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View Full Version : Difference between 9mm pistol and 9mm rifle ammo



Arsenal763
14-06-2009, 07:31 PM
Dear all.. i think there is a difference between 9mm pistol and 9mm rifle (mp5) ammo.. coz.. when i used POF made 9mm bullets in my pistol, its creating probelem (not ejecting the shell, jamming etc.).. on a query from a local shop, that guy tell me about this.. when i used NORINCO and Russian ammo, pistol firing well without any jamming..

You all are requested to please tell me that is it true that there is a difference between 9mm pistol and rifle ammo?? Hope you will answer

KageFox
14-06-2009, 08:36 PM
Sir, which pistol were you using? The MP5 and various other pistols use the same 9mm caliber round, known as the 9x19mm Parabellum. Most probably, the problem stems from a combination of hard primers in POF ammo and the pistol's inability to strike the primer hard enough.

Just for your convenience, the MP5, CF-98, Stoeger Cougar all fire the same 9mm bullet.

Mohammad
14-06-2009, 10:06 PM
@ arsenal
POF makes two types of 9mm ammunition... one is i think 9mm 1z for pistols and the other is 2z for MP5s. the mp5s 9mm has more propellent than pistols one

Ka_Khan
14-06-2009, 10:26 PM
Muhammad is right.POF make two types in 9mm.One for normal handguns and other for Rapid use in MP.

Shariq
15-06-2009, 01:35 AM
Mk-1 for pistols
Mk-2 for SMG
Plz don't use Mk-2 in your pistol.

POF ammo usually never gives problem. Plz check whether you have original POF or desi reloads of POF shells.

Enigmatic Desires
29-06-2009, 07:50 PM
SMG rounds are usualy not reccomanded for pistols

Nabeel
29-06-2009, 08:22 PM
Mk 2 is a +p round i think

Ka_Khan
29-06-2009, 11:57 PM
Yes you are right.

Dr Zakir
30-06-2009, 12:29 AM
yes but works very well in glock

Enigmatic Desires
30-06-2009, 12:53 AM
A glock is a glock is a glock :)

MHMalik
03-07-2009, 02:54 AM
SMG rounds are usualy not reccomanded for pistols


Unless its a H&K :D

Enigmatic Desires
07-07-2009, 03:59 PM
SMG rounds are usualy not reccomanded for pistols


Unless its a H&K :D


U mena the H&K MP(machine pistol) 5 SMG?

Adeel Ahmad
08-07-2009, 02:05 PM
@ED
I think he means a regular H&K Pistol.

eminentpk
13-07-2009, 06:42 PM
I always prefer Norinco over POF just for the same reason that sometimes POF rounds misbehave.

MIdreesTaj
19-07-2009, 12:45 PM
ive been using MK IIZ, the hotter version of POF 9mm in my 2 of my local made 92FS and local made SIG p226 copy. never had a problem. longest run i rem was in one of my local beretta and that was 60 POF MK IIZ rounds in under 15 minutes.. no problems at all..

Enigmatic Desires
19-07-2009, 04:28 PM
ive been using MK IIZ, the hotter version of POF 9mm in my 2 of my local made 92FS and local made SIG p226 copy. never had a problem. longest run i rem was in one of my local beretta and that was 60 POF MK IIZ rounds in under 15 minutes.. no problems at all..


WOW which make of clone do u have sir?

MHMalik
19-07-2009, 07:09 PM
SMG rounds are usualy not reccomanded for pistols


Unless its a H&K :D


U mena the H&K MP(machine pistol) 5 SMG?


No sir, I meant the garden variety handguns. They can take +P+ all day and sing while they're at it.

MIdreesTaj
19-07-2009, 07:55 PM
@Enigmatic Desires
bro it is Khyber ARms 92FS clone.. but i dont consider round count of 60 as something to verify the weapon's strength. I think it should take those PII-Z ammo and not complain bcuz what are +P and +P+ are doing in pistol arena?

Enigmatic Desires
19-07-2009, 07:58 PM
+ P is pretty hot fodder for any hand gun.. but +P+ on a local weapon.. Well if it handles it wiht aplomb.. Then all I can say..is that i am goin to get a Khyber arms 92F clone myself..

MIdreesTaj
19-07-2009, 07:58 PM
Does anyone know grainage of POF 9mm ammo? mk2 or mk1? bcuz as compared to norinco which i heard is 124 grain in FMJ config.. POF ammo seems to hit harder than norinco.. on solid objects mostly...

