in both ISB and LHR compared to karachi, i found out a PX storm for 435 K with a private dealer in khi

Enigmatic Desires
30-07-2009, 02:35 AM
I wonder why.. after all the stuff lands in Karachi. then moves on to the rest of the country...

Dr Zakir
30-07-2009, 01:43 PM
not necessarily weapons variety in khi is much more and I think there are many dealers there dealing in rarer stuff here there is only one

Agent47
23-09-2009, 02:43 AM
:) good discussion. Do think about walther p99 and sig mosquito too.

KageFox
23-09-2009, 02:52 AM
Sig Mosquito is a .22LR.... while useful in capable hands, is not viable for defensive carry purposes.

AK47
23-09-2009, 03:03 AM
none the less you should try having a look at the Taurus Model 651 CIA, i have used this personally and let me tell you it had been nothing but sheer pleasure, the Taurus Model 651 Protector is 5 Round 357 Mag, 2" Barrel , and the calibre it self is very powerful, you can get this in a good condition for roughly around 75 k to 80 k and i believe a new one is for 95 k plus
@ Wajahat Bhai, from where is this gun available N.I.B @95k? Could you post some pics plz of this model? 5 shots from this thing with this caliber are more than enough to stiffen any breathing thing, anytime!

Nabeel
23-09-2009, 03:08 AM
PROTECTOR MODEL 651 .357 MAG.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=271&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=PR2

AK47
23-09-2009, 03:24 AM
Thanks, Nabeel, for the quick link!

Silent killerr
23-09-2009, 12:22 PM
Taurus PT809 can be carried in Ankle holster

KageFox
23-09-2009, 07:16 PM
Bro, PT-809 is a pretty big pistol, 8.25" overall length, 17+1 mag. I'd say you'd need to have a LARGE ankle :P

If you are talking about PT-609 or PT-111, that is more understandable.

I agree with previous posts, a snub-nose revolver should not be discounted when concealed carry is being considered.