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Striker1
14-07-2009, 08:35 AM
Check this out.

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=119699136778&h=QMu9B&u=frrXw&ref=nf


Bullet from dropped gun hits woman in bathroom stall
TBO.com

Published: July 9, 2009

This wasn't your everyday way of getting shot, that's for sure.

A Tampa woman was shot in the leg this afternoon while sitting on the toilet in a hotel bathroom. Police said the woman in the next stall accidentally let her handgun slip out of her waist holster, and the weapon discharged when it hit the ground.

The bullet hit 53-year-old Janifer Bliss of Tampa in the lower left leg. She was taken to Tampa General Hospital with what police described as minor injuries.



So which of the firearms that we all have on us .. have been drop tested by the manufacturer. I'm quite sure all foreign and realiable brands have been tested.

Another reason why unrealiable locally made weapons cannt be trusted.

Any comments?

HasanJamshad
14-07-2009, 11:04 AM
Striker 1, this is a very important topic and concern for any firearm owner and enthusiast. Modern gun manufecturing industry is quite aware of this and has devised many state of the art triggers, hammers, firing pin blocks, strikers to get rid of an unwnted accidental firing, either by gun drop or by slip of hammer. All modern gun manufecturers put their arms to different tests and gun drop test is a must. Let me explain few safety features regarding our topic that are a regular part of all reputable modern guns.

FIRING PIN BLOCK:

All modern reputable handguns have this feature. When gun is loaded firing pin is blocked by a plate, bar or another pin so firing pin cannot hit the primer unless the trigger is pulled. This firing pin block acts like the shutter of a camera and gives way to the pin when it is needed.

HALF COCKED STRIKER:

This is a modern feature popularised by the GLOCK although we find this feature on other guns aswel. In this action there is no hammer to hit the primer through firing pin rather firing pin is striked by a tension spring. This spring does not get fully cocked by loading the pistol rather get half cocked. It gets fully cocked when trigger is pulled. So, there is no question of firing by the drop of gun as firing pin does not have the required energy to ignite the primer. This is the reason why GLOCK and SIGMA have heavy triggers.

TRIGGER BLOCKS:

Mostly guns come with different type of blocks those prevent trigger to get slipped unless hand gun is properly held in the hand and trigger is pulled. In all 1911's there is a trigger lock at the back of the grip just under the hammer guard, this lock prevents the pull of the trigger unless this guard is pressed by the palm of the shooter. This guard is pressed by the shooter's palm when shooter holds the gun in his/her natural grip. Other guns like GLOCK come with a towpart trigger that serves the same purpose but in a different way.

DECOCKER:

These guns come with a decocker that just drop the hammer without hitting the firing pin so gun can be carried chambered but with dropped hammer leaving any chance for firing by the dropping of the gun.

So, there are many safety features available to prevent any accident, and combination of these features on almost all reputable guns make them pretty safe but there is no safety that can sbstitute the safety of the unchambered gun in the hands of a careful shooter.

Adeel Ahmad
14-07-2009, 11:35 AM
Well they have given every detail about the incident but they have not mentioned the brand of Pistol or Revolver which was used. I dont think that there is any issue with any of the First Tier brands. I do carry a Glock 26 and i have never thought about this scenario. If you go through the whole thread below you can clearly read that if right circumstances were given, even a Glock can fire while dropped.

After far too long a time it has dawned on me that the mistake in this thread has been to consider the "trigger" safety in isolation. We should have considered the safeties of the Glock as a system.

First, the Glock is intended to fire if you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber. The weight and length of trigger pull adds a small margin of safety against a "twitch" of the trigger finger but not much in comparison to a cocked and unlocked 1911. It has no where near the margin of a revolver in double action mode. If your finger is on the trigger when you are startled enough you are very likely to pull the trigger hard enough to fire the piece. To this extent, as many keep saying, the primary safety is between your ears. Handle the gun sensibly and you won't have a negligent discharge.

Second, with the negligible exception of protecting against a push or pull against the side front of the trigger, all proper Glock safeties guard against drops, but not always as you might think.

A drop of a solid object onto a solid surface can produce remarkably high G forces. A drop where the pistol lands on the top of its slide could easily unsafe the firing pin safety as its inertia would easily overcome the spring loading. Fortunately the same G forces would push the trigger bar upwards, relative to the normal orientation of the pistol, and push it more firmly into engagement with the firing pin. So that is a safe drop orientation.

The most serious risk is from a drop onto the tail of the slide. Here the full mass of the trigger and trigger bar will be pushed back. If the impact is large enough then, without the trigger safety, this force could, in principle, push the trigger bar back far enough to act as though the trigger had been pulled. That is, it would disengage the firing pin safety, further cock the firing pin against its spring, cam the trigger bar down against the connector/disconnector and fire the pistol. The trigger safety stops this from happening because it is in neutral balance against this force and its spring holds it in place unless the pistol is spinning very rapidly, as in the infamous Frisbee test.