Skeeter60
05-08-2009, 11:57 AM
MK1Z and Mk2Z
Please go ahead and shoot both in any pistol safely. The basic principle in infantry ammo is commonality or the ability to use the ammo of the same caliber in the different weapons. The Rifle ammo can be used in the LMG and MMG and vise versa.
The MP is Machine Pistol not a rifle.
Previously the army used to have 9mm sten guns and 2nd WW vintage pistols and the MK1Z was recommended for those.
Any modern pistol will safely fire both the Zs so do not worry I did that for decades in several of my coveted pistols with no ill effect. I regularly shoot the 2Z

chudary
25-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Very rightly said by skeeter60,POF 2z has never given me any problems while shooting from handguns.:)

Gilani
26-12-2009, 06:22 PM
MK1Z and Mk2Z
Please go ahead and shoot both in any pistol safely. The basic principle in infantry ammo is commonality or the ability to use the ammo of the same caliber in the different weapons. The Rifle ammo can be used in the LMG and MMG and vise versa.
The MP is Machine Pistol not a rifle.
Previously the army used to have 9mm sten guns and 2nd WW vintage pistols and the MK1Z was recommended for those.
Any modern pistol will safely fire both the Zs so do not worry I did that for decades in several of my coveted pistols with no ill effect. I regularly shoot the 2Z

Thanks a lot Sir, this clarifies many a doubts. I have also fired more than a thousand bullets of MK2Z with my CF98 and a friend of mine has fired around 6000 2Z with his CF98. No problems faced and both guns are absolutely fine. However, some of my friends have been facing lot of problems in firing 2Z from Taurus 24/7, millennium etc though. May be we should avoid firing 2Z from Taurus.

regards

Taurus
27-12-2009, 03:26 PM
Skeeter Sahab:-Is there any specific reason pof is making mk1 and mk2..i have found a slight difference in the bullet size

RFR
27-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Pistols / revolvers of all types are long gone from Pak Army, therefore the ammo which POF produce is mainly for 9 x 19 mm MP5A2/A3, the only 9 mm wpn which army is using currently. Special Forces do have a variety in 9 mm weapons but mostly POF made ammo is not used in those weapons. The 9 x 19 mm Mk1 and 2 which we people get from market is actually the ammo manufactured for SMC (Sub Machine Carbines) long gone obsolete which is not recommended in Pistols due to high grainage value especially in clones / low quality weapons. Yes if you can get 9 x 19 mm Parabellum (POF) made for pistols then it can be fired safely from any fairly reliable pistol.:cool:
For the info of all; please avoid using high pressure cartridges from normal quality pistols as they take away life of your weapon due to excessive chamber pressure and may result into some accident as well.:)

RFR
27-12-2009, 06:49 PM
Taurus Query; There can be no difference in size of MK1 And MK2 9 x 19 mm POF manufacture as POF strictly follows QC as far as metallurgy is concerned. however as the rounds are made for military purpose only which is entirely different from civilian use (Self defence or hunting) therefore the grainage value from round to round may not be precise as it is not MATCH GRADE ammo. Yet the size of rounds of two same calibres may not be different. As far as 9 x 19 mm Mk1 &2 are concerned both have just Cap (primer) composition difference. By the way both are SMC rounds.....................;

Taurus
27-12-2009, 07:14 PM
thats what the difference i was talking abt i wasnt talking abt the size

RFR
27-12-2009, 08:55 PM
@ Taurus
Skeeter Sahab:-Is there any specific reason pof is making mk1 and mk2..i have found a slight difference in the bullet size
Still you got your answer Buddy:D

Gilani
27-12-2009, 10:43 PM
Pistols / revolvers of all types are long gone from Pak Army, therefore the ammo which POF produce is mainly for 9 x 19 mm MP5A2/A3, the only 9 mm wpn which army is using currently. Special Forces do have a variety in 9 mm weapons but mostly POF made ammo is not used in those weapons. The 9 x 19 mm Mk1 and 2 which we people get from market is actually the ammo manufactured for SMC (Sub Machine Carbines) long gone obsolete which is not recommended in Pistols due to high grainage value especially in clones / low quality weapons. Yes if you can get 9 x 19 mm Parabellum (POF) made for pistols then it can be fired safely from any fairly reliable pistol.:cool:
For the info of all; please avoid using high pressure cartridges from normal quality pistols as they take away life of your weapon due to excessive chamber pressure and may result into some accident as well.:)

@ RFR
Though a good number of Walthers have been phased out but still a limited number is in use. The ammo used for Walther is 9mm 1Z which has a muzzle velocity of 341 m/s and mean cart weight of 12.56 grams. For MP5 A2/3, cartridges used are 9mm 2Z which has a muzzle velocity of 395 m/s and mean cartridge weight of 12.57 grams (I doubt the weight of cartridges but this is what is given in POF website). Both cartridges, however, are technically 9x19 mm Parabellum and have identical dimensions.