Lastly we have the simply named drop safety. This provides a guide for the cruciform of the trigger bar which prevents it moving downwards until the trigger is pulled most of the way back. Ostensibly this guards against an upward impact on the but of the pistol forcing the trigger bar down and releasing the partly cocked firing pin. What would happen if it did? The gun would not fire because the firing pin would be blocked by the firing pin safety which would be held more strongly in its safe position by this direction of impact.

So what is the drop safety for? It protects you from the circumstance where you drop your Glock, perhaps in the course of a fight, then pick it up and try to shoot. Without the drop safety the result might not even be a click because the firing pin would have been disengaged from the trigger bar cruciform by the drop. That is, the firing pin would be fully forward against the firing pin safety. If it is not partially cocked it will not fire! So the drop safety protects you from the gun not firing when you need it to fire rather than from firing when it shouldn't fire.

It should be clear from this that the PRIMARY mechanical safety of the Glock against accidental discharge when the gun is dropped is the trigger safety.

There is no safety against it being fired once it is in your hand with your finger on the trigger and nor should there be.

There is no safety worthy of the name against discharge when something other than your trigger finger snags the trigger and pulls it back. This is actually a major failing of what is an ingenious piece of engineering.

All mechanical systems can fail and in this case we are trusting a lot to a small engagement of two pieces of cheap molded plastic. Apart from that the firing pin safety can get stuck in the up position if it gets too dirty, the firing pin/cruciform engagement can be insecure if it has been modified and/or damaged so that there is a very small engagement but this combination would also probably need a soft primer to fire.

For what it is worth, I do not believe that any pistol design solves the re:holstering/snagging problem in a reasonably fail safe manor. A manual or thumb safety will do so provided you remember to put it on safe every time you holster. The psychological fact is that the time you are least likely to do this is in the immediate aftermath of combat. This is also the time when you are most likely to be clumsy as you re-holster.


So, there are many options available to prevent any accident. But there is no safety that can sbstitute the safety of the unchambered gun.
I dont agree with you on this point at least for your carry weapon as if ever you have to defend yourself then you hardly get time to get it out let alone chamber a bullet and fire it.

KageFox
14-07-2009, 12:45 PM
Storage of guns unchambered is wise. However, carry... lets just say that even if the bullet was halfway down the barrel, it would not be sufficiently quick.

My advice: for self-defence, carry fully loaded guns, with safety on if you like. Choosing the proper means to carry is also very important as it safeguards against accidental discharges.

There's little you can do about a dropped gun, except make sure that it DOES NOT DROP AT ALL! The more popular brands have gone through strenuous torture tests and stuff, BUT... who ever said that safeties were foolproof???

Unfortunately, there are guns out there which are absolutely not safe to be carried chambered.

Btw, is a TT safe if carried in Condition 2, i.e. chambered, hammer down? This question has been at the back of my mind for ages...

HasanJamshad
14-07-2009, 12:47 PM
@ Adeel Ahmed, i fully agree with you as in case of being attacked or ambushed the element of surprise makes almost impossible for the deffender to use any weapon. Anyhow, every person has a right to have one's own strategy to deal with any such contigency(God forbid if it arises). My prefference will be to deal with such contigency and at the same time to avoid any accident that can involve my loved one's(God forbid). I would recomend to all my friends who want to remain upto that level of prepration and security to evaluate the possibility of carrying a DA revolver instead of a pistol. That will give them ready to fire gun by them and a higher level of safety at the same time.
Anyway, this is my opinion :).

Adeel Ahmad
14-07-2009, 02:47 PM
Hassan i was not criticizing your opinion at all and i totally agree with it. I just mentioned the fact that there might not be enough time if any such situation arises.

Adeel Ahmad
14-07-2009, 02:49 PM
I dont think that many of the members are going to read the lengthy posts by Hassan or me, but in my opinion it clearly answers a lot of questions which might rise about dropping a gun. If it can happen to a Glock then KageFox it certainly can happen to a TT.

KageFox
14-07-2009, 02:56 PM
@Adeel: Sir, my question wasn't about dropping the gun; I read somewhere that a TT can go off, even if the hammer is down and is bumped slightly.

Btw, I did read the "lengthy" posts. Good info :)

Conceal Carry
14-07-2009, 10:15 PM
@Adeel: Sir, my question wasn't about dropping the gun; I read somewhere that a TT can go off, even if the hammer is down and is bumped slightly.

Btw, I did read the "lengthy" posts. Good info :)

You are absolutely right, a TT is not designed to be carried loaded. It is very unsafe to do so.

Adeel Ahmad
15-07-2009, 02:25 PM
KageFox i misunderstood as the thread was going on about dropping a weapon. I would second CC here that its unsafe to carry a TT loaded.

KageFox
15-07-2009, 04:08 PM
no problem bro :)

I was just thinking: how can a regular gun owner do a drop test safely, without risk? Or should we just take the manufacturers' word that the gun is "drop-proof"? As we all know, even the best of guns can turn ugly at times...