As for firing 2Z ammo from pistols, I fully agree with you that unless it is known that a pistol can take +p ammo, 2Z ammo should not be fired from it. However, Skeeter60 sahib has mentioned firing of 2Z ammo for over a decade from Glocks, Sigs and CZ 75B without any problem. As already mentioned, a friend of mine has fired more than 6000 2Z rounds with his CF98 and his pistol is still quite accurate with no visible wear and tear to the barrel or drop in muzzle velocity. Another friend of mine has fired more than 2000 2Z rounds from his Llama M82 with no problems at all. On the other hand, some of my friends had problems in firing 2Z from Taurus 24/7 and we discontinued firing 2Z with Taurus immediately. That is why I wanted to ask Skeeter60 Sahib that which pistols can safely take a sustained diet of 2Z (+P) ammo.
regards

A.Abbas
27-12-2009, 10:49 PM
I think P1 1Z load is 115 grain and 2Z is 125 grain

Taurus
27-12-2009, 10:55 PM
well RFR u didnt get what i meant in the bullet size maybe i wrote it in a hurry but i meant the same the thing which u described

Gilani
27-12-2009, 10:55 PM
I think P1 1Z load is 115 grain and 2Z is 125 grain

Correct. This is what I also knew but POF website describes 1Z weight as 12.56 grams which is equal to 193.83 grains and 2Z weight as 12.57 grams which equals 193.98 grains. Seems to be an error.

A.Abbas
28-12-2009, 01:15 AM
I think P1 1Z load is 115 grain and 2Z is 125 grain

Correct. This is what I also knew but POF website describes 1Z weight as 12.56 grams which is equal to 193.83 grains and 2Z weight as 12.57 grams which equals 193.98 grains. Seems to be an error.

You are right the mean weight of the cartridge shown on the POF site is confusing, here is reference link which have the detailed information of 9x19 cartridge standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

MHMalik
28-12-2009, 04:44 AM
Interesting observations..

I blame POF for incorrectly/vaguely naming their ammo and not providing specs and causing so much confusion..

Also some are marked MK IIZ and some are marked 2Z which further adds to head scratching..

As far as I know, 1Z is pretty much safe in all handguns.. and 2Z is safe in all those approved for +P

But regularly shooting +P will cause RELATIVELY more wear OVER TIME...

Most decently made handguns are approved for +P ammo.. so shouldnt be a concern for most of us.

MIdreesTaj
28-12-2009, 11:18 AM
I think P1 1Z load is 115 grain and 2Z is 125 grain

Correct. This is what I also knew but POF website describes 1Z weight as 12.56 grams which is equal to 193.83 grains and 2Z weight as 12.57 grams which equals 193.98 grains. Seems to be an error.

You are right the mean weight of the cartridge shown on the POF site is confusing, here is reference link which have the detailed information of 9x19 cartridge standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

how can one deduce the bullet weight differences of 1z and 2z only by knowing the mean cartridge weight in both cases. 193.xx grain is the total weight of cartridge that includes casing, primer, powder charge and projectile. The only way to give solid comment is to weigh them on scale. As per former discussions on Mk2Z, senior reloaders have commented it 115 grain bullet.
However there is another way to check, but that only gives a vague idea.. heavier 9mm projectiles tend to be longer than lighter projectiles or in other words they have visial differences in their Bullet Ogives. As far as my own observation is concerned, regarding 1z and 2z, there aren't any such visial differences.
Power wise, mk2z rates at 1225fps average, out of a g19's 4 inch barrel (as chronographed by Skeeter sahib). It rates it among mid level +p round.

Tipu Sultan
29-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Does anybody know of 9.2*63 mm calibered big game hunting rifle. Is such a rifle available in Pakistan in either foreign or local made or in both versions?