Adeel Ahmad
16-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Yes safety should always come first.

Conceal Carry
17-07-2009, 12:25 AM
no problem bro :)

I was just thinking: how can a regular gun owner do a drop test safely, without risk? Or should we just take the manufacturers' word that the gun is "drop-proof"? As we all know, even the best of guns can turn ugly at times...

Yes! it can be done safely, but only by professionals in facilities especially designed for the purpose. the procedure is described below.

NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.

The procedure is described for information purpose only, all readers are advised not to try this at home or any where else. I take no responsibility if anyone gets hurt or sustains losses of any nature if he chooses to experiment despit my warning.

Drop test is done on cartridges with live primers only, the bullet (projectle) and powder charge is removed from the casing. the round (only the casing with primer without the bullet and powder charge) is then loaded and the gun is made to deop (controlled drop) on it's hammer from various heights. After every drop the casing is checked for any pin marks on the primer.

Taurus
18-07-2009, 07:40 PM
i think we should never keep a firearm loaded i think the lady had the firearm loaded so that was the reason nothing else

Conceal Carry
20-07-2009, 12:25 AM
i think we should never keep a firearm loaded i think the lady had the firearm loaded so that was the reason nothing else

+1. Dropping a loaded gun is always risky and should be avoided.

Striker1
20-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Drop Test 101!

The point is not carrying the gun chambered. Are the weapons in circulation been "DROP TESTED" by the manufacturer. It can even slip out of ones hand while at the range! I'm sure most know that sweat & greesy palms could be one of the major reasons for such an incident to take place even at the range, when conditions are ideal!

Also I've noticed that many also keep their weapon oiled to the extent that it slips onto the grip and other areas around the weapon that could lead to a "SLIP" and an ultimate DROP"

This is another reason why 'ONLY WEAPONS THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH RIGOUROUS TESTS" SHOULD BE USED.

Skeeter60
18-08-2009, 07:12 PM
Dropped Guns

Only those hand guns are safe when dropped, are the ones with FIRING PIN BLOCKS.
these are

All GLOCKS
Berretta 92 f, FS
Walther P99 100 etc not PPK
Sigs 228,226 family
H&K all models
Colt 1911 series 80 only not 70
CZ 75 B but not CZ 75

None of the TTS none of the MAKAROVs
Just a few examples of popular guns please,

KageFox
18-08-2009, 07:16 PM
What about the Taurus? And the Norinco Clones? Any idea???

Adeel Ahmad
18-08-2009, 07:22 PM
Dropping any kind of Gun is not good. I mean i would not want any kind of Scratches on my Glock even if it does not fire.
Ones without Firing Pin Block should not be dropped at all.

Enigmatic Desires
21-08-2009, 03:47 AM
Do the Tauruses and the cougars of the world come equipped with firing pin blocks?

Shahzeb
17-08-2010, 12:54 AM
Do the Tauruses and the cougars of the world come equipped with firing pin blocks?

The taurus does come with a trigger block (i mean most if not all models-e.g the 24/7 pro, 809,etc do) and as for the cougar, i think it functions on the same principle as the beretta 92FS (which i have owned for a couple of years and have lots of experience with) is a very safe gun so..no worries! i also have the 24/7 pro in 9mm...good gun

Huntsman
28-08-2010, 01:22 PM
Maestros, can any one help me. My clone S&W fell on the floor and the Safety lever just broke. Are the guns tested in this aspect too, as in my openion, falling guns from hands is obvious, at least once in a life.

Do you recommend guns wihtout external safety levers. Please counsle me on this subjct as I am very depressed by this incident. Although it is repaired by a local workshop, but I am not happy with the results as when the safety is off sometimes it blocks and convers the firing pin. please do let me know what to do. should I now replace this weapon?

A.Abbas
28-08-2010, 08:14 PM
Maestros, can any one help me. My clone S&W fell on the floor and the Safety lever just broke. Are the guns tested in this aspect too, as in my openion, falling guns from hands is obvious, at least once in a life.

Do you recommend guns wihtout external safety levers. Please counsle me on this subjct as I am very depressed by this incident. Although it is repaired by a local workshop, but I am not happy with the results as when the safety is off sometimes it blocks and convers the firing pin. please do let me know what to do. should I now replace this weapon?

Which model of S&W clone do you have and made by which factory NFAC, Kyber arms or some one else, if you can post the pictures I might be able to help as I owned and experimented a lot on it.

Huntsman
14-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Dear Abbas Bhai, First of all Eid Mubarak to you and then thank you for considering the matter.

I have attached pictures of my S&W Clone. I think it is 645 and the maufacturer is unknown to me. May be you can help on this. I will be anxiously waiting for your reply.

Kind Regards

http://s2.postimage.org/MBX2i.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsMBX2i)

http://s3.postimage.org/j9BE9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pqj9BE9)

http://s3.postimage.org/j9GDr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pqj9GDr)

http://s3.postimage.org/j9LCJ.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pqj9LCJ)