Gilani
31-12-2009, 09:09 PM
Correct. This is what I also knew but POF website describes 1Z weight as 12.56 grams which is equal to 193.83 grains and 2Z weight as 12.57 grams which equals 193.98 grains. Seems to be an error.

You are right the mean weight of the cartridge shown on the POF site is confusing, here is reference link which have the detailed information of 9x19 cartridge standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum

how can one deduce the bullet weight differences of 1z and 2z only by knowing the mean cartridge weight in both cases. 193.xx grain is the total weight of cartridge that includes casing, primer, powder charge and projectile. The only way to give solid comment is to weigh them on scale. As per former discussions on Mk2Z, senior reloaders have commented it 115 grain bullet.
However there is another way to check, but that only gives a vague idea.. heavier 9mm projectiles tend to be longer than lighter projectiles or in other words they have visial differences in their Bullet Ogives. As far as my own observation is concerned, regarding 1z and 2z, there aren't any such visial differences.
Power wise, mk2z rates at 1225fps average, out of a g19's 4 inch barrel (as chronographed by Skeeter sahib). It rates it among mid level +p round.

Thanks for the correction Idrees Sahib.
115 grains or 7.45 grams and 124 grains or 8.04 grams is the bullet weight of POF 1Z & 2Z respectively and not the mean cartridge weight. Thanks for pointing out.

RFR
31-12-2009, 11:29 PM
@ Gillani Sb; I have contacted POF and we will get the queries settled in a day or so...........:)

A.Abbas
31-12-2009, 11:33 PM
@ Gillani Sb; I have contacted POF and we will get the queries settled in a day or so...........:)

Did they told what do the specifications on POF site mean, or just another typing mistake ;)

Gilani
01-01-2010, 05:42 PM
@ Gillani Sb; I have contacted POF and we will get the queries settled in a day or so...........:)

Thanks RFR Sb, but I think POF needs to do some meticulous working on their website. Its kind of quite ordinary at the moment :)

Skeeter60
01-01-2010, 06:48 PM
Does anybody know of 9.2*63 mm calibered big game hunting rifle. Is such a rifle available in Pakistan in either foreign or local made or in both versions?

Tipu Sahab the most popular German, dangerous game cartridge in Africa is the 9.3x 64 Brenneke which is comparable with the 375 H&H Magnum, although the 375 has advantage of bullet weight and diameter.

The other cartridge is 9.3x62 Mauser again very popular in Africa in German Rifles, the main advantage of both these cartridges is that these are adapted in rifles with Medium length actions offering lighter and better balanced Rifles.
The 375 H&H can only be fired from long action lengths.
Rifles and ammo of 9.3x62 are available as one comes across these now and then.

The 9 x 63 is currently Obsolete, it was the same case length as the 30-06.

There is no mention of a 9.2 x 63 I think this is an erroneous quote

Sohail
02-01-2010, 02:24 PM
well i dont think there is need to have different rounds for rifle, i have experienced the same rounds (chinese) with pistol and rifle both, no issue.

regards

Tipu Sultan
06-01-2010, 02:18 AM
@Skeeter 60, Thanks for the information bro. And yes that was a typing mistake the one I was refering is actually 9.3*62 mm caliber. This is definitely a big game cartridge with immense stopping power. I wonder what kind of options we have here when it comes to its rifles and ammo choices and availability. BTW if anybody knows of any dealer who stocks variety in rifle calibers and their respective ammos in lahore?
Also if higher calibers such as 9.3*62mm can be registered on rifle licenses prior to year 2000, 1999 or not? Was it considered npb then?

Mangloo Ramzani
23-01-2010, 06:29 PM
Thanks a lot Sir, this clarifies many a doubts. I have also fired more than a thousand bullets of MK2Z with my CF98 and a friend of mine has fired around 6000 2Z with his CF98. No problems faced and both guns are absolutely fine. However, some of my friends have been facing lot of problems in firing 2Z from Taurus 24/7, millennium etc though. May be we should avoid firing 2Z from Taurus.

regards

+1 @ Gilani Sb

Tried 2Zs from Taurus 24/7, had '6' malfunctions out of 30 rounds! Just to name a few, the slide didnt go all the way forward, FTF and FTE. One of the misfired rounds had the impression of the firing pin, but i guess the pin didnt hit it hard enough!

It did not have any issues with the the chinese ammo I had (311, 09).


Verdict: The 24/7 is very unforgiving, when it comes to ammo type.

wittycranium
23-01-2010, 11:31 PM
A glock is a glock is a glock :)

+1